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Old 2009-08-16, 19:56   Link #1401
kakakka
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Then its a Gundam.

I saw 1/100 and HG 1/144 (BanDai) models label it as a Gundam.
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Old 2009-08-16, 20:06   Link #1402
Rawinder
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
What internal logic? In-universe, "Gundam" is just a term that a few characters use to describe certain mobile suits. How would the number of units these characters include with this moniker make any difference?
I think you might have misunderstood me. What I was trying to say is that it doesn't make sense for there to be so many Gundams in both SEED and DESTINY. In most other Gundam shows, a "Gundam" is built as the prototype for an intended mass-production suit (e.g. Amuro's RX-78 is the prototype model for the GM). But in the SEED universe, it seems like that characters are just building Gundams for the sake of building Gundams.

I'm well aware that Fukuda did this because he just wanted to create a lot of new Gundam models (and I would argue that his penchant for fanservice is a major reason why SEED and especially DESTINY didn't work), but it kind of stretches the credibility of the story to have so many Gundams run around, especially with something like the Strike Freedom or the Destroy.

Incidentally, I just finished both SEED and DESTINY recently, both for the first time, so maybe I'll sit down and write out what I thought went wrong with DESTINY--the abundance of Gundams being one such problem. =P
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Old 2009-08-16, 20:15   Link #1403
justavisitor
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The fight in Seed or Destiny is kind of interesting/funny/weird (you name it)...there are 2 types of fighting in every battle...the fight between prototype and the fight between mass produce...prototype (aka gundam) is much better and if one side can't stop the other prototype, that prototype from other side will wipe out your troops, same goes both ways of course...therefore, you need to produce enough prototypes to stop another prototypes from other sides

If you think like that then it's easier to accept why there are so many gundams in the show? Other gundam series have these similar concepts but Fukuda takes it to the extreme...but hey it's very interesting and consistent in Seed (less consistent in Destiny)..
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Old 2009-08-16, 20:19   Link #1404
RisArk
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a "Gundam" is built as the prototype for an intended mass-production suit (e.g. Amuro's RX-78 is the prototype model for the GM).
That hasn't been true since uh...Zeta. And even that's a technicality since the Zeta wasn't limited mass-produced until Char's Counterattack.

A Gundam is simply a status symbol. And only officially by Bandai's words. A lot of mobile suits nearing Gundam status are not soley on their words.
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Old 2009-08-16, 20:21   Link #1405
4Tran
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Originally Posted by kakakka View Post
Then its a Gundam.

I saw 1/100 and HG 1/144 (BanDai) models label it as a Gundam.
Then Akatsuki's a Gundam .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rawinder View Post
I think you might have misunderstood me. What I was trying to say is that it doesn't make sense for there to be so many Gundams in both SEED and DESTINY. In most other Gundam shows, a "Gundam" is built as the prototype for an intended mass-production suit (e.g. Amuro's RX-78 is the prototype model for the GM). But in the SEED universe, it seems like that characters are just building Gundams for the sake of building Gundams.
This is something that differs greatly from universe to universe.
  • In the UC shows, a Gundam is any mobile suit that's called a Gundam. By late-UC, this mobile suit doesn't have to have anything in common with RX-78.
  • In G Gundam, any mobile suit in the Gundam Fight is a Gundam.
  • In Wing Gundam, a Gundam is any mobile suit that's called a Gundam.
  • In Gundam X, a Gundam is any mobile suit that's called a Gundam.
  • In Turn A Gundam, only Corin Nander is even familiar with the term "Gundam" (with a possible exception that I've forgotten) so it doesn't matter .
  • In Gundam Seed/Destiny, a Gundam is any mobile suit that's called a Gundam.
  • In Gundam 00, a Gundam is any mobile suit that's called a Gundam.
I really don't see a whole lot of similarity between your preferred definition and how the term's actually used in-universe.
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Old 2009-08-16, 20:31   Link #1406
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Originally Posted by RisArk View Post
That hasn't been true since uh...Zeta. And even that's a technicality since the Zeta wasn't limited mass-produced until Char's Counterattack.

