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Old 2008-05-27, 08:07   Link #1901
Blade_Lord
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A question:

I think I asked this question before but here goes nothing...

Since this servant is affected by how well known they are...will Archer be more stronger if he is summoned after he become a protector of justice??

Why does neither side continued the fight??

Also if archer use a A++ noble phantasm on Berserker how much life will it cut??

What rank is Calliburn?
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Old 2008-05-27, 08:50   Link #1902
rastilin
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It was 8 steps then, I'm doing it from memory and it's been a while since I played the first section. My point though is that this is part of a specific martial school and only someone trained in that school would know them. EMIYA was making a point about the 8th step.

Quote:
Of course Saber knows what is a guardian...how can she not know what she is? What I'm saying is, when summoned to an era, the memories of the master about the basic knowledge flows towards the servants so they can fight along without any additional learnings. Imagine Shirou having to speak English...and worse, Illya having to speak ancient Greek to command language...and how on earth is Gilgamesh supposed to communicate when no one in the world know how to speak Babylon?
You are right, but my point is that this is less a function of the servants and more a function of the grail, in so far as I know. Also, I'm under the impression that Saber is not yet a guardian. She only becomes a guardian when she gets the grail, thus fulfilling the pact with the world. EMIYA's already received his wish and therefore is a fully fledged guardian.

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The second order(to scout) is a general command, so that wouldn't put too much restraint to Lancer. And after Lancer fought everyone, he had quite a lot of time to diddle around (he even showed up to help Shirou and Rin to get Caster), and if the contract doesn't protect their master, Lancer could have went straight for Kotomine.
All good points, there's either something we don't know. Or he was just biding his time for something interesting to happen.

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Since this servant is affected by how well known they are...will Archer be more stronger if he is summoned after he become a protector of justice??
No, not in so far as I know anyway. Only Servants benefit from being well known since they draw power from the wishes of humanity. Guardians get power from Akasha and don't require this. That's why they can be summoned to before they became heroes, which is assumed to be impossible with other heroes.

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Why does neither side continued the fight??
Lancer was tagging along to keep EMIYA at bay while Shirou and Rin attacked Caster and Sochiro. When EMIYA gave the impression he was going to betray caster (He had betrayed Rin earlier and switched sides), Lancer let him through. It's interesting to note that he DOES betray Caster, kills her and her master. Then betrays Rin again a minute later and takes her hostage.

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Also if archer use a A++ noble phantasm on Berserker how much life will it cut??
One, it's worth noting that EMIYA doesn't normally have any artefacts beyond B rank. The "Infinite Sword Creation Technique" can only duplicate swords up to A++ rank (Not Ea or Avalon) and they drop in one rank when duplicated. He can raise them by one rank at the expense of the sword exploding when used. So inflicting A rank damage is hard for him.

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What rank is Calliburn?
No clue, it's not mentioned. It's safely assumed to be A rank though. No clue why it killed him in one shot. EMIYA did worse things to him in the Illiasviel castle, the description of Berserker after the battle is depressing to read.
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Old 2008-05-27, 08:52   Link #1903
iamandragon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blade_Lord View Post
Since this servant is affected by how well known they are...will Archer be more stronger if he is summoned after he become a protector of justice??
Stronger than now, yes.

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Why does neither side continued the fight??
Archer never intended to kill Lancer as he has his main focus on how to hit Caster on the back. Lancer never intended to kill Archer as his main focus on keeping Archer busy from killing Shirou and Rin. After knowing Archer can get away without attacking the two he was overwhelmed by his curiosity on Archer's identity and kept a watch on him instead.

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Also if archer use a A++ noble phantasm on Berserker how much life will it cut??
Depends. Some A++ noble phantasm, such as Excalibur, can take out all 12 lives of Berserker in one go if hit, but some noble phantasm might take out less if they're weaker than Excalibur, but there are still some way to wipe out Berserker without an A rank noble phantasm.

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What rank is Calliburn?
No idea. It was never stated in the game, but should be A or higher.
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Old 2008-05-27, 09:11   Link #1904
Blade_Lord
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Shirou managed to defeat Berserker with a traced calliburn so the rank of calliburn is ex?
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Old 2008-05-27, 09:41   Link #1905
rastilin
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You mean higher than Excalibur, not likely.
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Old 2008-05-27, 09:51   Link #1906
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Originally Posted by rastilin View Post
It was 8 steps then, I'm doing it from memory and it's been a while since I played the first section. My point though is that this is part of a specific martial school and only someone trained in that school would know them. EMIYA was making a point about the 8th step.
Oh thank goddess! I thought I was in the wrong since I remembered eight too. Thanks for reminding me then.
One thing I want to say that even if Archer really lost his memory, it might just be his history forgotten. It is possible for someone to forget who they are but still remember how to solve Einstein's equation of universe...

