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Old 2006-01-15, 04:03   Link #1
Thewanderer
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My View on Feminism...

Correct me if I'm wrong guys, but men and women are, and should always be different... But that don't make them unequal.

It'd be like saying that every culture in the world should act the same because our differences make us unequal. I mean over the years, isn't it a culture of sorts that has developed as 'gender roles'? Sure the roles have been created from society, but so have many of our most important values.

So what if some of us are at home raising our family? So what if some of us are out having careers and getting jobs? And so what if on average women are more productive doing the former, while men are better at the latter? There should be seperate roles in our society, BUT we shouldn't be forced to assume a cirtain role. Only one that workes for us INDIVIDUALLY.

Everyone should stop the hate and get along with each other, IMO. Discuss.
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Old 2006-01-15, 04:10   Link #2
shiro83
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We are what we are.
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Old 2006-01-15, 04:36   Link #3
SpecterVR
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Idealism is just that, you know? You can't make everyone, or anyone get along just because "it makes sense" because it doesn't to everyone. Everyone has a different way of thinking, not to mention by birth, females and males are better or worse at different things.

Its all life. *shrug*
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Old 2006-01-15, 15:06   Link #4
Tzurial
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hmm...you say this, but I think you are somewhat ignorant of the plight of women. Its easy to say something like this now because women do have the option of a career. I agree that differences should be celebrated without being considered inequal treatment..but the differences between men and women have long been used as a consideration for inequality.

If history lasted five minutes, you could wipe off feminism as fanaticism and paranoia but feminism comes from a long history. Present feminism is fighting the effects of the past that are still lingering. They are more subtle, but still dangerous to todays women.

example! If you say we should base peoples roles on an individual basis then why do you say earlier that women are better at raising families and men are better at having careers? Oh gosh could this be a...stereotype? Really, this is why feminism persists today
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Old 2006-01-15, 15:28   Link #5
Tabris
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Who now? :P

Seriously, I don't mind, everyone has their own way of going about things. Though some are a little Ott.

Oops, guess using such a sign wasn't too good.

Last edited by Tabris; 2006-01-15 at 15:45.
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Old 2006-01-15, 15:39   Link #6
Thewanderer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzurial
example! If you say we should base peoples roles on an individual basis then why do you say earlier that women are better at raising families and men are better at having careers? Oh gosh could this be a...stereotype? Really, this is why feminism persists today
No, it's not a stereotype. If it was, other creatures wouldn't be doing the same thing on instinct... what mother nature decided for them. Mothers are naturally motherly, and men are naturally hunters/gatherers.. It's no stereotype at all, it's just the way we naturally are.

My point was that it's okay to do that, but it don't mean there shouldn't be other options. No one should feel restricted of obligated... or even pressured into how they live. Again, this is IMO.
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Old 2006-01-15, 15:43   Link #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzurial
hmm...you say this, but I think you are somewhat ignorant of the plight of women. Its easy to say something like this now because women do have the option of a career. I agree that differences should be celebrated without being considered inequal treatment..but the differences between men and women have long been used as a consideration for inequality.

If history lasted five minutes, you could wipe off feminism as fanaticism and paranoia but feminism comes from a long history. Present feminism is fighting the effects of the past that are still lingering. They are more subtle, but still dangerous to todays women.

example! If you say we should base peoples roles on an individual basis then why do you say earlier that women are better at raising families and men are better at having careers? Oh gosh could this be a...stereotype? Really, this is why feminism persists today
Lol I see a flame thread on the horizon
My father is a writer who works from home and looked after me and my sister while we were younger, my mother was technically the bread winner.
EVEN SO I think that women are better then men at being home makers, I'm not saying that the homes is a womans place but I think there is something that makes women biologically more capabale of the Job and guess what most scientists agree with me!
It is my opinion that feminism has become too strong in some countries as a result: 1.Divorce courts are biased in favour of women. It seems they at least still think children should go with their mothers...
2. Birth rates in all first world countries are down way low (having two bread winners doesn't leave much time for babies). The only countries where the rate is stable is the UK and the USA and a few other third world immigrant laden countries.

