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Old 2010-09-27, 18:52   Link #2721
Cherry_Lover
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Originally Posted by Moczo View Post
Just a heads up: this argument should probably be moved to the Game thread. Q&A is for short, simple answers to questions, and this has gone waaaaay past that; it's really only a matter of time until a mod steps in, and we should nip that in the bud. (And yes, I am aware that I fanned the flames a bit too. I apologize.)
Well, it probably fits better in there, yes, but it's pretty much impossible to "move" an argument. But, you're right that the mods are somewhat anal about stuff like that on here, so....
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Old 2010-09-27, 19:09   Link #2722
LostHanyou
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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
Erm, that's a complete nonsense argument, because NPs aren't designed for the purpose of fighting other servants, they're representations of the abilities that they had in life. An NP can be totally useless, and it's still an NP (Caster, for instance, possesses an NP can in theory be used to summon a dragon (I think it's the Golden Fleece), but it's completely useless to her since she doesn't have the ability to actually activate it).
That's bull, unless you're suggesting Rule Breaker wasn't specifically made to effect servants and actually had any historical relevance. In fact there's very few noble phantasm's which make any sense at all. You can bring up the Golden Fleece as an example, but I could provide far more examples which show that Noble Phantasm's are distorted so that they can be used to fight other servants.

I suppose Nasu just didn't think about it since Berserker wouldn't be able to use it anyway.

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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
Actually, it's not clear that this is true in the case of Caliburn, because of his connection to it. It may have avoided a rank down for some reason (and, yes, this is a plot hax).
Uh... I don't see how it would have avoided a rank decrease. He was able to project Avalon without a rank decrease because he was used to the structure, but he didn't share such a connection with Caliburn.

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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
Err, the power of a weapon is not directly linked to its rank.

The thing is, it's not that simple. Rank is not directly equivalent to power, and power may not be directly related to the number of lives it takes. An attack which concentrates lots of power into one single point (e.g. the heart) will probably only kill him once.
You're right, however I think it's reasonable to assume Noble Phantasm's of equal rank shouldn't have such a large power difference that one of them would take out 7 lives and break a weapon while another would do nothing. Bellerophon vs Excalibur is a good example of power comparison, I think, and they actually have a value difference.

Also, is that not how Caliburn worked? After 'jamming it in' to Berserker's chest there was some crazy laser blast that didn't seem to envelope all of Berserker, but rather only his chest and back area.


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Originally Posted by Moczo View Post
Just a heads up: this argument should probably be moved to the Game thread. Q&A is for short, simple answers to questions, and this has gone waaaaay past that; it's really only a matter of time until a mod steps in, and we should nip that in the bud. (And yes, I am aware that I fanned the flames a bit too. I apologize.)
Alright, I'll make this my last post (not asking Cherry Lover to give me the last say, though!). Nasuverse is always heavily debated so I guess I can see why mods would be strict about this.
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Old 2010-09-27, 19:22   Link #2723
Cherry_Lover
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That's bull, unless you're suggesting Rule Breaker wasn't specifically made to effect servants and actually had any historical relevance. In fact there's very few noble phantasm's which make any sense at all. You can bring up the Golden Fleece as an example, but I could provide far more examples which show that Noble Phantasm's are distorted so that they can be used to fight other servants.
There's a distinction between "in-game" reasoning and "out-of-game" reasoning. In in-game terms, an NP is supposed to be some representation of an ability or weapon that they had in life, so you can't use the fact that Nine Lives is essentially pointless in all realistic circumstances (in terms of fighting in the Grail War) to prove anything, because it doesn't matter from an in-game viewpoint.

From an out-of-game viewpoint, you are of course entirely right that Nasu invented NPs (like Rule Breaker) for the sake of convinience. However, we already know why Nasu invented Nine Lives. He did so so that Shirou could use it in HF to pwn Berserker. So, the fact that it has no use in any other circumstance isn't relevant.

Quote:
I suppose Nasu just didn't think about it since Berserker wouldn't be able to use it anyway.
More to the point, it doesn't matter. Even if he could use it, that wouldn't imply that it would have to be useful to him, because the person who is supposed to use it (in terms of the plot and the reasoning for it being included) is Shirou.

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Uh... I don't see how it would have avoided a rank decrease. He was able to project Avalon without a rank decrease because he was used to the structure, but he didn't share such a connection with Caliburn.
Well, yes, you're probably right. Honestly, I'm trying to postulate reasons for why Caliburn could work on him.

