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Old 2009-07-22, 21:44   Link #1261
Kirbyeggs
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I think that Rey turning all evil was done a bit too fast, they should have given hints for his hatred of Kira, They kinda of rushed it, and i guess they wanted to show that Rau's, ideals will still exist. Since Rau is the one who gave the n jammer canceler data to the EA.
they should have showed Rey's true character a little earlier I personally think.
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Old 2009-07-22, 22:18   Link #1262
Aquaman OS
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Durandal wasn't evil parsay. He just had little to no faith in humanity and seemed to see most people as statistics. His idea was basically that if a greater amount of humanity was guarenteed to survive and be happy with the Destiny Plan than that was the only way to do things and he would accept nothing else. He didn't want them to think for themselves only to listen to him, and he used Logos as a target for everyones blame so they'd warm up to him. He also manipulated media and lied to people, and manipulated feelings especially Shinn's.

He also was premptive and attacked people unjustified in the event that they could be a problem like framing Athrun when he doubted him, and sending assassins after Lacus and Kira just because they might present a threat. In fact some people think that Durandal masterminded the entire war by sneaking PP into the Plant in ep 1 and arranging the Junius drop so he could eliminate Logos because he personally didn't believe the peace would last. That personally might be a bit extreme, but Durandal is clearly up to something the entire series and has some plan unfolding, as nothing ever surprises him and he's always got this "just as planned" smirk on everything goes his way.

Lacus and Kira on the other hand want people to think for themselves. In Lacus's speech against Durandal she basically tells people that rather than blaming Logos for all the problems of the world and washing their hands of it, they should look within themselves to fix things and not to just blindly obey everything Durandal says.
They only went to war with Durandal because he was going to kill many many people to enforce the Destiny Plan (as Durandal outright says anyone who is against the DP is an enemy of mankind) and/or force people to accept it who do not want to.

The reason nobody learned anything from the first series is because everything about the war was covered up and as far as people knew the two sides just laughed the war off and came to peace. They weren't told that both sides nearly genocided the other into oblivion or that a rogue faction was the one that were the real heroes. This is evident because nobody seemes to know that Athrun left Zaft in the first war and nobody seems aware that the Clyne Faction is a seperate force. Everyone thinks that Freedom AA and Eternal were fighting for Zaft last war. If they really knew that the CF were the only people in the last war that had their heads on straight they would have taken them more seriously.