A Gundam is simply a status symbol. And only officially by Bandai's words. A lot of mobile suits nearing Gundam status are not soley on their words.
Hmm? The RX-79, F91, and Victory were all mass produced. The Gundams in 0083 were supposed to be prototypes for future models, but that's rendered impossible in the ending. And the Gundams in X (even though its an AU) are all mass produced machines, even if most of them are wiped out in the show's backstory. I know it doesn't necessarily apply to all series, but since SEED is essentially supposed to be Universal Century for a new generation, I think the comparison between Gundams in UC and CE is fair.

In any case, I think I'm presenting my opinion rather poorly. Basically, I just think it undermines the drama in SEED and DESTINY to have so many flashy, uber-powerful Gundams running around. Like I said, it seems like people in the SEED universe just build Gundams for no other reason than to build Gundams.
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Old 2009-08-16, 20:55   Link #1407
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Gundams are weapons of war. If it works, and you have the dough + pilot to work the darn thing, do it. Same with any other "flashy, uber-powerful" weapons throughout history. You have the money and manpower, you'll use the thing.
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Old 2009-08-16, 21:20   Link #1408
RisArk
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Hmm? The RX-79, F91, and Victory were all mass produced.
F91 and Victory weren't mass-produced into lesser units, as per your example of RX-78-2 to GM.

Quote:
* In the UC shows, a Gundam is any mobile suit that's called a Gundam. By late-UC, this mobile suit doesn't have to have anything in common with RX-78.
* In G Gundam, any mobile suit in the Gundam Fight is a Gundam.
* In Wing Gundam, a Gundam is any mobile suit that's called a Gundam.
* In Gundam X, a Gundam is any mobile suit that's called a Gundam.
* In Turn A Gundam, only Corin Nander is even familiar with the term "Gundam" (with a possible exception that I've forgotten) so it doesn't matter .
* In Gundam Seed/Destiny, a Gundam is any mobile suit that's called a Gundam.
* In Gundam 00, a Gundam is any mobile suit that's called a Gundam.
Wing's Gundams were called Gundams because they were modeled after Wing Zero's specs, and Treize copying from that. For all purposes and material, the Mercurios and Vayate were Gundams except in name and the face.

But yeah, for every other show a Gundam is simply another name like Zaku or Murasame.

GSD's biggest problem is there's so many Gundam faces, yet they're not considered Gundams.
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Old 2009-08-16, 21:44   Link #1409
brightman
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Originally Posted by RisArk View Post
Wing's Gundams were called Gundams because they were modeled after Wing Zero's specs, and Treize copying from that. For all purposes and material, the Mercurios and Vayate were Gundams except in name and the face.
Not true. The Virgos also used Gundanium and were basically Mercurios/Vayate combined. However, nobody would call them Gundams.

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Originally Posted by Rawinder View Post
In any case, I think I'm presenting my opinion rather poorly. Basically, I just think it undermines the drama in SEED and DESTINY to have so many flashy, uber-powerful Gundams running around. Like I said, it seems like people in the SEED universe just build Gundams for no other reason than to build Gundams.
Except that in the CE universe, the term Gundam isn't really defined, at all. Freedom Gundam isn't a Gundam, its a mobile suit called Freedom that happens to have an OS named "GUNDAM". And the OS acronym is shared by all Earth Alliance and Orb suits, mass-produced or not. Its also true that all their expensive prototypes basically share the Gundam look, but that doesn't mean they are doing it to "make Gundams". Maybe in that universe, if you build an expensive suit you have to include the Gundam head to incorporate the best camera features, whereas regular suits don't need them (except Orb which has money up their a$$es to blow).
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Old 2009-08-16, 21:56   Link #1410
Rawinder
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Originally Posted by RisArk View Post
F91 and Victory weren't mass-produced into lesser units, as per your example of RX-78-2 to GM.
Fair enough. The point I was trying (and apparently failing) to get across was that I feel that SEED and DESTINY have an excessive amount of Gundams (whether you want them "Gundams" or not). I mean, those two shows combined have a greater amount of Gundams than all UC animations put together. It just feels like overkill to me and, as I mentioned earlier, more like an indulgence in fanservice than anything else.