Quote:
You're right, however I think it's reasonable to assume Noble Phantasm's of equal rank shouldn't have such a large power difference that one of them would take out 7 lives and break a weapon while another would do nothing.
It's how they're used. Archer wasn't using Caldaborg as an NP, he was using it as an arrow. The power in the attack was likely different.

Quote:
Bellerophon vs Excalibur is a good example of power comparison, I think, and they actually have a value difference.
Well, they're also different types of attack. In fact, Bellophron isn't an attack at all. It's the reins to allow Rider to use Pegasus. The attack is just Rider flying really, really fast into Saber. They're not directly comparable.

Quote:
Also, is that not how Caliburn worked? After 'jamming it in' to Berserker's chest there was some crazy laser blast that didn't seem to envelope all of Berserker, but rather only his chest and back area.
It's not clear but, yes, you may be right. Honestly, the whole "Caliburn kills Berserker" thing is a bit of a plot-hole, but not because a weapon can necessarily only take one life.
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Old 2010-09-28, 11:36   Link #2724
NightWingx
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Hi i'm new here and i want to know if im on the right track with things.
Spoiler:
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Old 2010-09-28, 11:59   Link #2725
Moczo
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Originally Posted by NightWingx View Post
Hi i'm new here and i want to know if im on the right track with things.
Spoiler:
Yes, the discussion that went on here for awhile was all about events that happen in Heaven's Feel. Try not to read too much detail into them, you'll ruin the route even more than... er... it already has been.
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Old 2010-09-28, 12:04   Link #2726
NightWingx
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Originally Posted by Moczo View Post
Yes, the discussion that went on here for awhile was all about events that happen in Heaven's Feel. Try not to read too much detail into them, you'll ruin the route even more than... er... it already has been.
Well, i already knew about dark saber and stuff and assassin [real] from The fate stay night game on Warcraft 3 lmao.
I just didn't know how they factor in to the situation. :\
Still don't, so good to know.
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Old 2010-09-28, 12:42   Link #2727
Cherry_Lover
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Yeah, those are both HF-specific characters. I won't explain where they come from, though, for obvious reasons....

As for us talking about stuff, the game thread is specifically aimed at game-related stuff, and so will contain unmasked spoilers for HF and UBW. The other threads will also likely contain some game spoilers, so I would suggest that you avoid reading anything that is spoiler-tagged, especially if it's marked "HF" or "UBW".
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Old 2010-09-30, 09:14   Link #2728
NightWingx
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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
Yeah, those are both HF-specific characters. I won't explain where they come from, though, for obvious reasons....

As for us talking about stuff, the game thread is specifically aimed at game-related stuff, and so will contain unmasked spoilers for HF and UBW. The other threads will also likely contain some game spoilers, so I would suggest that you avoid reading anything that is spoiler-tagged, especially if it's marked "HF" or "UBW".
Finished True UBW
Spoiler:
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Old 2010-10-08, 14:50   Link #2729
GDB
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So, here's a random thought that came to mind. What happens if a Master is summoning a Servant, and has two catalysts (one for two different Servants)?

Does it summon the one that Master is consciously trying to summon, the one more similar to the Master (ie: whichever would be more likely to be summoned without a Catalyst), do the two cancel each other out and it summons whatever Servant fits the Master best, or is it just random between the two?
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Old 2010-10-08, 15:33   Link #2730
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Originally Posted by GDB View Post
So, here's a random thought that came to mind. What happens if a Master is summoning a Servant, and has two catalysts (one for two different Servants)?

Does it summon the one that Master is consciously trying to summon, the one more similar to the Master (ie: whichever would be more likely to be summoned without a Catalyst), do the two cancel each other out and it summons whatever Servant fits the Master best, or is it just random between the two?
It summons whichever one the master has a stronger "pull" on. Having a catalyst doesn't guarentee you a particular servant, it depends on how much the servant wants to be summoned, the nature of the spirit (CGs won't usually be summoned, for instance) and the strength of the connection between you and them (which includes how closely attached they are to the catalyst). For instance, if you gave Shirou Avalon and Rin's pendant, he would likely still get Saber, because the connection to Archer is (probably) not as strong and a CG is less likely to be summoned in general.
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Old 2010-10-08, 15:48   Link #2731
GDB
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Makes sense, thanks. Though are Counter Guardians really that rare? I figured without a catalyst they'd be rare, but with a catalyst they'd probably be just as likely as any other Heroic Spirit to appear.
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Old 2010-10-08, 16:57   Link #2732
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Makes sense, thanks. Though are Counter Guardians really that rare? I figured without a catalyst they'd be rare, but with a catalyst they'd probably be just as likely as any other Heroic Spirit to appear.
The game explicitly states that since they don't have a legend, the Grail will not normally call upon a CG. Archer is stated to be a special case, because Rin had a catalyst that linked her specifically to him.

