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Old 2010-05-01, 04:59   Link #1581
monster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by winter45 View Post
Im just replying to your previous question of where could shinn desert too.
Do you think a coordinator and ZAFT soldier who deserted with a unique mobile suit would be able to make his way from Europe to Mars? And even if by some chance he did, you don't think ZAFT would pursue him there?
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Never said he was/wasnt, so whats your point? Never said anyone specifically did either so whats really your point?

Nor did i imply i dont know who is leader of faith is.
So why do you keep bringing up consequences? If Dullindal himself didn't do anything to Athrun, there's no reason to expect consequences from anybody else.
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And again i never gave specific detail who is in authority over Authrun so why are you making a big deal of something that i never said or implied? The person/department/organisation who is/are in authority may question authrun and doesnt exclude using personal/equipment/assets of other departments to monitor him.

So where did this whole who is legible the question authrun come from???


Now im puzzled.. you keep on bringing up Dullindal as the respective authority leader of *faith* i never denied he is... but your also assuming that im saying everyone has the authority to question over authrun which you are quite wrong if that is your understanding of my position.
You seem to have the tendency to forget what you wrote in the first place. So let me take you back to the very beginning of all this when you said (and I quote):
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Originally Posted by winter45
But cracks me up when shinn gets detained for interacting with the enemy while athrun didnt. (not to mention hard evidence from luna spying on athrun has been recorded)
So here is where the authority issue comes in:

Talia gave permission and the only other person who has a right to detain or question Athrun would be Dullindal. And since Dullindal did nothing, it makes sense why Athrun wasn't detained or questioned.
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Old 2010-05-01, 06:19   Link #1582
winter45
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Originally Posted by monstert View Post
Do you think a coordinator and ZAFT soldier who deserted with a unique mobile suit would be able to make his way from Europe to Mars? And even if by some chance he did, you don't think ZAFT would pursue him there?.
Now your just bieng stupid.. if someone wants to desert from the military theres nothing to stop them.. but nothing also is preventing them from being caught either. Doesnt matter how realistic or unrealistic it may seem doesnt stop people from deserting.. look at conscripts and volunteer as examples, they tend to have a higher chance in deserting than regulars. But will try regardless of reasons if the penalty of their offence is high enough that escaping is a better deal,

As for shinn doing what he did.. he has balls to go back and depending on the military justice system he may be executed or sentenced to imprisonment for a very long time. Which deserting or defecting would be a better preference than his likely sentence with zaft.

My reply to mars is a reply to your question where could he desert too.. How shinn gets there and his avoidance measures he uses is up to him..

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So why do you keep bringing up consequences? If Dullindal himself didn't do anything to Athrun, there's no reason to expect consequences from anybody else.
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Originally Posted by monstert View Post
Talia gave permission and the only other person who has a right to detain or question Athrun would be Dullindal. And since Dullindal did nothing, it makes sense why Athrun wasn't detained or questioned.
Speculation... that the armed soldiers who were looking for athrun may have been related to his involvment with kira... but nothing was solidly described due to the fact athrun chose to run and stoled a gouf in the process instead finding out the reason why guards where searching for him. (could even been he lost his wallet and the guards were nice enough to return it)

But the moment he stoled the gouf legally he may be shot down for stolen of equipment and deserting his post and potentially depending his reason on the guards to retreive him if its related to kira.. may considered his actions likelihood of sign of defection.

And given those Armed soldiers were looking for athrun its is highly likely that Dullindal was the man who issued those orders to retrieve him. (which in imho is to detain him for questioning in regards to his involvement with kira)

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Originally Posted by monstert View Post
You seem to have the tendency to forget what you wrote in the first place. So let me take you back to the very beginning of all this when you said (and I quote): So here is where the authority issue comes in:
No i didn't forget but it this argument evolved into something else that i didn't recognize it anymore. But that is due to 2 differnt understanding of military protocol even militants with *special* Authority who still have limitations of what they may do with their privileges.

Yes i was laughing at the fact this is a teenage soap opera. If this was world war 2 an officer would never authorize an order of this caliber for personal purposes. Realistically athrun would of been lined up and shot. While with shinns case was more realistic what would of happen but of course your not a militant so i wouldn't expect you to understand the black humor as i did.

