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Old 2006-01-16, 16:09   Link #21
TTHX
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It's a condradiction.

Feminists want equality but yet they still want those stupid double standards and to be treated more special just because they are girls.

Like the above stories of girls not being able to fully do certain things and expect men to do such for them just because it's "courtesy" because they are females.

Equality will only happen when those feminists realize that they can't get the special treatment from men because they have boobs and a vagina.
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Old 2006-01-16, 16:58   Link #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HoboGod
Completely agree. If women want equality, they should throw away that double-standard, learn to take a hit, and DEMAND they be drafted to war when men are drafted.
Because they're weaker don't mean they shouldn't be drafted to war. It's because idiot men who've been away from their wives(or any female contact at all...) would oogle and flirt with them. I definitely don't want men who defend my country be destracted by random boobies on the battlefield.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoboGod
Men and women are more biologically similar to eachother than to anything else on this planet. Women being "naturually weaker" is propaganda created by our patriarchal beginings. If they want to true equality, they should show some teeth and fight for it. Nothing on this earth was granted to humanity without violence and destruction.
Biologically similar? Of course they are! They're the same species, after all. The "naturally weaker" thing is scientific fact. Do your research before saying that again, and definitely give solid proof if you wish to continue saying it.
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Old 2006-01-16, 17:08   Link #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Razer_2mb
My views:

Feminism's fine, but only to a certain degree. It's okay for both genders to think "Men and women should be treated equally". What I'm about to say will most likely piss you off, but I hate the idea of "men shouldn't hit women". I'm sorry, but doesn't that contridict the whole fucking men and women should be treated equally thing!? I'd say men being unable to hit women to be a massive double-standard, and it separates the two genders from being treated fairly. Back then, women weren't allowed to vote, and then one woman made a huge difference that ended up allowing females to vote. The male gender not being allowed to inflict physical harm and yet girls can hit boys is retarded. That expression spits on the graves of all the women over the centuries who fought for the same rights as men. Guess what ladies? We don't care. We're not going to treat you differently than every other male just because you have two "y" chromosomes.
I don't believe that anyone should hit anyone else, but I did come to that same conclusion during elementary school when I was told that everyone is equal.
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Old 2006-01-16, 17:14   Link #24
arias
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thewanderer
Because they're weaker don't mean they shouldn't be drafted to war. It's because idiot men who've been away from their wives(or any female contact at all...) would oogle and flirt with them. I definitely don't want men who defend my country be destracted by random boobies on the battlefield.
That's a stupid comment.

Why not say we don't want women in the workplace because we don't want men to be distracted by random boobies?
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Old 2006-01-16, 17:17   Link #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arias
That's a stupid comment.

Why not say we don't want women in the workplace because we don't want men to be distracted by random boobies?
Because they're not fighting for their lives there
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Old 2006-01-16, 17:19   Link #26
Ziv
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arias
That's a stupid comment.

Why not say we don't want women in the workplace because we don't want men to be distracted by random boobies?
because they have ample time for female contact elsewhere, and cannot afford to be distracted while in battle. Why do you think Naruto's sexy no jutsu works so well?
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Old 2006-01-16, 17:29   Link #27
Catgirls
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If you're going to have an intelligent discussion about Feminism, I suggest everyone drop juvenile expressions like "boobies". This thread isn’t a spot for you to demean, impugn or degrade anyone by reducing them to their sexuality.

I'll just lock this up if it continues.

There actually could be an interesting and thoughtful discussion here. It is a topic that has vast social & economic implications, but it isn't an excuse for you to whip out every sophomoric colloquialism you can think of.
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Old 2006-01-16, 17:54   Link #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Catgirls
If you're going to have an intelligent discussion about Feminism, I suggest everyone drop juvenile expressions like "boobies". This thread isn’t a spot for you to demean, impugn or degrade anyone by reducing them to their sexuality.

I'll just lock this up if it continues.

There actually could be an interesting and thoughtful discussion here. It is a topic that has vast social & economic implications, but it isn't an excuse for you to whip out every sophomoric colloquialism you can think of.
Thank you, Catgirls. The last thing I wanted was for my thread to go out like that. And it'd kinda hurt that they'd misinterprate my usage of the word in the first place...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziv
because they have ample time for female contact elsewhere, and cannot afford to be distracted while in battle. Why do you think Naruto's sexy no jutsu works so well?
Exactly my point. Men are like that. That's another thing that makes us different from each other(but DON'T make us unequal, mind you)
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Old 2006-01-16, 18:40   Link #29
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Well...I would like to know what is the exact definition of Feminism that the thread starter was using when they made this. As I noted in an earlier post, someone mentioned the Women's Rights Movement. To me, there's a big difference between Feminism and Women's Rights.