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Originally Posted by brightman View Post
Except that in the CE universe, the term Gundam isn't really defined, at all. Freedom Gundam isn't a Gundam, its a mobile suit called Freedom that happens to have an OS named "GUNDAM". And the OS acronym is shared by all Earth Alliance and Orb suits, mass-produced or not. Its also true that all their expensive prototypes basically share the Gundam look, but that doesn't mean they are doing it to "make Gundams". Maybe in that universe, if you build an expensive suit you have to include the Gundam head to incorporate the best camera features, whereas regular suits don't need them (except Orb which has money up their a$$es to blow).
Yes, I know what the in-universe explanation for CE Gundams is. But, at least from an "out-of-universe" perspective, I think the distinction between "Gundams" and mass-produced suits is clear. Even if the GUNDAM OS is shared by many suits, there's a pretty clear difference between machines like the Freedom, Destiny, Legend, etc. and the grunt mobile suits.

I didn't mean to make such a big deal out of a relatively small issue. The script is by far DESTINY's biggest problem, and why I can't consider the show as anything but a failure. The use of mobile suits and Gundams in SEED and DESTINY is just a comparatively minor quibble on my part.
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Old 2009-08-16, 22:00   Link #1411
RisArk
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Not true. The Virgos also used Gundanium and were basically Mercurios/Vayate combined. However, nobody would call them Gundams.
I meant stat-wise, they might as well be Gundams. Of course, that's in comparison to the ver. 1 line of Gundams. The upgrades were just hax.

And Talgeese still doesn't make sense.

SEED just has a lot of different rules especially compared to UC. How a Ground-mass produced Gundam is still called a Gundam, yet the Murasames and Astray mass-produced aren't. I guess psychology works different there.
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Old 2009-08-16, 22:06   Link #1412
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I meant stat-wise, they might as well be Gundams. Of course, that's in comparison to the ver. 1 line of Gundams. The upgrades were just hax.
Again, Virgos are on par in terms of performance with those two and the Gundams as well, and Virgo IIs exceed them, so I don't think that's true.

Quote:
SEED just has a lot of different rules especially compared to UC. How a Ground-mass produced Gundam is still called a Gundam, yet the Murasames and Astray mass-produced aren't. I guess psychology works different there.
What's called a Gundam and what's not in the CE universe is set by Bandai's marketing. In-universe, GUNDAM is a series of operating systems for mobile suits, and a nickname used by like 5 people. So none of this really matters, because there aren't any mobile suits that are officially called Gundam.

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Originally Posted by Rawinder View Post
Yes, I know what the in-universe explanation for CE Gundams is. But, at least from an "out-of-universe" perspective, I think the distinction between "Gundams" and mass-produced suits is clear. Even if the GUNDAM OS is shared by many suits, there's a pretty clear difference between machines like the Freedom, Destiny, Legend, etc. and the grunt mobile suits.
But Freedom, Destiny, Legend, etc. aren't the only advanced suits that they make. Strike, Blitz, etc. were also called "Gundams" but are eventually outperformed by ordinary grunt suits, so I don't think the difference is as clear as it seems. Like in any other Gundam universe, there is a tendency to make expensive experimental suits, and the Gundam head just happens to be a luxury item for these suits, just like leather seats are a luxury item for your expensive coupe.
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Old 2009-08-17, 00:37   Link #1413
Rawinder
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I said earlier that I had recently finished DESTINY and wanted to share my thoughts on it. So, for what it's worth, here are my two cents on the series.

I'll preface by saying that I was not a fan of the original SEED, and thought it was really contrived, so I went into DESTINY with just about zero expectations. But, with the exception of a few really poor writing choices (like the repeat of the Gundamjack and Mu's pointless resurrection), I thought DESTINY got off to a stronger start than SEED did. I thought the characters right off the bat were more interesting than SEED's cast, and I liked some of the moral ambiguity injected into the story. I liked that Shinn followed orders that he may have been personally uncomfortable with but still followed anyway because he's a soldier; I liked that Rey and Durandal were characterized as equal parts mysterious and sincere; and I liked how Athrun played something of a mentor role (the Lt. Quattro to Shinn's Kamille). I also liked that the story was not as cut and dry as SEED.

