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Old 2008-04-20, 07:33   Link #1761
iamandragon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blade_Lord View Post
Vague answer... but its an answer nonetheless. Did dark saber uses her excallibur in that battle?
No, but she did fight with the speed of sound.

Quote:
Thats why i ask how fast can he trace his noble phantasm. Charging may differs for diffrent Noble phantasm i know but why bother charging it when you can broke your opponent NP with the copies.
For Archer to break his opponent's Noble Phantasm along with his copy, he will have to use Broken Phantasm to raise it up by one rank, which needs charging up. After next weekend when I finish my dissertation will I show precise calculations on how fast Archer can trace.

Quote:
Then again i'm saying this by referring the UBW route in which Gilgamesh shoots down his Noble phantasm and shirou cancels it out with his own copies.
He didn't destroy Gilgamesh's Noble Phantasm in that case. All he need to do is to deflect Gilgamesh's weapons with his own so they don't land on him, so there's no need for such power.

Quote:
So your saying those of A rank mana the only one that can resist rider petrification eyes?
No. Those with 'A' rank magic resistance are the only ones that can be completely unaffacted by Rider's Petrification Eyes. However, with lower magic resistance, one can weaken its effect, to be slowed down instead of turned into stone completely.

Quote:
Hmm shouldn't it be faster? I mean Archer has more experience in tracing than shirou....
There's still a limit on how fast one can do one action. Shirou have already reached the maximum tracing speed that anyone can achieve. Plus, both of them are actually just taking out the weapons from their inner world(UBW).

Quote:
The fuyuki said something about projection is completely useless in combat... so projection is intended for normal everyday uses??
No. Projection, originally is for people to re-produce items long lost artifacts for ritual purpose. Projected items are supposed to be extremely weak and break easilly, waste way too much mana, and disappears after a while. It is only used if it is absolutely needed for a couple minutes in practical use.

Quote:
Alteration... Did shirou or archer ever uses this in the 3 routes of Fate Stay Night??
No. Only in the dead end.
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Old 2008-04-21, 06:42   Link #1762
Blade_Reaper387
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I got a random qn after replayin the game : How can shirou trace avalon (when fightin Gil in fate route). I thought since he cant trace Gil's Ea cuz the materials doesnt exist animore... he wont be able to trace avalon since its forged by fairies in the fairy world (i think)...

Also, i still think archer is able to OWN berserker. I mean surely he can trace caliburn/excalibur and jus stab/cut/blast/or wadever Lol to kill him (12x) so why did HE LOSE ???
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Old 2008-04-21, 07:00   Link #1763
Blade_Lord
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Calliburn and excallibur are different....also i think the major reason why archer lost is because he was hack by saber during their first encounter...glad archer don't have any hard feelings for saber and also volunteer to hold Berserker.

Quote:
After next weekend when I finish my dissertation will I show precise calculations on how fast Archer can trace.
Take your time...Im sure archer should be able to trace calliburn like shirou did and kill Berserker 7 times at the least..

When archer activates his reality marble how far should you be to not be affected by it??

How does Saber sixth sense work?? By range or what??

Quote:
No. Only in the dead end.
And what did he alter??

Does the time for charging each of Noble phantasm varies??

How powerful would it be if Gilgamesh EVER decided to use his EA as Broken NP?

Does Saber really deflect Gilgamesh EA in the last battle like in the game??

I read Shirou used Rho Aias to block Dark Excallibur beam blast....
Did all the petal shatters?? How much petal would the real excallibur shatters??
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Old 2008-04-21, 17:06   Link #1764
iamandragon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blade_Reaper387 View Post
I got a random qn after replayin the game : How can shirou trace avalon (when fightin Gil in fate route). I thought since he cant trace Gil's Ea cuz the materials doesnt exist animore... he wont be able to trace avalon since its forged by fairies in the fairy world (i think)...
Avalon has been in his body for a long time, so it's no wonder that parts of his body is altered by Avalon. To Shirou in Fate route, Avalon is actually the easiest Noble Phantasm to trace.

Quote:
Also, i still think archer is able to OWN berserker. I mean surely he can trace caliburn/excalibur and jus stab/cut/blast/or wadever Lol to kill him (12x) so why did HE LOSE ???
Dig a few pages back and find out why and exactly why Archer can never beat Berserker given any condition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blade_Lord View Post
Take your time...Im sure archer should be able to trace calliburn like shirou did and kill Berserker 7 times at the least..
Only true for the first half. The power of Caliburn can only be unleashed when held by its own Saber. That's why you both Shirou and Saber have to hold the sword together in the decisive battle--Shirou to maintain the existence and Saber to unleash its true powrs.