Since Lacus is now leading Zaft (and no, she did not intentionally try to seize power for evil purposes) I can only assume she won't make that mistake and will come clean with everyone.
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Old 2009-07-22, 23:10   Link #1263
Counterattack
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I agreeee. I'm watching it now, and I'm at episode 13 or something(therefore not reading the comments above, spoilers are not gooood). Shinn really sucks. I hate his guts. But why does Destiny fail? Because there was never supposed to be a Gundam SEED Destiny. Destiny should have never been made. Maybe I'm judging too quickly, but SEED itself was much better, and even SEED wasn't all that awesome.
Destiny really screwed up everything that had happened before, deaths in vain and stuff. I'm really wondering who in the world would let an 18-year-old rule over a country? I feel really sorry for Cagalli.
I'm still gonna be watching it to the end though.
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Old 2009-07-22, 23:24   Link #1264
4Tran
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Originally Posted by wingdarkness View Post
Because the anime itself is so mired with execution problems, from script, to dialogue, to battle choreography (Like you said earlier “tactics”—I know exactly what you mean with this correct wording), to pace, to etc., it’s hard to get a person to change their case when the anime doesn’t provide everything that is needed to do so…So while it’s decently clear that Dully is behind Lacus’ assassination attempt, there’s also enough lacking evidence for someone to not 100% accept that conclusion…
First off, I don't think that a work having some ambiguity in a few story elements is necessarily bad storytelling. Next, I don't know why a matter of 100% agreement with any point is all that important. As it stands, the arguments against Durandal being the guilty party are few and weak, thereby leading to a rather obvious conclusion.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
1) The main protagonist of the first half of the anime shifts into the main (combat) antagonist for the second half of the anime. Shinn didn't just get put into a second billing position - he made (from the plot's perspective) a moral alignment shift from main protagonist to very important antagonist. This is a shift that I've never seen done before to the extent that Destiny did it - and, ultimately, the shift was just too jarring for many people I think - it certainly was for me.
That really isn't true. I think of Durandal as the protagonist and Lacus as the antagonist, but even if you think of Shinn as the protagonist at the beginning, he would remain so at the very end. What the difference is is that Kira in this case doesn't actually become the antagonist - in fact, there wouldn't be any antagonist role. At no point though, is Kira ever the protagonist; he's too badly overshadowed in such a role by both Cagalli and Lacus.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
2) The failed to sell Dullindal as the great horrible villain that had to be stopped no matter what. I get what GSD was trying to do - they were trying to make Dullindal and his Destiny Plan seem like Orwell's Big Brother. GSD simply failed to make Dullindal and his Destiny Plan seem like anywhere near that dire or menacing, largely since the Destiny Plan wasn't fleshed out much, and when it was fleshed out, Dullindal presented it like it was some sort of cheerful cartoony communism only with genetic manipulation thrown in (genetic manipulation not much unlike what the coordinators had already been doing for ages now).
There's an in-universe why Durandal never fleshed out the Destiny Plan; it's because he never thought that it would sell if he just gave its pros and cons. And so he created two instruments to bring it in with a modicum of popular support: the first was to give it a public face that was much more appealing than his own - Meer nee Lacus, and the second was to create a war that he could pin on an culpable group. His initial plan was to drop the Destiny Plan on a weary populace and sugarcoat it enough that it could come to pass. Lacus ruined all of this and his plan B was nowhere nearly as effective.

As for failing to make the Destiny Plan as menacing as they should have, I'd agree on that. While I don't think that it's strictly necessary to make the villain's grand scheme look evil as possible, it really should been addressed better. I would count this as a real failing of Destiny. Even as is, I still think that it's quite interesting.

You're making a bit of a mistake though when it comes to motivation: the three main characters on the Orb side: Cagalli, Kira and Lacus; all had different reasons for fighting against Durandal, and their points of view shouldn't be conflated. Lacus, for example, didn't need any special for opposing him - she already knew that he was her enemy as soon as the assassins attacked. Moreover, she didn't really approve of Cagalli's tactics - and so she rebuilt her own power base.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I honestly felt badly for Dullindal in the end - I even felt a little bit badly for Shinn, as Dullindal was practically Shinn's hero near the end.

So... either they made a mistake in trying to make Dullindal/Shinn the main antagonists in the end, or they simply didn't do a good enough job of making them seem actually villainous.
While Durandal was a villain, he wasn't supposed to be one of the snarling, scenery-chewing variety. Instead, he was the well-intentioned idealist who was utterly ruthless in pursuing his goals. Shinn, on the other hand, never qualifies as a villain.

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It was painfully predictable, for several episodes before the conclusion, that Dullindal would be going down and going down hard at the hands of Kira and Lacus. That predictability makes Dullindal the classic antagonist - i.e. destined to lose.
Aren't all Gundam conclusions rather predictable?

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Originally Posted by Aquaman OS View Post
He also was premptive and attacked people unjustified in the event that they could be a problem like framing Athrun when he doubted him, and sending assassins after Lacus and Kira just because they might present a threat. In fact some people think that Durandal masterminded the entire war by sneaking PP into the Plant in ep 1 and arranging the Junius drop so he could eliminate Logos because he personally didn't believe the peace would last. That personally might be a bit extreme, but Durandal is clearly up to something the entire series and has some plan unfolding, as nothing ever surprises him and he's always got this "just as planned" smirk on everything goes his way.
Durandal was pretty much the mastermind who initiated the Cosmic Era 74 war. While it obviously would have started even without him, the timing of it only benefited PLANT in general, and Durandal's plans in specific.

