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Old 2008-06-17, 08:54   Link #181
Hov
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Does anyone besides me think that there's a relation between Ichigo and Hiroyi's hollowfication? Being that both are the only 2 masks with red markings, and they both took the longest to defeat their inner hollow?
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Old 2008-06-17, 09:53   Link #182
X207
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is ichigo capable of using cero when he has his hollow mask on while the hollow is supressed within?
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Old 2008-06-17, 10:21   Link #183
HiroInazuma
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Originally Posted by X207 View Post
is ichigo capable of using cero when he has his hollow mask on while the hollow is supressed within?
We have only seen him use a cero once and he was in full hollow form but it is possible that he could use the cero with his mask on but just doesn't know how. It would be cool if we saw Ichigo use a Grand Rey Cero mixed with a getsuga tenshou
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Old 2008-06-17, 15:08   Link #184
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Originally Posted by HiroInazuma View Post
We have only seen him use a cero once and he was in full hollow form but it is possible that he could use the cero with his mask on but just doesn't know how. It would be cool if we saw Ichigo use a Grand Rey Cero mixed with a getsuga tenshou
GRAND REY TENSHOU!!!
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Old 2008-06-17, 17:47   Link #185
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Originally Posted by X207 View Post
is ichigo capable of using cero when he has his hollow mask on while the hollow is supressed within?
Shinji used a cero against grimmjow so I'm sure Ichigo and the rest could.
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Old 2008-06-18, 00:05   Link #186
X207
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ty HiroInazuma, Hov. i wonder if cero will be one of the next few power upgrades. ichigo hollow+ grand rey cero=

also, when did shinji use a cero vs grimmjow?
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Old 2008-06-18, 11:38   Link #187
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Originally Posted by X207 View Post
ty HiroInazuma, Hov. i wonder if cero will be one of the next few power upgrades. ichigo hollow+ grand rey cero=

also, when did shinji use a cero vs grimmjow?
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Old 2008-06-18, 11:54   Link #188
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ty very much, i often forget such details when it comes to a long manga/anime series.
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Old 2008-12-14, 22:54   Link #189
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This is waaaayyy off the topic, but who do you think would win in a fight to the death? Shinji or Aizen? my votes on S:hinji.
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Old 2009-02-21, 17:33   Link #190
hakisak
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This was born from a discussion/debate, because I said three things…;

If Ichigo himself cannot beat Ulquiorra, than neither will his hollow be able to.
Ichigo is the strongest character in Bleach right now as he is. He just happens to be the strongest character with the LEAST experience.

Ichigo does not have unreasonable power-ups-he doesn’t power up at all. He is already strong, it because of a seal. He cannot fully use them. If he’s seen getting stronger it’s because he unconsciously released that seal. Either that, or it’s more of his immense powers has come out, because even that seal is not enough to hold it all in (KT has explained how his powers work already.)




There seems to be a big misconception when it comes to Ichigo's power, his hollow powers in general.



I notice people keep saying that Ichigo needs to win on his own. Or his hollow needs to fight for him. People talk about Oigichi as if he is separate entity from Ichigo and if he comes out and win. It won't truly be Ichigo's win.


This disturbs me, because Oigichi and Ichigo's relationship IS NOT symbiotic. Oigichi is just an alter ego. When you are looking at him, or Zangetsu you are looking at Ichigo-- Just another form. Zangetsu is Ichigo's character—the part of him that is the noble and selfless hero. Ogichi is his battle instinct--and the part of him that says "I need five ambulances because ...we'll have five dead bodies" before he kicks someone's ass.

When he is talking to them, he is just meditating and having a talk with his own self, they are his power, born from his "True Spirit".

Because Ichigo character design is simple, I don’t think anyone but true Ichigo fans realize that he is not only the strongest character as he is right now. His character is also the most complex.


It also makes me wonder if people realize , Bleach is actually a story of “The Journey of Self Discovery’” disguised as an action Manga.

Because Ichigo’s powers can walk and talk, whenever we discuss power levels,Naruto is always mentioned.

I also noticed that it is often compared to Naruto because of just that at times, without people realizing why..(Self Discovery)
Though they have many similarities, the differences between the two manga’s are…

Naruto’s Characters have a set of pre-designed moves that are hidden and you have to find them
Bleach Characters : –Shinigami; Ichigo’s powers especially ,are not.