Quote:
When archer activates his reality marble how far should you be to not be affected by it??
I'll try do calculations next week.

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How does Saber sixth sense work?? By range or what??
How does your sixth sense work?

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And what did he alter??
Kansha and Bakuya were not altered, only suppressed. The two of the twin blades are so powerful that just wielding the true form of them sucks mana from the user like a whirlpool.

Quote:
Does the time for charging each of Noble phantasm varies??
Does the time for charging of each laptops varies?

Quote:
How powerful would it be if Gilgamesh EVER decided to use his EA as Broken NP?
No idea...

Quote:
Does Saber really deflect Gilgamesh EA in the last battle like in the game??
The anime is false--Avalon was shown completely in the wrong way. But the final slash is the same as the game.

Quote:
I read Shirou used Rho Aias to block Dark Excallibur beam blast....
Did all the petal shatters?? How much petal would the real excallibur shatters??
Shirou didn't block Excali-beam ver.D with Rho Aias--he reinforced Rider who was charging at Saber with Rho Aias. None of the petal shattered.

Last edited by iamandragon; 2008-04-21 at 17:19.
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Old 2008-04-21, 17:13   Link #1765
OceanBlue
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blade_Reaper387 View Post
I got a random qn after replayin the game : How can shirou trace avalon (when fightin Gil in fate route). I thought since he cant trace Gil's Ea cuz the materials doesnt exist animore... he wont be able to trace avalon since its forged by fairies in the fairy world (i think)...

Also, i still think archer is able to OWN berserker. I mean surely he can trace caliburn/excalibur and jus stab/cut/blast/or wadever Lol to kill him (12x) so why did HE LOSE ???
Are you sure Shirou traced Avalon?
I'll have to go through that scene again to figure out what was going on. I don't remember well.
Edit: Seems iamandragon said it.

He can trace Caliburn if he has seen it. We don't know if he has seen it, so we don't know if he can use it. Also, [This is just speculation] Archer might not be able to use Caliburn to the same proficiency that Saber can use it. Realize that the reason Caliburnn broke for Saber in her first life back in Britain was because she went against the code of chivalry. I doubt Archer follows the code of chivalry, so it probably wouldn't be effective for him.
He cannot use a full-powered Excalibur blast, and God's Hand allows Berserker to be immune [I might need confirmation on "immunity"] to it in the future if he survives.
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Old 2008-04-21, 17:21   Link #1766
iamandragon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OceanBlue View Post
Are you sure Shirou traced Avalon?
I'll have to go through that scene again to figure out what was going on. I don't remember well.
Edit: Seems iamandragon said it.

He can trace Caliburn if he has seen it. We don't know if he has seen it, so we don't know if he can use it. Also, [This is just speculation] Archer might not be able to use Caliburn to the same proficiency that Saber can use it. Realize that the reason Caliburnn broke for Saber in her first life back in Britain was because she went against the code of chivalry. I doubt Archer follows the code of chivalry, so it probably wouldn't be effective for him.
He cannot use a full-powered Excalibur blast, and God's Hand allows Berserker to be immune [I might need confirmation on "immunity"] to it in the future if he survives.
Yes indeed--the immunity part is correct.
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Old 2008-04-22, 05:59   Link #1767
Blade_Lord
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Quote:
Does the time for charging of each laptops varies?
Truth to be told i only touch a laptop once and that belong to my friend so i didnt know how lo0ng does it take to charge each one...

Quote:
How does your sixth sense work?
Saber detects something when Suichirou about to punch her but in manga when archer snipe rider who was very closed to her and yet she only know it when the shoulder of rider is blasted away...

Just wondering who is Lancer's master at the moment he fought Saber... is it Kotomine or bazzete?

How does Lancer knows that archer's class is not Saber by just looking at the clothing....

Spoiler for Fate Zero:
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Old 2008-04-22, 06:38   Link #1768
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blade_Lord View Post
Spoiler for Fate Zero:
#Waver Velvet
#Depends on who's will is stronger.
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Old 2008-04-24, 02:51   Link #1769
jkalltheway
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Question regarding the game, Is there a second H scene with Tohsaka? I was looking at the CG and there seems to be another one, first one being in the room, the second one being in school, in the classroom.
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Old 2008-04-24, 15:45   Link #1770
OceanBlue
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That's in the Heaven's Feel Route, and...
Spoiler:
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Old 2008-04-24, 16:15   Link #1771
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ah explains a lot. thanks a lot.
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Old 2008-04-26, 08:13   Link #1772
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In the anime, in the 16th episode, Shirou traces a sword called caliburn to defeat beserker. In british folklore, caliburn was the sword in the stone and completely different from excalibur. So whats the sword Saber carries normally? I would assume it to be excalibur but if excalibur couldn't defeat beserker, doesn't that imply caliburn is more powerful than excalibur which shouldn't be the case?

