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Old 2011-02-18, 11:40   Link #2921
Moczo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Polar_Lord View Post
Regarding Shirou's method of projection, it is stated that his Noble Phantasm copies are weaker by an entire rank due to the limits of analysis by sight. However, if he were able to hold the Noble Phantasms and perform Structural Grasp magecraft or some other kind of analysis, could he negate this drop?
Hmmm. I believe he reproduced Avalon with no drop in rank, but that required it be a part of his body for years. So it seems he potentially can do perfect recreations, but it likely takes far more analysis than just touching the item in question.

I could be wrong, of course, but that seems like what's going on to me.
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Old 2011-02-18, 20:45   Link #2922
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moczo View Post
Hmmm. I believe he reproduced Avalon with no drop in rank, but that required it be a part of his body for years. So it seems he potentially can do perfect recreations, but it likely takes far more analysis than just touching the item in question.

I could be wrong, of course, but that seems like what's going on to me.
If I recall correctly,
Spoiler for On the off chance someone hasn't yet played the VN or watched UBW:
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Old 2011-03-13, 07:26   Link #2923
JNottle
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I can't think of another place to put this, but it's a question about Archer if anybody knows.

I'm kind of unsure on the whole "Unlimited Blade Works" attack, and why it's so good.

People say it can copy Noble Phantsms, so does that mean for example he can use the Gae Bolg (NP) of Lancers if he wanted to while inside of the Reality Marble? Or use Excalibur?

THanks.
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Old 2011-03-13, 07:37   Link #2924
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He can't do Gae Bolg because he can only copy swords.

He can probably copy Excalibur but i think it was said somewhere that he won't be able to use it's full power because it's too costly.
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Old 2011-03-13, 07:43   Link #2925
JNottle
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Oh, I see.

So he can use any NP that's a sword then within his magic limitations?

To be honest I don't rly get the hype of the attack if it's limited like that.
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Old 2011-03-13, 08:46   Link #2926
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
He can't do Gae Bolg because he can only copy swords.
I don't think that's true, actually.

Certainly he's able to recognise it, because he does so when Gil brings out his version of it in Fate. And, given that his UBW is intrisically linked to his ability to recognise things, he should be able to trace it too.

He can (usually) only copy offensive weapons, yes, but I think spears are allowed as well as swords.

Quote:
He can probably copy Excalibur but i think it was said somewhere that he won't be able to use it's full power because it's too costly.
Archer claims to be able to trace it (or, at least, a good enough approximation to it), and Shirou does so in HF Normal. However, using it is stated to kill him, presumably due to the prana requirement.
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Old 2011-03-18, 10:11   Link #2927
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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
Archer claims to be able to trace it (or, at least, a good enough approximation to it), and Shirou does so in HF Normal. However, using it is stated to kill him, presumably due to the prana requirement.
Why? I thought one of Gae Bolg's advantage is the low prana use?

---

What exactly is the process of creating a Broken Phantasm? If it's just prana infusion overload, can he do the same with normal arrows or swords?
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Old 2011-03-18, 10:32   Link #2928
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Originally Posted by Tiresias View Post
Why? I thought one of Gae Bolg's advantage is the low prana use?
He's talking about Excalibur.

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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
I don't think that's true, actually.

Certainly he's able to recognise it, because he does so when Gil brings out his version of it in Fate. And, given that his UBW is intrisically linked to his ability to recognise things, he should be able to trace it too.

He can (usually) only copy offensive weapons, yes, but I think spears are allowed as well as swords..
If I recall that was the original of Excalibur, not Gae Bolg.
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Old 2011-03-18, 11:03   Link #2929
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Well, a) you're talking about Caliburn, not Excalibur and b) he also recognises the original Gae Bolg, as one of the many weapons Gil is intending to spam earlier on in the route.
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Old 2011-03-18, 11:06   Link #2930
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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
Well, a) you're talking about Caliburn, not Excalibur and b) he also recognises the original Gae Bolg, as one of the many weapons Gil is intending to spam earlier on in the route.
Recognise it magically or just recognise it from nearly being killed by it?