That's all I can think of now. Interesting thread.
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Old 2006-01-15, 17:08   Link #8
kujoe
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This is topic bound to open a whopping can of worms alright.

But anyway, there was already a thread discussing gender equality long ago. Even though the focus is a bit different, a lot of stuff has already been said.

What I find particularly distressing and amusing, is that when people (mostly us guys..) hear the words, "feminism" or "feminist," nowadays the first thing we do is equate these words to femi-nazis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aristophanes
...I think there is something that makes women biologically more capabale of the Job and guess what most scientists agree with me!
It is my opinion that feminism has become too strong in some countries as a result: 1.Divorce courts are biased in favour of women. It seems they at least still think children should go with their mothers...
Isn't that somehow a bit contradicting on your part? If you believe that women are biologically more suitable to be home-makers, then wouldn't it make sense that there would be bias for them when it comes to who raises the child..?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aristophanes
2. Birth rates in all first world countries are down way low (having two bread winners doesn't leave much time for babies). The only countries where the rate is stable is the UK and the USA and a few other third world immigrant laden countries.
You remind me of this interesting article.
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Old 2006-01-15, 17:40   Link #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kujoe
What I find particularly distressing and amusing, is that when people (mostly us guys..) hear the words, "feminism" or "feminist," nowadays the first thing we do is equate these words to femi-nazis.
Ah yes, guilty as charged
ofcourse this is a usual stereotype, but personally I look upon Equal rights
movement and feminists as 2 different things

Equal rights: as it says "Equal"
-Hell, they got my support!

Feminists: Equal rights + interest for all those centuries being oppressed by men
-Like hell, get back in that kitchen!!
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Old 2006-01-15, 17:53   Link #10
OutPhase
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My views:

Feminism's fine, but only to a certain degree. It's okay for both genders to think "Men and women should be treated equally". What I'm about to say will most likely piss you off, but I hate the idea of "men shouldn't hit women". I'm sorry, but doesn't that contridict the whole fucking men and women should be treated equally thing!? I'd say men being unable to hit women to be a massive double-standard, and it separates the two genders from being treated fairly. Back then, women weren't allowed to vote, and then one woman made a huge difference that ended up allowing females to vote. The male gender not being allowed to inflict physical harm and yet girls can hit boys is retarded. That expression spits on the graves of all the women over the centuries who fought for the same rights as men. Guess what ladies? We don't care. We're not going to treat you differently than every other male just because you have two "y" chromosomes.

TL;DR: "Men can't hit women" does not support equality amoung the genders, just more hypocricy that makes the world a sucky place to live.


Another thing that bothers me is feminism extremists. The worst kinds of such people are those who go around saying that women are better than men in every way and they'll kick your ass if you disagree with them. It's more-or-less as one person I know said it as "GIRL POWER OMGWTF!". It's just out-and-out retarded and a really good way to have your face beaten in because in the real world most men aren't afraid to hit girls, or even beat them to a bloody pulp. The female gender does not dominate the male gender, or vice-versa. We both have our share of strenghts and weaknesses.


In case you can't tell yet, I hate the idea of feminism. I'm also not sexist. I'm a person who thinks that everybody shouldn't give a rats-ass about each others gender. If you are going to punch someone in the face, don't let anything hold you back with either gender (that's if you're actually going to smash their head in). We men may not be the nicest or the most non-violent people on earth, but you females aren't so high-and-mighty yourself. Unless one sex shits out diamonds, kitties, steaks, and gold, there is no "better" gender.
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Old 2006-01-15, 19:14   Link #11
Diodati
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I think before people can give any views they should first establish and pehaps familiarise with what feminism they are talking about. Because I guarantee, it's not a simple form of ideology that can be summed up in bullet points, nor has that ever been the case.

