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Old 2008-02-19, 18:51   Link #1601
Kimiko Khan
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if i remember right caster managed to block some of it but it quickly tore though her defense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by iamandragon View Post
In terms of destruction power if given time to charge up without interference:
Gilgamesh(no doubt with his EA)
Saber(Excalibur is probably the only thing that can hold up against EA)
Dark Saber(although she possess higher stats, Excalibur has be down-graded...)
Rider(Outmatch Dark Saber with Shirou's help)
Lancer(Gae Bolg destroyed fake Rho Aias)
Archer(Compliments to his Spiral Sword)
Berserker(Lacks noble phantasm)
Caster(with wind as her element, she really lacks firepower...though still strong)
Assassin(no proper noble phantasm)
True Assassin(noble phantasm not for destruction...at least Assasin's katana can slice through Saber's armor...)
doesn't beserker have the phantasm hundred heads or something like that, the bow he used to kill the hydra, but he's unable to use it due to ilya keeping him in a constant state of rage and insanity.
and assassin seemed to be giving saber a difficult time in the anime. it seemed the only reason she won was that he didn't have much time left
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Old 2008-02-19, 20:28   Link #1602
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The first time Shirou release Avalon when Saber was brutally injured, didn't it reflect Enuma Elish back at Gilgamesh? Is the weapons in Gate of Babylon unlimited? How come Shirou became so tanned when he became Archer Does Saber have any siblings? I thought only King Arthur can wield Excalibur, then how can Sir Bedivere threw Excalibur back to the Lady of the Lake?
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Old 2008-02-19, 21:56   Link #1603
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimiko Khan View Post
if i remember right caster managed to block some of it but it quickly tore though her defense.
That's because Gilgamesh was in his weakened form...but yeah she did block the first wave in the anime, but not in the game...she didn't even block...that scene is really horrible...

Quote:
doesn't beserker have the phantasm hundred heads or something like that, the bow he used to kill the hydra, but he's unable to use it due to ilya keeping him in a constant state of rage and insanity.
You mean nine lives--the shooting hundred heads? It's a bow, and one that requires so much skill that Berserker can't use it in his mad enchanted state--either way, if he can't use it, it won't be accounted for...

Quote:
and assassin seemed to be giving saber a difficult time in the anime. it seemed the only reason she won was that he didn't have much time left
Assassin is extremely skilled in swordsmanship, and he did give Saber a hard time in both anime and game--Saber admitted that if it wasn't for her very accurate sixth sense, she would have been slashed by assassin from the very beginning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fate lover View Post
The first time Shirou release Avalon when Saber was brutally injured, didn't it reflect Enuma Elish back at Gilgamesh? Is the weapons in Gate of Babylon unlimited? How come Shirou became so tanned when he became Archer Does Saber have any siblings? I thought only King Arthur can wield Excalibur, then how can Sir Bedivere threw Excalibur back to the Lady of the Lake?
First of all, seperate your paragraphs, it's quite hard for others to read them if you cramp them all together.
Secondly, change your avatar! It's getting on the end of my nerves! (all right you can ignore this line...)

In the anime, it reflected Enuma Elish, in the game, Gilgamesh stopped half way because he got 'dust' on his armor and went away...
You don't need to be able to wield the sword to be able to throw it...when we say wield we mean bring out the powers--others can still hold them.
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Old 2008-02-20, 00:32   Link #1604
Alaya
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iamandragon View Post


Gilgamesh's armor is an armor that can nullify magic and is sturdy enough to withstand hundreds of slashes from Saber(without Excalibur charged up, of course)


Not so true--damage is never can be dealt onto Avalon, the bearer of Avalon escapes into another dimension which no damage can reach when it is activated--damage is shut away before it can even reach...


Caster tried blocking the swords, I guess the 'reflect' he saw is the sparks in the anime...?
Well, that's pretty normal for a Heroic Spirit's Armor :P. I think it's also depend on stat of that servant too.