As with the hard evidence from luna.. if a militant is exposed in personal relationship with the enemy, interacting he would more than likely be detained for questioning in bounds to determine if his loyalty has been compromised which this is a standard procedure that SEED with its teenage soap opera style tends to neglect. OR it was exactly y those armed soldiers were there to pick him up before he played his desertion card but we never know the exact reasons of athrun retrieval.

Also like to add its not always the case you get detained for questioning straight away,(which im asuming this is what your expecting) some cases may take months after unusal incident takes place.. reason for taking longer than expected may have various reasons. Which in this case supports my speculation at a later date that Dullindal may have ordered for athruns retrieval for questioning before he defected.

But as you can see this is speculation just like the so called Dullindal ordered the lacus assassination which till this day has no strong evidence but only speculation.

But in context with the story even tho its full of BS taken out of proportions i still like to make comments in regards how CE logic fails. Which sir dearka is correct that we both are looking at this show at 2 different angles.

Last edited by winter45; 2010-05-01 at 06:42.
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Old 2010-05-01, 06:51   Link #1583
monster
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Originally Posted by winter45 View Post
Now your just bieng stupid.. if someone wants to desert from the military theres nothing to stop them.. but nothing also is preventing them from being caught either. Doesnt matter how realistic or unrealistic it may seem doesnt stop people from deserting.. look at conscripts and volunteer as examples, they tend to have a higher chance in deserting than regulars.
Who says anything about stopping Shinn from deserting? The problem would come after he chose to desert.
Quote:
As for shinn doing what he did.. he has balls to go back and depending on the military justice system he may be executed or sentenced to imprisonment for a very long time. Which deserting or defecting would be a better preference than his likely sentence with zaft.
If going back had such implications, imagine deserting (thus adding to his mistakes) and then getting caught.
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My reply to mars is a reply to your question where could he desert too..
I asked where a deserter like Shinn, who has no friends other than ZAFT, would go and your answer is another planet? Now look who's being stupid.
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Speculation... that the armed soldiers who were looking for athrun may have been related to his involvment with kira... but nothing was solidly described due to the fact athrun chose to run and stoled a gouf in the process instead finding out the reason why guards where searching for him. (could even been he lost his wallet and the guards were nice enough to return it)

But the moment he stoled the gouf legally he may be shot down for stolen of equipment and deserting his post and potentially depending his reason on the guards to retreive him if its related to kira.. may considered his actions likelihood of sign of defection.

And given those Armed soldiers were looking for athrun its is highly likely that Dullindal was the man who issued those orders to retrieve him. (which in imho is to detain him for questioning in regards to his involvement with kira)
If that were true, then there's no problem in the first place. Either way, it still makes sense why before that time, Athrun wasn't detained like Shinn.
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No i didn't forget but it this argument evolved into something else that i didn't recognize it anymore. But that is due to 2 differnt understanding of military protocol even militants with *special* Authority who still have limitations of what they may do with their privileges .
And who says that's not the case here? It's not like Athrun just left without telling anybody. And they have the recording for Dullindal to decide what to do.
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Yes i was laughing at the fact this is a teenage soap opera. If this was world war 2 an officer would never authorize an order of this caliber for personal purposes. Realistically athrun would of been lined up and shot. While with shinns case was more realistic what would of happen but of course your not a militant so i wouldn't expect you to understand the humor as i do.
So your complaint basically is about gundams being fictional stories (and yes, this applies to all gundam universes). Well done there, sir.