The reason I prefer Bleach over Naruto is...;


Bleach’s Shinigami powers do not work for you.--Just because they are your powers; and you find them.


They are representation of your true self. In other words they are truly not alive they are just the avatars for your “Living Will”.
Once you unlock your powers, you have to figure out what they are. The only way to accomplish this goal, is through self discovery


Zangetsu and Ogichi (The avatars only; The Old Man and the White Version of Ichigo) have two roles.

~One of them is, they function as guides and not teachers. They are there to guide you on while; you on the path, but only you can choose which path you seek.


~Their second role took is take on the form, of whatever it is he needs to use to succeed in life. When you figure out what is in life you want to achieve-a new ability that suits only you, is created.

It’s just in order to succeed, he has to know exactly what it are he wants and what he needs to get it.

These new tools/weapons are created to help you accomplish this task.

This is the reason they cannot tell him anything; only Ichigo can tell Ichigo can tell Ichigo about Ichigo.

Only Ichigo can figure out what it is he needs, in order to succeed in life and be happy.

He does not always need them to do this and this why we do not always see them when he’s seemingly, had a power-up.
If he figures this out on his own, he does not need a guide and can make use of his powers on his own (The unreasonable power-ups) it is when he cannot figure out what part he needs to change.


When he cannot find the pieces of his heart that are fragmented due to his emotional issues own his own. The ones that hinder him, the ones that need repairing , it is then he unconsciously seeks out the avatars, to guide him.



After he’d lost them, Ichigo wanted to regain Shinigami powers for a selfish reason. Because of this he believed he had to learn about, just because he needed them to save Rukia. Because this was selfish in nature, his powers would not fully cooperate with him.

~As a result Zangetsu broke---during a fight with Zaraki. Zaraki represents a part of Ichigo’s own character that he needed to change.


It was when he realized that he didn’t just want his powers for his own selfish reason that he actually wanted to know about them. He was given another chance.

If you noticed , he didn’t learn anything about them at all; instead we learned something about Ichigo. (After being told his failings by Ogichi who is also an image of Ichigo’s inner turmoil)

The questions he asked, Zangetsu were really self-exploratory in nature.

“I wanna know… Can you tell me old man Zangetsu? Just a little at time… Things about you. … I wanna know about you who give me strength. And one more time…you and me, fight together!”

He realized he not only needed his powers to save Rukia, he needed them to find himself. He asked for another chance to do so. Once this understood, he was given another chance; and a new ability was created. Zangetsu cauterized his wounds, and then doubled his powers.

. That is what Ichigo meant by the words

“Zanpakuto aren’t just tools, they are alive and I am fighting together, with Zangetsu.”


He is Zangetsu, and Zangetsu is Ichigo…he is alive because that is the manifestation of “Ichigo’s true heart, his soul—his character”
It was also then Zangetsu, told you about Ichigo.

“When your heart is in chaos, the sky becomes cloudy. When you are said the rain falls easily”
“I hate the rain. … Ichigo Rain falls in this world too. ..Can you understand the horror of being pelted by rain in a solitary world”

That statement is representative of the, feelings of isolation, loneliness, and depression all of which Ichigo suffers from

~He also told Ichigo that if he will believe in himself, if he has confidence in his own abilities instead of concentrating on his failings and feelings of misery. There was nothing he couldn’t do and thus he’d never be unhappy. As evidenced by the statement

“ If only to stop that rain, I shall lend you any strength”

*******

Another example that I can present to you, my theory is correct, is the rest of
Ichigo’s statements.
“You who will never believe in anything but his own strength will never understand that”
“Your sword hasn’t got a name? Then your sword can’t get any stronger…that’s a relief” (Ichigo was not confident, his own skill was enough to win)

Zaraki suffers from self doubt. It is why he cannot speak to his sword. The reason he cannot hear the name of his sword, is because he doubts such a thing exists. This is actually an example of self doubt. Despite what he says, he doesn’t not truly believe himself, so his unable to fully use his powers. (Because he has his own issues, but this not about him)

Zaraki ‘s character is literally a representation of one of Ichigo’s own faults.


