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Old 2011-11-14, 14:38   Link #3161
giorno
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Originally Posted by jonli View Post
5) So if everyone is trying to win the war and get the lesser grail to get to the great grail, am I correct? If that's the case why would Einsburn even bother to go to the war when they already have the "key"? Can't they just...you know...go to the temple?
the grail needs to be filled with prana first, and said prana are the slain servants

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6)
Spoiler for fsn ending:
No, destroying the lesser grail doesn't do anything to the greater grail. If the greater grail is intact, it will keep collecting prana and start a new HGW once the conditions are met.

Ataraxia is a dream created by Avenger to save Bazett. And unlike what Profile said, it CANNOT happen after HF because the greater grail was destroyed in that route


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Is she romantically involved with Shirou in that ending or is he with Rin and Saber is like...their maid ? I hope that's not the only ending with Saber x Shirou....that's very freaking sad.
Fate route IS the only shirou x saber ending, since the other 2 routes focus on other heroines....and in UBW normal she gets to stay with Rin and Shirou, as Rin's servant. She's not romantically involved with Shirou(meaning saber is not in love with Shirou, and Shirou -being in love with Rin- is not in love with her). In HF she's blackened by Sakura and killed by Shirou

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Oh and how old is Saber really? Since...Shirou is like 17 right? Just wondering if this is an imouto relationship or an one-san relationship.
She is physically fifteen, but considering she was King of England for quite some time, she's probably in her 30s or early 40s...
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Old 2011-11-14, 14:40   Link #3162
Haak
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Originally Posted by jonli View Post
Wait now I'm even a bit more confused. Since the heroic spirits that are summoned are just replicas. So the replicas are the ones that create the grail in the end, but then it's been stated that Saber is the one the actual original. So if she gets KOed early in the war her ORIGINAL spirit would turn into grail material? Waste much? Basically if I was the Holy Grail i'd always make sure the world would only make contracts with dead heroes and not life ones. Was making Saber special just an excuse for Nasu to have Saber go back to her timeline for a tragic end? Since it seems like even if the grail is gone, as long as the master has enough mana the servants can still be sustained in the real world.
I'm pretty sure it was explained that if she failed she'd just be forced to travel through time again to the next moment someone tries to create the Holy Grail. But since the characters who explained it at the time didn't know that the Servants get turnes into the Grail, I'm not entirely sure how true that is. In any case, the Grail doesn't decide which specific Heroes are summoned, at least not in this case. Saber was summoned because a relic of hers was used in both wars. Kiritsugu purpisefully used Avalon to summon Saber and Shirou accidently summoned her because he had Avalon inside of him and just didn't realise it

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Is she romantically involved with Shirou in that ending or is he with Rin and Saber is like...their maid ? I hope that's not the only ending with Saber x Shirou....that's very freaking sad.
It's open to interpretation but i'd say she's romantically involved, yes.
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Old 2011-11-14, 14:42   Link #3163
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Actually Saber is an exception. She's the real deal and not a copy, due to a time paradox where she technically isn't dead yet. But you know, we shouldn't be discussing this. The rules in the opening post make this perfectly clear.
She is different because she is still alive, so technically, she's not a spirit. But the summoned servant is still a copy of the original created by the holy grail

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She's romantically involved, yes.
no, she isn't
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Old 2011-11-14, 14:46   Link #3164
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WOW this argument is funny=w=
I think saber is involved, maybe not that deep as FSN route, but she is involved.
Though at the end of the war she is Rin's servant.
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Old 2011-11-14, 15:00   Link #3165
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Originally Posted by giorno View Post
She is different because she is still alive, so technically, she's not a spirit. But the summoned servant is still a copy of the original created by the holy grail
The Holy Grail doesn't technically create the copies. The Throne of Heroes does. The Throne of Heroes is a part of the Akasha where heroes go when they die. The Throne of Heroes is a place where the hero's soul is left isolated and preserved as complete. It thus has to prevent any alterations (in order to prevent existential paradoxes) so if someone decides to somehow summon one, it creates a copy which is later destroyed without relaying any knowledge acquired back to the “main body” in the Throne.

Since Saber hasn't died and entered the Throne of Heroes, a copy need not be created. But technically none of the servants are copies anyway, due to the nature of the Great Grail's method of summoning which involves Third Magic. These "copies" actually do return to the Throne of Heroes and can retain memories.

