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Old 2014-03-12, 14:14   Link #4901
Brother Coa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ukulelembo View Post
Series probably isn't called "Fate" without reason.
It's called 'Fate' because it talks about decisions, scarifies and one's determination in shaping their own fate., as well as fate of others.
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Old 2014-03-12, 14:15   Link #4902
Cherry_Lover
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The thing is that the Throne being separate from any universe doesn't really make sense. Someone who is a hero in one universe may not be in another, and the same person could become a hero in different ways.

Plus, Alaya and Gaia should be world-dependent (otherwise it wouldn't matter to them if one continuity got wiped out, because there are an infinite number more), and Alaya calls on Counter Guardians which are in the Throne or something similar, so it can't be that simple.
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Old 2014-03-12, 14:56   Link #4903
ukulelembo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
it wouldn't matter to them if one continuity got wiped out, because there are an infinite number more
Exactly this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
and Alaya calls on Counter Guardians which are in the Throne or something similar, so it can't be that simple.
I recommend you read this:
http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Heroi...rone_of_Heroes

Quote:
The Throne itself, just like Akasha, is a place that is outside any parallel world or timeframe, which is also a factor that makes it possible for them to be summoned into any age. Should their legends disappear, they will become nameless Heroes that are simply considered Guardians.
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Old 2014-03-12, 16:31   Link #4904
chaos_alfa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ukulelembo View Post
Exactly this.


I recommend you read this:
http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Heroi...rone_of_Heroes
Quote:
The Throne itself, just like Akasha, is a place that is outside any parallel world or timeframe, which is also a factor that makes it possible for them to be summoned into any age. Should their legends disappear, they will become nameless Heroes that are simply considered Guardians.
I suppose a Heroic Spirit becoming a Counter Guardians in your quote is only relative to the world where their legend has disappeared and the time after it. Because I assume their are almost infinite parallel worlds and not in all of them at every moment in time the legend of that particular copy of a hero doesn't exist?
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Old 2014-03-13, 07:55   Link #4905
Cherry_Lover
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ukulelembo View Post
Exactly this.
Then why bother sending Counter Guardians, or doing anything? Nothing they do makes any difference to the survival of humanity throughout all possible universes.

Quote:
I recommend you read this:
http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Heroi...rone_of_Heroes
Yeah, completely-unsourced statements taken from a wiki that the fandom generally recognises as unreliable do not constitute proof....
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Old 2014-03-14, 09:53   Link #4906
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The Heaven's Feel ritual reaches the Root by tracing the return path to the Throne of the fallen copies of the Heroic Spirit. In fact, if you check out Mahoyo, establishing "path" is always necessary if one wants to reach the Root. The Einzbern method just happens to be "follow the Heroic Spirit". Since there is only one Root among all universes, and the Throne is at the Root, the logical conclusion is that there is only one Throne.

Also it's made pretty clear here. There's no need even to speculate.
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Old 2014-03-14, 09:57   Link #4907
Touko
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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
Then why bother sending Counter Guardians, or doing anything? Nothing they do makes any difference to the survival of humanity throughout all possible universes.
Guardians are not summoned by Akasha/Root. Guardians are summoned by Alaya. Alaya is not shared across universes, and each one is a distinct entity to that universe. Of course it's to its best interest to call in the Guardians when there is threat.
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Old 2014-03-14, 14:10   Link #4908
Cherry_Lover
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Touko View Post
The Heaven's Feel ritual reaches the Root by tracing the return path to the Throne of the fallen copies of the Heroic Spirit. In fact, if you check out Mahoyo, establishing "path" is always necessary if one wants to reach the Root. The Einzbern method just happens to be "follow the Heroic Spirit". Since there is only one Root among all universes, and the Throne is at the Root, the logical conclusion is that there is only one Throne.

Also it's made pretty clear here. There's no need even to speculate.
Ah, OK.

I thought I remembered you arguing the opposite....

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Originally Posted by Touko View Post
Guardians are not summoned by Akasha/Root. Guardians are summoned by Alaya. Alaya is not shared across universes, and each one is a distinct entity to that universe. Of course it's to its best interest to call in the Guardians when there is threat.
Hang on, so CGs are shared between all the different versions of Alaya? How does CG contract-making (Archer, for example) work, then?
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Old 2014-03-15, 02:23   Link #4909
Touko
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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
Hang on, so CGs are shared between all the different versions of Alaya? How does CG contract-making (Archer, for example) work, then?
In universe #34456346, Alaya made a contract with Shirou #34456346.

As a result, Shirou #34456346 was plucked out of the multi-verse, put into the Throne, and labelled as "Alaya's bitch".

So now all versions of Alaya from all versions of universe gets to take Shirou #34456346 for a spin.

