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View Poll Results: Rate the series (final rating)
Perfect 10 54 17.14%
9 out of 10 64 20.32%
8 out of 10 101 32.06%
7 out of 10 54 17.14%
6 out of 10 17 5.40%
5 out of 10 11 3.49%
4 out of 10 8 2.54%
3 out of 10 3 0.95%
2 out of 10 1 0.32%
1 out of 10 2 0.63%
Voters: 315. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2006-04-10, 16:31   Link #121
Vexx
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@rin-sama: No... you can say for certain, that in your opinion, it was a good show. We can all pull out our resumes (or make them up). Thats irrelevant. I think you're missing the point about "sacrificial lambs" ... girls will go down in flames, but the writing quality in how it happens determines the believability of it (and whether fans of that particular girl keep watching). As for where it misfired, my conversation with roo-boy follows...

@devilen: "she thinks that Ama hate the fact that she is a demon and would therefore rather die than remind her about her heritage" .... thats actually a bit more reasonable ... problem that isn't what she said. I contend a lot of damage could be repaired without a single change to animation with some dialog fixes to Asa's reasoning and the Kaede-Asa conversation.

@rooboy: well.... I *liked* Shuffle! up to the Kaede arc because it was fairly "light" fluff romance comedy. The Nerine/Primula arc was a bit serious but it was more of a "harem team fights to protect one of the gang" sort of serious. Sia went down in flames but the viewer could follow her mistakes and why it happened. I particularly liked Sia's arc from a writing and directing perspective. I was a bit disappointed at Nerine not getting similar treatment but they chose to focus on her and Primula's issues rather than her "game" with Rin. The whole series we're getting Asa clues from Nerine's observations and Rin's oblique comments.
Then we hit the Kaede arc .... where things went massively dark and broody. This was excellent stuff BUT in no way fit the mood of the first 16 episodes. It was seriously tragic stuff. My first reaction was the usual "wtf" but then I decided that it might get really interesting (though in a totally different way). I actually wondered if they'd swapped out the writing team. It made me reconsider Kaede's sickness episode and the bleakness of that odd little breakfast conversation early in the series where Rin tries to get her to take it easier and you can hear her strings tighten.

Then just about the time we might have gotten some Shakespearean level drama with Asa not even thinking about Kaede, someone she had almost helped raise, we get to the Asa and Kaede confrontation ... and someone let all the air out of the tires. Kaede whimpered off after Asa cried with her and proclaimed herself a monster, but not worried enough so that she was happily kissing Rin a few moments later... and "permitting Kaede to love Rin from afar"? How messed up is that? Talk about a writer mistreating their characters...

Then we got the Asa-Rin main arc. The one where Asa suddenly stops making sense "I'm going to die before I use magic because I don't want to see my mother cry" ... I guess its okay for her to cry after Asa dies...? The whole sequence had the feel of sudden character redesign, something like having Captain Kirk decide to take up knitting and cry when he has to do violent things.

Then.. after all this tumult ... in the last episode the viewers are tortured with the lowest quality animation of the series (and most offmodel drawings) along with one of the lamest "situation reset" attempts I've ever seen. I suppose we can assume they're all going for slot #2 and #3 --- but we're going to have to convince Asa that monogamy (her societal norm) is okay to toss aside for polygamy. Thank gods for the Ama-Kings encounter which almost made up for all the other nonsense... that was beautiful.

I'm a big fan of what Shuffle! could have been.. hell I bought all the figures and some of the CDs. Despite the above flaws, I did rate it a 7 for the pieces and segments that were good. But I'm still trying to figure out where they thought they were being innovative and when I compare it to other so-called "harem anime" it comes out mediocre (yes, i've seen much worse but I've also seen much better) ... it comes out worse when I throw the series into "top anime of any type" ranking. And of course, thats my opinion but I've pointed out the specific pieces that cause me to think that way.