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no, she isn't
Well let's just say it's open to interpretation.
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Old 2011-11-14, 15:47   Link #3166
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Since Saber hasn't died and entered the Throne of Heroes, a copy need not be created.
EDIT: wait, you may be right about this. She's still considered "dead" and thus is no different from the copies of the other HS, except for the part that since she's alive, she retains the memories of everything she did and cannot go into spirit form


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But technically none of the servants are copies anyway, due to the nature of the Great Grail's method of summoning which involves Third Magic.
These "copies" actually do return to the Throne of Heroes and can retain memories.
This is actually wrong. All servants are copies and it's an incomplete form of the third magic that summons them, the copies don't return to the throne

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Well let's just say it's open to interpretation.
saber's feelings for shirou, maybe. Whether they are romantically involved with each other? No, it's not open to interpretation, they aren't.
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Old 2011-11-14, 15:52   Link #3167
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post

Since Saber hasn't died and entered the Throne of Heroes, a copy need not be created. But technically none of the servants are copies anyway, due to the nature of the Great Grail's method of summoning which involves Third Magic. These "copies" actually do return to the Throne of Heroes and can retain memories.
What? So...now they DO retain memories? Okay...so if they are not summoned with the greater grail's power. Let's just say some Magus decided to summon a hero not during the holy grail war but because he wanted to do something else, then in that scenario a copy is created by the Throne of Heroes.

BUT when the Greater Grail is involved, which means both 5th and 6th war, these heroes do in fact retain their memories...because? If that's the case then if you're a berserker like Hercacles wouldn't you feel sort of weird afterwards when you get your personality back?
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Well let's just say it's open to interpretation.
Am I missing some sexual innuendo here? Do they have regular threesomes or something? So in that sense they are technically "involved"? Lot's of magic going around!
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Old 2011-11-14, 15:58   Link #3168
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What? So...now they DO retain memories?
No, they don't, he's saying something else entirely, and it's wrong anyways. They specifically don't retain memories to prevent paradoxes, though on the other hand, a record of it exist in the throne so they can read it and learn of what happened


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Okay...so if they are not summoned with the greater grail's power.
this is pretty much impossible, no human is powerful enough to do that...

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Let's just say some Magus decided to summon a hero not during the holy grail war but because he wanted to do something else, then in that scenario a copy is created by the Throne of Heroes.
The throne of heroes exist outside time and space, the HS are "completed products" stored inside, and whenever the world needs to use them, it makes a copy and sends it out. The "true" HS CANNOT be summoned, it is always a copy


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Am I missing some sexual innuendo here? Do they have regular threesomes or something? So in that sense they are technically "involved"? Lot's of magic going around!
No, there is nothing. Saber is Rin's servant, Rin can't keep her by herself so she needs Shirou to have lots of sex with her(Rin) to help maintain saber. That's about all the sexual innuendo there is. Again, it is Rin's route, Shirou is in love with Rin, not saber
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Old 2011-11-14, 16:27   Link #3169
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No, there is nothing. Saber is Rin's servant, Rin can't keep her by herself so she needs Shirou to have lots of sex with her(Rin) to help maintain saber. That's about all the sexual innuendo there is. Again, it is Rin's route, Shirou is in love with Rin, not saber
then what is saber doing there? why doesn't she leave?
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Old 2011-11-14, 16:47   Link #3170
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Because Rin decided to keep her(since she could) and she decided to stay?
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Old 2011-11-14, 16:47   Link #3171
Haak
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Originally Posted by giorno View Post
EDIT: wait, you may be right about this. She's still considered "dead" and thus is no different from the copies of the other HS, except for the part that since she's alive, she retains the memories of everything she did and cannot go into spirit form
The whole point behind her being a special case is that she's not dead yet. This was made clear in the VN:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3iVFMXt3PHE

In order to fulfil her contract her body is frozen in a state between life and death whilst her soul seperates and travels back and forth time.

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This is actually wrong. All servants are copies and it's an incomplete form of the third magic that summons them, the copies don't return to the throne
For some reason it says in the wiki that Servants are different, but you seem to be right. I'll have to look this one up later.