But whatever I don't believe many people are actually talking in terms relating to real feminism - only their moulded variation to suit their points. And where the flaming will start is when the generalising begins. Do people really feel they have the substantial wordly experience to sum up every man and woman in all cultures upon this Earth with any basic notions? I must admit the idea of 'home-makers' and 'hunters' made me laugh a bit - culturally determined, which admittedly has nearly always been in patriarchal societies are not particularly good ways to describe the roles mother Earth gave us.

But anyway, as mentioned, I don't believe people can discuss Feminism correctly unless they 'know' the full studies, which have thus changed from a specifically social-orientated form (of the Western, white, middle-class kind) to an continental European based promotions of ethics and cultural boundaries in the last 20 years. The concentration of feminism exists more through the works of structuralism - such as Althusserism and Semiotics, and more into strands of Post Modenism (Queer Theory/Lesbian Feminism is now far more a developing kind of Feminism - not a resurgent of the bra burning Feminist Theory of the 60s etc)

Also Razer, I don't mean to nitpick, but you begin your post with ''Feminism's fine, but only to a certain degree'' and end your final paragraph with ''In case you can't tell yet, I hate the idea of feminism''. And not to seem even more rude, but most of your post seems directed at a girl you once met who told you 'hitting men is fine if you're a woman, but men shouldn't hit women'. Yes that is a double standard but I fail to see where this ties in with 'equal rights'. Most people, including most Feminists, don't believe anyone should excert the 'right' to hit another peron, based on gender. And it does work both ways most certainly. I'd be rather disgruntled if any woman or man felt the need.

I'm not sure where you've got all these thoughts on extremism from - it's easy to criticise any mode of study when people quote the radicals.

Last edited by Diodati; 2006-01-15 at 19:38.
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Old 2006-01-15, 20:11   Link #12
OutPhase
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diodati
Also Razer, I don't mean to nitpick, but you begin your post with ''Feminism's fine, but only to a certain degree'' and end your final paragraph with ''In case you can't tell yet, I hate the idea of feminism''.
I know. I was just to lazy to edit.

Quote:
And not to seem even more rude, but most of your post seems directed at a girl you once met who told you 'hitting men is fine if you're a woman, but men shouldn't hit women'.
Not told, but that's what I paraphrased it as. I have never heard any saying like "women shouldn't hit men", so I thought of it as a double-standard.

Quote:
Yes that is a double standard but I fail to see where this ties in with 'equal rights'. Most people, including most Feminists, don't believe anyone should excert the 'right' to hit another peron, based on gender.
"Most" is the key word in that statement.


Quote:
I'm not sure where you've got all these thoughts on extremism from - it's easy to criticise any mode of study when people quote the radicals.
The origin of me thoughts of extremist feminism:

Let's just leave it to that there are some people on the internet who take this crap to an insanely annoying agree about "why men suck so much". I've read tripe like that over and over and over again, and it's basically the same thing said in twenty different ways, and "girl power" being one of the most blood-boiling. It wouldn't be so bad if they weren't so fixicated on such an idea and if they didn't shove it down your throats like one of those large vitamin pills (whether it be with or without fiber).

In the end, feminism bites. How about some Humanism, and that way we kill two birds with one stone? Not only would everybody respect each gender equally, but there would be no obnoxious extremism that would piss off man-kind they would be showing their support of the human race as a whole.
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Old 2006-01-15, 20:24   Link #13
arias
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Males are innately different from females. This means they do have different physical properties -- the most common and obvious being body strength. Men have stronger upper bodies, are more aggressive and are generally larger than females (in the animal kingdom, the gender that has such traits is the dominant gender). Females have better endurance for pain. These are but a few of the differences.. others are heavily contested -- including behavioral characteristics (e.g. social stereotypes) and abilities (math aptitude, for example).

Many people, and many intellectuals in the social sciences do not accept these differences. There is a powerful feminist movement which aligns itself as being politically correct, that is seeking to overthrow traditional male fields. This is fine for some fields which have practiced sexual discrimination. But sometimes this is taken too far. For example, accusations are made against the engineering (comp, electrical, mechanical etc) fields for not having enough females (it seems that they MUST have a 50-50 ratio -- at least).. and when it appears that not many females do want to study engineering, the accusation is laid upon society's stereotype brainwashing. We are brainwashed to act according to our gender stereotypes.