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The reason nobody learned anything from the first series is because everything about the war was covered up and as far as people knew the two sides just laughed the war off and came to peace.
Not quite. The reasons why nobody learned anything from the first war were that people just don't learn from wars in general, and that the first war never really ended; it was just given a pause as both sides were to exhausted to continue. As soon as the peace settlements were signed, both sides (and Orb) went ahead to rearm as fast as possible. As a note, this is why the Junius weapons limitation treaty is so meaningless - nobody gave a damn about upholding the spirit of the negotiation.

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Since Lacus is now leading Zaft (and no, she did not intentionally try to seize power for evil purposes) I can only assume she won't make that mistake and will come clean with everyone.
That's really hard to say. Lacus is perhaps the hardest to read of all the characters in the Gundam shows so it's really hard to tell exactly what she'll end up doing. Moreover, there are serious challenges to her authority as there are old factions that strongly oppose her, and these factions still enjoy a modicum of support in ZAFT and in PLANT's general populace.
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Old 2009-07-23, 00:17   Link #1265
kk2extreme
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I still don't like god mode kira (but strike freedom is kool)
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Old 2009-07-23, 01:22   Link #1266
Neku
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
It was painfully predictable, for several episodes before the conclusion, that Dullindal would be going down and going down hard at the hands of Kira and Lacus. That predictability makes Dullindal the classic antagonist - i.e. destined to lose.
True, if you qualify Kira and Lacus as the protagonists in Destiny.
But isn't Shinn too, the protagonist? Just because his side was opposed and won over in the end, doesn't necessarily strip the fact that he is, still one of the main characters. One of the leading characters (yeah, and this is coming from someone who utterly hates this moronic bastard).

..which is why I'm saying that Destiny really does not follow the definite black and white. Everyone is merely fighting for their beliefs. Perhaps what would make Durandal an antagonist, would be his trait of a villain.

Quote:
Kira and Lacus were also presented in an uniformly positive light - which came across to me as a very heavy "*hint,hint, nudge,nudge* You're supposed to hate and root against Dullindal". Ok, fine... now give me a reason to hate him and root against him since you're so intent on making me feel that way. Dullindal giving a cherry cartoony presentation of the Destiny Plan, and subtle unsubstantiated hints that he may have tried to assassinate Lacus, is supposed to make me hate him?
You misinterpret.
I am not asking you to hate him nor do I have the intention to make you hate him. Durandal could possibly be the most well-written character in Destiny. Yet I am merely pointing out that, if there are villains in Destiny, Durandal would definitely be on the list.

As for the Lacus assassination attempt, I am as assured that he planned and directed it as you are assured that it might not be him. Let's keep it at that.

Finally, perhaps one more point you should know - I do not hate Durandal. I am merely pointing out.
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Old 2009-07-23, 10:44   Link #1267
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lol, I always thought of GSD as just an excuse to sell model kits and fanservice, which is why I never really took the plot all too seriously, despite the series being still rather entertaining.

Personally though, I thought it would have been better if Shinn destroyed Freedom in Destiny Gundam rather than Impulse, therefore bringing more hype to the Destiny Gundam and actually having the supposed 'title suit' bring down another main character suit.
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Old 2009-07-23, 13:43   Link #1268
wingdarkness
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Originally Posted by 4tran
That really isn't true. I think of Durandal as the protagonist and Lacus as the antagonist, but even if you think of Shinn as the protagonist at the beginning, he would remain so at the very end. What the difference is is that Kira in this case doesn't actually become the antagonist - in fact, there wouldn't be any antagonist role. At no point though, is Kira ever the protagonist; he's too badly overshadowed in such a role by both Cagalli and Lacus.
The amount of circumstantial wish-wash (I’m not gonna even call it evidence) that you have to wring out of a dry cloth to think Lacus was the main protagonist (or antagonist as it were) is staggering…I guarantee you Fukuda wouldn’t agree with you, but even morso he clearly stated that Shinn Asuku would be the main protagonist of GSD, with him being an anti-hero of sorts to converse with Kira’s role from SEED (Obviously as we all know Shinn was bastard-whipped out of his intended role, so he no longer has a role in the end because he loses all ability to drive the plot)…But I’m not gonna stop you on the Lacus side as you obviously took Dullindal’s proactive chess-analogies and warped them with her unbelievable “Mary Sue” ability…As if she was making these ON-SCREEN chess moves on Dullindal’s level…You base all of this on the final outcome, ignoring the lack of credence the show itself gives Lacus in her pseudo-main protagonist//antagonist role… Lacus leaves earth to go do “SOMETHING” in space, disappears for $hitloads of time, returns with Gundams and DOMs and now all of a sudden she’s the main anatognist-protagonist? (Clashing wits with Dully at every end??)…That’s a Quantum Leap Scott Bakula is trying hard to get…