If this is real life, teenagers wouldn't get to operate the military's best weapons. And all those kids going all the way back to MSG would've been escorted out of the ship long before their respective series end. Oh, and I guess Shinn would've been shot too when he returned.
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As with the hard evidence from luna.. if a militant is exposed in personal relationship with the enemy, interacting he would more than likely be detained for questioning in bounds to determine if his loyalty has been compromised which this is a standard procedure that SEED with its teenage soap opera style tends to neglect. OR it was exactly y those armed soldiers were there to pick him up before he played his desertion card but we never know the exact reasons of athrun retrieval.
Except in cases where the individual had the leader's favor, as is the case with Shinn. And you can't tell me what Athrun did was worse than what Shinn did.
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But as you can see this is speculation just like the so called Dullindal ordered the lacus assassination which till this day has no strong evidence but only speculation.
Just because they're speculation, doesn't mean that all possible answers have the same validity.
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But in context with the story even tho its full of BS taken out of proportions i still like to make comments in regards how CE logic fails. Which sir dearka is correct that we both are looking at this show at 2 different angles.
CE's logic is fine within the context of its universe. It doesn't fail any more than UC or other gundam universes.
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Old 2010-05-01, 07:44   Link #1584
winter45
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Originally Posted by monstert View Post
Who says anything about stopping Shinn from deserting? The problem would come after he chose to desert.

If going back had such implications, imagine deserting (thus adding to his mistakes) and then getting caught.

I asked where a deserter like Shinn, who has no friends other than ZAFT, would go and your answer is another planet? Now look who's being stupid..
Like athrun, shinn would be likely be hunted down by zaft but this reply is already obvious.

Deserting in general is not a good practice.. Best not to get caught in the process.

Hmm guess never occurred to you deserters have been recorded to desert in foreign lands in enemy territory with different language spoken away from home etc.... and given in CE universe mars is a habitable planet so it is plausible destination to hide. so why the silly remark?


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Originally Posted by monstert View Post
So your complaint basically is about gundams being fictional stories (and yes, this applies to all gundam universes). Well done there, sir.

If this is real life, teenagers wouldn't get to operate the military's best weapons. And all those kids going all the way back to MSG would've been escorted out of the ship long before their respective series end.
hmm you missed the mark there... originally loled at the absurdity of CE military logic... but im glad you stated the rest for me captain obvious...

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Originally Posted by monstert View Post
Oh, and I guess Shinn would've been shot too when he returned. Except in cases where the individual had the leader's favor, as is the case with Shinn. And you can't tell me what Athrun did was worse than what Shinn did.
Your coming across if i favor shinn over athrun... if it was me ill line both of them up infront a fire squad.

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Originally Posted by monstert View Post
Just because they're speculation, doesn't mean that all possible answers have the same validity..
Hiyas captain obvious

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Originally Posted by monstert View Post
CE's logic is fine within the context of its universe. It doesn't fail any more than UC or other gundam universes.
That is your opinion but my opinion happens to be different to yours.. lucky me
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Old 2010-05-01, 08:04   Link #1585
monster
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Originally Posted by winter45 View Post
Like athrun, shinn would be likely be hunted down by zaft but this reply is already obvious.

Deserting in general is not a good practice.. Best not to get caught in the process.
Oh, so I suppose you're the one to tell whether or not Shinn gets caught.
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Hmm guess never occurred to you deserters have been recorded to desert in foreign lands in enemy territory with different language spoken away from home etc.... and given in CE universe mars is a habitable planet so it is plausible destination to hide. so why the silly remark?
This is getting absurd, you're talking about a different planet. How is a deserter like Shinn with no friends going to get there?

Really, winter45, I can't believe you're even suggesting this.
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hmm you missed the mark there... originally loled at the absurdity of CE military logic... but im glad you stated the rest for me captain obvious...
So you're laughing at the absurdity of gundam logic? And this coming from a person who suggests a guy like Shinn should just go to Mars like it's the most obvious thing to do? Well that's pretty funny, but in the end, laughing at CE for being a gundam show doesn't really mean much in this thread.
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Old 2010-05-01, 08:13   Link #1586
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Shinn should just go to Mars like it's the most obvious thing to do?
Between that and taking an injured Kira to Lacus in PLANT, when Orb was nearer I'd think the former is actually looking like a better deal.
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Old 2010-05-01, 08:17   Link #1587
monster
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Originally Posted by aeriolewinters View Post
Between that and taking an injured Kira to Lacus in PLANT, when Orb was nearer I'd think the former is actually looking like a better deal.
No, Malchio was going to PLANTs. Why would he go to Orb?
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Old 2010-05-01, 08:18   Link #1588
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1 I have nothing to do with shinn getting caught or not... y are you suggesting that i have the power to do so?