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You are right, but my point is that this is less a function of the servants and more a function of the grail, in so far as I know. Also, I'm under the impression that Saber is not yet a guardian. She only becomes a guardian when she gets the grail, thus fulfilling the pact with the world. EMIYA's already received his wish and therefore is a fully fledged guardian.
Then I change my statement to what she will become of.
Yes, it's the grail's function to allow servants to read memories of their master.

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All good points, there's either something we don't know. Or he was just biding his time for something interesting to happen.
If Kotomine have to reserve the last command mantra to have Lancer kill himself, I'm sure Lancer will dive at Kotomine's throat/heart at any given time he has the chance, provided if command mantras doesn't protect the master.

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No, not in so far as I know anyway. Only Servants benefit from being well known since they draw power from the wishes of humanity. Guardians get power from Akasha and don't require this. That's why they can be summoned to before they became heroes, which is assumed to be impossible with other heroes.
Oh yeah...forgot that...
Actually all heroic spirits benefit from being well known, not only servants. Archer, however, was a counter guardian but not born from a heroic spirit. (heroic spirits>guardian>servants, but it is possible to start from the guardian stage to be summoned as a servant without becoming a heroic spirit. One problem is once they are killed they can't be summoned anymore as there is no 'back up copy')

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Originally Posted by Blade_Lord View Post
Shirou managed to defeat Berserker with a traced calliburn so the rank of calliburn is ex?
Might be, might not be. Really, a flaw in the storyline, this is...
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Old 2008-05-27, 10:14   Link #1907
Village Idiot
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Originally Posted by iamandragon View Post
Normally memories flow the opposite way--from master to the servants, for the servants to quickily adapt to the present world(how on earth do you think Saber learn to use CHOPSTICKS?). Well for Shirou's case because his magic is so weak it flows the opposite way...
There's actually a big hint about Saber being able to use chopsticks; She's not a complete Servant and retains her memories of every summon.
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Old 2008-05-27, 10:25   Link #1908
rastilin
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Quote:
Oh yeah...forgot that...
Actually all heroic spirits benefit from being well known, not only servants. Archer, however, was a counter guardian but not born from a heroic spirit. (heroic spirits>guardian>servants, but it is possible to start from the guardian stage to be summoned as a servant without becoming a heroic spirit. One problem is once they are killed they can't be summoned anymore as there is no 'back up copy')
I disagree completely. Based on everything I've heard, Guardians are functionally identical to Servants when it comes to ressurrection. When you make a pact with the world it's explicitly mentioned that your soul is removed from the cycle of reincarnation and placed on the throne of heroes, just like a normal Hero. In essence, the pact with the world confers all benefits of being a hero, plus extra.

It's interesting that Heroes on the throne aren't supposed to be able to change at all. But the EMIYA summoned during the war is stated to be different from the EMIYA that died during his mortal life. So it's possible that Guardians, if they're ancient enough, can experience some change. On a plus side, it might mean he gets to keep his "answer".
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Old 2008-05-27, 13:10   Link #1909
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Village Idiot View Post
There's actually a big hint about Saber being able to use chopsticks; She's not a complete Servant and retains her memories of every summon.
Good one you've spotted there. I knew I've missed out something when saying memories flowing backwards for Shirou...

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Originally Posted by rastilin View Post
I disagree completely. Based on everything I've heard, Guardians are functionally identical to Servants when it comes to ressurrection. When you make a pact with the world it's explicitly mentioned that your soul is removed from the cycle of reincarnation and placed on the throne of heroes, just like a normal Hero. In essence, the pact with the world confers all benefits of being a hero, plus extra.
Well that's because servants are from guardians. What I said is the process of a hero turning into a servant in general. A heroic spirit makes copies of themselves, which becomes guardians. And in the third, the HG summons guardians, add a few more rules and turn them into servants. It's just like cake--you put cake on cheese and you get cheesecake, you put strawberry on top of it and it becomes delicious cheesecake.