About Avalon, I know what you said but I can't find a way to explain it to make it easy to understand :P.
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Old 2008-02-20, 05:22   Link #1605
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Gilgamesh's the only heroic spirit whoose armor can nullify magic, Archer class servants does not come in with magic-nullifying ability, the best they can do is to stop one of Rin's weaker magic, gran(I might've got the name wrong, but it is the one that she points and shoot magical enery out)...
And I'm sure no other servants can just stand and let Saber slash away for a whole 10 seconds without a scratch on their armor...

Saber's magic nullifying ability comes with her servant class, her armor contributes nothing in it.

Last edited by iamandragon; 2008-03-04 at 22:55.
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Old 2008-02-21, 08:37   Link #1606
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If whats you say is true about "saber ownz archer" stuff iamandragon ,then tell me what does wiki mean when it states that (im talking bout UBW scene here)

"Shirō realizes that ONLY HE CAN DEFEAT ARCHER, because he is Archer; the servant known as Archer is, in reality, the Emiya Shirō from the future."

Can Archer's Rho Aias neutralies Saber Excallibur?? I read somewhere that shirou's neutralise Dark saber excallibur.

I watch in the anime that Heracles/Berserker can withstand the fake spiral arrow. Illya remarks that
"I cant believe it.. Heracles has to defend himself."
But from what i saw in the anime (i even slow it down few times) Berserker has not made any defensive maneuvers. So how come Berserker's life is not reduced by 1?

Oh yeah does Archer's noble phantasm really include Hrunting? I thought the Hollow/ataxaria is fanmade so this is not considered as his cannon noble phanatasm.

In terms of destructive power which is greater between Hrunting and Gae Bolg?
i apologize if i ask too much question...
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Old 2008-02-21, 10:52   Link #1607
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Originally Posted by Reincarnated_Avenger View Post
If whats you say is true about "saber ownz archer" stuff iamandragon ,then tell me what does wiki mean when it states that (im talking bout UBW scene here)

"Shirō realizes that ONLY HE CAN DEFEAT ARCHER, because he is Archer; the servant known as Archer is, in reality, the Emiya Shirō from the future."

Can Archer's Rho Aias neutralies Saber Excallibur?? I read somewhere that shirou's neutralise Dark saber excallibur.

I watch in the anime that Heracles/Berserker can withstand the fake spiral arrow. Illya remarks that
"I cant believe it.. Heracles has to defend himself."
But from what i saw in the anime (i even slow it down few times) Berserker has not made any defensive maneuvers. So how come Berserker's life is not reduced by 1?

Oh yeah does Archer's noble phantasm really include Hrunting? I thought the Hollow/ataxaria is fanmade so this is not considered as his cannon noble phanatasm.

In terms of destructive power which is greater between Hrunting and Gae Bolg?
i apologize if i ask too much question...
You might have to it as mental aspect of writing. Shirou is the only one who could beat Archer's "mentality", he is the one who could show that he's not wrong. In the epilogue, it is said that Archer finally yield to his younger self. He lowers his blade because he is defeated by Shirou's determination.

I will post it here:

Spoiler for Answer.:


However, Saver at that time is quite like Archer himself, wishing to change her past like Archer wanting to kill his past self.

For Berserker, Archer shot does not powerful enough to pass God's Hand. I can't remember what is the stat of weapons require to surpass God's Hand but I think Caladbolg II could not pass it. Have to check again.

Archer really owns Hrunting. It's power is to chase it's target as long as the one who fired it still aim at the target, unlike Gae Bolg that will always fly to the target(s). I believe gae Bolg is more powerful than Hrunting, since it thrown form is ranked as Anti-Fortress but Hrunting is Anti-Unit.
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Old 2008-02-21, 15:21   Link #1608
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reincarnated_Avenger View Post
If whats you say is true about "saber ownz archer" stuff iamandragon ,then tell me what does wiki mean when it states that (im talking bout UBW scene here)
You said the keyword: wiki
Please, don't trust wikipedia...

Quote:
"Shirō realizes that ONLY HE CAN DEFEAT ARCHER, because he is Archer; the servant known as Archer is, in reality, the Emiya Shirō from the future."
Then please explain about the moment Saber is summoned, when Archer fought Berserker in Fate route, and after Shirou and Rin saved Saber in UBW...

