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Old 2008-05-20, 11:39   Link #1841
Zarxs
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blade_Lord
This confuses me more...I may be as dumb as shirou but so basically one rank difference means what exactly??
I got a good example. Let us say Rho Aias is an EX rank skill, now if say Gilgamesh’s Enuma Elish were to hit it which is also EX it would probably end in Enuma being negated. However, if it was Archer tracing Rho Aias it would turn into an A++ and as logic dictates EX > A++ so that small decrees in rank is the difference between life and death. At least, in some situations.
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Old 2008-05-20, 11:46   Link #1842
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Village Idiot View Post
Just think of it like those fake designer clothing/bags all over the place.

They look like the original in appearance only, but the materials/construction is inferior.

Or copys of paintings. They might look the same, but when you analyse it, you can note the flaws in its design.

Shirou/Archer can make Noble Phantasms that not only looks like the originals, but the material composition and memories/history are exactly the same. The problem is, a Noble Phantasm is a super-natural phenomenon and Shirou cannot fully preceive it, and thus the copy isn't as pure as the original.

Something like that anyways.
That's infinitely close to the truth I think. The final bit about Shirou not understanding super-natural phenomenon has no reference, but it is the only rational reason why tracing is imperfect. Thanks Village_Idiot for coming up with this great idea!
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Old 2008-05-20, 11:57   Link #1843
Village Idiot
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Originally Posted by Zarxs View Post
I got a good example. Let us say Rho Aias is an EX rank skill, now if say Gilgamesh’s Enuma Elish were to hit it which is also EX it would probably end in Enuma being negated. However, if it was Archer tracing Rho Aias it would turn into an A++ and as logic dictates EX > A++ so that small decrees in rank is the difference between life and death. At least, in some situations.
EX isn't a fixed/estimated power rank like E --> A++, it just means something so powerful that it cannot accurately be measured on the normal ranking scale.

Every EX Noble Phantasm is weaker/stronger when compared to other EX NPs, but are so powerful that if you want to classify them on the ranking scale, they'll be like A+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ or something.

Like Ea would be A++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ , and Avalon would be A+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++

An example is Iskander's EX Noble Phantasm, Aionian Hetairoi, is an EX Reality Marble that summons Iskander's army as Heroic Spirits. But Ea destroyed 1/2 the army along with causing the Reality Marble to collapse, thus defeating Aionian Hetairoi.
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Old 2008-05-20, 12:03   Link #1844
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Village Idiot View Post
EX isn't a fixed/estimated power rank like E --> A++, it just means something so powerful that it cannot accurately be measured on the normal ranking scale.

Every EX Noble Phantasm is weaker/stronger when compared to other EX NPs, but are so powerful that if you want to classify them on the ranking scale, they'll be like A+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ or something.

Like Ea would be A++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ , and Avalon would be A+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++

An example is Iskander's EX Noble Phantasm, Aionian Hetairoi, is an EX Reality Marble that summons Iskander's army as Heroic Spirits. But Ea destroyed 1/2 the army along with causing the Reality Marble to collapse, thus defeating Aionian Hetairoi.
Ex rank means it is simply unable/impractical to be measured. Your speculation is right, but artifact-type Noble Phantasms having Ex rank would have 99% chance that it is stronger than a A-rank Noble Phantasm. An Ex rank is given to them because their power is simply off the scale. And Ex rank is always given to summoning type Noble Phantasms if they are capable of summoning objects of various ranks(e.g. Gate of Babylon/Aionian Hetairoi)

Funny enough, Archer's UBW is not given Ex because it is impossible to give any output greater than A++ rank and thus a range is assigned to it.
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Old 2008-05-20, 18:08   Link #1845
Village Idiot
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Originally Posted by iamandragon View Post
That's infinitely close to the truth I think. The final bit about Shirou not understanding super-natural phenomenon has no reference, but it is the only rational reason why tracing is imperfect. Thanks Village_Idiot for coming up with this great idea!
I'd also like to add that if it was something ordinary like a painting, then Shirou could actually make a full on perfect reproduction of it.

Not only could he fully reproduce the materials used in its construction, but he also applies the age, history, flaws, method of construction, and also the most important thing - the concept of its creation; or the reason why it was made is applied into the projection as well.

Meaning there is something about a Noble Phantasm that he cannot fully preceive, something that gives the projection unnecessary flaws.
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Old 2008-05-20, 19:24   Link #1846
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Originally Posted by Village Idiot View Post
I'd also like to add that if it was something ordinary like a painting, then Shirou could actually make a full on perfect reproduction of it.
I'm not sure about that. After all, Shirou have never traced anything other than weapons, and he has never trained himself in tracing. The reason he can trace weapons is because his 'origin' was swords, in which tracing is taking out things from his inner world...
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Old 2008-05-20, 19:38   Link #1847
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Originally Posted by iamandragon View Post
I'm not sure about that. After all, Shirou have never traced anything other than weapons, and he has never trained himself in tracing. The reason he can trace weapons is because his 'origin' was swords, in which tracing is taking out things from his inner world...
I know, I was just giving an example as to why his reproduction of Noble Phantasms goes down a rank.
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Old 2008-05-21, 01:08   Link #1848
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Quote:
Funny enough, Archer's UBW is not given Ex because it is impossible to give any output greater than A++ rank and thus a range is assigned to it.
Isn't that because the UBW has swords ranging from E rank to A++rank?