Last edited by Vexx; 2006-04-10 at 17:20.
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Old 2006-04-10, 18:28   Link #122
rooboy
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I think a lot of you are misconstruing what I meant. I gave Shuffle a seven , based purely on entertainment value, in my opinion it's not better written than the average harem anime, but it's not worse either.
There's two kinds of trainwrecks: bad ones and entertaining ones. Shuffle was the entertaining variety. Well written? Not even the Kaede arc that seems so well-loved around here was particularly well written. That doesn't prevent it from being enjoyable or entertaining. I find people generally have a tendency to want to find evidence that indicates something they enjoy is good while something they don't is bad. Usually it's just average. It's okay to like things that are average.
To me, a rating of 7 indicates that it's a normal example of it's genre, meaning that people who like the genre should all watch it, as they'll enjoy it, people who aren't interested in the genre should probably pass on it, as there's nothing there for you. An 8 would indicate that people who have a light interest in the genre (like me and horror) should check it out, as it is a great example of it's genre (in retrospect, months later, I think I probably should have given it an 8, but I can't really change my vote now). A 9 would indicate that people who don't usually watch the genre, but are interested in anime should watch it, it's a transcendant moment for it's genre. A 10 would indicate that even people who don't normally like anime should check it out (there are a very few series that I would give a ten to, and I can't think of one harem anime in the bunch).
I thought the humor was (generally speaking) pretty funny for the first half. Once it went into full-on melodrama (it's not drama, it's melodrama, and particularly overwrought as well. The sign of all good soap opera ), I liked that too.
I loved the shtick about showing people in windows in the corners. I liked the backstory and the character designs. I liked the characters themselves. Well, excepting Kaede, but that's not because of the insanity reason as much as it is the whole "model wife/doormat" thing that I've never been particularly fond of. Actually, the insanity thing raised my interest in Kaede a great deal. I was pulling for a scene where Asa would wake up in the hospital with Kaede standing over her chanting "Kaede and Rin forever" (sort of like that scene from Magikano) with a knife in her hand in episode 20.
I own Shuffle figurines and actually went and bought the game (and Tick!Tack!), though I only ever managed to play through the Kaede and Sia arcs (translating was taking entirely too long). I think I might even still have it installed (hard drive space is rather ample on my computer).
And actually Vexx, you gave it an 8, you can click on the link to see what people voted for. I find this particularly amusing since your arguments (generally speaking, here and on other threads) seem to indicate that you graded it too high and mine (generally) seem to indicate I went too low, but I have to admit that I enjoyed Shuffle a lot despite it's flaws.

EDIT: I should point out that all of this is, obviously, in my own opinion.

EDIT 2: Dude, how can you you justify giving a capsule overview to Ama, but not to Kareha, the star of the show?
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Last edited by rooboy; 2006-04-10 at 18:52.
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Old 2006-04-10, 18:45   Link #123
Rin-Sama
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1 thing about Asa's reasoning is that everyone has their own battles in life. Asa of course was the supposed to be the logical/playful mother type, but that doesn't mean she doesn't have her own demons in life to deal with (no pun intended.) All the girls had some sort of "demon" in their lives.

Narine a seemingly timid and cute young princess has a mean temper and an enormous amount of power to wield. Plus she has had to suffer with losing her clone Lycious. That's her down side.

Primula a seemingly shy, quiet girl ended up being an artifical lifeform with an even bigger amount of power and in most cases as sick as Asa becasue she wasn't able to control her power. Nearly killed everyone at one point!

Sia a seemingly cute and energetic young princess actually turned out to have a darker more well to put it bluntly "sluttly" side to her. When in the womb she and her twin Kikyou merged to become 1 being with Sia being the domonint one.

Kaede. Oh yes seemingly helpful, cute, careing, and lovable Kaede. We all know what is wrong with her. She actually has a VERY violent psycotic side. When she doesn't feel apperiated or noticed she reverts to this state in order to get noticed. That's is a VERY dangerous girl. Even more so than a girl like Naru from Love Hina.

Ama a seemingly lovable cute mother. Yes she is all of these but she is also an artifical Life form and was forced to hide herself while in the human realm. She has only reveled her true nature to her husband and Daughter and more recently to Rin.

and finnaly Asa. Seemingly the logical motherly playful type was always there to help out either Rin or one of the girls (EX. traching Kaede and Narine how to cook) but she also hid the fact that she was a half-breed. And in Japanese culture "half-breeds" are actually looked down apon. This is one little fact that Japan has been able to hide for the most part. Think of her like being a female version of Inuyasha. Except she wants to be all human and not deamon. Asa has had to deal with being sick and knowing she's a half-breed ever since she was a little child. And it's not something she likes to talk about. That's why i beleive it's so hard for her to deal with her sickness and magical abilities. Try to see it from her point of view instead of "well if i were her" kind of view.

As for allowing Kaede to love Rin from afar i think that was nice of her to do. yeah sure it still may hurt to see Rin and Asa together, but i beleive people would have gotten even more upset if the producers had Asa just tell Kaede off and tell her to leave her man alone. ASA IS NOT LIKE THAT PEOPLE! Not every girl will allow her guy to still hang out with girls that are after his heart also you know.
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Old 2006-04-10, 19:00   Link #124
wingdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rin-Sama
Where did it misfire? I really think the producers of SHUFFLE did an exsallent job witht he anime.

I have been an anime fon for 13 years now (off an on for more than 16) and i have watched more than 170 animes so i have seen my share of good and bad animes, and i can say for certian that SHUFFLE! was a VERY good anime series.

^The amount of anime you've watched should have no bearing on this...For all we know you've watched 170 sub-par animes...Who knows? Anime for the most part are stories that you'll find comparably in movies, TV dramas and other multimedia...I won't bombard you any further because you seem to have an unshakeable love for SHUFFLE (Which is fine), but it really doesn't serve your interest to respond with "I Love Shuffle! and I've seen like 200 anime series", when someone makes a substance-heavy critique of the show...