Now the question that will really bake your noodles is, how many Heroic Spirit Shirous are there in the Throne?
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Old 2014-03-15, 04:19   Link #4910
Jaden
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Now the question that will really bake your noodles is, how many Heroic Spirit Shirous are there in the Throne?
I suppose in this case, it'd be just one. If he exists outside of time, there's no limit to how often he can be dispatched. This way the one Shirou also gets all of the experience, which he requires a lot of to be useful. You'd rather have one strong Shirou than offer a bunch of miracles in exchange for a bunch of weak Shirous.
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Old 2014-03-15, 07:32   Link #4911
chaos_alfa
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I suppose in this case, it'd be just one. If he exists outside of time, there's no limit to how often he can be dispatched. This way the one Shirou also gets all of the experience, which he requires a lot of to be useful. You'd rather have one strong Shirou than offer a bunch of miracles in exchange for a bunch of weak Shirous.
That doesn't have to be the case. It should be possible for a shirou from a different universe with a different history, but complying to all the conditions necessary to become a Counter Guardian to also be but in the Throne of Heroes. Because I presume there is no universe which is the first one. It will impossible to decide in your example which Shirou has more right to be put in to the throne of heroes as the only one compared to all the other Shirous.

I think there are probably almost an infinite amount of versions of a counter guardian or a heroic-spirit in the Throne of Heroes. Experience for a CG wouldn't really be a problem because if there are almost an infinite universe there is a good change a CG will be picked to fight in one of those universes and gain experience.

Last edited by chaos_alfa; 2014-03-15 at 15:08.
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Old 2014-03-15, 13:57   Link #4912
Touko
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^This guy gets it.

If there are infinite number of universes, there could be an infinite number of Shirous that made the pact with the World at some point in their lives.
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Old 2014-03-16, 06:22   Link #4913
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What year does fate/stay night take place in? Fate/zero had seemingly-modern laptops and was 10 years prior to fate/stay night, so I'm guessing it's 2010-ish, but does it mention somewhere exactly what years it takes place in
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Old 2014-03-16, 08:34   Link #4914
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2004. Fate/Zero took place in 1994.
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Old 2014-03-16, 12:32   Link #4915
Touko
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That's speculation. Type Moon wants to keep thing flexible.

The official stance is, Fate Zero happened in the 1990s, while Stay Night happened in the 2000s. Aftermath happened in the 2010s.
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Old 2014-03-16, 12:42   Link #4916
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It's not speculation, F/SN happened in the year it was released and that was in 2004. Fate/Zero was 10 years earlier, so it's 1994 ( you can see Welvet holding 1995 atlas, and back then atlas was printing for following year ).
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Old 2014-03-16, 16:49   Link #4917
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I don't think it's officially-stated when it takes place, but the 1995 atlas in Zero does imply that it took place sometime around 1995, yes. Assuming it is canon, anyway, which isn't 100% clear.

However, Zero definitely occurs around winter, and I can't imagine they would be printing a 1995 atlas in early 1994, so Zero must be either late 1994 or early 1995 on that basis. And, since we know that FSN occured in early February (the date is given in the VN), that means that FSN would surely have to be 2005.
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Old 2014-03-16, 18:04   Link #4918
Brother Coa
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Well, FSN was released in January/February 2004. And inside the game itself you could clearly see it was wintertime. Shirou by one chance even said that the snow was falling and that he was stepping on it footnaked. So FSN game date would be February 2004.
Besides, Fate/Zero winter could very well be in November or December of 1994. That would make sense for 1995 atlas. The event was 10 years apart but nobody said exactly 10 years, date by date or month by month.
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Old 2014-03-16, 18:16   Link #4919
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A better indicator of dates (for months) is how at the beginning of each day, it said what day it was, so that's not really an issue to discuss at all.

But no one would round 9 years 2 months up to 10 years. Either the Atlas released near the beginning of 1994, of FSN takes place in 2005 (if one were to take that as the go-to for when Fate/Zero takes place).
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Old 2014-03-17, 11:21   Link #4920
Cherry_Lover
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Originally Posted by Brother Coa View Post
Well, FSN was released in January/February 2004. And inside the game itself you could clearly see it was wintertime. Shirou by one chance even said that the snow was falling and that he was stepping on it footnaked. So FSN game date would be February 2004.
As GDB said, the date (although not the year) is given at the beginning of each day in FSN, so the only question is what year it was. Zero is not so clear, though, and there is no reason it couldn't be slightly earlier.

Quote:
Besides, Fate/Zero winter could very well be in November or December of 1994. That would make sense for 1995 atlas. The event was 10 years apart but nobody said exactly 10 years, date by date or month by month.
Again, as GDB said, sure, Zero could be in late 1994, but then it wouldn't really be 10 years before FSN if FSN was early 2004. That is closer to 9 years.
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