Anyone know what wish would Rin and archer made if they got the holy grail??

In Archer's UBW there is a few gear rotating...What does the gear represents?

What is a familiar??
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Old 2008-05-21, 01:52   Link #1849
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Originally Posted by Blade_Lord View Post
Anyone know what wish would Rin and archer made if they got the holy grail??

In Archer's UBW there is a few gear rotating...What does the gear represents?
Rin didn't have a wish. She fought for the sake of winning.

Archer's didn't seek the Grail, since he knew it was corrupted, and the reason he wanted to be summoned was to kill his former self to try and erase his existence. The Grail couldn't have granted that wish. But had he a wish, it would been for world peace.

The gears in Archer's UBW can symbolize what he had become, a Guardian whose sole role is the elimination of the few for the sake of the many, that he had lost his purpose and became nothing more than a machine doing the exact same tasks. Battle after endless battle for all eternity.
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Old 2008-05-21, 05:12   Link #1850
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blade_Lord View Post
Isn't that because the UBW has swords ranging from E rank to A++rank?
Which is why it wasn't Ex. If UBW can summon Ex ranked weapons then it'll simply be Ex rank instead of a range.

Quote:
Anyone know what wish would Rin and archer made if they got the holy grail??
Archer: same as Saber's--to kill Shirou. He never need the grail to begin with.
Rin: To learn the truth of magic and reach the origin--that's according to her father. However, Rin said she never thought about it seriously so she might just as well follow her father's footsteps.

Quote:
In Archer's UBW there is a few gear rotating...What does the gear represents?
long story short, it represents his hardened heart over the many killings he was forced to do as a Counter Guardian.

Quote:
What is a familiar??
Magical pet? Hard to explain, but something along the lines...
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Old 2008-05-21, 08:16   Link #1851
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Village Idiot View Post
EX isn't a fixed/estimated power rank like E --> A++, it just means something so powerful that it cannot accurately be measured on the normal ranking scale.

Every EX Noble Phantasm is weaker/stronger when compared to other EX NPs, but are so powerful that if you want to classify them on the ranking scale, they'll be like A+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ or something.

Like Ea would be A++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ , and Avalon would be A+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++

An example is Iskander's EX Noble Phantasm, Aionian Hetairoi, is an EX Reality Marble that summons Iskander's army as Heroic Spirits. But Ea destroyed 1/2 the army along with causing the Reality Marble to collapse, thus defeating Aionian Hetairoi.

is that from fate zero? where can i find it??
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Old 2008-05-21, 09:11   Link #1852
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Originally Posted by Blade_Reaper387 View Post
is that from fate zero? where can i find it??
Which one are you talking about? You can always give the museums a try if you're looking for artifacts.
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Old 2008-05-21, 09:56   Link #1853
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Village Idiot View Post
EX isn't a fixed/estimated power rank like E --> A++, it just means something so powerful that it cannot accurately be measured on the normal ranking scale.

Every EX Noble Phantasm is weaker/stronger when compared to other EX NPs, but are so powerful that if you want to classify them on the ranking scale, they'll be like A+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ or something.

Like Ea would be A++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ , and Avalon would be A+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++

An example is Iskander's EX Noble Phantasm, Aionian Hetairoi, is an EX Reality Marble that summons Iskander's army as Heroic Spirits. But Ea destroyed 1/2 the army along with causing the Reality Marble to collapse, thus defeating Aionian Hetairoi.
Of course, I was just giving an example.
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Old 2008-05-21, 11:36   Link #1854
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Originally Posted by Zarxs View Post
I got a good example. Let us say Rho Aias is an EX rank skill, now if say Gilgamesh’s Enuma Elish were to hit it which is also EX it would probably end in Enuma being negated. However, if it was Archer tracing Rho Aias it would turn into an A++ and as logic dictates EX > A++ so that small decrees in rank is the difference between life and death. At least, in some situations.
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Originally Posted by Zarxs View Post
Of course, I was just giving an example.
Which was not in the right, that's why he corrected you. Ex rank Noble Phantasms does not repel/negate each other, nor does A rank. Even though we say 'A' rank, that's just a measure of the range of strength it can give out. Just like grading in exam. A student can have an 'A' with 90% score while another student also get an 'A' with 100% score. But there's still a difference in the two 'A' ranked students, same for Noble Phantasms.

Also, ranking doesn't determine everything. Again, it is just a scale for us to figure out which is more destructive. An Ex rank Noble Phantasm can still loose to For example, if (Sakura)Medusa uses Bellerophon (at full power) against Alexander's Aionian Hetairo, it would probably end in defeat of Alexander. Despite being an Ex rank Noble Phantasm, servants summoned by Aionian Hetairo are not capable of withstanding Bellerophon, which is an anti-army Noble Phantasm of A+ rank.