[edit]

Looking at the Type moon wiki it says he can trace other weapons and armor but it would cost more prana because he has an affinity for swords. I guess that explains Rho Arias. My bad.
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Old 2011-03-18, 12:48   Link #2931
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Well, to be fair, the fact that TM wiki says something is not by any means proof that that something is actually true....
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Old 2011-03-18, 12:57   Link #2932
Haak
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Fair enough but it seems reliable enough for me to trust. Atleast I've never come across anything that I knew was contradictory or speculative information.
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Old 2011-03-18, 13:12   Link #2933
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Well, put it this way. Your opinion on its reliability isn't shared by those members of Beast's Lair who can actually speak Japanese....
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Old 2011-03-18, 17:39   Link #2934
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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
Well, put it this way. Your opinion on its reliability isn't shared by those members of Beast's Lair who can actually speak Japanese....
Well, unless they make their own Wiki or edit the current one, you can't fault people for using it as a source of information. Not everyone goes to Beat's Lair, and even fewer would scour the bottomless threads and posts looking for minute levels of information on specific things.
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Old 2011-03-18, 17:44   Link #2935
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
Fair enough but it seems reliable enough for me to trust. Atleast I've never come across anything that I knew was contradictory or speculative information.
Wikis can be edited by anyone, that is their strength and weakness. You don't cite Wikipedia for school papers, but for something like this, you use your judgment. For this, I agree with the wiki because it has proof, as you said, is Rho Arias.

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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
Well, put it this way. Your opinion on its reliability isn't shared by those members of Beast's Lair who can actually speak Japanese....
This just in: Beast's Lair is the law. If they say Illya lived in UBW, it means she lived. Speaking English or Japanese means nothing when it's translated. And anything on Beast's Lair is written by fans, just like the wiki, so it has no additional credibility.
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Old 2011-03-18, 18:36   Link #2936
Cherry_Lover
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Originally Posted by GDB View Post
Wikis can be edited by anyone, that is their strength and weakness. You don't cite Wikipedia for school papers, but for something like this, you use your judgment. For this, I agree with the wiki because it has proof, as you said, is Rho Arias.
Well, in this case I'm not claiming the wiki is wrong. I agree entirely with the statement made. I'm just pointing out that the wiki cannot always be relied upon.

Quote:
Well, unless they make their own Wiki or edit the current one, you can't fault people for using it as a source of information. Not everyone goes to Beat's Lair, and even fewer would scour the bottomless threads and posts looking for minute levels of information on specific things.
No, not really, but that doesn't make it any more reliable....

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Originally Posted by DragoZERO View Post
This just in: Beast's Lair is the law. If they say Illya lived in UBW, it means she lived.
No, but Beast's Lair has a very large number of knowledgeable fans, so as a group it's generally reliable. More so than the TM wiki, at any rate.

Quote:
Speaking English or Japanese means nothing when it's translated.
Yes, but much of it isn't translated. In particular, the bit about him tracing other weapons comes from the side-material books, which are only available in Japanese and, thus, the only information we have about them comes from Japanese speakers. So, if they say that the wiki is wrong, I'm inclined to believe them.

Quote:
And anything on Beast's Lair is written by fans, just like the wiki, so it has no additional credibility.
Yes, but the fans on BL are generally more knowledgeable than those writing the wiki.

The wiki is full of fanon (for instance, the idea that Shinji was ordered to rape Sakura, which is not mentioned anywhere in the game and I have never seen a primary source for), generally lacks any citations for the information presented there and often conflicts with what is known from more reliable sites (in particular, ones written by people who can actually speak Japanese) or from people who actually can read the supplimentary Japanese texts.
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Old 2011-03-19, 09:34   Link #2937
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About Shirou's/Archer's ability then...

Gate of Babylon

"...It is a key-shaped sword that connects to the "golden capital"..."

So does that mean it would maybe be possible for them to replicate it?
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Old 2011-03-19, 17:15   Link #2938
Haak
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Well to be honest I don't know Japanese and even less about Beast Lair so i can't really have an opinion on that...

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Originally Posted by JNottle View Post
About Shirou's/Archer's ability then...

Gate of Babylon

"...It is a key-shaped sword that connects to the "golden capital"..."

So does that mean it would maybe be possible for them to replicate it?
Heh, possibly if they can comprehend it. But Shirou couldn't comprehend Ea so I'm guessing he can't comprehend whatever sword is used to open the Gates of Babylon. Which is a good thing because we don't need another ridiculously hax character.
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Old 2011-03-22, 19:53   Link #2939
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Shirou replicates every weapon in gate of babylon except Ea

Gate of babylon has gae bolg (as shown used versus Berserker)

therefore, Shirou can trace gae bolg. However, that doesn't mean he can use the ability.
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Old 2011-03-23, 18:12   Link #2940
Cherry_Lover
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Originally Posted by LostHanyou View Post
Shirou replicates every weapon in gate of babylon except Ea

Gate of babylon has gae bolg (as shown used versus Berserker)

therefore, Shirou can trace gae bolg. However, that doesn't mean he can use the ability.
Why wouldn't he be able to use the ability? He uses the abilities of other weapons, and it's rather silly to say that he can copy the strength of the NP's owner but not their ability to activate the NP....
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