2 Its CE bud.. anything can happen just need to put a weak plot, a crappy story writer and insert music theme... Walla!!! $hit happens...

3 Correction my good friend.... loling at CE military logic pls get it right next time. in regards to shinn should go to mars... read my point 2
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Old 2010-05-01, 08:19   Link #1589
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No, the reverend was going to PLANTs. Why would he go to Orb?
Maybe because he has a recovering person around him, so it would make sense for him to bring Kira to the closest hospital or doctor...
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Old 2010-05-01, 08:26   Link #1590
monster
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Originally Posted by winter45 View Post
1 I have nothing to do with shinn getting caught or not... y are you suggesting that i have the power to do so?
Because you seem to think that Shinn would be fine if he just deserted.
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2 Its CE bud.. anything can happen just need to put a weak plot, a crappy story writer and insert music theme... Walla!!! $hit happens...
Wow, your view is really warped if that's what you think.
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3 Correction my good friend.... loling at CE military logic pls get it right next time. in regards to shinn should go to mars... read my point 2
Correction, the same logic you're laughing at is the same logic that puts children and teenagers on these warships from UC to AD.

And don't tell me you disagree now because just earlier you called me on being obvious on this point.
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Old 2010-05-01, 08:30   Link #1591
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Originally Posted by aeriolewinters View Post
Maybe because he has a recovering person around him, so it would make sense for him to bring Kira to the closest hospital or doctor...
Except he's going to PLANTs, which means he's associating with ZAFT. So there's more to consider where to go than just the closest place. Besides, there's no reason to think Kira isn't being treated while on the way.

And at least, going to PLANTs is obviously more plausible than Shinn alone going to Mars. So the former is certainly a better deal than the latter.
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Old 2010-05-01, 08:38   Link #1592
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And at least, going to PLANTs is obviously more plausible than Shinn alone going to Mars. So the former is certainly a better deal than the latter.
I think you're misinterpreting Shinn going alone, I'd think that the idea is that he'll leave for Mars alone, but eventually meet people along the way there.

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Except he's going to PLANTs, which means he's associating with ZAFT. So there's more to consider where to go than just the closest place. Besides, there's no reason to think Kira isn't being treated while on the way.
So taking him to PLANT was infinitely better than taking him to a hospital and waiting until he recovers, and then ask him what to do next? wouldn't this be the better idea?
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Old 2010-05-01, 08:42   Link #1593
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I think you're misinterpreting Shinn going alone, I'd think that the idea is that he'll leave for Mars alone, but eventually meet people along the way there.
Well that's just more speculation that we don't need. And since the world is in a state of war, the chance of Shinn finding a way to go from a war torn Europe to Mars before being caught by either side is pretty slim.
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Old 2010-05-01, 08:44   Link #1594
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Well that's just more speculation that we don't need. And since the world is in a state of war, the chance of Shinn finding a way to go from a war torn Europe to Mars before being caught by either side is pretty slim.
Yeah, as much as Kira surviving 3475735-675 more explosions.
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Old 2010-05-01, 08:44   Link #1595
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Because you seem to think that Shinn would be fine if he just deserted.
never did.... only stated the option of deserting.. never once did i say or implied that he would be fine. That is your assumption otherwise.

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Correction, the same logic you're laughing at is the same logic that puts children and teenagers on these warships from UC to AD.

And don't tell me you disagree now because just earlier you called me on being obvious on this point.
Did you know children served on Brittish warships in the 1700 centuary at the age of 8? some of these children survived the wars and became junior officers in their early teenage life.

So why would i lol at the concept of teenagers or kids fighting in wars when history has shown this does happen? Did you also know some nations around the world have conscription at the age of 15?

Why would i lol at real military logic when it does occur in rl?

ill let you in a true story... i even shot at a 14 year old boy who wore a uniform when i was deployed overseas.. (obviously i didnt know till he surrendered)



So if your gonna reply, better find something else to attack me with, arguing me on my strong point in military field specifically the army is not going to go well with you..



Have a nice day

Actually even better... this isnt getting any healthier.. so feel free to reply if you wish, but im stopping at this point.