(Actually it'll still end in Medusa's defeat, as Bellerophon can only capture 300 units while Alexander's Aioninan Hetairo can summon up to 999 units)
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Old 2008-05-22, 04:02   Link #1855
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How did you know it can get 300 unit Iamandragon?

So basically the one rank difference is like 90/100 or 99/100??

How does the holy grail determine the class of the servant if the catalyst for all servant is a weapon??

What is kotomine kirei first servant??I don't think its gilgamesh...is it??
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Old 2008-05-22, 05:22   Link #1856
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Originally Posted by Blade_Lord View Post

What is kotomine kirei first servant??I don't think its gilgamesh...is it??
i just read fate zero... it says kotomine first servant is a bunch of assassins (or an assassin with many identities) ...whereas Gil's first master was rin's father


and alexander really can use reality marble too......holy !@#$
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Old 2008-05-22, 06:09   Link #1857
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Originally Posted by Blade_Lord View Post
How did you know it can get 300 unit Iamandragon?
It says so in the status section of the game.

Quote:
So basically the one rank difference is like 90/100 or 99/100??
No. That was a vague example. Might be 70/100, might be 99.9/100. Like I said, it also depends on the Noble Phantasm. If you take the weakest of an A rank Noble Phantasm against the strongest of a B++ rank Noble Phantasm, the difference is smaller, and vice versa the strongest of A rank and weakest of B rank gives huge difference.

Quote:
How does the holy grail determine the class of the servant if the catalyst for all servant is a weapon??
First a hero is chosen according to the weapon(like Avalon->Arthur). Then it does a check on the servants avaliable, and depending on the hero's properties it assigns the a class for them.

For example, if Arthur was summoned because he/she was most skilled with sword, saber.

However, is that class is summoned beforehand, being a knight, Arthur will become rider.

If both saber and rider classes are taken, for a horseman Arthur will become lancer.

If all of the above mentioned are taken, because Arthur does not know archery/magic, the grail will randomly assign a Archer/Caster class to Arthur.

Assassin and Berserker classes are unique in a way that the magicians can choose to summon such class disregarding the original identity of the hero, and will only be summoned with special request when all the other 5 classes are summoned beforehand.

Quote:
What is kotomine kirei first servant??I don't think its gilgamesh...is it??
It's
Spoiler for fate/zero spoiler:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Blade_Reaper387 View Post
i just read fate zero... it says kotomine first servant is a bunch of assassins (or an assassin with many identities) ...whereas Gil's first master was rin's father


and alexander really can use reality marble too......holy !@#$
The servants in Fate/Zero are all well-prepared(apart from Caster), so any of them(apart from Caster) are much stronger than the 5th HG war servants.
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Old 2008-05-22, 11:15   Link #1858
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Originally Posted by iamandragon View Post
Which was not in the right, that's why he corrected you. Ex rank Noble Phantasms does not repel/negate each other, nor does A rank. Even though we say 'A' rank, that's just a measure of the range of strength it can give out. Just like grading in exam. A student can have an 'A' with 90% score while another student also get an 'A' with 100% score. But there's still a difference in the two 'A' ranked students, same for Noble Phantasms.

Also, ranking doesn't determine everything. Again, it is just a scale for us to figure out which is more destructive. An Ex rank Noble Phantasm can still loose to For example, if (Sakura)Medusa uses Bellerophon (at full power) against Alexander's Aionian Hetairo, it would probably end in defeat of Alexander. Despite being an Ex rank Noble Phantasm, servants summoned by Aionian Hetairo are not capable of withstanding Bellerophon, which is an anti-army Noble Phantasm of A+ rank.

(Actually it'll still end in Medusa's defeat, as Bellerophon can only capture 300 units while Alexander's Aioninan Hetairo can summon up to 999 units)
Is it not possible for two students to get an A and for both of those to be exactly a 95%? An example needs not get into the ridiculous complexities and intervals of how something actually works. I was trying to state a situation that would help describe the difference between no rank reduction and a rank reduction of 1 and to do this I was making those to skills the same rank (which they are not)

Let’s say I give an example and I make Gae Bulga and A++, which of course, it is not; however, it is just an example and that factor dose not matter.
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Old 2008-05-22, 15:50   Link #1859
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Originally Posted by Zarxs View Post
Is it not possible for two students to get an A and for both of those to be exactly a 95%? An example needs not get into the ridiculous complexities and intervals of how something actually works. I was trying to state a situation that would help describe the difference between no rank reduction and a rank reduction of 1 and to do this I was making those to skills the same rank (which they are not)
Possible, but what if grade 'A' ranges from 10000/1000 and 9000/10000? Your example is only applicable in a very unique situation, and have never appeared in F/SN or in any of its related articles, therefore not applicable in this discussion.
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Old 2008-05-24, 03:13   Link #1860
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i just finished the UBW plot and i got some questions to ask:

Spoiler for UBW scene:

Spoiler for UBW scene:

Spoiler for UBW scene:

When the holy grail is destroyed, will the servants remain as long as the master has the command seal and enough mana to supply the servant?

Shirou's chant was different and he mentioned "waiting for one's arrival' wazzat means?


(i apologise if those qns were asked b4 cuz im too lazy to check all the previous post)
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