Your basing so much of this on off-screen prowess… WE SAW Dullindal playing his game, we DIDN’T SEE LACUS do $hit but show up and wave her magic wand of doubt and omnipotence…She saw DESTINY PLAN scribbled in a notebook and goes “WTFBBQ!!” when it's basically Obama's job-stimulus package…I know I’ll never convince you, but maybe I can convince somebody who believes in you…

No matter what you think Dullindal was dastardly planning or scheming, the truth of the matter is MORE THAN A BILLION people would have had to agree with him for him to pass his plan…He made a campaign and if they accepted then that’s there deal…Team Lacus didn’t agree because they have omnipotent powers so they felt he needed to be killed…In-turn he lost it (I’ll admit that, it was Lacus and Kira’s support from Orb that kept his finger on the trigger), but still the DESTINY PLAN wasn’t $hit to be all Armageddon about (Because no one disagreed with him but Cagali’s Orb)…

Quote:
First off, I don't think that a work having some ambiguity in a few story elements is necessarily bad storytelling. Next, I don't know why a matter of 100% agreement with any point is all that important. As it stands, the arguments against Durandal being the guilty party are few and weak, thereby leading to a rather obvious conclusion.
This wasn’t just some literary interpretive issue…If it were I’d be more incline to let your opinion stand without trifle, but this is a matter of basic execution and functionality that so mired a series that basic concepts of what the show was trying to achieve are up for grabs in certain areas (As in the case of Dullindal’s assignation attempt, although to suggest that Lacus was the main antagonist or protagonist is still to far a leap in my book)… I rather like this comment:

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Originally Posted by Shockingly enuff 4tran
That's really hard to say. Lacus is perhaps the hardest to read of all the characters in the Gundam shows so it's really hard to tell exactly what she'll end up doing.
If applied to your main antagonist argument maybe you can see why I don’t agree with that and why omnipotence or omnipresence seems to be used with her ability to move the plot…She’s hax; stop falling for her non-existent ability just because her side won in the end…
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Old 2009-07-23, 14:38   Link #1269
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Originally Posted by Neku View Post



You misinterpret.
I am not asking you to hate him nor do I have the intention to make you hate him. Durandal could possibly be the most well-written character in Destiny. Yet I am merely pointing out that, if there are villains in Destiny, Durandal would definitely be on the list.
I probably should have clarified who the "you" is in my "Ok, fine... now give me a reason to hate him and root against him since you're so intent on making me feel that way." sentence.

The "you" is not you personally, Neku, but rather a plural you referring to the people behind Gundam Seed Destiny. Maybe I'm picking up on something that isn't really there, but I did get this strong sense that the people behind Gundam Seed Destiny were strongly hinting to the viewer that they should root against Durandal. That they were setting him up for a big fall, and you the viewer, are intended to enjoy watching it.


Quote:

As for the Lacus assassination attempt, I am as assured that he planned and directed it as you are assured that it might not be him. Let's keep it at that.
I'm certainly inclined to think he was behind it, but there's plausible deniablity there. Why leave it open to question at all?
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Old 2009-07-23, 15:03   Link #1270
Aquaman OS
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Well since its pretty clear that the 2nd half of show was not at all what they planned while working on the first seeing as most if not all of the early plot points were completely abandoned, I'm guessing the reveal that he sent them was just abandoned or forgotten about.
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Old 2009-07-23, 18:22   Link #1271
4Tran
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Originally Posted by wingdarkness
But I’m not gonna stop you on the Lacus side as you obviously took Dullindal’s proactive chess-analogies and warped them with her unbelievable “Mary Sue” ability…As if she was making these ON-SCREEN chess moves on Dullindal’s level…You base all of this on the final outcome, ignoring the lack of credence the show itself gives Lacus in her pseudo-main protagonist//antagonist role… Lacus leaves earth to go do “SOMETHING” in space, disappears for $hitloads of time, returns with Gundams and DOMs and now all of a sudden she’s the main anatognist-protagonist? (Clashing wits with Dully at every end??)…That’s a Quantum Leap Scott Bakula is trying hard to get…
Nah, what we see Lacus actually achieve is enough to push her into the antagonist role. I'd say that Lacus was better at politicking than Durandal, but she did have the advantage of having a stronger position to begin with.

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Originally Posted by wingdarkness
No matter what you think Dullindal was dastardly planning or scheming, the truth of the matter is MORE THAN A BILLION people would have had to agree with him for him to pass his plan…He made a campaign and if they accepted then that’s there deal…Team Lacus didn’t agree because they have omnipotent powers so they felt he needed to be killed…In-turn he lost it (I’ll admit that, it was Lacus and Kira’s support from Orb that kept his finger on the trigger), but still the DESTINY PLAN wasn’t $hit to be all Armageddon about (Because no one disagreed with him but Cagali’s Orb)…
Who were these more than a billion people who agreed with the Destiny Plan? All I could count were Rey, Shinn, and Durandal's lackeys - can you point me to the rest? Besides, it's war, not a popularity contest, so why should anyone really care about how popular Durandal's idea was?

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Originally Posted by wingdarkness
If applied to your main antagonist argument maybe you can see why I don’t agree with that and why omnipotence or omnipresence seems to be used with her ability to move the plot…She’s hax; stop falling for her non-existent ability just because her side won in the end…
That's only true if you assign the term "hax" to anything you don't understand . Lacus is a complex character who doesn't tend to share information with other people - she made a big point of not informing Kira about what she was up to, for example. As such, it's only natural that it's difficult to see how she would react given completely new powers and responsibilities.

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Originally Posted by Triple_R
I'm certainly inclined to think he was behind it, but there's plausible deniablity there. Why leave it open to question at all?
The main reason is that the creators thought that the culprit was already obvious (which it really was); and they didn't want to make Durandal out as an outright villain from the very beginning. There's a rather smaller chance that they did want to come out and say that "Durandal did it", but never had a proper way of fitting it into the narrative.
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Old 2009-07-23, 23:59   Link #1272
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Nah, what we see Lacus actually achieve is enough to push her into the antagonist role. I'd say that Lacus was better at politicking than Durandal, but she did have the advantage of having a stronger position to begin with.
Wow, I've been lurking the AnimeSuki forums for the past 6 months. I'm always surprised to keep seeing this one thread pop up over and over again. Well, now I'd like to put in my $0.02.

I thought GSD was pretty good when it first came out. The series itself was very successful commercially. In fact, SEED and Destiny were what got me into watching anime, reading mangas and building Gunpla so they would always hold a spot in my heart. However, after watching through it a second time, the flaws started to stand out. The reuse of footage was ridiculous, the recap episodes were a complete waste of time, and the plot had some major holes/flaws (Impluse's Excalibur gaining a beam emitter on the point for example).

However, I still think that GSD is pretty good. Nowhere near as good a Seed but it was good, not great. Despite it's flaws, I'd agree with most of the points that people have made about the good things in GSD. It's too bad that Fukada and his wife couldn't implement the story better.

Now the thing about who's the bad guy and who's the good guy, it's all up to who you see had the right ideals. I believe Fukada had planned for Durandal to be the bad guy from the start. However, that doesn't make Durandal an antagonist.

The thing that most people forget is that the titles of protagonist and antagonist don't automatically make one character good and the other bad. The protagonist is the main character or group characters who share the same ideas and the story focuses on them.

