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Old 2013-04-11, 21:49   Link #4181
demino_hellsin
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In EMIYA's case, his legend exists in the future. The throne of heroes exists outside of time so it doesn't matter. His legend exists but in the 5th war does not exist yet.

He is also said to be far weaker than any servant at least physically. Maybe along the lines of Shinji powered rider. His unlimited blade works draws on the NP of others so borrowed concepts and legends acknowledged by people.
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Old 2013-04-11, 22:13   Link #4182
Endscape
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Originally Posted by Sansker View Post
Well I did think about the Heroic Spirits being awesome and then taking the NP but that doesn’t work always. You see if we go by the fact that anyone can use a gun anyone can use a sword to cut someone. And both need training and time to master, agree one is simple to use in some levels but again: what is so special about the sword? With this logic a bow is also something anyone can use and the same with spears and other weapons.
Firstly, it's much easier to learn how to use a gun competently, than to use a sword, spear or a bow. Secondly, we aren't talking about normal weapons, but high class magical weapons. Not just anyone can use one of those.

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Hey many heroes were only heroes because they had their NP even Saber will be nobody without Caliburn or Excalibur.
Exactly my point. Saber wouldn't be no one without Excalibur or Caliburn, she was born with the prana of the dragon, and as such had magical abilities far beyond most humans, and that's not even including her heritage. The reason she got Exalibur and Caliburn is because she's that amazing, in fact she couldn't use her natural powers with weapons that amazing.

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If the idea of people who use guns not being able to become Heroic Spirits because anyone can use a gun, then anyone can use any weapon.
As I said, not everyone can use every weapon, the reason Heroic Spirits get Noble Phantasms are because they were special from the start.

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My point is that the idea of “anyone can use a gun” or “guns make it so easy” should not be the factor that determinates if one can be a Heroic Spirit or not. In the end all you need is a bunch of people that think you are awesome and then you can be an Heroic Spirit, if we also go by the fact that some of them weren’t real people but just legends like Assassin in Fate/Stay Night. So what could be the true decisive factor on Heroic Spirits?
Assassin isn't a Heroic Spirit, but something similar to a wraith. He was only summoned because of Caster's magic and because the Grail was messed up.

You need more than being famous to be a Heroic Spirit, you need to be an unique existence.
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Old 2013-04-11, 23:04   Link #4183
Sansker
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Is really easy to learn how to use a sword a bow or a spear if we simplify as much the concept of using a gun as well. Just make sure the pointy part hits the other guy, and there you go. This isn’t rocket science either. I am saying this idea of gun users being not legendary because of their guns doesn’t really hold much ground on that light. But I can’t be sure, on this matter much of this is really speculation.

I see your points however; I just don’t really buy the entire concept of ancient weapons complicated and guns simple. With the idea of Saber we are saying all Heroic Spirits were awesome even before getting their NP, so why one can’t be awesome before getting the gun? Or is the gun taking that awesomeness away. I know is a simple argument but is just to illustrated how the idea sounds to me despite actually seeing where you came from. A special existence that ends being a legend because it does great things, I get it. But that doesn’t mean you can’t be special just because you use guns with seems to be the problem with Heroic Spirits not being gunslingers.

All Assassins are wraiths if what I read about them is right. But that just mean they are ghost without names force to be a legend. So the Grail has always been mess up with the Assassin Servants but that is a complete different thing. In any case you are right, you need more than being famous.
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Old 2013-04-12, 06:27   Link #4184
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Is really easy to learn how to use a sword a bow or a spear if we simplify as much the concept of using a gun as well. Just make sure the pointy part hits the other guy, and there you go.
I'm glad people don't ever move, or resist, or fight back.

Quote:
I am saying this idea of gun users being not legendary because of their guns doesn’t really hold much ground on that light.
It makes perfect sense. Weapons that actually require skill to use, in both offense and defense, are vastly different from a weapon where you can "pray and spray" or "point and click".