It is funny that feminists fail to acknowledge that there are more females enrolled in universities/colleges than males in North America (this is a common fact -- just google. It should be available). It's also no secret that Psychology majors are comprised of a majority of females. In my university, the ratio is about 7:3 (female:male).. If females want to study the social sciences, it is no wonder that there are so few of them in the "hard" sciences. Perhaps the efforts of feminists will be better directed at trying to attract females wanting to study the social sciences to study the hard sciences instead.

The issue is quite complex, but the fact is, individual differences CAN mutually exist alongside the idea of equality. Just because person A is smarter than person B doesn't mean that A has more "rights" than B has. But despite the fact that most of us can accept that some people are born smarter, taller, and others not so smart and not so tall, we can't accept that males and females are born different.
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Old 2006-01-15, 20:41   Link #14
Epi
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It's true that everyone should be treated as individuals. Whatever choices people make should be what happens. People should not be constrained to live their life as they wish as long as they don't infringe on the rights of others.

The problem is the world isn't so simple. Before there was feminism (or at least a social awareness of women's rights), women didn't get the same chances to even have the ability to make the same choices that men did. Women didn't get to vote. They were expected to live at home and raise a family (if they choose not to, they were ostercised or couldn't find meaningful employment). Women weren't allowed to do a lot of the things that men were allowed to. In short, even though it would have been nice for women to be allowed to decide for themselves, most women did not have the same freedom and range of choices as men did.

Is this problem completely solved today? I'd say no. Women still make less money on average than men even if they have the same job and the same amount of experience. Women are still underrepresented in things like elected office, top business jobs and so on. Why is this a problem? Well for one, 1/2 our population is female. If most politicians are male, then many problems which are uniquely female will not be fully considered. Just as the poor and minorities always get marginalized in society, women are too.

The next question is, are women simply not going into top jobs and top political positions because of choice or because of constraints? This is a tough question. Undoubtably, many women want to start a family, and don't have the same competitive personality that you need to get into top positions compared to the amount of men who are willing to go all out. But how much of this is because women feel that they SHOULD stay home and take care of the kids and that the man feels like they SHOULD take the traditional male roles, and how much of this is women actually making a conscious decision that they care more about family than outward success?

Hard to say.
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Old 2006-01-15, 21:43   Link #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Razer_2mb
Feminism's fine, but only to a certain degree. It's okay for both genders to think "Men and women should be treated equally". What I'm about to say will most likely piss you off, but I hate the idea of "men shouldn't hit women". I'm sorry, but doesn't that contridict the whole fucking men and women should be treated equally thing!? I'd say men being unable to hit women to be a massive double-standard, and it separates the two genders from being treated fairly. Back then, women weren't allowed to vote, and then one woman made a huge difference that ended up allowing females to vote. The male gender not being allowed to inflict physical harm and yet girls can hit boys is retarded. That expression spits on the graves of all the women over the centuries who fought for the same rights as men. Guess what ladies? We don't care. We're not going to treat you differently than every other male just because you have two "y" chromosomes.
Maybe it's because that on average(and I do mean on average), women are weaker in the upper-body region, which does give them a handicap where physical strength is concerned. Not to mention that aiming for their chests with a punch is definitely wrong(their face, however...)

But there are other factors in fights other than strength. Inelligence(it plays less of a factor in most fights tho) and speed should be considered too.

And note that you really shouldn't hit most girls, because they're pretty much defenseless. But if an annoying angry motherfuqing b!tch comes along, feel free to whale on her
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Old 2006-01-16, 00:25   Link #16
Aristophanes
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kujoe
This is topic bound to open a whopping can of worms alright.

But anyway, there was already a thread discussing gender equality long ago. Even though the focus is a bit different, a lot of stuff has already been said.

What I find particularly distressing and amusing, is that when people (mostly us guys..) hear the words, "feminism" or "feminist," nowadays the first thing we do is equate these words to femi-nazis.