Whats even weirder, the title of the ep is "Excalibur, the sword that brings the promised victory" but the sword shirou traced was definitely established as caliburn because Saber called it that when he traced it.
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Old 2008-04-26, 08:32   Link #1773
Blade_Lord
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Translation problem... Excallibur can defeat Berserker I think...

Ill post back the two question here:

Just wondering who is Lancer's master at the moment he fought Saber... is it Kotomine or bazzete?

How does Lancer knows that archer's class is not Saber by just looking at the clothing....

And a few more question coming...

Why did True assassin and his master make their debut in the 2 other Fate route?

If avenger was summoned during the third(or is it fourth) Holy grail war then which class did he replaced???

Iamandragon, you said that saber should be able to defeat archer easily because of their status... May I know what do you mean by this word... Are you referring to her strength, skill mana Noble phantasm or battle experience??

Let me get this straight during the fight against gilgamesh did shirou break Gilgamesh noble phantasm or not??(I'm referring to the part where they fight as swordsman) If he did shouldn't archer be able to do the same thing??

When servants got their noble phantasm broken will they be able to use it in the next war??(provided they are summoned in the next Holy grail war...)

I don't understand this anti-???...I mean is this the one which determine the rank of the noble phantasm??

Last edited by Blade_Lord; 2008-04-26 at 08:33. Reason: Spell check
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Old 2008-04-26, 16:54   Link #1774
iamandragon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sainclaire View Post
In the anime, in the 16th episode, Shirou traces a sword called caliburn to defeat beserker. In british folklore, caliburn was the sword in the stone and completely different from excalibur. So whats the sword Saber carries normally? I would assume it to be excalibur but if excalibur couldn't defeat beserker, doesn't that imply caliburn is more powerful than excalibur which shouldn't be the case?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blade_Lord View Post
Translation problem... Excallibur can defeat Berserker I think...
No, Excalibur is more powerful, the only problem is Saber does not have enough mana in her to unleash Excalibur's power...in the game, if Shirou didn't stop Saber from using Excalibur during the fight, she'll put all her mana in Excalibur(which is around 25, compared to 1000 of Excalibur's requirement) and it still unleashed an attack that scorched the area around them and took out one of Berserker's lives.(see Tiger Dojo #8)

Quote:
Whats even weirder, the title of the ep is "Excalibur, the sword that brings the promised victory" but the sword shirou traced was definitely established as caliburn because Saber called it that when he traced it.
The episode's name is 'the promised sword of victory', which is, yes, the name of Excalibur--Caliburn's name is 'the golden sword of victory'.

Quote:
Just wondering who is Lancer's master at the moment he fought Saber... is it Kotomine or bazzete?
Kotomine has been Lancer's master ever since the beginning of Day 1 of the game. (See F/HA)

Quote:
How does Lancer knows that archer's class is not Saber by just looking at the clothing....
Hmm...where's it again? Can you point us out when and where did Lancer said that?

Quote:
Why did True assassin and his master make their debut in the 2 other Fate route?
They didn't.

Quote:
If avenger was summoned during the third(or is it fourth) Holy grail war then which class did he replaced???
Berserker..IIRC

Quote:
Iamandragon, you said that saber should be able to defeat archer easily because of their status... May I know what do you mean by this word... Are you referring to her strength, skill mana Noble phantasm or battle experience??
All of them. Also, their class made the difference. ability given to Archer class heros are Magic Resistance(D) and Independent Action(B), which gives no advantage to one in one-on-one combat, while Saber has Magic Resistance(A) and Riding(B), the later can significantly improve combat ability. (see F/Z) Also, Archer has the inherit skill Clairvoyance(C), Magic(C), and Mind's Eye(B), the first being useless in combat, the second nullified by Saber's Magic Resistance(A) and the third being outclassed by Instinct(A). Saber also got the inherit skill Mana Burst which is the dream for all fighters...

Quote:
Let me get this straight during the fight against gilgamesh did shirou break Gilgamesh noble phantasm or not??(I'm referring to the part where they fight as swordsman) If he did shouldn't archer be able to do the same thing??
You mean the final fight right? No. He just canceled out all of Gilgamesh's attacks. He doesn't have enough mana/knowledge to use Broken Phantasm.