Otherwise, I'd imagine that you'd be getting far more CGs than normal Heroic Spirits, since there are probably many more of them.
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Old 2010-10-13, 04:06   Link #2733
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Did the game ever explain why Saber couldn't just outmatch Gilgamesh with Excalibur in sword combat? I understand how Ea is more powerful and all, but GOB is pretty much useless if you can see it coming (especially since she has Instinct) and Enuma Elish seems to take time to charge right?
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Old 2010-10-13, 04:57   Link #2734
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Here's question brought on by my younger cousin upon seeing my UBW poster.

Unlimited Blade Works.

How exactly do we perceive that? As in like a foundry which a limitless number of blades can be produced or as if saying the use of limitless blades gets the job done?

By the Reality Marble I always thought it was the first option but upon thinking of the fighting style of just spamming weapons, I'm unsure.
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Old 2010-10-13, 06:26   Link #2735
Moczo
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Originally Posted by Polar_Lord View Post
Did the game ever explain why Saber couldn't just outmatch Gilgamesh with Excalibur in sword combat? I understand how Ea is more powerful and all, but GOB is pretty much useless if you can see it coming (especially since she has Instinct) and Enuma Elish seems to take time to charge right?

If she can get into melee, she can outmatch him in close combat. The problem is doing that; her instinct for deflecting projectiles isn't limitless. He can hit her with dozens or even hundreds of shots at once, some of them so strong they must feel like her arms are being ripped off when she blocks them. And then you've got weapons that can't be sensed, or weapons that have secondary powers, ones designed for slaying dragons that therefore have extra effectiveness on her... she can barely defend against all that while standing still, much less while trying to attack herself.

As for the other thing, Excalibur takes some time to charge too, and Ea can defeat it with only a fraction of its power. So seeing her release the wind field and start to glow gives him ample time to counterattack.

----------------------------------------------

EDIT:

And actually, I have a question too, now that I think about it. Have the names of any members of the Einzbern family other than Ilya, Irisviel, and Justicia been confirmed? In particular the patriarch, Ilya's grandfather.

Last edited by Moczo; 2010-10-13 at 07:16.
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Old 2010-10-13, 07:32   Link #2736
LostHanyou
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Originally Posted by fallschirmjager View Post
Here's question brought on by my younger cousin upon seeing my UBW poster.

Unlimited Blade Works.

How exactly do we perceive that? As in like a foundry which a limitless number of blades can be produced or as if saying the use of limitless blades gets the job done?

By the Reality Marble I always thought it was the first option but upon thinking of the fighting style of just spamming weapons, I'm unsure.
LOL took me a while to get this.

I'd assume the first...
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Old 2010-10-13, 09:58   Link #2737
GDB
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And actually, I have a question too, now that I think about it. Have the names of any members of the Einzbern family other than Ilya, Irisviel, and Justicia been confirmed? In particular the patriarch, Ilya's grandfather.
Jubstacheit von Einzbern is the current leader of the Einzbern family, which I assume means he's Ilya's grandfather.
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Old 2010-10-13, 10:57   Link #2738
Moczo
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Jubstacheit von Einzbern is the current leader of the Einzbern family, which I assume means he's Ilya's grandfather.
Thanks!

... My next question would be 'is Jubstacheit a real name in any language at all, or is Nasu just trying to sound foreign again'? At least Ilyasviel and Irisviel sound kind of real, if not exactly German... this just sounds like someone sneezed and wrote down the sound it made.
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Old 2010-10-13, 11:52   Link #2739
GDB
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Thanks!

... My next question would be 'is Jubstacheit a real name in any language at all, or is Nasu just trying to sound foreign again'? At least Ilyasviel and Irisviel sound kind of real, if not exactly German... this just sounds like someone sneezed and wrote down the sound it made.
I don't think it's real, but he's also supposed to be really old, having used Alchemy or something along those lines to extend his life. He's been around since the second Grail War, which would've been around the time of the Bakumatsu (1853-1867).
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Old 2010-10-13, 18:56   Link #2740
Moczo
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I don't think it's real, but he's also supposed to be really old, having used Alchemy or something along those lines to extend his life. He's been around since the second Grail War, which would've been around the time of the Bakumatsu (1853-1867).
Hey, Nasu doesn't need an excuse. Why don't you ask 'Bazett Fraga McRemitz' and 'Luviagelita Edelfelt' how well he knows foreign names.

Oh, and thanks; any details are helpful.
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