Quote:
Can Archer's Rho Aias neutralies Saber Excallibur?? I read somewhere that shirou's neutralise Dark saber excallibur.
It's in Heaven's Feel--but it didn't neutralise Dark Saber's Excalibur, it was Rho Aias plus Bellerophon at full power(with Sakura as master, who has the greatest mana reserver) that canceled out Excalibur...and Dark Saber's Excalibur is weakened...

Quote:
I watch in the anime that Heracles/Berserker can withstand the fake spiral arrow. Illya remarks that
"I cant believe it.. Heracles has to defend himself."
But from what i saw in the anime (i even slow it down few times) Berserker has not made any defensive maneuvers. So how come Berserker's life is not reduced by 1?
Berserker has rank A in battle continuation--meaning that as long as he is alive, he can fight at his full strength without regards to his injuries, normally, Berserker stops at nothing when he's fighting, and even when hit he can still charge forward because of his extra lives, the fact that Berserker stopped charging means he has already gone into defensive stance.
And please, don't use the anime as reference as well...

Quote:
Oh yeah does Archer's noble phantasm really include Hrunting? I thought the Hollow/ataxaria is fanmade so this is not considered as his cannon noble phanatasm.
Archer's noble phantasm is only UBW, which is capable of producing any weapons(apart form EA)...so it's valid to say he can use the noble phantasm called Hrunting, but only the copied version...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaya View Post
You might have to it as mental aspect of writing. Shirou is the only one who could beat Archer's "mentality", he is the one who could show that he's not wrong. In the epilogue, it is said that Archer finally yield to his younger self. He lowers his blade because he is defeated by Shirou's determination.
Ahh, good point!

Quote:
Archer really owns Hrunting. It's power is to chase it's target as long as the one who fired it still aim at the target, unlike Gae Bolg that will always fly to the target(s). I believe gae Bolg is more powerful than Hrunting, since it thrown form is ranked as Anti-Fortress but Hrunting is Anti-Unit.
Just because it's anti-unit or anti-fortress it doesn't mean it is more powerful--for example, Gilgamesh's Gate of Babylon is an anti-unit noble phantasm, but it's clear that it is more destructive than Gae-Bolg...
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Old 2008-02-22, 20:09   Link #1609
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Gate of Babylon is anti-unit?? But all those weapons can become spiritual and shoot at all direction. I thought it was an anti-army...=.=
By the way, can Archer's unlimited blade works defeat Gilgamesh in a 1 on 1 combat?
Why can't Saber deal any damage to Berserker when her sword is invisible, I thought it was Excalibur.
Why does Excalibur exhaust so many mana even if it is only an anti-unit attack? With Emiya Kiritsugu, is it also like this?
Does Shirou have any magic mark signifying he is a magi like Rin or Illya?
Last but not least.....Can Illya grow?
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Old 2008-02-23, 04:59   Link #1610
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fate lover View Post
Gate of Babylon is anti-unit?? But all those weapons can become spiritual and shoot at all direction. I thought it was an anti-army...=.=
Surprised? Same here--Although in theory they can shoot at all directions, Gilgamesh's line of sight is a bit too...narrow--he can only see one target at a time..
Quote:
By the way, can Archer's unlimited blade works defeat Gilgamesh in a 1 on 1 combat?
Even Shirou's UBW beat Gilgamesh...I suppose Archer who have even more experience in UBW can--and thus the triangle I mentioned earlier.
Quote:
Why can't Saber deal any damage to Berserker when her sword is invisible, I thought it was Excalibur.
Berserker's body is so tough that any attacks lower than 'A' ranked will be completely nullified. So no matter how many slashes Saber does to Berserker, as long as it is not rank 'A', they will never scratch him.
Quote:
Why does Excalibur exhaust so many mana even if it is only an anti-unit attack? With Emiya Kiritsugu, is it also like this?
Well why do you think Excalibur should not exhaust that many mana? It's a frikin' laser beam you know?! It's a bit different with Kiritsugu as he is a full and well-trained mage. Saber still had the ability to fight(unlike Shirou's who collapses right afterwards) after unleashing Excalibur, but she admits it's still better that if she rest for a bit so she can recover to full strength(similar in Rin's case).
Saber is so weak with Shirou as master that she can't even break Gilgamesh's armor with her sword...
Quote:
Does Shirou have any magic mark signifying he is a magi like Rin or Illya?
Magic mark? You mean the crest on Rin's arm? No, Shirou doesn't have any. Magic crests are a way of passing down ones magic to their child, and it only exists in those old and noble families in the magic world...
Quote:
Last but not least.....Can Illya grow?
Unfortunately...Illya is going to die in an year in F/SN no matter what--she is not human, and her life expectancy is quite short...(FYI, Illya is 14 years older than Shirou)
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Old 2008-02-23, 13:32   Link #1611
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fate lover View Post
Gate of Babylon is anti-unit?? But all those weapons can become spiritual and shoot at all direction. I thought it was an anti-army...=.=
By the way, can Archer's unlimited blade works defeat Gilgamesh in a 1 on 1 combat?
Why can't Saber deal any damage to Berserker when her sword is invisible, I thought it was Excalibur.
Why does Excalibur exhaust so many mana even if it is only an anti-unit attack? With Emiya Kiritsugu, is it also like this?
Does Shirou have any magic mark signifying he is a magi like Rin or Illya?
Last but not least.....Can Illya grow?
Archer can beat Gilgy, as long as he doesn't pull out Ea :P. Shirou beats Gilgamesh because he's too cocky to use Ea since the beginning of the fight (cuz he doesn't want to use Ea on a mere human). If he use Ea, from the beginning, no one would be able to beat Gilgamesh. Even army of Heroic Spirits of Rider (his reality marble) in Fate/Zero got crushed by single Ea attack.