The earliest evidence; that I can present that the my ENTIRE theory is correct, is
Ichigo’s fight with Ishida.

~Ichigo allowed himself to be goaded into that fight with Ishida for a selfish reason. He agreed to fight he didn’t really want because of injured pride.

~The costs of his being led by his pride, people’s lives were put in danger.


When he realized the situation was his created because of his own selfishness. Through that selfishness he would be inflicting the very suffering on others , that he himself, is plagued by…He decided to atone for that, even if it was at the cost of his own life.

It was because this was Ichigo’s own problem he needed to overcome. His own powers were needed, so the seal that held them in was broken, and the move Getsuga Tensho was born.

Ichigo was able to gain redemption through his action, but it was not without cost to him. He was punished because he chose to kill hollows for a selfish reason and not because he wanted to save anyone. As result his own powers ripped him apart.

However, no good deed goes unrewarded, if it was done as an act of selflessness.

~This time he wanted killed hollows to protect others, and not for his own satisfaction.

As result a he was rewarded and Ishida saves him at the cost of his own life because he had also done the very same thing.

Ishida’s punishment was realizing that he was the image of the very thing he hated.

This is an really an example of displaced anger and self hatred (Which Ichigo also suffers from) For Ishida this was punishment enough and he was able to gain atonement at the cost of his own life—by saving Ichigo’s.

The reason Ichigo cannot beat Ulquiorra as of right now. He has not yet, realized his true desires.


This is the first step to understanding how Ichigo’s powers function and when I come back. I will show you how I applied all the above, as a way to measure power-up’s and look at “The faucet” explanation once again.
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Old 2009-02-21, 17:50   Link #191
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Again, serious business, am I right?
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Old 2009-02-21, 18:04   Link #192
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I am an otaku...P
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Old 2009-02-21, 18:04   Link #193
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Best that you learn the MST3K Mantra, then.
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Old 2009-02-21, 18:30   Link #194
Sabaku Kyu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hakisak View Post
If Ichigo himself cannot beat Ulquiorra, than neither will his hollow be able to.
Ichigo is the strongest character in Bleach right now as he is. He just happens to be the strongest character with the LEAST experience.

Ichigo does not have unreasonable power-ups-he doesn’t power up at all. He is already strong, it because of a seal. He cannot fully use them. If he’s seen getting stronger it’s because he unconsciously released that seal. Either that, or it’s more of his immense powers has come out, because even that seal is not enough to hold it all in (KT has explained how his powers work already.)
Unconsciously releasing power is still a power-up, "power-up" is just a generic term to describe any sudden leap in strength or ability, whether it's calling on supernatural force, the result of an intense training arc, or just releasing hidden potential (the "Gohan effect").

I agree that Ichigo may have tons of power he has yet to tap, but nowhere in the manga will you actually find it stated that he possesses the strongest powers. The only people Ichigo's been directly compared to in terms of raw power are Zaraki and Ulqiorria and both of them only vaguely labeled Ichigo's power as somewhere above their own.

Quote:
This disturbs me, because Oigichi and Ichigo's relationship IS NOT symbiotic. Oigichi is just an alter ego. When you are looking at him, or Zangetsu you are looking at Ichigo-- Just another form. Zangetsu is Ichigo's character—the part of him that is the noble and selfless hero. Ogichi is his battle instinct--and the part of him that says "I need five ambulances because ...we'll have five dead bodies" before he kicks someone's ass.

When he is talking to them, he is just meditating and having a talk with his own self, they are his power, born from his "True Spirit".
What? It's been shown many times that zanpakuto's aren't alter-egos. Zabimaru, Houyrinmaru and the other zanpakuto's are separate entities from the shinigami they guide. Tousen's zanpakuto originally belonged another shinigami. Heck, Urahara's zanpakuto is female, if that's his alter-ego then he has some serious identity issues.

It's true that zanpakutos seem only to be able to communicate with the shinigami who own them (except in special cases like Ichigo's bankai training) and that they are linked to the shinigami's pysche, sometimes they even exhibit similar behavior (Yumichika and Matsumoto's zanpakuto) but they aren't merely " split personalities". Hichigo's case isn't as clear, but I'm guessing it's similar.