Quote:
When servants got their noble phantasm broken will they be able to use it in the next war??(provided they are summoned in the next Holy grail war...)
The servant that lost their Noble Phantasm will not. However, since the servants fighting the HG War are just a copy of the original one, they'll disappear in the end anyway...every HG War are fought with different servants, even they're of the same identity...

Quote:
I don't understand this anti-???...I mean is this the one which determine the rank of the noble phantasm??
No, it's anti-XX only determines the property of their Noble Phantasm. For example, an anti-personal Noble Phantasm excels when it's used against one target, but there's no stopping Lancer from thrusting Gae Golg at a wall...

Last edited by iamandragon; 2008-04-26 at 17:14.
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Old 2008-04-27, 01:28   Link #1775
Blade_Lord
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Quote:
Hmm...where's it again? Can you point us out when and where did Lancer said that?
Its in the manga when lancer assault is blocked by archer's twin sword...
Lancer: What the hell are you? You dont look like Saber??
Archer: Are you asking for my class? Then I'll tell you that I'm archer.
Lancer: Don't f*** with me!! I've never heard of archer with swords!!

More questions:

Does servant needs to hold their noble phantasms to turn it into broken NP?? I mean can't Gilgamesh fire those noble phantasm as broken one??

Quote:
No, Excalibur is more powerful, the only problem is Saber does not have enough mana in her to unleash Excalibur's power...in the game, if Shirou didn't stop Saber from using Excalibur during the fight, she'll put all her mana in Excalibur(which is around 25, compared to 1000 of Excalibur's requirement) and it still unleashed an attack that scorched the area around them and took out one of Berserker's lives.(see Tiger Dojo #8)
So your telling me Shirou supply of mana only that much??


I should rephrase my question:

Why didn't True assassin and his master don't make their debut in the two other fate routes??

I read that when servant dies their power went into the holy grail is that correct??

How many times did archer kill Berserker?? I read in wiki its actually six but the fate project rewrote it into five... If that's true then why did they do so?? Are they trying to prevent archer from looking overpowered??

Quote:
Berserker..IIRC
What is IIRC??

If anti-XX does not determine the rank of NP what does?

Fate/Hollow ataxaria is a fan-made...are they really reliable source of info??

What is mind's eye?? And how can it be cancelled by saber's instinct??

Quote:
Reincarnated_Avenger: Does anyone know what is the catalyst used to summoned angra mainyu??
Quote:
Iamandragon: Mayonese..
Another metaphor?? Or are you being sarcastic that time??

How much mana reserve does Saber has??

When archer traced Noble phantasm the NP he projected is lowered by one rank...Why??
And can someone tell me how much one rank difference is??
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Old 2008-04-27, 08:10   Link #1776
OceanBlue
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Random stuff about your questions:

The manga isn't canon. The fault in that lies with the mangaka, not with Fate/Stay Night.

Fate/Hollow Ataraxia isn't fanmade. It's a fan-disc made by Type-Moon.
As in, for the fans, not by fans.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuyuki Wiki
Eye of the Mind (True) - Perception/judgment ability gained through training.
B: Calm analysis of battle situation and conclusion of action during a tight spot through "theory of battle". As long as there is a 1% chance of turning the tables on the opponent, can execute a strategy to reel in that chance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuyuki Wiki
Instinct - The constant ability to "feel" the most appropriate development during a battle for oneself.
A: Close to sharpenned sixth sense or prediction of the future. Reduces effects of visual and auditory obstructions by half.
When a servant dies, their power is used to summon the Holy Grail. So yes, it goes into the Grail.

Tracing in general lowers the rank of one Noble Phantasm by 1.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fate/Stay Night
"Servant... Lancer-----------"
"That's right. And your servant is Saber ... Or maybe not. Who the hell are you?
There's no sign of his previous casual demeanor.
[Fill in rest of text].
"...Heh. You're not the type to engage in one-on-one combat. So you must be Archer."
He finds out through speculation and analysis.

Archer kills Berserker 6 times.

The reason True Assassin and his master don't make appearances in the other routes is because Fate/Stay Night runs on the alternate universes idea. Basically, something that happens in one might not happen in another [due to things not happening in the past, things happening in the past, the choice of a person, etc.], causing different paths [routes] within the different dimensions.
Something like that, anyways.

Ah, I figured out why I couldn't find Marble Phantasm on Fuyuki. It's in Parameters, not spells.