Technically, this would make Durandal, Rey and Shinn (even though he was a puppet) the protagonists. Durandal saying that he wants "people to live a happy life" and Shinn going all googly eyed and following along. The plot in GSD was setup to present 2 trains of thought for ending violence: the Destiny Plan and Kira and companies' way. GSD was setup from the start to slowly reveal bits and pieces of Durandals true intentions with the Destiny Plan, therefore, making him the protagonist.

The antagonist is basically another character of set of characters that have differing views from the protagonists. So, Kira and crew could be thought of the antagonists since they oppose the Destiny Plan.

So, like I said earlier, it's up to the viewer to decide who they think who ultimately were the good guys and who were the bad guys. As for me, I believe that Durandal was the de facto "bad guy." This of course will mean that Kira and crew are the "good guys."

However, I know many will argue that Lacus' actions may have hidden evil intentions and that it was a power grab. It's still unclear as to whether she's the Chairwoman, a council member or an envoy by the end of GSDSE 4. Besides, Fukada and his wife have so pinholed Kira and Lacus into the goody-two-shoes role that if they did something like drastically alter one of their roles, they'd probably destroy the SEED franchise. Not to mention that they'd incur the wrath of all the Kira/Lacus fans that they built the SEED franchise off of (lol...I know many will say that GSD already destroyed it). I still can't believe that Kira and Lacus are still at the top of the Favorite Anime Characters (Japanese ones at least) lists after all these years!

Wow, that was a long ass post!! Hope I made sense!

Last edited by FriedRice84; 2009-07-24 at 00:10.
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Old 2009-07-24, 02:08   Link #1273
winter45
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Heh, tell that to the Durandal supporters 4tran. I was just coming up with a way to retort the top Durandal supporter arguement of "The assassins couldn't have been sent by Zaft because they would have sent Coordinators, and those guys couldn't have been Coordinators, because a Natural woman, and a Coordinator cripple were able to hold them back."

In regards to the assisination attempt, the so called co-ordinators\elite\specialforces guys is not doing any justice if the viewer is watching scenes like a a guy running out of a door spraying bullets like an 8 year old playing a first person shooter for the first time.

Im sorry if im suppose to take those kind of actions seriously to establish they are (elite/specialforces) when i have seen other anime and hollywood movies do a far better job to distinguish idiots from proffessionals. (Btw i am also serviceman)

Im not asking for fakuda to do SWAT/Commando training to be exactly executed in the real world. All im asking is to make sure the scenes they put in are convincing to a generous degree that words co-ordinators/specialforces ETC are met with the actual dialogue of they are what they suppose to act on to be.

This is not helping either when there is no solid proof that lucas faction thinks that Dullindal sent them on just mere circumstantional situations. This will just add more towards Dullindall is innocent arguments that could of been minmised if there is a more convincing on screen illustration.

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Why can't everyone be open minded?
This is just another way of saying, why cant people accept my point of view

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Originally Posted by monstert View Post
Whoever actually sent those assassins didn't really matter in the end. The fact that they were using relatively new ZAFT mobile suits and someone is posing as Lacus was enough for Lacus to not trust the chairman. But it's not like they're outright saying it was him. Other things came up and that whole assasination attempt became just a catalyst to get Lacus more actively involved with the outside world.
Problem is CE is infamous for gundam jacks. Gundams are stolen from high security areas is a norm. If these peices of equipment can get stolen so easily i cant see y non gundam hardware cant be stolen as easily or even more easier.

This just adds another example on how Dullindal could be/is innocent with bad directing execution.
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Old 2009-07-24, 03:28   Link #1274
4Tran
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Wow, I've been lurking the AnimeSuki forums for the past 6 months. I'm always surprised to keep seeing this one thread pop up over and over again. Well, now I'd like to put in my $0.02.
Cool stuff. Glad to see you aboard.

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However, after watching through it a second time, the flaws started to stand out. The reuse of footage was ridiculous, the recap episodes were a complete waste of time, and the plot had some major holes/flaws
True enough. Although I'd venture that having an incomplete narrative is Destiny's greatest fault. Story of the show: lots of good ideas, but the execution is very flawed.

