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Old 2013-04-10, 18:38   Link #4161
Sansker
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Well in that case if they are both trap, Saber could break the chains but Gilgamesh not. I mean is not clear if the chains affects gods worse or if thise makes it stronger.
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Old 2013-04-10, 19:04   Link #4162
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What do you mean it's not clear? It specifically says that against those who have little to no divinity they are normal chains rather than inescapable bonds
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Old 2013-04-10, 19:29   Link #4163
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Well, I have learn to only guess when it comes down to things like NP because the more I look in to them is harder to get the idea.

But I guess that is clear enough.
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Old 2013-04-11, 09:48   Link #4164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanya01 View Post
If Gil wraps the chain around his arm, would it work to hold Saber down?
No idea. I wanna see a heroic spirit with a Noble Phantasm gun...
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Old 2013-04-11, 09:58   Link #4165
Endscape
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Originally Posted by bhl88 View Post
No idea. I wanna see a heroic spirit with a Noble Phantasm gun...
Here you go. Though it's not a Noble Phantasm, and the Servant is only there because of Moon Cell shenanigans.

In reality, though a gun might get raised to be a Noble Phantasm, there's no such thing as a Heroic Spirit that would wield it, Word of God.
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Old 2013-04-11, 12:32   Link #4166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
Here you go. Though it's not a Noble Phantasm, and the Servant is only there because of Moon Cell shenanigans.

In reality, though a gun might get raised to be a Noble Phantasm, there's no such thing as a Heroic Spirit that would wield it, Word of God.
The only problem I have with that is that, if having guns of some type eliminates people from being Heroic Spirits, then most of the Chinese warriors would be eliminated simply because they had access to gunpowder for centuries before it came over to Europe.

While I have no problem believing that most people couldn't be Heroic Spirits who use guns, the problem is, isn't a Heroic Spirit someone that did such an incredible deed in life that they're basically worshiped?

By that vein, the Red Baron and the White Death would both be able to make it to the throne of Heroes, simply because of what they managed to accomplish, even though they had guns.

If you want to get technical with the whole "just being capable of using it well" thing that prevents them from making it, then how come Iskender made it? He didn't have any magical weapons on hand. He just used what was available to the best possible extreme.
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Old 2013-04-11, 12:53   Link #4167
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I think it had something to do with the definition of heroic spirits being those who could do that which was deemed impossible by humans means. So by the time we'd made guns no one really believed in magic anymore and we didn't have as many myths in that time because we had actual explanations for things rather than saying that it was just because guy X came along and was super badass/magical and we'd never be able to do that ourselves. When we see someone using a gun to kill people we're that much more likely to look at them and say "yeah well that's not that impressive since it was mostly the gun doing it" than we are if we see someone carve through a group of people with swords or a spear

This is of course just my guess, but what I think makes sense, you attriute it to being a good gun not a good marksman, thus the NP but not Heroic spirit thing
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Old 2013-04-11, 12:56   Link #4168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spamamdorf View Post
I think it had something to do with the definition of heroic spirits being those who could do that which was deemed impossible by humans means. So by the time we'd made guns no one really believed in magic anymore and we didn't have as many myths in that time because we had actual explanations for things rather than saying that it was just because guy X came along and was super badass/magical and we'd never be able to do that ourselves. When we see someone using a gun to kill people we're that much more likely to look at them and say "yeah well that's not that impressive since it was mostly the gun doing it" than we are if we see someone carve through a group of people with swords or a spear

This is of course just my guess, but what I think makes sense, you attriute it to being a good gun not a good marksman, thus the NP but not Heroic spirit thing
I suppose...

But in the cases of the White Death and Red Baron, well...

They really were pretty supernatural.