Actually, the beam you see from Excalibur is the light emitting from ionizing gas molecules in the air. The target of Excalibur is only a point and then when slash, it produce energy burst to that point. The energy of it is so high that ionized or change state of gas to plasma. It doesn't shoot a light beam from it :P.

Magic crest can be inherited by those who share the blood with the bearer. Kiritsugu has one but he couldn't pass it to Shirou because they are not related by blood. And most magi have Magic Crest because they don't want what they study to become a waste after their death.

I think Ilya is only about 2 or 3 years older than Shirou. Have to check the timeline again, though.
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Old 2008-02-23, 22:25   Link #1612
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whats the deal with black saber??? I see pictures of black saber all over the internet but can't seem to find it in the story....is it in the manga or fate/zero...

where can i find something with black saber in it
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Old 2008-02-23, 23:18   Link #1613
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Originally Posted by gh0stmice View Post
whats the deal with black saber??? I see pictures of black saber all over the internet but can't seem to find it in the story....is it in the manga or fate/zero...

where can i find something with black saber in it
I haven't finished playing Fate\Stay Night but I'm pretty sure that dark Saber is from one of the endings of the game.
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Old 2008-02-23, 23:31   Link #1614
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gh0stmice View Post
whats the deal with black saber??? I see pictures of black saber all over the internet but can't seem to find it in the story....is it in the manga or fate/zero...

where can i find something with black saber in it
Spoiler:


By the way, iamandragon, how in the world can Illya be 14 years older than Shirou!! Her body size is so puny.

Is Hercules the only Berserker in the Fate trilogy? His muscle is composed of what, why only 'A' rank attack can hurt him, he doesn't have an armor like Saber and Gilgamesh.

When Saber said that "Ah, there was something I kept until the end.", what does she meant by that, I don't quite understand it.