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Originally Posted by FriedRice84 View Post
Besides, Fukada and his wife have so pinholed Kira and Lacus into the goody-two-shoes role that if they did something like drastically alter one of their roles, they'd probably destroy the SEED franchise. Not to mention that they'd incur the wrath of all the Kira/Lacus fans that they built the SEED franchise off of (lol...I know many will say that GSD already destroyed it). I still can't believe that Kira and Lacus are still at the top of the Favorite Anime Characters (Japanese ones at least) lists after all these years!
Truthfully, they were cornered into that by the end of Seed. The fear of fan retribution is one of the widest-held beliefs for why Kira and Lacus weren't allowed to kiss in Destiny.


And seeing that this is steering towards the matter of Lacus' assassination (again ), I'll post the response to winter45's post in the Lacus' Assassination (Redux) thread. Please post any responses on this topic over there.
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Old 2009-07-24, 04:02   Link #1275
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
And seeing that this is steering towards the matter of Lacus' assassination (again ), I'll post the response to winter45's post in the Lacus' Assassination (Redux) thread. Please post any responses on this topic over there.

4TRAN you totally missed the 2nd half of my reponses on your so called Steering towards "Assisination on Lacus" IM more on terms of agreeing with wingdarkness of bad writing and execution while using other posters on neutral ground as examples of diversity of conflicting POV's. Which also does contribute my personal reasoning on why GSD failed.

If you really believed i was steering away from what caused GSD to fail, could you at least transfer my posts there, instead of giving a link to respond to my response somewhere else. (Even there the kira/lacus fanboyism still doesnt convince me)
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Old 2009-07-24, 04:12   Link #1276
4Tran
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Originally Posted by winter45 View Post
4TRAN you totally missed the 2nd half of my reponses on your so called Steering towards "Assisination on Lacus" IM more on terms of agreeing with wingdarkness of bad writing and execution while using other posters on neutral ground as examples of diversity of conflicting POV's. Which also does contribute my personal reasoning on why GSD failed.

If you really believed i was steering away from what caused GSD to fail, could you at least transfer my posts there, instead of giving a link to respond to my response somewhere else. (Even there the kira/lacus fanboyism still doesnt convince me)
Your post is fine right here, and I'm not really complaining about your putting in stuff about Lacus' assassination. It's just that my response would have been solely on that subject, so it shouldn't be in this thread.
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Old 2009-07-24, 04:16   Link #1277
winter45
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Your post is fine right here, and I'm not really complaining about your putting in stuff about Lacus' assassination. It's just that my response would have been solely on that subject, so it shouldn't be in this thread.
It could of been taken 2 ways and not sure which was taken so i acted on self defence. Until the awkwardness has been cleared up
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Old 2009-07-24, 14:48   Link #1278
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Originally Posted by 4tran
Who were these more than a billion people who agreed with the Destiny Plan? All I could count were Rey, Shinn, and Durandal's lackeys - can you point me to the rest? Besides, it's war, not a popularity contest, so why should anyone really care about how popular Durandal's idea was?
I guess you forgot the point about a billion fudgin’ people that would have to stand in line at some DESTINY PLAN facility and get their blood-samples or WTFhaveyou-sample taken so it can be determined what job they would be best for…You also must be forgetting that other than Cagali’s Orb and I guess Switzerland, Dullindal had the world on his side to an overwhelming degree…People were screaming his name like a hook from a Micheal Jackson “Feed the World” song…Even after Messiah was Yamato’d it was shown that people were still on earth pissed that ZAFT had lost…

This goes to my original point of contrast that states that no matter what HE WANTED TO DO, he couldn’t do it without a HUGE, beyond fair margin of Earth and Space behind it…You can’t drop syringes on people from a deathray, and since he had already established ZAFT as a force against Djbril and #1 aid-merchant after “Break the World” he had clear support worldwide (One thing the show actually does give fair evidence on) Support that a piece of paper in a notebook scribbled DESTINY PLAN wouldn’t be enuff to eradicate, nevermind making some pink haired Miley Cyrus think it was ARMAGEDDEN on the universe… What would be the point in sacrificing all that he went thru to get the support of the world with trying to do this via threat of deathray??