Quote:
Asa has had to deal with being sick and knowing she's a half-breed ever since she was a little child. And it's not something she likes to talk about. That's why i beleive it's so hard for her to deal with her sickness and magical abilities. Try to see it from her point of view instead of "well if i were her" kind of view.

Yeah...For a person who had been sick their whole life it came quite a shock to Kaede and Rin (people who had known her for a while) and never seen her ever pass out or anything...They've known her for years never once did she get sick (At school she's seen as a pretty decent perfectly fine athlete aswell)...But once she gets her magical disease she's passing out every 5 seconds in every situation (Did her terminal disease just vanish for like 2, 3 years and then just came back?)...Just another illogical muse that Shuffle offers...Now I can ignore that if you can, doesn't make it any less psuedo-sensical though...
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Last edited by wingdarkness; 2006-04-10 at 19:58.
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Old 2006-04-10, 19:27   Link #125
evil-samurai
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As for allowing Kaede to love Rin from afar i think that was nice of her to do. yeah sure it still may hurt to see Rin and Asa together, but i beleive people would have gotten even more upset if the producers had Asa just tell Kaede off and tell her to leave her man alone. ASA IS NOT LIKE THAT PEOPLE! Not every girl will allow her guy to still hang out with girls that are after his heart also you know.
You cant be serous, Its NOT up to Asa to allow somone else to love Rin. That (Asa's line) is the most stupid line I've ever heard >.>

Its like me telling you, you can love me because I said so O.o and if I say you cant love me, then you cant. Love just isn't like that. Kaede might love Rin for the rest of her life and it has nothing to do with what Asa says.

Asa is not like what... well I do know that she is the last person I would want as a friend, A Backstabing Bitch friend like Asa wouldn't sit well with me.

Again its not up to Asa to Allow! Rin to hang out with the Girls.

I would Dearly Love to hear Asa go up to Primula and Say, "Back off you Cant go near Rin". Oh! the joy to see Asa get blown up into Space (though of course if we use the anime rule "everyone is nice and we live in fairly land" it might not happen)

EDIT//

@ rooboy666 love! your avatar and while other people normally say they have to have a border, I dont think so, it looks good as it is. Nice Work ^^

Last edited by evil-samurai; 2006-04-10 at 19:56.
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Old 2006-04-10, 20:25   Link #126
Vexx
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Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rooboy666
I think a lot of you are misconstruing ... even still have it installed (hard drive space is rather ample on my computer).
And actually Vexx, you gave it an 8, you can click on the link to see what people voted for. I find this particularly amusing since your arguments (generally speaking, here and on other threads) seem to indicate that you graded it too high and mine (generally) seem to indicate I went too low, but I have to admit that I enjoyed Shuffle a lot despite it's flaws.

EDIT: I should point out that all of this is, obviously, in my own opinion.

EDIT 2: Dude, how can you you justify giving a capsule overview to Ama, but not to Kareha, the star of the show?
Ah... caught my flaky memory on what I scored it. I do remember flipping tween 7 and 8 a number of times and giving it the benefit of the doubt. I loved the "arrow closeup reaction shots" ... they were the most novel thing about the series.

I *really* like your explanation of scoring 7-10, will use that for future polls as guidance. I also really can't find anything to disagree with in your post (though my post was a little harsher).

I still flip back and forth between 7 and 8, mostly because I enjoyed specific episodes... kind of like I don't dump Negima simply because I loved episode 19 and specific scenes in other episodes.

When I compare the show to, say, Canvas 2 (which waits until the last 10 seconds to implode) or Mahoraba (which I consider pretty stellar throughout minus a few scenes here and there) or (Love Hina, mostly because its an early classic -despite being a plot mess and failing to really end). It comes in kind of average as I really don't class it with things like Magikano, PPD, Azumanga, or other branches of comedy, melodrama, or romance. I do recommend it for having "elf-ear cuteness", some interesting sci-fi/magic roots, the Itsuki&Mayumi comedy hour, and a lot of pieces of nice things.
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Old 2006-04-10, 20:59   Link #127
Rin-Sama
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wingdarkness
^The amount of anime you've watched should have no bearing on this...For all we know you've watched 170 sub-par animes...Who knows? Anime for the most part are stories that you'll find comparably in movies, TV dramas and other multimedia...I won't bombard you any further because you seem to have an unshakeable love for SHUFFLE (Which is fine), but it really doesn't serve your interest to respond with "I Love Shuffle! and I've seen like 200 anime series", when someone makes a substance-heavy critique of the show...
I think it has ALOT to do with ranking SHUFFLE! I have been an anime fan longer then most people here i bet (I remember watching Robotech back in the 80's when i was very little) I mearly used my experiance to judge SHUFFLE! I've seen anime from the very good (Appleseed, Inuyasha, Ghost in the Shell) to the very horrid (Yu-gi-oh, Super Milk Chan, and Magical Do Ri Mi). You might not have been an anime fan as long as i have but once you've been a fan of anime for more than 10 years you'll have enough experance to know what make a good anime and what doesn't. SHUFFLE! From my experance is GREAT anime. I would recomend it to anyone who is old enough to watch it. And yes i still do get "gitty" when a good anime comes out.


