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Old 2006-01-03, 15:02   Link #21
Soluzar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoSanninWa
I'm not sure why you think that this was a betrayal by Zangetsu, even if you assume that Zangetsu is opposed to hollow-Ichigo. Obviously it is good for Ichigo to become stronger, even if hollow-Ichigo also wants it.
I don't see how anyone could see it as anything other than a betrayal. Hollow-Ichigo is plotting against Shinigami-Ichigo, with the co-operation of Zangetsu. What more can there be to say?

Quote:
This is one thing that both Ichigo and hollow-Ichigo can equally benefit from. It has no bearing on who gets that strength in the end.
This is true, but I think it was fairly clear in context that Zangetsu is co-operating with Hollow-Ichigo. If nothing else, he should have told Shinigami-Ichigo that the Hollow-Ichigo existed. It's always going to be betrayal in my eyes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSmallOne
Besides Zangetsu isn't a real person for himself, he is just a part of Ichigo('s soul), so he can't really betray Ichigo in the first place, because it would be betraying himself.
The "inner hollow" is also Ichigo! Theay are basically all the same person, just a little bit different aspects of it.
I don't accept that premise, and never have. The hollow is a separate individual, as is Zangetsu. I'm utterly convinced of that. It just doesn't make sense for the Zanpakuto to be a part of the Shinigami. I'm aware that this is what they believe, but who said it was true?
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Old 2006-01-03, 16:18   Link #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soluzar
I don't see how anyone could see it as anything other than a betrayal. Hollow-Ichigo is plotting against Shinigami-Ichigo, with the co-operation of Zangetsu. What more can there be to say?

This is true, but I think it was fairly clear in context that Zangetsu is co-operating with Hollow-Ichigo. If nothing else, he should have told Shinigami-Ichigo that the Hollow-Ichigo existed. It's always going to be betrayal in my eyes.


I don't accept that premise, and never have. The hollow is a separate individual, as is Zangetsu. I'm utterly convinced of that. It just doesn't make sense for the Zanpakuto to be a part of the Shinigami. I'm aware that this is what they believe, but who said it was true?

Why not agree to disagree.


Say, the soul of true Zanpakuto are born from the Shinigami that holds it, and then becomes its own personality.


That way you cover the independt creature, as well as its connection to the Shinigami
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Old 2006-01-03, 19:12   Link #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Komataguri
Why not agree to disagree.
But of course! There is no disagreement like an amiable disagreement. ^_^


Quote:
Say, the soul of true Zanpakuto are born from the Shinigami that holds it, and then becomes its own personality.
That's what I believe, sure enough. I believe that the Zanpakuto is a part of the Shinigami, but I don't believe that the Zanpakuto is just a "multiple personality" of the Shinigamu. I think that it may have separate goals, and different beliefs to the Shinigami from which it came. Check out Kenpachi. His Zanpakuto probably hates him.
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Old 2006-01-03, 23:49   Link #24
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As I recall, the zanpakutou isn't a separate entity but instead a reflection of the person's soul. The Shikai form is the embodiment of that reflection and then the Bankai form is the reflection of the concious individual.

It's like concious and subconcious, the sword's avatar is the subconcious and the shikai is it's embodiment. The Bankai is the embodiment of the conciousness.

edit - I believe hollow forms are simply the darkness to normal shinigami's light... Keeping in mind that perceptions of good and evil are vastly different from person to person... So what Happened with hollow-ichi and byakuya was the striking of the balance between dark and light, the yin and the yang. You can take your imagination from there~
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Old 2006-01-04, 02:54   Link #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inkognito
As I recall, the zanpakutou isn't a separate entity but instead a reflection of the person's soul. The Shikai form is the embodiment of that reflection and then the Bankai form is the reflection of the concious individual.

It's like concious and subconcious, the sword's avatar is the subconcious and the shikai is it's embodiment. The Bankai is the embodiment of the conciousness.

edit - I believe hollow forms are simply the darkness to normal shinigami's light... Keeping in mind that perceptions of good and evil are vastly different from person to person... So what Happened with hollow-ichi and byakuya was the striking of the balance between dark and light, the yin and the yang. You can take your imagination from there~
That may be what the Shinigami believe - who says they know everything about it? I just don't buy any of that. You can't just keep repeating it and expect me to buy it. I re-state my position once and for all: Zangetsu has a separate personality. It is self-evident.
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Old 2006-01-04, 15:26   Link #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Small One
He may have a seperate personality, but he is not a seperate individual, because he has no soul for himself. He is just a part of Ichigo.
It's like the little voices you hear inside your head, when you have to make an important decision.