Last edited by winter45; 2010-05-01 at 09:01.
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Old 2010-05-01, 09:09   Link #1596
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Originally Posted by aeriolewinters View Post
So taking him to PLANT was infinitely better than taking him to a hospital and waiting until he recovers, and then ask him what to do next? wouldn't this be the better idea?
It might not be infinitely better, but it's way more plausible, so yes it's better.
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Yeah, as much as Kira surviving 3475735-675 more explosions.
Well, since Kira himself never exploded or be in an explosion that many times, him surving still has a better chance.
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Originally Posted by winter45 View Post
never did.... only stated the option of deserting.. never once did i say or implied that he would be fine. That is your assumption otherwise.
Saying that Shinn chose the hardest path by returning do imply that he would be fine if he deserted. Please try to remember what you posted.
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Did you know children served on Brittish warships in the 1700 centuary at the age of 8? some of these children survived the wars and became junior officers in their early teenage life.

So why would i lol at the concept of teenagers or kids fighting in wars when history has shown this does happen? Did you also know some nations around the world have conscription at the age of 15?

Why would i lol at real military logic when it does occur in rl?

ill let you in a true story... i even shot at a 14 year old boy who wore a uniform when i was deployed overseas.. (obviously i didnt know till he surrendered)



So if your gonna reply, better find something else to attack me with, arguing me on my strong point in military field specifically the army is not going to go well with you..



Have a nice day
Yeah, and how many of those kids were as influential in a world war as these gundams kids, go around beating enemy aces without having a formal training in battle, and be better suited to operate high tech weapons than adult soldiers?
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Old 2010-05-01, 10:28   Link #1597
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So what is the problem? By the time Dullindal learned about it, Athrun was about to be captured. But before then, there was no reason for Athrun to be detained like Shinn.
You make it sound as if it's a solid fact that Durandal had already sent to men to take Athrun into custody before he got the report from Rey and while we don't know when the order was given we do know that the men to take Athrun into custody until arrived after Meer had eavesdropped on Rey and Durandal meeting and had gotten there to warn him. Personaly I think the meeting with Kira was probably the straw that broke the camels back.
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Old 2010-05-01, 11:08   Link #1598
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You make it sound as if it's a solid fact that Durandal had already sent to men to take Athrun into custody before he got the report from Rey
No, that's not what I meant. Sorry if I wasn't clear. What I meant to say was that after we know for sure that Dullindal knows about it, we had soldiers being sent to capture Athrun. But before that, there's no reason to assume any of this would've been necessary.
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and while we don't know when the order was given we do know that the men to take Athrun into custody until arrived after Meer had eavesdropped on Rey and Durandal meeting and had gotten there to warn him. Personaly I think the meeting with Kira was probably the straw that broke the camels back.
You do realize that there's a lot of gap between those two events? Dullindal was even prepared to give Legend to Athrun.
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Old 2010-05-01, 11:52   Link #1599
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You do realize that there's a lot of gap between those two events? Dullindal was even prepared to give Legend to Athrun.
Just so I'm clear and we don't endup going around again over nothing what gap are you talking about.
Because at then end of episode 35 we get our first look at the Legend and Destiny when Durandal meets with Shinn and Athrun and tells them the new machines are theirs. Episode 36 we get at little bit more of Durandal, Shinn, and Athrun talking, followed by Durandal and Rey's meeting and then the attempted arrest of Athrun.
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Old 2010-05-01, 13:40   Link #1600
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Just so I'm clear and we don't endup going around again over nothing what gap are you talking about.
Because at then end of episode 35 we get our first look at the Legend and Destiny when Durandal meets with Shinn and Athrun and tells them the new machines are theirs. Episode 36 we get at little bit more of Durandal, Shinn, and Athrun talking, followed by Durandal and Rey's meeting and then the attempted arrest of Athrun.
I'm talking about the gap between when Athrun met with Cagalli and Kira and phase 36.

There are two cases to consider here:

1. Dullindal knew about the meeting before phase 36. If this is so, then he had chosen not to act against Athrun for whatever reason.

2. Dullindal found out at phase 36 and then ordered for Athrun's arrest (which may or may not be related to the meeting).

Whichever case you choose, it still gives a reason for why Athrun was not detained before phase 36.
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