Quote:
Originally Posted by wingdarkness
Yeah...For a person who had been sick their whole life it came quite a shock to Kaede and Rin (people who had known her for a while) and never seen her ever pass out or anything...They've known her for years never once did she get sick (At school she's seen as a pretty decent perfectly fine athlete aswell)...But once she gets her magical disease she's passing out every 5 seconds in every situation (Did her terminal disease just vanish for like 2, 3 years and then just came back?)...Just another illogical muse that Shuffle offers...Now I can ignore that if you can, doesn't make it any less psuedo-sensical though...
It's takes time for magical powers to bulid up to dangerous levels. The only reason why she was always sick when she was a child is becasue her small body wasn't strong enough to supress the side effects. But as she got older and her body bigger and stronger she was able to surpress it. (That's way she seemed normal for a long while. But she supressed it for so long it built up to dangerous levels. So when it reached critacal levels it hit her body hard and was killing her.

Think of it this way. If you boil water in a small glass with a small lid on it it will quickly blow the lid off. - This would represent Asa as a child. (Theory! - Every time Asa coughed or trembled when she was a child i think thoese were small releases of magic "pressure", OR her mother showed her how to use magic. This is probably the more like senerio becasue how else did she know how to use it to save Rin! )

But If you put water in a large pressure cooker and clamp the lid shut, it would take longer for the steam to build up, but eventually in time if you don't release the pressure it will blow. - this represents Asa when her sickness nearly killed her. That's why when she DID release her magic it erupted so brightly, causeing her hair to grow long as a side effect.

And if your thinking "well if she had so much preasure, when she DID release it why didn't it blow like when Narine blew up the Gym?" well becasue she was concentrating it onto Rin to save his life du'h!
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Old 2006-04-10, 21:52   Link #128
wingdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rin-Sama
I think it has ALOT to do with ranking SHUFFLE! I have been an anime fan longer then most people here i bet (I remember watching Robotech back in the 80's when i was very little) I mearly used my experiance to judge SHUFFLE! I've seen anime from the very good (Appleseed, Inuyasha, Ghost in the Shell) to the very horrid (Yu-gi-oh, Super Milk Chan, and Magical Do Ri Mi). You might not have been an anime fan as long as i have but once you've been a fan of anime for more than 10 years you'll have enough experance to know what make a good anime and what doesn't. SHUFFLE! From my experance is GREAT anime. I would recomend it to anyone who is old enough to watch it. And yes i still do get "gitty" when a good anime comes out.

I'm gonna bite my tounge here and not just totally go off...Trust me friend I've seen as much if not more than you...Definatley more than 10 years (eventhough that can easily be irrelevant) and still find SHUFFLE to be extremely sub-par, extremely pretentious and sporadic mess of a series with a taurd of a main character that requires mental suppression to get thru (and I dig harem anime)...One man's interesting, innovative concept is another man's idiotic mess...To mention it even in the same breath as something like GITSSAC could perhaps get your anime-card revoked (Figuring out the mysterious in that series vs. figuring out Asa would win is a joke in comparison)...No need to preach to me, as a writer I understand everything from conception to skeleton concepts to story-creation and the writers of SHuffle failed to impress me as much as they agitated me...If you think Shuffle is one of the greatest animes of all time you might wanna toss that anime experience down the nearest commode...Now I don't have a problem that you were seduced by a haremy harem and were overjoyed that the character you loved won, but spare me and everyone here the logic of them having to be atleast a 10 year or whatever veteran of anime to understand how utterly average many aspects of this program was...You could be a 100 year anime veteran or this could be your first ever show and using comon sense you could point out the flaws...Once again I've noticed that people who totally love Shuffle still acknowledge the flaws, they just care about other things, like fanservice, the girls' cuteness//interaction with one another, what they percieve as comedy, etc., (and that's fine)...


Quote:
It's takes time for magical powers to bulid up to dangerous levels. The only reason why she was always sick when she was a child is becasue her small body wasn't strong enough to supress the side effects. But as she got older and her body bigger and stronger she was able to surpress it. (That's way she seemed normal for a long while. But she supressed it for so long it built up to dangerous levels. So when it reached critacal levels it hit her body hard and was killing her.

Think of it this way. If you boil water in a small glass with a small lid on it it will quickly blow the lid off. - This would represent Asa as a child. (Theory! - Every time Asa coughed or trembled when she was a child i think thoese were small releases of magic "pressure", OR her mother showed her how to use magic. This is probably the more like senerio becasue how else did she know how to use it to save Rin! )

But If you put water in a large pressure cooker and clamp the lid shut, it would take longer for the steam to build up, but eventually in time if you don't release the pressure it will blow. - this represents Asa when her sickness nearly killed her. That's why when she DID release her magic it erupted so brightly, causeing her hair to grow long as a side effect.