Beeing a part of Ichigo, and having an own personality are two compltely independent aspects, but you are treating it as beeing the same.
Proof. I won't accept hearsay. There isn't any conclusive proof either way. What we have been told is merely what the Shinigami believe, and I don't accept that they are infallible. There's no way for you to win this one. The only answer is for you to accept that we differ. Your unsupported statements do not convince me.
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Old 2006-01-04, 19:33   Link #27
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Quote:
That may be what the Shinigami believe - who says they know everything about it? I just don't buy any of that. You can't just keep repeating it and expect me to buy it. I re-state my position once and for all: Zangetsu has a separate personality. It is self-evident.
Are you familiar with the concept of Occam's Razor?
Quote:
Occam's Razor (also spelled Ockham's Razor), is a principle attributed to the 14th-century English logician and Franciscan friar, William of Ockham. It forms the basis of methodological reductionism, also called the principle of parsimony or law of economy.

In its simplest form, Occam's Razor states that one should make no more assumptions than needed. Put into everyday language, it says

Numquam ponendo est pluritas sine necessitate. [Latin]
which translates to:

Multiples should never be used if not necessary.
or

"Shave off" (omit) unnecessary entities in explanations.
But a more commonly used translation is:

Given two equally predictive theories, choose the simpler.
For example, after a storm you notice that a tree has fallen. Based on the evidence of the storm and the fallen tree, a reasonable hypothesis would be that the storm blew down the tree — a hypothesis that requires you to suspend your disbelief very little, as there exist strong logical connections binding what you already know to this solution (seeing and hearing storms tends to indeed indicate the existence of storms; storms are more than capable of felling trees). A rival hypothesis claiming that the tree was knocked over by marauding 200-metre tall space aliens requires several additional assumptions, with various logical weaknesses resulting from inconsistencies with what is already known (concerning the very existence of aliens, their ability and desire to travel interstellar distances, their ability and desire to (non-)intentionally knock down trees and the alien biology that allows them to be 200 metres tall in terrestrial gravity), and is therefore less preferred.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_Razor

Using the Occam's Razor principle, the fact that we have been told and the fact that this is a shounen, the simplest way of interpreting the ichigo-zangetsu relationship is to go by what we are told. If you assume anything else you are very possibly reading far too into a manga/anime that is meant to entertain, not stimulate deep though and confuse. Assuming too much and ignoring what information has been given to us is absolute folly. If we are told what the relationship between ichigo and zangetsu is, I highly doubt we're being lied to.
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Old 2006-01-05, 00:57   Link #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Inkognito
Using the Occam's Razor principle, the fact that we have been told and the fact that this is a shounen, the simplest way of interpreting the ichigo-zangetsu relationship is to go by what we are told. If you assume anything else you are very possibly reading far too into a manga/anime that is meant to entertain, not stimulate deep though and confuse. Assuming too much and ignoring what information has been given to us is absolute folly. If we are told what the relationship between ichigo and zangetsu is, I highly doubt we're being lied to.
You are more than welcome to continue believing that. However, this series has constantly shown that it is more than just the average Shounen. You cannot convince me, and nor can anyone else. Stop trying.

I'm entirely familiar with Occam's Razor, but going on the observed evidence, that Zangetsu has clearly different motivations and plans than Ichigo, and that Zangetsu knows things that Ichigo does not, I can clearly see what the simplest answer is. Can you? I don't deny that the Shinigami and his Zanpakuto are linked in some extremely profound kind of a way, but I don't accept that the personality of the Zanpakuto is just an aspect of the Shinigami. I find no conclusive evidence to suggest that I should accept this premise. It's an extremely valid narrative device to have characters feeding the viewer with information which they believe to be true, but which may not, in fact, be true.