To me, currently my view on Feminism, especially after reading through this thread, is quite similar to what Razer was talking about. The whole girl-power, "girls rule and boys drool", female superiority thing. They don't seem to be trying to achieve equality so much as trying to be the "superior" gender due to, and this is debatable, the fact that men have basically been the "superior" gender for all this time. That's where I kind of draw the line.

As for Women's Rights, I'm all for it. I don't appreciate the fact that up until a certain point in our history, women weren't allowed to vote...or to go one step further, they weren't even considered people (women are things, haha! Dumbarses...).

The major problem as previously mentioned is, unfortunately, the social conditioning and [I use this word loosely] propaganda that we have been exposed to. After such a long time of pre-determined roles like men should be the ones who go out and "bring home the bacon" and women should stay at home and take care of the kids, it's difficult to break away from the view of how things "should be". WARNING: BEWARE. LARGE GENERALIZATION AHEAD. Not to mention the fact that humanity, at least the vast majority of it, does not accept change well. Hence why it's unlikely, in my humble opinion, that everyone will, as you said, "stop the hate and get along with each other" any time soon.
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Old 2006-01-16, 18:50   Link #30
Jinto
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If we only understood, that the main problem lies in generalizing the usually biologically different genders. The real idea of equal treating is, to respect the wish of a person to be evaluated not by some generalized view regarding the own gender but true qualification. This means not to lower standards just to make one equal to one other and it also means to stop treating people (of both genders) according to stereotypes.
The therfore required openmindedness is a hard to achieve thing (and that dilemma applies for other 'made by human' problems too).
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Old 2006-01-16, 19:34   Link #31
Diodati
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Y'know I'm only going to post once more in here, but I feel I should at least give my POV rather than bite my tongue...erm fingers.

It's ironic as many of these ‘'women’’ being described in this thread are *not* Feminists - I find it unlikely, truly, that they take an interest in the critical theory involved. I'm saddened to see many women and silly girls manipulate terminology and the 'real' oppression of millions of women into their own trivial girl power slogans. Feminists, of the ones I’ve met in the last ten yeas, are not actually interested in that. They do NOT want double standards. They do NOT promote equality and then are happy with the gendered predetermined ‘roles’ that both men and women are given, in most societies.

One of the core roots of studies in Feminism specifically now, is that of defining ‘female’, ‘feminine’ and ‘feminism’. All of them are DIFFERENT - Feminism itself has about 50 strands to it - some of which greatly disgaree with each other!
I’d rather not bring myself into teaching a philosophy about what it entails but some of you are waaaaaaaaaaaaaay off in what you think Feminism is. Actually it's becoming a bit worrying.

In regards to the empowering of certain women – Feminism is not done through bra burning and all that jazz - these days it tends to be on an examination of aesthetic and artistic levels as well as psyche and representation - it's moved into very European roots. I too immensely dislike the extreme stuff but that isn't ''Feminism'' to me - that's using a very intellectual and varied theory just to bash men. So it really p*sses me off to see 'Feminism' get generalised into misused definitions - and that's not aimed at anyone in particular as many women are equally guilty of doing it - but let me clarify, it's only a select few who promote any of sh*t that people seem to think Feminism is whenever this topic is brought up.

In fact this topic seems less about ‘Feminism’ and more about your own personal opinion on gender politics and socially determinable roles and behaviour. The irony is, such, if you take an interest in the strands Feminism now exists in – these women *do* promote women to go into hard science, politics, and male orientated business.

Mary Wollstonecraft, probably the real pioneer of women’s rights, back in the 1700s declared that it was the responsibility of 'normal' WOMEN, equally, to change the roles and attitudes - regardless of whether that will bring their life into stigma. And that still holds true today.

However it's easier said than done: I went into mathematics and computer science, my father was an electrical engineer, but I got so disgruntled with being viewed as a minority on my course – a token - that I eventually found the whole thing miserable. And the work quite soul-less to be perfectly honest. It's interesting to note that the majority of people in the higher level mathematic and physics classes at my schools were female - yet when given the choice at college and university level they all picked Psychology and what not – I guess because that’s what they think they're supposed to do:

Even if women do choose to go into these ‘male orientated’ paths, I know myself, that certain people will of course view their getting jobs as simply down to them being women. Do you think women like that?? Yes I’m sure it’s true on one level that certain women manipulate it for an easier ride - but not many do. It kinda makes you feel as though you're not able to achieve anything, you never feel acknowledgement or pride in what you do.