And if your thinking "well if she had so much preasure, when she DID release it why didn't it blow like when Narine blew up the Gym?" well becasue she was concentrating it onto Rin to save his life du'h!
Yeah the magic disease started killing her once she realised she was in a harem anime ...It took like a hiatus to let the plot-develop o_O...So basically your trying to pass this made-up theory of yours as proof to validate something that doesn't have much validity to begin with...Whatever helps you sleep a night, I can't be swayed with pure conjecture, sorry...
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Old 2006-04-10, 22:01   Link #129
rooboy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evil-samurai
EDIT//
@ rooboy666 love! your avatar and while other people normally say they have to have a border, I dont think so, it looks good as it is. Nice Work ^^
I actually have a version with the border I made as well, but for some reason I like the way the backgrounds in that scene blend into the normal Animesuki colors. So I use the border one on my cell phone and the one without here. I'm very impressed you even noticed, most people wouldn't have. I also think I should say (since I'm getting like four or five PMs a day asking me what show it's from), that it's Magikano.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx
Ah... caught my flaky memory on what I scored it. I do remember flipping tween 7 and 8 a number of times and giving it the benefit of the doubt. I loved the "arrow closeup reaction shots" ... they were the most novel thing about the series.
Actually, I only caught you because before I posted the first time I was curious what _I_ finally scored it. Like I said, I found it particularly amusing because if you read our comments in most places, you'd think you scored it lower and I scored it higher. Which really just highlights the whole stupidity of scoring systems like this anyway. I think the arrow closeup thing might have been the most novel thing I've seen in an ero game conversion this *year* (possibly ever). Really, they're all basically the same: pretty girls, mysterious pasts and dark secrets, resolution, choice. The devil is in the details.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx
I *really* like your explanation of scoring 7-10, will use that for future polls as guidance. I also really can't find anything to disagree with in your post (though my post was a little harsher).
I had plenty to disagree with in your post, but I ended up erasing most of it when I was previewing. I've realized that Shuffle is good enough to watch again, but not good enough to waste hours on the same arguments over and over (especially when two people are essentially rating it the same).
I think the rating system I use makes sense, but I have a teaching/training background, so it's ingrained in me to think of a 7 (or 70%) as meeting requirements. Once I get into six and below we're talking about the bad outweighing the good, though I usually consider it to have entertainment value down to a five or so (one of my favorites is Final Approach, but I don't think I could rate it higher than a five). The thing I like about my rating system is it takes into account the genre, but still allows for comparison between different genres. I will admit that part of the reason I should have graded Shuffle an 8 was I didn't really take into account the level of competition, which is spectacularly poor in ero-game to anime conversions. The only one I think really deserves an 8 is Lamune, possibly Da Capo, Shuffle, and Fate/Stay Night.
I personally thought the Sia arc was the highlight of the entire show, but then I have a "thing" for red hair and aggressive girls and I have ever since I was like five.
Spoiler for Starting to get waaaaaaaaaaaaay off topic, so please skip if you're not Vexx or not interested :):

EDIT: I've watched anime for over fifteen years (yes, my posted age is correct). I can remember watching Gatchaman and some giant robot show on my local independent channel when I was seven or eight (this was before there was a FOX network, forget the WB and/or UPN), does it really matter? This whole half of the conversation has devolved into "mine's bigger than yours".

And, for the record, Shuffle has some of the best fanservice of any anime I've ever seen (discounting the PPD's and Excel Saga's of the world). Namely, the inclusion of Tsubomi, a character who serves no purpose but to please fans of the game who recognize her.