What I find hard to believe is that I just got a negrep for my posting in this thread. You know, this forum is rapidly starting to lose all appeal. if members are going to negrep me just for disagreeing with them, then that's pretty lame. Whoever you are, I hope you're impressed with yourself.
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Old 2006-01-05, 05:14   Link #29
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I dont believe in Soluzar's point of view, but you might wonder why is it that Ichigo got himself a old, weird guy with a beard, who looks like a hippie, to represent his soul thingie, really, how messed up must you be.

Zangetsu strike me as very old, much older then Ichigo, as if he had lived for thousand and thousands of years before Ichigo came along, and in that time he ponders, and have decided that the grunge hippie look is the ultimate look.
But then again a disorderly personality can be whatever he wants to be.

Oh well, i say let people believe whatever they want to believe. Like me, i believe that Ichigo is gay and Zangetsu is a pervert, no proof, but i say its true.
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Old 2006-01-05, 13:30   Link #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Small One
Then stop taking part in this thread! There is no use in just repeating your opinion again and again, without the will to change it.
Well, technically, this thread is about Ichigo's powers as a hollow. The whole side-issue about Zangetsu is technically way off topic, and I am presenting reasons for my opinion. You can't convince me, because you aren't advancing any credible reasons for your opinion. Your beliefs are only supported by what a fallible character in the show has told you. Mine at least have a semblance of logic.

Quote:
Why? What reason do you have to disbelieve, that he is an aspect of Ichigo?
The fact, that he has a different personality and other motivations is no proof. Just look at people with split personalities: They have completely seperate personalities, even working against each other and still are all part of one human.
OK then. If you want to argue that Ichigo really has a split personality, then you can do so. However, I find it hard to believe that any mangaka would create himself a protagonist who is mentally ill. That would not fit in with Occam's Razor at all! It's far simpler to assume that Zanpakuto are, in fact, a separate individual. You could explain away every instance of Zanpakuto individuality by citing Multiple Personality Disorder, but that would require you to believe that every Seated Shinigami is mentally ill!

Quote:
Well, sometimes it happens that you get some neg rep... you shouldn't take it to heart. However, nobody should get negative reputation, just for disagreeing with someone. On the other hand, maybe it was your refusal to think about your opinion which brought you in this negative rep.
Hey, if anyone's not thinking about their opinion, it's you and the others who insist on believing the illogical premise that you have advanced in the face of all reason. I wouldn't normally bitch about negrep, but it's pissing me off. This forum appears to be all about groupthink, and I've never been a fan of that. I'm sorry that I re-registered, after the crash, to be blunt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gees
I dont believe in Soluzar's point of view, but you might wonder why is it that Ichigo got himself a old, weird guy with a beard, who looks like a hippie, to represent his soul thingie, really, how messed up must you be.

Zangetsu strike me as very old, much older then Ichigo, as if he had lived for thousand and thousands of years before Ichigo came along, and in that time he ponders, and have decided that the grunge hippie look is the ultimate look.
But then again a disorderly personality can be whatever he wants to be.
It's hardly conclusive evidence, but to me it is suggestive. I cannot believe that something as complex and apparently ancient as Zangetsu was created right along with Ichigo, barely 15 years ago. Thank you for at least considering my view.
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Last edited by Soluzar; 2006-01-05 at 13:41.
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Old 2006-01-05, 14:03   Link #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soluzar
You could explain away every instance of Zanpakuto individuality by citing Multiple Personality Disorder, but that would require you to believe that every Seated Shinigami is mentally ill!
You dont really have much going for you. Very few of those seated Shinigami are reasonable and sane individuals. Mayuri, Kenpachi, Yama-jii, Soi Fong and the rest dont act like normal individuals.

Nah Im just kidding. But dang ... those Shinigami arent normal logical guys!
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Old 2006-01-05, 14:38   Link #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MobiuS
You dont really have much going for you. Very few of those seated Shinigami are reasonable and sane individuals. Mayuri, Kenpachi, Yama-jii, Soi Fong and the rest dont act like normal individuals.

Nah Im just kidding. But dang ... those Shinigami arent normal logical guys!
I did think that as I wrote the comment, yeah.
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Old 2006-01-05, 16:58   Link #33
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What I don't get is that the hollow inside ichigo completely takes over control in a way where ichigo has to resist it to get control of his body back. I seriously doubt that Aizen would want to lose control of his own body and his own powers to a hollow in this way.