Quote:
Zaraki suffers from self doubt. It is why he cannot speak to his sword. The reason he cannot hear the name of his sword, is because he doubts such a thing exists. This is actually an example of self doubt. Despite what he says, he doesn’t not truly believe himself, so his unable to fully use his powers. (Because he has his own issues, but this not about him)

Zaraki ‘s character is literally a representation of one of Ichigo’s own faults.
Actually, It's the opposite. Kenpachi can't use his zanpakuto because he believes only in himself. He couldn't use his zanpakuto (and didn't want to) because he viewed using a sword as a partner as opposed to a tool for killing as weak and believed that relying only on one's personal strength was the ultimate form of fighting. That was the fault he represented in Ichigo who still largely viewed Zangetsu as weapon rather than a comrade at that point.
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Last edited by Sabaku Kyu; 2009-02-21 at 22:34. Reason: actually, there's no need for spoiler tag
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Old 2009-02-21, 18:34   Link #195
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
Don't forget yer spoiler tabs, this isn't a Manga thread...



Unconsciously releasing power is still a power-up, "power-up" is just a generic term to describe any sudden leap in strength, whether it's calling on supernatural force, the result of an intense training arc, or just releasing hidden potential (the "Gohan effect").

I agree that Ichigo may have tons of power he has yet to tap, but nowhere in the manga will you actually find it stated that he possesses the strongest powers. The only people Ichigo's been directly compared to in terms of raw power are Zaraki and Ulqiorria and both of them only vaguely labeled Ichigo's power as somewhere above their own.





What? It's been shown many times that zanpakuto's aren't alter-egos. Zabimaru, Houyrinmaru and the other zanpakuto's are separate entities from the shinigami they guide. Tousen's zanpakuto originally belonged another shinigami. Heck, Urahara's zanpakuto is female, if that's his alter-ego then he has some serious identity issues. It's true that zanpakutos seem only to be able to communicate with the shinigami who own them (except in special cases like Ichigo's bankai training) and that they are linked to the shingami's pysche, but they aren't merely "personalities"



Actually, It's the opposite. Kenpachi can't use his zanpakuto because he believes only in himself. He couldn't use his zanpakuto (and didn't want to) because he viewed using a sword as a partner as opposed to a tool for killing as weak and believed that relying only on one's personal strength was the ultimate form of fighting. That was the fault he represented in Ichigo who still largely viewed Zangetsu as weapon rather than a comrade at that point.
My sentiments exactly, just lacked how I could put it in words.
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Old 2009-02-21, 23:32   Link #196
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@ Kyu.. Dude I am not finished...I have to paint. Hahaha...it's just you have to have the basic understanding of how his powers work, before you can measure his power level against others.

I notice people really don't understand them---

I don't believe he is strong because I like him...I love him because he's HELLA STRONG.

When I see Zangetsu and Ogichi...I can only see Ichigo. There is no separation of characters...that is the problem a lot of people have....which keeps them from seeing just how great his powers are because they aren't always housed in the same form. (When you see them)

Damn it! They found out I am at the computer....

GTG!
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Old 2009-02-22, 21:30   Link #197
Sabaku Kyu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hakisak
When I see Zangetsu and Ogichi...I can only see Ichigo. There is no separation of characters...that is the problem a lot of people have....which keeps them from seeing just how great his powers are because they aren't always housed in the same form. (When you see them)
I agree that Zangetsu and Hichigo's powers are both part of Ichigo's strength.

But separate character or alter-ego, Hichigo doesn't represent Ichigo's true will. He's dangerous and there's no telling what exactly he'll do when he's in control. That's why there's a difference in which one is fighting. The whole point of the vizard training was so that Hichigo wouldn't have to be in control in order for Ichigo to use his full power. If he depended on Hichigo to win a fight, it would be a regression. A victory for the hollow, not Ichigo himself.
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Old 2009-02-23, 22:29   Link #198
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Spoiler for 346/ not animated:

Last edited by hakisak; 2009-02-23 at 22:45.
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Old 2009-02-24, 12:31   Link #199
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Spoiler for THIS IS THE RIGHT THREAD!--MANGA SPOILERS:
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Old 2009-02-24, 13:05   Link #200
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Spoiler for same as above:
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