Especially since Mr. White Death made all of the USSR piss their pants in terror at his name.
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Old 2013-04-11, 14:23   Link #4169
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Well, to me the idea of guns making people not able to be Heroic Spirits is really… stupid. If you think about it the other Heroic Spirits also used instruments to increase their chances. The Noble Phantoms are even more destructive than most guns these days but yet using a sword that can cut a mountain in half makes one a heroic spirit but a simple revolver makes you just some guy with a gun. When you come down to it there is no real difference, both are using a weapon to perform their “heroic task” so why are magical items that can break the laws of physics ok but guns aren’t?
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Old 2013-04-11, 14:33   Link #4170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
Here you go. Though it's not a Noble Phantasm, and the Servant is only there because of Moon Cell shenanigans.

In reality, though a gun might get raised to be a Noble Phantasm, there's no such thing as a Heroic Spirit that would wield it, Word of God.
Well I was thinking of Assassin who wielded a sword which didn't have anything special in it or a legend.... so I was thinking that if someone had a gun and died with it, then he'd be a Heroic Spirit with a gun that can affect Servants [heard that normal weapons, non-Noble Phantasm weapons and non-magic weapons can't affect Servants or do little damage, Saber ran away from the F-15 as it was coated as a rank E anti-army Noble Phantasm by Berserker's prana... I'm sure she wouldn't run away from a F-15 it a normal person used it...]

And by guns, I meant modern weapons.
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Old 2013-04-11, 14:35   Link #4171
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Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
Well, to me the idea of guns making people not able to be Heroic Spirits is really… stupid. If you think about it the other Heroic Spirits also used instruments to increase their chances. The Noble Phantoms are even more destructive than most guns these days but yet using a sword that can cut a mountain in half makes one a heroic spirit but a simple revolver makes you just some guy with a gun. When you come down to it there is no real difference, both are using a weapon to perform their “heroic task” so why are magical items that can break the laws of physics ok but guns aren’t?
I literally said I was making my best guess, how should I know?

Maybe it has something to do with our attitude of stuff becoming more possible to do with science nowadays than we had in the past? (this was in the original post too btw and something that was mentioned as being one of the reasons heroic spirits come from the past mostly, pretty sure EMIYA is an exception due to being a counter guardian and not because he was able to do things that were impossible on his own) there's also the whole humans have a limited amount of power over the entire race and so as we get more of them each individual one is weaker thing going on so people in Gilgamesh's time and so on were a lot stronger than we are now anyways, stuff like that

but again, I'm guessing here, I'm not going to be able to say 100% "this is why it is like this"
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Old 2013-04-11, 15:00   Link #4172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanya01 View Post
The only problem I have with that is that, if having guns of some type eliminates people from being Heroic Spirits, then most of the Chinese warriors would be eliminated simply because they had access to gunpowder for centuries before it came over to Europe.

While I have no problem believing that most people couldn't be Heroic Spirits who use guns, the problem is, isn't a Heroic Spirit someone that did such an incredible deed in life that they're basically worshiped?
Just having access to guns or gunpowder isn't going to disqualify someone from being a Heroic Spirit, but if your claim to fame is being a gunslinger, then you won't make it. A Heroic Spirit is someone who does something or possesses qualities that are miraculous. The idea is that anyone can pick up a gun, and becoming a great gunslinger only takes effort. No miracles involved

Quote:
By that vein, the Red Baron and the White Death would both be able to make it to the throne of Heroes, simply because of what they managed to accomplish, even though they had guns.
Judging from what Nasu said, they wouldn't make it, but then again, they might be exceptions.

Quote:
If you want to get technical with the whole "just being capable of using it well" thing that prevents them from making it, then how come Iskender made it? He didn't have any magical weapons on hand. He just used what was available to the best possible extreme.
Different times. What was miraculous then isn't now. Also, judging from Ionian Hetaroi, Iskander had some astonishing qualities all on his own as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
Well, to me the idea of guns making people not able to be Heroic Spirits is really… stupid. If you think about it the other Heroic Spirits also used instruments to increase their chances. The Noble Phantoms are even more destructive than most guns these days but yet using a sword that can cut a mountain in half makes one a heroic spirit but a simple revolver makes you just some guy with a gun. When you come down to it there is no real difference, both are using a weapon to perform their “heroic task” so why are magical items that can break the laws of physics ok but guns aren’t?
It isn't about the destructive ability but the uniqueness. Anyone can use a gun, but only the chosen few can use something like Avalon.