Also, stop arguing about this. Nasu himself has said gun wielders won't be heroes, and the game itself said that modern persons are infinitely less likely to become heroes in the same way that magic has dumbed down as time went on. It's why someone like Medea is so strong. Her magic is from the time of the gods, so even her simple magic would be complex or impossible for current magi.
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Old 2013-04-12, 07:35   Link #4185
demino_hellsin
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Say hello to pirate rider. Ahoy fate extra

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Old 2013-04-12, 09:05   Link #4186
maximilianjenus
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ryougi shiki.
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Old 2013-04-12, 09:43   Link #4187
GDB
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Originally Posted by demino_hellsin View Post
Say hello to pirate rider. Ahoy fate extra

Fate/Extra uses the Moon Cell, not the Holy Grail. The Moon Cell has access to anyone of note in history, regardless of "legendary" or "heroic" status. This is also why it has no problem putting an irregular Assassin in the Assassin class.
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Old 2013-04-12, 11:57   Link #4188
Sansker
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True, Nasu did say that
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Old 2013-04-12, 14:16   Link #4189
bhl88
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They (gunslingers) probably need to be known for something miraculous..... defeating an army of 1000 alone with just the handgun or something.
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Old 2013-04-12, 14:20   Link #4190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GDB View Post
Fate/Extra uses the Moon Cell, not the Holy Grail. The Moon Cell has access to anyone of note in history, regardless of "legendary" or "heroic" status. This is also why it has no problem putting an irregular Assassin in the Assassin class.
The best examples are both Arcueid and Tamamo-no-Mae summoned as Servants. They're both limited in power compared to what they should be able to do, but even then, they put extreme stress on the system just to keep them around.

I mean, when you beat Arcueid in Fate/Extra, instead of being deleted, she just goes "huh, I'm bored, going back to Shiki, oh, hey, when I see you next, I'll kill you, kthxbai.", rips a hole through the Moon Cell and goes back to Shiki.

Besides, Assassin in Fate/Extra had the presence concealment ability, I think he could get summoned as an Assassin no matter what.
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Old 2013-04-12, 14:24   Link #4191
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Wait, Tamamo can't be summoned in the Grail cause her wish was: "wants to be a good wife?"
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Old 2013-04-12, 15:21   Link #4192
GDB
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Besides, Assassin in Fate/Extra had the presence concealment ability, I think he could get summoned as an Assassin no matter what.
Assassin has to be Hassan-i Sabah. The Fate/Extra Assassin is not. Therefore, it does not follow the same rules and guidelines as the Holy Grail. Presence Concealment is a class ability, so anyone put into that class (be it irregular summoning or alternate source like the Moon Cell) will have it.
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Old 2013-04-12, 15:40   Link #4193
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Wait, Tamamo can't be summoned in the Grail cause her wish was: "wants to be a good wife?"
No, because she's a divine being. Remember what happened when they summoned Angra Mainyu in the 3rd war?

GDB - then why can other Servants qualify for Assassin, even in FSN (Hercules qualifies for all but Caster, for example) if only one person can be assassin?
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Old 2013-04-12, 17:11   Link #4194
GDB
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GDB - then why can other Servants qualify for Assassin, even in FSN (Hercules qualifies for all but Caster, for example) if only one person can be assassin?
They cannot. Hercules is listed as all but Caster, but the rules state that only Hassan-i Sabah can be Assassin. Meaning, of the available classes that he could potentially be in (6 remaining), he cannot be Caster.

Also, Hassan-i Sabah isn't a single person. It's 19 different people who share the same name. They also all share the same Noble Phantasm, though each one uses it differently.
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Old 2013-04-12, 18:31   Link #4195
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Ah, okay. So, someone would have to be summoned irregularily (like FSN Fake Assassin) to make the class (outside of a special situation) then?
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Old 2013-04-12, 18:33   Link #4196
GDB
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That is correct.
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Old 2013-04-12, 18:47   Link #4197
Sansker
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But then what about the other Servants? I mean in Zero we see that the Caster presented was just there to fill the page, as the person he was in live was more of a knight than a mage and even when play with dark magic he did just for a short period of time. So could be that other Servants were summon in classes they don’t match just to fill the page? Like Sasaki, aberration in the system or not, was put in the Assassin vessel by mistake since a samurai is nothing like an Assassin.
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Old 2013-04-15, 23:26   Link #4198
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Is there a skill/NP that is fatal to those with a low endurance rank?
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Old 2013-04-16, 06:26   Link #4199
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Is there a skill/NP that is fatal to those with a low endurance rank?
Bloodfort Andromeda?
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Old 2013-04-16, 13:20   Link #4200
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I think it only best works on people... on Servants, I'm not sure if they can withstand the effects via having high endurance ranking (B and above)
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