EDIT 2: As often happens, I forgot a series that I consider a 10: Planetes. I'm not really sure how I missed it, as it's also one of my absolute favorite series.
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Old 2006-04-10, 22:24   Link #130
Rin-Sama
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wingdarkness
I'm gonna bite my tounge here and not just totally go off...Trust me friend I've seen as much if not more than you...Definatley more than 10 years (eventhough that can easily be irrelevant) and still find SHUFFLE to be extremely sub-par, extremely pretentious and sporadic mess of a series with a taurd of a main character that requires mental suppression to get thru (and I dig harem anime)...One man's interesting, innovative concept is another man's idiotic mess...To mention it even in the same breath as something like GITSSAC could perhaps get your anime-card revoked (Figuring out the mysterious in that series vs. figuring out Asa would win is a joke in comparison)...No need to preach to me, as a writer I understand everything from conception to skeleton concepts to story-creation and the writers of SHuffle failed to impress me as much as they agitated me...If you think Shuffle is one of the greatest animes of all time you might wanna toss that anime experience down the nearest commode...Now I don't have a problem that you were seduced by a haremy harem and were overjoyed that the character you loved won, but spare me and everyone here the logic of them having to be atleast a 10 year or whatever veteran of anime to understand how utterly average many aspects of this program was...You could be a 100 year anime veteran or this could be your first ever show and using comon sense you could point out the flaws...Once again I've noticed that people who totally love Shuffle still acknowledge the flaws, they just care about other things, like fanservice, the girls' cuteness//interaction with one another, what they percieve as comedy, etc., (and that's fine)...
Truth be told i HATED GITSSAC and GITSI. I loved the origanl only. the other 2 ruined it. 16 years of watchin anime i think i know MORE about anime than you. I am also a writer and i ALSO know what goes into making a good story. SHUFFLE! is a good story. And i have mentioned before that NO anime is totally perfect. But the good parts of SHUFFLE! FAR out wieghed what you think are bad parts. Yes i am a fan of harem animes/mangas, but even if i wasn't i know i would have loved SHUFFLE! anyway. BTW i was just putting Ghost in the Shell and SHUFFLE! into the GOOD anime section not the bad Anime section, this was including all good animes i have seen. And if you must complin about the story, complain to Navel the makers of the game. 85% of the story line of the anime came from there. INCLUDING ASA'S SICKNESS! and i will admit that there may have been a few flaws, but EVERY anime has those. However the one's in SHUFFLE! were too minor to hurt it any.

And you need to realize this is supposed to be a friendly debate on the reasons why SHUFFLE! was good or not, there is NO NEED to insult me. (yes i know i said bad taste but it's not as far as what you said about flshing my anime experiance down the toliet.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by wingdarkness
Yeah the magic disease started killing her once she realised she was in a harem anime ...It took like a hiatus to let the plot-develop o_O...So basically your trying to pass this made-up theory of yours as proof to validate something that doesn't have much validity to begin with...Whatever helps you sleep a night, I can't be swayed with pure conjecture, sorry...
Let's hear you come up with a better reason? I think my reason is a damn good reason why Asa was sick as a child and then later in her life.
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Old 2006-04-10, 23:49   Link #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rin-Sama
Truth be told i HATED GITSSAC and GITSI. I loved the origanl only. the other 2 ruined it. 16 years of watchin anime i think i know MORE about anime than you. I am also a writer and i ALSO know what goes into making a good story. SHUFFLE! is a good story. And i have mentioned before that NO anime is totally perfect. But the good parts of SHUFFLE! FAR out wieghed what you think are bad parts. Yes i am a fan of harem animes/mangas, but even if i wasn't i know i would have loved SHUFFLE! anyway. BTW i was just putting Ghost in the Shell and SHUFFLE! into the GOOD anime section not the bad Anime section, this was including all good animes i have seen. And if you must complian about the story, complain to Navel the makers of the game. 85% of the story line of the anime came from there. INCLUDING ASA'S SICKNESS! and i will admit that there may have been a few flaws, but EVERY anime has those. However the one's in SHUFFLE! were too minor to hurt it any.

And you need to realize this is supposed to be a friendly debate on the reasons why SHUFFLE! was good or not, there is NO NEED to insult me. (yes i know i said bad taste but it's not as far as what you said about flshing my anime experiance down the toliet.)
Never meant to be insultful, but I indeed meant to be somewhat harsh...Like I said before I have no problem with anybody loving whatever they love, but don't profess your anime-intelligence or experience as a magic rabbit you pulled outta your hat to impress...Guess what I've been watching anime for 17 years (a year more than you)...Does that make my opinion or critical analysis on Shuffle more or less substantial? Not really...If your talking about slapping sense into kids who think Beybladers and Medabots are all that anime has to offer fine, but if you wanna use your anime-credentials to dispell the obvious flaws (That people who even LOVE SHUFFLE ADMIT TO) that's where I start posting-up red octagons (STOP SIGNS)...


There's a difference between complaining and having a critical discussion...I assume we're all sitting at the BIG-KIDS table so lets have a discussion like actual adults...A member like Vexx who really likes Shuffle can also put his personal feelings aside to have a debate based on critical analysis alone...I gave Shuffle a 4-5, while he gave Shuffle a 7-8 yet we still agree on many points of critical reasoning...The difference is that your debate is littered with fanboy reasonings...And me being a person that likes to debate anime topics, I refuse to engage in one that has to rely on that...You don't see me saying "Shuffle sucks" and running outta the thread like a troll or with big-lettering in my sig that says "KAEDE FTW!!!!" I choose to post because I enjoy breaking down and debating various aspects of animated shows...If you deem that complaining your letting your fanboy-hand show quite early in the deal...

As for your GITSSAC comments that indeed doesn't gain you any cashe in my eyes...To compare something as mentally and visually engaging to some half fluff/half serious fanservice harem anime doesn't do your anime-experience much good IMHO, but for every person that loves that series there's another who finds it overly talkative or not easy to follow...To say you hate it gives me some pespective into your pysche...For better for worse...