You have the order mixed up. It's not because they have Noble Phantasms that they become Heroic Spirits, but because they are unique, miraculous beings that they're able to use Noble Phantasms.
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Old 2013-04-11, 15:32   Link #4173
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I don't think people from WW1/WW2 would be able to make it as a Heroic Spirit, but not because they use firearms.

Yi Sun-Shin could probably make it as a Heroic Spirit (especially since Francis Drake did) and he is known for using cannons aboard turtle ships. I don't see why older Chinese heroes couldn't make use of some firearms either, since it's more their feats that matter than the weapons used.
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Old 2013-04-11, 15:55   Link #4174
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Heroic Spirits tend to be people that are legendary, that did amazing feats. There are very few modern legendary people that would even come close to being posssible. Mostly because we don't place people on the legendary platform since probably the 1800s. You might find some legendary lawmen from the Old West, but warriors from the World Wars? Not likely. Mostly because it was those wars that made men mostly ordinary. There was no glory or honor anymore in war. Sure there were heroic feats, but legends are not something that happen often.
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Old 2013-04-11, 15:58   Link #4175
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Originally Posted by LostHanyou View Post
I don't think people from WW1/WW2 would be able to make it as a Heroic Spirit, but not because they use firearms.

Yi Sun-Shin could probably make it as a Heroic Spirit (especially since Francis Drake did) and he is known for using cannons aboard turtle ships. I don't see why older Chinese heroes couldn't make use of some firearms either, since it's more their feats that matter than the weapons used.
Didn't the Fate/Extra universe work with different rules than the regular Fate universe?
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Old 2013-04-11, 19:08   Link #4176
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Well I did think about the Heroic Spirits being awesome and then taking the NP but that doesn’t work always. You see if we go by the fact that anyone can use a gun anyone can use a sword to cut someone. And both need training and time to master, agree one is simple to use in some levels but again: what is so special about the sword? With this logic a bow is also something anyone can use and the same with spears and other weapons. Hey many heroes were only heroes because they had their NP even Saber will be nobody without Caliburn or Excalibur. And we can’t pretend that having such powerful swords doesn’t help you in battle. Even Shirou who recreated Caliburn was able to use it and keep fighting a Servant one on one and Excalibur is the most powerful sword or second but I am trying to make a point there.. If the idea of people who use guns not being able to become Heroic Spirits because anyone can use a gun, then anyone can use any weapon.

My point is that the idea of “anyone can use a gun” or “guns make it so easy” should not be the factor that determinates if one can be a Heroic Spirit or not. In the end all you need is a bunch of people that think you are awesome and then you can be an Heroic Spirit, if we also go by the fact that some of them weren’t real people but just legends like Assassin in Fate/Stay Night. So what could be the true decisive factor on Heroic Spirits?
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Old 2013-04-11, 19:49   Link #4177
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Someone hailed by people as a great force of good or a great force of evil. The concept of a legend surrounding them overrides their actual person and once summoned the concepts become the reality to determine who they are.
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Old 2013-04-11, 21:36   Link #4178
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Originally Posted by demino_hellsin View Post
Someone hailed by people as a great force of good or a great force of evil. The concept of a legend surrounding them overrides their actual person and once summoned the concepts become the reality to determine who they are.
But then if you become a Counter Guardian, since one doesn't have a legend of their own (EMIYA), the power stats would decrease...
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Old 2013-04-11, 21:38   Link #4179
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Then again Shirou has been know from being able to pull all kind of crap out of him despite being so weak. I will not see him as a good example of "normality" on this cases.
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Old 2013-04-11, 21:49   Link #4180
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Then again Shirou has been know from being able to pull all kind of crap out of him despite being so weak. I will not see him as a good example of "normality" on this cases.
Rin rates 70-100 (competent), and Shirou rates 10 as a magus (weak).
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