Moreover, Dullindal couldn’t bully this plan even if he wanted to because of the scope implied, but (like many who watched this show) he went a little bat$hit after it was shown that 2 people (Kira and Lacus) and their team of super allstar good-guy terrorists could pwn an entire universal army with no sweat or lost mechanical limbs…By the time he tried to blow up Orb and his own squad he had lost pretty much everything he had gained in the propaganda for implementing his plan…

Quote:
(Concerning Lacus’ plothax) That's only true if you assign the term "hax" to anything you don't understand .
This is funny since you basically concede that you don’t understand her, atleast not to the point you’d have any clue what she’d be up to in a subsequent story…Nice wraparound man….That’s why she’s hax because she can seemingly do anything at anytime to suit the story, as you earlier, unknowingly admitted…
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Old 2009-07-24, 15:27   Link #1279
4Tran
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I guess you forgot the point about a billion fudgin’ people that would have to stand in line at some DESTINY PLAN facility and get their blood-samples or WTFhaveyou-sample taken so it can be determined what job they would be best for…You also must be forgetting that other than Cagali’s Orb and I guess Switzerland, Dullindal had the world on his side to an overwhelming degree…People were screaming his name like a hook from a Micheal Jackson “Feed the World” song…Even after Messiah was Yamato’d it was shown that people were still on earth pissed that ZAFT had lost…
Watch the show again - nobody said anything positive about the Destiny Plan other than Durandal and his pawns.

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Originally Posted by wingdarkness View Post
This goes to my original point of contrast that states that no matter what HE WANTED TO DO, he couldn’t do it without a HUGE, beyond fair margin of Earth and Space behind it…You can’t drop syringes on people from a deathray, and since he had already established ZAFT as a force against Djbril and #1 aid-merchant after “Break the World” he had clear support worldwide (One thing the show actually does give fair evidence on) Support that a piece of paper in a notebook scribbled DESTINY PLAN wouldn’t be enuff to eradicate, nevermind making some pink haired Miley Cyrus think it was ARMAGEDDEN on the universe… What would be the point in sacrificing all that he went thru to get the support of the world with trying to do this via threat of deathray??
He did that because his entire plan up until that point was ruined beyond repair, and so intimidation was the only recourse left to him.

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Originally Posted by wingdarkness View Post
Moreover, Dullindal couldn’t bully this plan even if he wanted to because of the scope implied, but (like many who watched this show) he went a little bat$hit after it was shown that 2 people (Kira and Lacus) and their team of super allstar good-guy terrorists could pwn an entire universal army with no sweat or lost mechanical limbs…By the time he tried to blow up Orb and his own squad he had lost pretty much everything he had gained in the propaganda for implementing his plan…
Precisely. That's one of the main thematic thrusts at the end of Destiny. It's not one that's pulled off very well, but elements of it can still be seen (especially with Durandal's own doubts about his chances).

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Originally Posted by wingdarkness View Post
This is funny since you basically concede that you don’t understand her, atleast not to the point you’d have any clue what she’d be up to in a subsequent story…Nice wraparound man….That’s why she’s hax because she can seemingly do anything at anytime to suit the story, as you earlier, unknowingly admitted…
You do realize that there's a vast gulf of distance between "not fully understanding a character" and "not understanding a character", right? As a matter of fact, I have a very good idea of what reason Lacus had for doing everything she did or didn't do in Destiny. In any case, just because one doesn't understand a character doesn't make a character "hax". The only thing that can do so is if the only possible explanation for their actions is authorial fiat. Good luck trying to pin that on Lacus .
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Old 2009-07-24, 17:15   Link #1280
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Watch the show again - nobody said anything positive about the Destiny Plan other than Durandal and his pawns.
IIRC not even Dullindal's pawns had a lot of positive things to say... Even Shinn & Rey agreed with it only because it was Dullindal's plan and they would do anything to further his plans... Most of the ZAFT people had doubts about it.
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