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saber's feelings for shirou, maybe. Whether they are romantically involved with each other? No, it's not open to interpretation, they aren't.
I think it's very clearly open to interpretation. The only way you get to this ending in the first place is if you sacrifice some points with Tohsaka to get points with Saber. And Saber's feelings are pretty damn obvious. I'll post the scene for others to see for themselves. They can form their own interpretation. It should be noted that Rin had an entirely different interpretation herself:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hVZwzv-wTA
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Old 2011-11-14, 16:48   Link #3172
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Originally Posted by giorno View Post

The throne of heroes exist outside time and space, the HS are "completed products" stored inside, and whenever the world needs to use them, it makes a copy and sends it out. The "true" HS CANNOT be summoned, it is always a copy

I see but in the earlier posts you say it might be possible that because Saber is still alive technically there is no need to create a replica of her. So after she dies at the end of FSN she probably gets moved into the Throne of Heroes?
Must be a lonely existance in there...
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No, there is nothing. Saber is Rin's servant, Rin can't keep her by herself so she needs Shirou to have lots of sex with her(Rin) to help maintain saber. That's about all the sexual innuendo there is. Again, it is Rin's route, Shirou is in love with Rin, not saber
Okay, but wouldn't it be a lot more effecient if it was a threesome?
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Old 2011-11-14, 16:55   Link #3173
Haak
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I see but in the earlier posts you say it might be possible that because Saber is still alive technically there is no need to create a replica of her. So after she dies at the end of FSN she probably gets moved into the Throne of Heroes?
Must be a lonely existance in there...
Normally she would but Realta Nua's Last Episode had other ideas:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7IIphI4Ypg

It's up to you whether you can consider it canon or not.
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Old 2011-11-14, 17:12   Link #3174
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I see but in the earlier posts you say it might be possible that because Saber is still alive technically there is no need to create a replica of her. So after she dies at the end of FSN she probably gets moved into the Throne of Heroes?
Must be a lonely existance in there...
saber dies after the fate route and probably UBW true. In UBW good she stays with rin and shirou, and after HF she has no reasons to stop pursuing the grail

also, last episode

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Okay, but wouldn't it be a lot more effecient if it was a threesome?
that's up to Rin...
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Old 2011-11-14, 17:14   Link #3175
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^ Hmm interesting...

It wouldnt make much sense though since I thought they're suppose to be isolated in case their completed forms get corrupted or change due to influence or interaction from outside forces. If heroic spirits are to be hanging out with each other in a beautiful land they're bound to interact with each other and their views would change.

Shouldn't it be archer's voice in the end?
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Old 2011-11-14, 17:19   Link #3176
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Because Rin decided to keep her(since she could) and she decided to stay?
Again why does Saber want to stay? If she doesn't want to stay Rin wouldn't be able to keep her.
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Old 2011-11-14, 17:31   Link #3177
Haak
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^ Hmm interesting...

It wouldnt make much sense though since I thought they're suppose to be isolated in case their completed forms get corrupted or change due to influence or interaction from outside forces. If heroic spirits are to be hanging out with each other in a beautiful land they're bound to interact with each other and their views would change.

Shouldn't it be archer's voice in the end?
That's not The Throne If Heroes btw. That's Avalon, the place legends say Arthur goes to instead of dying. Saber was talking to Merlin there. About his voice, I think it does actually explain that somewhere in there.
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Old 2011-11-15, 02:56   Link #3178
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Again why does Saber want to stay? If she doesn't want to stay Rin wouldn't be able to keep her.
'coz she likes it with Rin and Shirou? bottom line is, Shirou is in love with Rin, not with saber. He may have a small crush on saber, but that's that...
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Old 2011-11-15, 06:24   Link #3179
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Giorno, think about it. Why would Nasu make a whole alternative ending because of a few whims of the characters?

In any case Saber made it perfectly clear that she'd stayed because she wants to be with Shirou. She didn't explicitly say romantically but it's heavily implied even if she herself doesn't realise it. And Shirou is clearly touched by her words since he specifically says it's just like the first time he met her which was an obvious "Boy Meets Girl" moment. And it was enough to leave him speechless and Rin to get pissed off.
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Old 2011-11-15, 10:48   Link #3180
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Can we just think about it as the way to satisfy all fans?
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