It’s verging on being insulting that some of you think many women would find that a worthwhile scenario – the likelihood Feminist women would want that is at about zero %. Like I said before, some of you are thinking some very weird particulars to hold your views – without specifying who these apparent Feminists are that say such views. Ad that might be down to no Feminists ever writing such a thing. Most Feminists I know actually *do* want the standards that so men and women seem to think they avoid:

On one hand it's quite amusing to think that people believe in such 'wrong' ways, that Feminism - but on the other, it kinda upsets me that there is such a lack of understanding and acknowledgement of some of the most intelligent and, imo, important women in western civilisation. (e.g. Simone de Beauvoir, Hélène Cixous, Judith Butler, Mary Wollstonecraft, Virginia Woolf, Julia Kristeva, The Valiant Five, Séverine, Audre Lorde) But anyway, if taking recent people, then women such as Rebecca Walker, Kate Millett, Barbara Smith, Jean Kilbournce, Nadine Strossen etc have the right examples for women to follow in terms of 'applied' Feminism.
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Old 2006-01-16, 19:48   Link #32
HoboGod
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thewanderer
Because they're weaker don't mean they shouldn't be drafted to war. It's because idiot men who've been away from their wives(or any female contact at all...) would oogle and flirt with them. I definitely don't want men who defend my country be destracted by random boobies on the battlefield.
There are women who join the millitary and fight along side men. How do you rationalize them? In actual combat, a man is more conserned about his life than his sexual desires.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thewanderer
Biologically similar? Of course they are! They're the same species, after all. The "naturally weaker" thing is scientific fact. Do your research before saying that again, and definitely give solid proof if you wish to continue saying it.
Yes, that is exactly my point, same species, similar biological strength. And weakness is a social concept, you can't apply such things to science. It would be equally absurd as to say it's a scientific fact that all men commit evil.

Granted, the maximum muscle mass of a man is something like 1/3 greater than that of a woman, but "weak" is a social concept measuring the tendancy to fail (in the context of my words, to lose a fight.) Brute strength plays only a minor role in that aspect as even among men, the person with the bigger muscles doesn't always win.
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Old 2006-01-16, 21:10   Link #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HoboGod
Yes, that is exactly my point, same species, similar biological strength. And weakness is a social concept, you can't apply such things to science. It would be equally absurd as to say it's a scientific fact that all men commit evil.
I ment on average. I'm sorry, but I thought it was already implied.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoboGod
Granted, the maximum muscle mass of a man is something like 1/3 greater than that of a woman, but "weak" is a social concept measuring the tendancy to fail (in the context of my words, to lose a fight.) Brute strength plays only a minor role in that aspect as even among men, the person with the bigger muscles doesn't always win.
That's actually what I was trying to say. Men are physically stronger on average, but that's not very important in today's society. That don't mean we can't aknowledge it.
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Old 2006-01-16, 22:17   Link #34
Veritas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Razer_2mb
My views:

Feminism's fine, but only to a certain degree. It's okay for both genders to think "Men and women should be treated equally". What I'm about to say will most likely piss you off, but I hate the idea of "men shouldn't hit women". I'm sorry, but doesn't that contridict the whole fucking men and women should be treated equally thing!?
Well, I guess a perfect world would be where no one would hit anyone at all. But I think what this gets at is "Don't hit people who are weaker than you are." Since the average guy is stronger than the average girl, it applies in most cases. It's not cool for a girl to wail on a little kid or anything, just because she's a girl.

Quote:
We're not going to treat you differently than every other male just because you have two "y" chromosomes.


Nit picking, but women have two X-chromosomes, and men have an XY. (You didn't do this, but I really hate it when people say that they're talking someone with 2 Y chromosomes, when they're looking for a dude.)
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Old 2006-01-17, 01:01   Link #35
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http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2006/01/17/o_beirne/ Interesting link.
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Old 2006-01-17, 03:48   Link #36
guest
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It is in human nature that “different” equals “inferior.”
It is also human nature that the inferior party does not want to stay being treated as inferior forever, hence the conflict.

Surely different does not equal inferior but as sad as it sounds, it is how people are.

This is what I think.
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Old 2006-01-17, 06:26   Link #37
HoboGod
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Originally Posted by Aristophanes
That's the kind of person I actually hate more than extremist left wing feminists.

Any woman that would prefer her people to be opressed rather than face change is a coward and a betrayer.
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Old 2006-01-17, 06:31   Link #38
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One thing that I hate is how we women say we want equality and yet we seperate ourselfs by creating all these groups meant only for women, that's just silly to me.
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Last edited by BellaD; 2006-01-17 at 07:27.
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Old 2006-01-17, 08:21   Link #39
wao
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HoboGod
That's the kind of person I actually hate more than extremist left wing feminists.

Any woman that would prefer her people to be opressed rather than face change is a coward and a betrayer.
I don't know about whether she really wants women to be oppressed... did you read the entire article?

Spoiler for I think she's got valid points:


Spoiler for But I don't entirely agree!:


edit: She says that society would have naturally progressed down the path of equal rights for women without any feminist movement, but I find that highly doubtful
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Last edited by wao; 2006-01-17 at 08:46.
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Old 2006-01-17, 13:17   Link #40
HoboGod
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@wao: The valid points she makes are nothing new to the criticizim of feminists. It's everything else that shits from her mouth that pisses me off.

EDIT: I'm not sure if oppression was the right word to use there, but it illustrates a point.
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