Last edited by OceanBlue; 2008-04-27 at 08:33.
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Old 2008-04-27, 08:30   Link #1777
Blade_Lord
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fate/Stay Night
"Servant... Lancer-----------"
"That's right. And your servant is Saber ... Or maybe not. Who the hell are you?
There's no sign of his previous casual demeanor.
[Fill in rest of text].
"...Heh. You're not the type to engage in one-on-one combat. So you must be Archer."
And yet archer defend himself spectacularly during his fight against Lancer. He's able to hold in his own me lee combat. So what gives?
Unless archer uses his bow during that encounter he can also be thought of as rider or even assassin....Definitely not Berserker as he retains his ability to talk nor can he be caster...a weak magi like him would be a laughing stock to those of caster class..

Alternate universe...sure but the peeps living there are still the same right?? I mean unless true assassin and his master got kill by other servant/master (which nasu should tell us FSN fans) they should still show up in those two... Or does nasu prepared a bad ending to those two in the third holy grail war...
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Old 2008-04-27, 11:46   Link #1778
OceanBlue
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He's able to defend himself well. It's already shown that although Archer was able to survive a serious Lancer, he ended up severely damaged while Lancer more-or-less didn't gain much damage. Saber shows that even if she was summoned by Shirou and had her stats reduced, she is able to fight off Lancer.

Remember, Lancer's power could be affected by the command that his master placed on him. I'm not sure what the exact command was, but since Lancer was only allowed to scout at that point, it could be that the command seal reduced his stats by one rank.

He can't be thought of as Assassin. Assassins specialize in Presence Concealment and are generally of the Hassans.

It's also possible that it was an accurate guess. Nasu is a human writer, so it's not like everything can be explained in a concise manner.

Why should they show up in the other two? We have no idea of Sakura's history in two routes and Saber's motivation isn't touched on as much in UBW.

Seeing as I haven't played the route, it could be that the mobilization of True Assassin and his master are caused by Sakura, but since Sakura is left out of two routes, they aren't used in the two routes.
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Old 2008-04-27, 14:35   Link #1779
iamandragon
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Too many questions to answer...it's spoiler sorting time--I won't be posting any spoilers in this post so feel free to open any spoilrs!

Spoiler for Lancer recognizing Archer:


Spoiler for Broken Phantasms:


Spoiler for Shirou's low mana supply:


Spoiler for Why they didn't show up?:


Spoiler for after servants dies...?:


Spoiler for Berserker's death count:


Quote:
What is IIRC??
If I Recall Correctly

Spoiler for NP's ranking:


Spoiler for is F/HA reliable?:


Spoiler for Archer vs Saber!:


Spoiler for Angry Mayo:


Spoiler for Saber's mana reserve:


Spoiler for Archer and projected weapons:


Quote:
Originally Posted by OceanBlue View Post
The reason True Assassin and his master don't make appearances in the other routes is because Fate/Stay Night runs on the alternate universes idea. Basically, something that happens in one might not happen in another [due to things not happening in the past, things happening in the past, the choice of a person, etc.], causing different paths [routes] within the different dimensions.
Something like that, anyways.
Wrong! F/SN run on a 'small choice alters future' idea. Again, pm me to find out why.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blade_Lord View Post
And yet archer defend himself spectacularly during his fight against Lancer. He's able to hold in his own me lee combat. So what gives?
Unless archer uses his bow during that encounter he can also be thought of as rider or even assassin....Definitely not Berserker as he retains his ability to talk nor can he be caster...a weak magi like him would be a laughing stock to those of caster class..
That is because Lancer was ordered to hold back. He was given the orders 'gather information form all servants, but avoid dangers as much as possible' so Lancer is actually fighting defensively against Archer, putting all his mind on surviving and getting out later.

Last edited by iamandragon; 2008-05-20 at 08:08.
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Old 2008-04-27, 19:48   Link #1780
sainclaire
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Quote:
No, Excalibur is more powerful, the only problem is Saber does not have enough mana in her to unleash Excalibur's power...in the game, if Shirou didn't stop Saber from using Excalibur during the fight, she'll put all her mana in Excalibur(which is around 25, compared to 1000 of Excalibur's requirement) and it still unleashed an attack that scorched the area around them and took out one of Berserker's lives.(see Tiger Dojo #8)
But then in the anime, how did "caliburn" take out all of beserker's lives with one hit? or is it a translation error like Blade_Lord said? In the episode, Saber referred to the sword Shirou traced as "caliburn". Does that mean if excalibur was at its full potential, it would have taken all of beserker's lives as well?
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