Quote:
Let's hear you come up with a better reason (For Asa's sick scenerio)? I think my reason is a damn good reason why Asa was sick as a child and then later in her life.
Your right it was a good reason, too bad the anime didn't flesh it out in anyway close to as comprhensive and understandable as you tried to to put your favorite character in a favorable light...You see...that's the downsize of letting your fanboyism show...You open yourself up to comebacks just like the one I just mentioned...So continue in any manner you want, and don't take my harsh words too seriously because they won't come unless you continue to use your anime-experience and fan-love as reasonings for why others don't understand your stance...There's no reason why people can't be extremely critical and still like Shuffle too I guess...I'll give Shuffle some credit though because, the series and it's pretentious ending, agitated me enuff to motivate me into discussing it...
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Old 2006-04-11, 00:40   Link #132
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So what if im an Otaku? What the hell does that got to do with dumbing down my credit in being someone who has alot of experiance in watching anime!?

You think that being someone who has seen more animes then the average person shouldn't count toward judging another anime. Well i say the more you've watched the more experiance and reliable you are TO judge an anime.

You may have not wanted to sound insulting but you did.
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Old 2006-04-11, 00:58   Link #133
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I *could* point out that when rin-sama was little in the 80s, I was already graduated from college and my first so-called anime was Astroboy, Speedracer, and Gigantor back in the 1960s the *first* time any anime hit American airwaves (and let us not forget Ultraman in the 70s)....
Frankly, if I had to call "first insult" it would be rin-sama for explicitly claiming he's an expert and implicitly saying anyone who disagrees with him is wrong and should shut up. Words carry context.

Many of us treat this forum like a book club: we can love a book and still see it has flaws in it... or vice versa. We like to analyze it, look at the mechanics of storytelling, notice the techniques of animation, and compare character archetypes and how they are implemented from story to story.

I can think of a lot of good theories and rationalizations for why Asa and other characters did what they did --- but it ISN'T onscreen. Good writing would contain this material or exposition of it.

Now... I follow rin-sama's Asa magic theory and it is pretty much described onscreen that way in much shorter dialog .... but we got contradictory information. Ama claims she's been having these spells since she was little. Rin and Kaede, despite being at their house A LOT and despite Asa spending that time plus time at school teaching Kaede to cook, neither ever had a clue Asa was sickly. Thats a plot hole.
Ama continued to hide her demonhood even after the portals were open because she was afraid they'd come retrieve her.... not a plothole.
Mayumi is 17... I originally thought her to be a plot hole (portals are only 10 years old) but realized her human and demon parent - one must have slipped across as Nadesico lectured about beforehand. So no plothole there.
Everyone keeps telling Rin he's the only one who can "save Asa" but no one says how... though its pretty clear he's going to have to do something massively drastic to get her to use magic.... since they were all being opaque it is difficult to avoid the idea they were all suggesting he try to kill himself to get Asa's attention.
And why did Asa stay with him after she had to break her vow to save him? Why couldn't Ama tell her daughter she was an idiot for thinking her mother didn't want her to use magic?

See, now I'm getting into the weak writing in Asa's arc --- the real tragedy is it wouldn't take much to repair this stuff (yes, the game arc is lame too in this respect).

Its okay to love a show and still see the flaws in it... or to dislike a show and still see it has good points. Anything else is just mindless drone worship or hate. Negima, the anime, still makes me irritable ... such wasted opportunity. Yet I keep the show around because there are good points to it I like.

If you've watched a lot of anime but have no experience in literary or media analysis, I'm not sure how that automatically gives you an edge.

Last edited by Vexx; 2006-04-11 at 01:16.
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Old 2006-04-11, 01:33   Link #134
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"Frankly, if I had to call "first insult" it would be rin-sama saying anyone who disagrees with him is wrong and should shut up."

I NEVER SAID THAT ONCE!

To you old schoolers i never meant to insult. All I said was I had more experiance than MOST people. I never said i had THE most experiance. Even me with 16 years of anime experiance is still alot more than what most people have in anime. you have to at least admit that.

Also the Mayumi loop-hole is actually just an error in the script writers side. It suppossed to be the portal has been open for 20 years. Not 10.

"Everyone keeps telling Rin he's the only one who can "save Asa" but no one says how."

BS. Everyone knows in order to save her life she has to use her magic. But Asa won't use it. So everyone thinks that Rin would be the most likely to convice her to do so. That's why everyone says he's the only only one who can save her. You probably ment HOW to convince her. Seriously if the people knew how to convince her wouldn't they have done it already? That's why it took Rin slicing his rist in order to force Asa to release her magic.

"Why couldn't Ama tell her daughter she was an idiot for thinking her mother didn't want her to use magic?"

How many times do you think she has tried already? If Asa won't listen to her then Ama asks Rin to do it. Besides what kind of plot would that be if Ama convincered Asa to use her magic in the 1st place? We wouldn't have a dramatic plot then and that would hurt the story worse then what you say it is.