Lastly, when did Rin summon Saber? I read in the wikipidea she only have Saber after Shirou died. I am totally confused here.@@
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Old 2008-02-24, 01:26   Link #1615
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darnnit i dont think either UBW or HF are translated yet....

so i wont be able to actually see "black saber" in any of the story lines

do you think they will ever be translated???
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Old 2008-02-24, 04:12   Link #1616
Kimiko Khan
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Originally Posted by Fate lover View Post

Is Hercules the only Berserker in the Fate trilogy? His muscle is composed of what, why only 'A' rank attack can hurt him, he doesn't have an armor like Saber and Gilgamesh.
no berserker is a class of servant not something unique to hercules it just suits him well and not because of his strength. if i remember right there was something about lancer having the possibility of being summoned as a berserker due to his past life's savagery and you can wiki the berserker for fate zero.

Spoiler for why berserker needs no armor:


its wikipedia so it may not be accurate

one thing i really enjoyed about berserker is that they went with the traditional mythology of him being from ethiopia. in fact the older writings about him describe him as being a dark man i'm not sure why he was eventually changed to a white man
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Old 2008-02-24, 09:42   Link #1617
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fate lover View Post
Spoiler:


By the way, iamandragon, how in the world can Illya be 14 years older than Shirou!! Her body size is so puny.

Is Hercules the only Berserker in the Fate trilogy? His muscle is composed of what, why only 'A' rank attack can hurt him, he doesn't have an armor like Saber and Gilgamesh.

When Saber said that "Ah, there was something I kept until the end.", what does she meant by that, I don't quite understand it.

Lastly, when did Rin summon Saber? I read in the wikipidea she only have Saber after Shirou died. I am totally confused here.@@
Ilya is a homunculus, so she cannot live long as normal human. Also her growth is limited. When she was 8 years old, she weight only about 15 kilogram. Oh, I am sure that Ilya isn't older than Shirou 14 years. She born 8 years before the fourth Grail War, Shirou was about 7 at that time. She should be one year older than Shirou.

In 4th Grail War, another spirit is summoned as Berserker. Normally to summon a Berserker, you need to add one line into your summoning spell. If that line is properly added, your servant is Berserker.

Things that Saber keeps until the end are her pride as a Knight and her duty as a King. Maybe need to re-read the scene, though.

Rin doesn't summon Saber, she make contract with her after Saber's contracted with Shirou is terminated by Caster (She stabbed Saber with Rule Breaker).

Oh by the way, Sakura also doesn't summon black Saber. She devour her alive and tainted her with the "All of the Evil of this world" that is kept in her and make Saber her Servant. Also, the mark, which is not only on her face but all over her body, is the sign of that evil.
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Old 2008-02-24, 10:45   Link #1618
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alaya View Post
Archer can beat Gilgy, as long as he doesn't pull out Ea :P. Shirou beats Gilgamesh because he's too cocky to use Ea since the beginning of the fight (cuz he doesn't want to use Ea on a mere human). If he use Ea, from the beginning, no one would be able to beat Gilgamesh. Even army of Heroic Spirits of Rider (his reality marble) in Fate/Zero got crushed by single Ea attack.
True...but one more problem is that Ea takes too long to charge up compared to the speed Shirou/Archer can produce swords in UBW--Shirou chopped Gil's hand off when he's trying to charge up his Ea...

Quote:
Actually, the beam you see from Excalibur is the light emitting from ionizing gas molecules in the air. The target of Excalibur is only a point and then when slash, it produce energy burst to that point. The energy of it is so high that ionized or change state of gas to plasma. It doesn't shoot a light beam from it :P.
lol Einstein JR--thank you for the explanation...

Quote:
Magic crest can be inherited by those who share the blood with the bearer. Kiritsugu has one but he couldn't pass it to Shirou because they are not related by blood. And most magi have Magic Crest because they don't want what they study to become a waste after their death.
Not really...Sakura inherited Matou's magic crest...Shirou couldn't inherit Kiritsugu because Kiritsugu's magic has been completely burned before he met Shirou. But again, since Shirou's origin is so much different from Kiritsugu it's really hard for him to even learn a bit of Kiritsugu's magic...

Quote:
I think Ilya is only about 2 or 3 years older than Shirou. Have to check the timeline again, though.
Yeah...my bad...Illya is only 4 years older than Shirou not 14...