Isn't that somehow a bit contradicting on your part? If you believe that women are biologically more suitable to be home-makers, then wouldn't it make sense that there would be bias for them when it comes to who raises the child..?


You remind me of this interesting article.
Then aren't feminists technically contradicting themselves?
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Old 2006-01-16, 05:31   Link #17
kujoe
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As for the child rearing bit in divorce cases, the point is a psychological one in my opinion. I'm not to be quoted on that though. You can say the reverse is also true with regard to a fatherless upbringing, which is why children are given a choice when they're at a certain age.

But you see, I can imagine a lot of guys would be more than happy to agree with such biological reasoning such as that, but then if something supposedly supported by that goes against them, why start questioning and saying how unfair it is all?

I'm just trying to understand what you're trying to say.
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Old 2006-01-16, 09:23   Link #18
mantidor
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I always thought about all these issues as the human paradox, we are all very diferent, but at the end, we are all basically the same.
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Old 2006-01-16, 10:51   Link #19
HoboGod
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Razer_2mb
I'd say men being unable to hit women to be a massive double-standard, and it separates the two genders from being treated fairly. Back then, women weren't allowed to vote, and then one woman made a huge difference that ended up allowing females to vote. The male gender not being allowed to inflict physical harm and yet girls can hit boys is retarded.
Completely agree. If women want equality, they should throw away that double-standard, learn to take a hit, and DEMAND they be drafted to war when men are drafted.

Men and women are more biologically similar to eachother than to anything else on this planet. Women being "naturually weaker" is propaganda created by our patriarchal beginings. If they want to true equality, they should show some teeth and fight for it. Nothing on this earth was granted to humanity without violence and destruction.
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Old 2006-01-16, 10:51   Link #20
Nightbat®
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arias
Many people, and many intellectuals in the social sciences do not accept these differences. There is a powerful feminist movement which aligns itself as being politically correct, that is seeking to overthrow traditional male fields. This is fine for some fields which have practiced sexual discrimination. But sometimes this is taken too far. For example, accusations are made against the engineering (comp, electrical, mechanical etc) fields for not having enough females (it seems that they MUST have a 50-50 ratio -- at least).. and when it appears that not many females do want to study engineering, the accusation is laid upon society's stereotype brainwashing. We are brainwashed to act according to our gender stereotypes.
In the technical school i was in -at it's peak- there were 2, yes people 2 girls out of 350 students

Well maybe we should help them and put them to work in the harbours, steel industry
ofcourse within a few weeks they'll be complaining they're being forced to do slavelabour and
what's being asked of them is too much -while all this time men have been doing it for years-
or filing sexual harrassment lawsuits -I can tell my colleagues every time to
"Suck ** ****" without any problems since we're male-

My sister is one of the few girls I met in my life that actually does a man's job:
she's a welder
she can't handle the physical stress or the speed required to do the job and
because of that is constantly absent from work, yet she keeps claiming she's
better than a man
Ok,... she's good at it, her welds are perfect and she's got the most QC passes,
but in the time her male colleagues do 20 and screw up 5 she does 10 good ones
these guys even do more since they show up for work everyday

Most girls I met don't like getting their hands dirty and expect everything to be
handed to them on a silver platter
If they have to get their hands dirty they suddenly are "just a girl!'
If they don't get what they want career-wise, they're being oppressed by "the Male
dominant society" [where's that barf emoticon when you need it]


A small anecdote my dad once told:

"My female colleague comes up to me and states: 'My salary should be as much as yours'
10 minutes later she asks me to help me lift something, my reply: 'Why would I?
You're the one who wants to make as much as I do, and I don't need any help lifting that'

So maybe I'm generalising and stereotyping
I respect the few women out there "doing a man's job"
but until I see women (and I don't mean the ones you mistakenly address as "Sir")
in all corners of the workforce, not just the "easy" jobs I have no justifiable reason to change my views


....ofcourse by that time all women will look like men, so I'm not sure if I really want
women to do our work
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