All in all i never said that SHUFFLE! didn't have any flaws. I said was that it really didn't have enough flaws in it to really hurt the story. Every anime has it's flaws some more some less. I doubt ther will ever be a "flawless" anime.

All in all i know what your guys are trying to say. I just wish you would stop tring to discredit my reasons for likeing the show.

(if you stop i'll stop)
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Old 2006-04-11, 01:50   Link #135
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You know, I wasn't even born before the 80s but I did get my hands on Astroboy Although probably the first remake not the original 60's version, but I could be wrong Damn, I watching anime all my life, I can remember anime from the age of 3, and they were taking up half or more of my time (the rest being Disney and such). You won't see me boasting about being a good anime judge with all that "experience" I have. I just like the media, have no literature/writing background but I still just based on personal preference. The difference between me judging and someone else is that I usually find flaws that the majority agrees with. If I like the show, why bother defending it. I just state that it was nice, if I can't find no flaw. I certainly say it's my opinion (since if you just like the show, you can't be sure whether it's you or the show is really ok). Like how I like Bleach fillers when most seem to hate them and point to plot holes and stuff Maybe most Bleach viewers are more analytic than myself, or I'm outright blind, but whatever, I still think the fillers are nice. I am the one who will agree however that at some points, characters designs are off, as people have suggested.

To sum up, I'm no animation or literature expert, but that doesn't make my opinion count less that a self-proclaimed experienced critic. If nothing else, I'm the average viewer and my opinion counts more than a critic's .

Sure I could say that anyone who doesn't like Card Captor Sakura has no taste, or any other of my top anime, but that's just me. Although I do question a person's stability when he likes particular types of shows, as in horror, excessive blood and gore, tasteless ecchi and fanservice until you puke etc etc etc But again, that's just me.
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Old 2006-04-11, 02:10   Link #136
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rin-sama, you're a funny guy .... you missed the word "implicit" in my description of how you were portraying people who disagreed with you.

Experience doesn't equal quality.... just because I've done something for X years doesn't mean I'm good at it... take golf for example.

Um.... where's your information that the portal age is a script writer error from? The show says 10 years in multiple places, Nadesico has a lecture explaining that the races knew about people slipping away and when the portals were opened, they discovered where they went. Thats a clear onscreen explanation which covers Mayumi's heritage. No need to invoke "script writer error".
It wasn't a plot hole... I only originally thought it was. Read my post more carefully.

We can agree to differ on whether the "Rin the only one who can do it" theme was weak or not.

The thing is we never saw Ama or anyone else try to talk sense into Asa... another onscreen issue. If Ama had even said "I've tried to talk to her, can you try?" that would have repaired it. My contention over all is that the writers lacked the skill to convey in a consistent manner the important plot points that connected the story together. If I had to make this many assumptions in a book, movie, or television show it'd be ripped apart by the viewers. Anime watchers should expect better quality in their product, not just be happy with "my girl won".

No one is trying to stop you from liking Shuffle! or trying to convince us we've missed something. But you've got to expect to have to defend your comments or change your view when new information is presented, just I have to expect to do the same. Rooboy and I have disagreed on a number of topics, but we either agree to disagree, I've changed my opinion, and he's changed his when things were pointed out to each other.
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Old 2006-04-11, 02:17   Link #137
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I would just like to say that I _never_ change my opinion.

If I changed it, it wouldn't be mine anymore, it would be yours.
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Old 2006-04-11, 02:19   Link #138
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Well I started watching anime I can remember at about age 8 with Speedracer and Voltron including all the hybrid anime shows like transformers, Thundercats, Silverhawks, GI joe, etc...So I just sighted that i been watching anime for like 17 years but that just means I'm in my mid-20's^^...But I still have anime experience, although it doesn't always mean alot in a literary debate...I actually though Vexx's age was joking like people who put 100 or 1 as an age, but I'm already resigned to the fact that I will always love anime for all my years...whoever i marry will understand that, or I will take drastic measures and hide my obsession like a double agent ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rin-sama
How many times do you think she has tried already? If Asa won't listen to her then Ama asks Rin to do it. Besides what kind of plot would that be if Ama convinced Asa to use her magic in the 1st place? We wouldn't have a dramatic plot then and that would hurt the story worse then what you say it is
I don't think you realise how indirectly critical you just were by saying that...I won't comment any further...I'd like to see if others figured it out...
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Old 2006-04-11, 02:20   Link #139
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@rooboy: hahaha... silly semantic nutcase
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Old 2006-04-11, 02:25   Link #140
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Vexx: let me refraze that. PART of the portal was open for 10 years until it was completely unblocked. The portal itself between relmas has technachly been open for 20 years, just the ability to pass through it easily has been for only 10.

That's why you get the occational "slippage" for the 1st 10 and then open for all for the next 10. (Which explains why there are half-breads such as Mayumi and Asa before the portal was completly opened.
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