But once Kira and Lacus take over as main characters, the whole thing gets shot to hell. Because Kira and Lacus are portrayed as the perfect embodiments of righteousness and justice, they drain away all of the ambiguity in the story; Fukuda makes it clear that they are right and everyone else is wrong. Kira and Lacus are pretty boring characters in their own right (they're too one-dimensional to be even considered characters), but it's even worse when they take center stage in the series because it undermines the credibility of all the characters we'd been following beforehand. Athrun defects again, thus proving that he was wrong all along; Shinn is completely stunted as a character; Rey's credibility as a character is ruined when it turns out he's a clone of Rau, just as crazy and nihilistic; and any of Durandal's shades of grey are swept away when he turns out to be Emperor Palpatine (complete with swivel chair and giant space window). Fukuda attempts some half-assed attempt at making Kira and Durandal's final confrontation (which should have been between Shinn and Durandal) seem like a lesser-of-two-evils situation, but since Durandal had just been seen firing two enormous mass-murdering space cannons--his whole motivation hinging on the barely explained "Destiny Plan"--it's pretty clear that Durandal is just a villain and, once again, Kira is in the right. So ultimately, the story and characters that DESTINY focused on for two-thirds of the series are completely betrayed so that Kira and Lacus can become the heroes of the universe again.

The thing of it is, I don't mind the idea of Kira and Lacus being part of the story. Like I said earlier, I don't care about Kira or Lacus at all; they're too perfect for me to even treat them as characters, much less like them. But I think if Fukuda had incorporated a Shinn/Kira conflict into the overall plot that extended beyond just revenge, I think it would have really added to the ambiguity of the story and made things more interesting. The way Kira and Lacus end up being used just reeks of fanservice and missed opportunities.

Aside from the disastrous script, my other major complaint about DESTINY is the embarrassing amount of stock footage. It really undercuts a lot of the dramatic weight to the battles when you're just watching a lot of the same scenes over and over again. The constant flashbacks and clip shows were just icing on the cake. It really makes me wonder just what happened to the show's budget.

So yeah, I was sorely disappointed with DESTINY. Like I said, at the beginning, I thought it would be at least prove better than SEED--it had gotten off to a (mostly) better start, had more interesting characters, and a more interesting approach to the story. But Kira, Lacus, and the rest of the SEED cast just totally usurp the show and essentially render any prior investment in the story/characters pointless. It's hard to consider DESTINY as anything but a failure; how the series progressed and ended is clearly not what was intended, and even Fukuda and Sunrise seem aware of it. Hopefully that awareness leads to a higher quality product with the eventual SEED movie.
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Old 2009-08-17, 00:45   Link #1414
4Tran
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Personal note: Rawinder's post is a picture-perfect example of how to build a criticism of a show without resorting to rhetorical trickery or whining. About the only things that I don't agree with in it would fall in the realm of personal tastes (for example, I don't think that the ending is so utterly shorn of ambiguity), and there's nothing that needs refuting even though I liked Destiny.
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Old 2009-08-17, 05:13   Link #1415
Paladinoras
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
It's really too bad that the Special Edition cuts out so many of my favorite parts. One of these days I'll have to rewatch the show, but it'll probably have to be the TV version.
Well, yeah, it cuts out a significant portion of the movies, but retconned so many others that it makes it somewhat more decent.

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
It should be noted that, of these, only Akatsuki is in Destiny - and Akatsuki isn't even necessarily a Gundam.
Generally, in the SEEDverse, the Akatsuki would be considered a Gundam, due to the presence of the GUNDAM OS. And generally, in the SEEDverse, anything with the Gundam OS is undoubtedly classified as a Gundam.

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What internal logic? In-universe, "Gundam" is just a term that a few characters use to describe certain mobile suits. How would the number of units these characters include with this moniker make any difference?
*shrug* Apparently, along the years, Gundams have achieved a special status among each Gundam series, as being the top of the line and most innovative suits of its time. So, practically speaking, they should only be used by the best possible pilots to optimize their performance. But I don't see what is so different in the CE era than in the other timelines.
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Old 2009-08-17, 05:22   Link #1416
bladeofdarkness
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well i would accuse destiny more then SEED for too many gundams because its only with destiny that they start MASS PRODUCING them
in SEED the original 5 units were built as prototypes for future mass production models (the only one who made it is the strike based mass produced dagger)
then you have 3 others who are basically ZAFT trying to reverse engineer the earth units who proved very effective
producing 3 new gundams
i dont know if the 3 druggy units count as gundams, but if they are, then they are simply another case of prototypes
at no point do they actually start mass producing gundams