Quote:
Originally Posted by gh0stmice View Post
whats the deal with black saber??? I see pictures of black saber all over the internet but can't seem to find it in the story....is it in the manga or fate/zero...

where can i find something with black saber in it
Dark Saber is...
Spoiler for game spoiler, careful!:


[QUOTE=Fate lover;1419041]By the way, iamandragon, how in the world can Illya be 14 years older than Shirou!! Her body size is so puny. [/spoiler]
Illya's mother is a homunculus, and so is she--she stopped aging since 8...

Quote:
Is Hercules the only Berserker in the Fate trilogy? His muscle is composed of what, why only 'A' rank attack can hurt him, he doesn't have an armor like Saber and Gilgamesh.
Hercules is the only Berserker in the game--it's not his muscle strong...it's just a property of Berserker...hard to explain...but I think it's from his rank 'A' endurance...

Quote:
When Saber said that "Ah, there was something I kept until the end.", what does she meant by that, I don't quite understand it.
Where did she say it again?

Quote:
Lastly, when did Rin summon Saber? I read in the wikipidea she only have Saber after Shirou died. I am totally confused here.@@
Rin did not summon Saber, but look forward to the UBW English patch release! (please don't read wikipedia...it's really inaccurate...unless you only trust the anime version...)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimiko Khan View Post
no berserker is a class of servant not something unique to hercules it just suits him well and not because of his strength. if i remember right there was something about lancer having the possibility of being summoned as a berserker due to his past life's savagery and you can wiki the berserker for fate zero.

Spoiler for why berserker needs no armor:


its wikipedia so it may not be accurate

one thing i really enjoyed about berserker is that they went with the traditional mythology of him being from ethiopia. in fact the older writings about him describe him as being a dark man i'm not sure why he was eventually changed to a white man
Berserker is one of the two classes that the masters can choose before summoning--which is Illya's case. The Einsbern added a 'mad' property when summoning the servant, so no matter who's summoned, it'll turn Berserk and thus be a Berserker class servant...Herculas has the attributes to be all of the 7 traditional classes except for Caster
God hand only gives extra lifes, not defense, unfortunately. I went back to the game and checked his status...
Once again wikipedia, stay away from them..

And can you guys please use spoiler tags for spoilers...?

Last edited by iamandragon; 2008-02-24 at 11:01.
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Old 2008-02-24, 15:03   Link #1619
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i have another question...

in the anime, emiya senior had commanded saber to destroy the holy grail....saber had to follow his orders because he used a command spell


but then it appear 10 years later??? how did this happen if it was destroyed in the previous "grail war"????


shiro knew about his fathers attempt at destroying the holy grail in the previous "grail war" so why did he command saber to destroy the grail again???will it not just re-appear in another 10 years???

this has been bugging me for a while
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Old 2008-02-24, 18:13   Link #1620
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gh0stmice View Post
darnnit i dont think either UBW or HF are translated yet....

so i wont be able to actually see "black saber" in any of the story lines

do you think they will ever be translated???
Of course they will, as long as people wants to read it, it will be translated, so relax and wait.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gh0stmice View Post
i have another question...

in the anime, emiya senior had commanded saber to destroy the holy grail....saber had to follow his orders because he used a command spell


but then it appear 10 years later??? how did this happen if it was destroyed in the previous "grail war"????


shiro knew about his fathers attempt at destroying the holy grail in the previous "grail war" so why did he command saber to destroy the grail again???will it not just re-appear in another 10 years???

this has been bugging me for a while
I think it is because the magic power in the Holy Grail is infinite, that's why no matter how many times you destroy it, you can hardly take out a fraction of its power. Besides, Saber only destroyed the veil needed to contain the Grail, not the power itself.


By the way, how did Sakura turn evil, I read that she was bitten by a bug but somebody says she killed her brother and turned insane causing the dark powers to engulf her.

So, to conclude...Berserker is the strongest class since it need more mark..haha

Unlimited Blade Works is faster than Enuma Elish, but Archer need to recite a poem before unleashing it while E.E just need to be charged for a few seconds
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