I think that what Aizen wants and what Ichigo has are two totally different things and quite possibly have nothing to do with each other either. Ichigo does have the innate ability of holding a lot of spirit power, so the hollow part inside of him might have been something that had been present before episode #1

Then the hollow transformation in the pit might have been one of the first reactions to it.

Also, since ichigo's mother got killed by Hollows, it might have been a reaction to that a long time ago.

But anyway I don't know and can only speculate about this as a possibility. In this case, however, there is no possible way for us to be sure how ichigo got his "hollow" powers and what they really are.

Ichigo's powers also seem to have the unique effect of awakening powers within his friends, because if I'm not mistaken it was once mentioned earlier in the anime that it was due ichigo that the others obtained their powers (apart from the archer guy, that is).
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Old 2006-01-05, 17:02   Link #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sacyn
Ichigo's powers also seem to have the unique effect of awakening powers within his friends, because if I'm not mistaken it was once mentioned earlier in the anime that it was due ichigo that the others obtained their powers (apart from the archer guy, that is).
This was indeed said of Inoue and Sado. However, this was before Ichigo went into the pit at Uruhara's store.
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Old 2006-01-05, 17:17   Link #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soluzar
This was indeed said of Inoue and Sado. However, this was before Ichigo went into the pit at Uruhara's store.
The pit thing might've just created a reaction to his powers, not necessarily activated them. In which case these same powers could've been responsible for ichigo's tremendous amound of spirit power, his ability to see hollows and death gods (which happened after his mother died, again putting emphasis that a hollow or something might have entered his soul/body/etc. at that time) and so forth.

Conflicts arise when looking at ichigo's family, who all seem to have something special concerning death gods and that Don guy (if I'm not mixing up names, but I mean that weird ghost hunter guy >.>').
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Old 2006-01-05, 18:13   Link #36
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I thinks it about time you guys read the manga. Because looking at months of fillers wont solve your questions.
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Old 2006-01-05, 18:26   Link #37
Soluzar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sacyn
The pit thing might've just created a reaction to his powers, not necessarily activated them. In which case these same powers could've been responsible for ichigo's tremendous amound of spirit power, his ability to see hollows and death gods (which happened after his mother died, again putting emphasis that a hollow or something might have entered his soul/body/etc. at that time) and so forth.
Oh yeah. Totally. What I'm saying is that Sado and Inoue both received their powers before Ichigo had any contact with his Hollow side.

Quote:
Conflicts arise when looking at ichigo's family, who all seem to have something special concerning death gods and that Don guy (if I'm not mixing up names, but I mean that weird ghost hunter guy >.>').
Don Kanonji is the name you are looking for. BWO-HAHAAHAH!

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrunkenRyder
I thinks it about time you guys read the manga. Because looking at months of fillers wont solve your questions.
I do read the manga, but I'm about 2 chapters behind due to being away from the computer a lot recently. When I read chapter 107, there hadn't been that much explained about Ichigo's powers yet. Just scraps and stuff that most anime viewers will have guessed...
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Old 2006-01-05, 21:14   Link #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sacyn
The pit thing might've just created a reaction to his powers, not necessarily activated them. In which case these same powers could've been responsible for ichigo's tremendous amound of spirit power, his ability to see hollows and death gods (which happened after his mother died, again putting emphasis that a hollow or something might have entered his soul/body/etc. at that time) and so forth.

Conflicts arise when looking at ichigo's family, who all seem to have something special concerning death gods and that Don guy (if I'm not mixing up names, but I mean that weird ghost hunter guy >.>').
Karin can see ghosts. Does SHE have a Hollow in her?
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Old 2006-01-06, 09:06   Link #39
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Well back in episode 17 Ichigo goes kinda berserk during the fight with Renji and has a personality sorta like hollow ichigo. Could this be an early sign of hollow ichigo?
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Old 2006-01-08, 10:06   Link #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MobiuS
Karin can see ghosts. Does SHE have a Hollow in her?
Anybody who has spirit power can see hollow.

Normal human does not have spirit power.
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