in destiny you have the 5 gundam prototypes at first (the three stolen ones, impulse and savior)
and then 4 newer ones (freedom justice legend and destiny) who are basiclly one off units
but then you get the destroy gundam that are basiclly mass produced gundams
and mass producing gundams is the last straw because the whole POINT of a gundam is that its a prototype and NOT a mass production unit
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Old 2009-08-18, 04:54   Link #1417
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Beside Katijina from Victory Gundam, Shinn is probably the second Gundam character that I hate. He started off great like Camilia and Amuro; arrogant, ignorant, short-temper. But he didn't growth or mature throughout the series. What the hell is he fighting for again? I hate how they underdeveloped his character. They already borrowed so many ideas from Zeta Gundam, I wonder why they didn't maintain the same plot element as in Zeta. I like Kira and don't mind him being overpower, but Destiny story should still be about Shinn, just like how it should in Zeta.
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Old 2009-08-18, 06:12   Link #1418
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Beside Katijina from Victory Gundam, Shinn is probably the second Gundam character that I hate. He started off great like Camilia and Amuro; arrogant, ignorant, short-temper. But he didn't growth or mature throughout the series. What the hell is he fighting for again? I hate how they underdeveloped his character. They already borrowed so many ideas from Zeta Gundam, I wonder why they didn't maintain the same plot element as in Zeta. I like Kira and don't mind him being overpower, but Destiny story should still be about Shinn, just like how it should in Zeta.
He's fighting to change the world... You know, like what the Gundam Meisters do. Except in this case he listens to an charismatic politician rather than some dead old guy from two hundred years ago.

And he certainly did "grow" during the series, though some might argue that this growth was not for the best.
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Old 2009-08-18, 17:53   Link #1419
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He's fighting to change the world... You know, like what the Gundam Meisters do. Except in this case he listens to an charismatic politician rather than some dead old guy from two hundred years ago.

And he certainly did "grow" during the series, though some might argue that this growth was not for the best.
What I don't get is why he behave that way. How is his viewpoint of changing the world in anyway shape by his life experience, like witnessing the death of his parents and sister? How did he come to that conclusion? It seems like Shinn is just a blind sheep. In CCA, Chars decides to play the ultimate bad guy because of certain things happening to him in the past, and unable to convince earth people to migrate to space, led him to reach his final resolution. Even if they initiate try to develop Shinn's character into a villain, they should at least develop him into one. I felt that they didn't. That's why Shinn character pisses me off, like Katijana from V gundam.
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Old 2009-08-18, 18:39   Link #1420
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Personal note: Rawinder's post is a picture-perfect example of how to build a criticism of a show without resorting to rhetorical trickery or whining. About the only things that I don't agree with in it would fall in the realm of personal tastes (for example, I don't think that the ending is so utterly shorn of ambiguity), and there's nothing that needs refuting even though I liked Destiny.
Oh nice subtlety there...Geeez Louise man are you teaching online coarses @ DeVry or something on this? You are clearly talking about me behind my monitors' back , (Perhaps Kaioshin-Sama aswell?) when I've been off this thread for like 2 weeks...

Can I translate a bit?

This is a anti-wingdarkness example of how to respond TO ME, since I don't understand talking to members with actual personalities who know how to both make decent points and create colorful or entertaining posts at the same time...About the only things I don't agree with would fall in the realm of talking positively about Gundam 00 which I hate and will gladly let haters of this program congregate in this forum no holds barred, and there's nothing that needs to be refuted eventhough I consider the supremely flawed GSD the best gundam series ever (Lacus Clyne has alot to do with that)...

Rhetorical trickery, check....


Seriously I'm glad Rawinder was able to say what has been said to you a million times, but in your perfect way...

Quote:
But once Kira and Lacus take over as main characters, the whole thing gets shot to hell. Because Kira and Lacus are portrayed as the perfect embodiments of righteousness and justice, they drain away all of the ambiguity in the story; Fukuda makes it clear that they are right and everyone else is wrong. Kira and Lacus are pretty boring characters in their own right (they're too one-dimensional to be even considered characters), but it's even worse when they take center stage in the series because it undermines the credibility of all the characters we'd been following beforehand.
Damn Rawinder, based on this post, you're my favorite new member too^^...
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