Quote:
It's interesting that Heroes on the throne aren't supposed to be able to change at all. But the EMIYA summoned during the war is stated to be different from the EMIYA that died during his mortal life. So it's possible that Guardians, if they're ancient enough, can experience some change. On a plus side, it might mean he gets to keep his "answer".
The reason Archer changes is because he is not a heroic spirit, but simply a guardian. Very similar to Saber, the original copy was sent out everytime they're summoned--they never enter the throne, and that's how they retained their memories from previous memories. (normal guardians disappear back into mana when their job is done)
And can you please refrain from saying 'EMIYA'? Even if most of us here know what you're talking about, but please take care of the new members as well.
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Old 2008-05-27, 17:57   Link #1910
rastilin
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Well that's because servants are from guardians. What I said is the process of a hero turning into a servant in general. A heroic spirit makes copies of themselves, which becomes guardians. And in the third, the HG summons guardians, add a few more rules and turn them into servants. It's just like cake--you put cake on cheese and you get cheesecake, you put strawberry on top of it and it becomes delicious cheesecake.
Hold on, that's not true at all. None of the servants are guardians with the exception of Archer. A guardian is not the same thing as a normal heroic spirit even though they can both participate in the grail war. They're mostly identical, they both use the throne of heroes and they have fairly similar systems for their memories, but that's why Saber was surprised to hear that Archer was a Guardian, it's not something that's normal.

Also, please refrain from painful metaphors.

Quote:
The reason Archer changes is because he is not a heroic spirit, but simply a guardian. Very similar to Saber, the original copy was sent out everytime they're summoned--they never enter the throne, and that's how they retained their memories from previous memories. (normal guardians disappear back into mana when their job is done)
Again I must disagree. Archer is a complete servant, Saber is the only one who was incomplete due to her incomplete pact with the world. It's specifically mentioned that every time Archer is summoned a new record is generated and this record is kept on the Throne of Heroes where his real body resides. He says this himself.
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Old 2008-05-27, 18:49   Link #1911
iamandragon
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Originally Posted by rastilin View Post
Hold on, that's not true at all. None of the servants are guardians with the exception of Archer. A guardian is not the same thing as a normal heroic spirit even though they can both participate in the grail war. They're mostly identical, they both use the throne of heroes and they have fairly similar systems for their memories, but that's why Saber was surprised to hear that Archer was a Guardian, it's not something that's normal.
All servants are former guardians, that's how the grail works. The third is true magic all right, a miracle, but even a miracle has its limits. The creation of servant-like beings(guardians) is something only the world can do. It is literally impossible for a couple households of magicians to create something that can do it itself. If you think a servant does not go through the process of having a copy sent out from the throne of heros(which means guardian), please let us know where you think servants come from.

Quote:
Also, please refrain from painful metaphors.
I have a feeling that you really hate me--my metaphors might be bad, but it's not to the point that it is painful...

Quote:
Again I must disagree. Archer is a complete servant, Saber is the only one who was incomplete due to her incomplete pact with the world. It's specifically mentioned that every time Archer is summoned a new record is generated and this record is kept on the Throne of Heroes where his real body resides. He says this himself.
Where did he say this? Which route? Which day?
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Old 2008-05-27, 19:00   Link #1912
rastilin
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Quote:
All servants are former guardians, that's how the grail works. The third is true magic all right, a miracle, but even a miracle has its limits. The creation of servant-like beings(guardians) is something only the world can do. It is literally impossible for a couple households of magicians to create something that can do it itself. If you think a servant does not go through the process of having a copy sent out from the throne of heros(which means guardian), please let us know where you think servants come from.
My point isn't that the servants aren't copies. My point is the states of being a "Counter Guardian" and being a "Spirit resident on the throne of heroes" are not absolutely linked. Most Servants are Spirits resident on the throne without being Guardians. In order to be come a eirai, they need to have a an existence worshipped by humanity. In order to become a Guardian, one needs to make a pact with Akasha at which point their soul is removed from the cycle and placed on the throne of heroes.

I'm not sure how to better explain it. They're all on the throne of heroes but not all of them are Guardians. Archer is the only Guardian mentioned so far in any of the Fate stories that I know of.

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Where did he say this? Which route? Which day?
He says this in UBW but I'm not sure which day. It's either the interlude when he's in the castles basement with a tied-up Rin or the epilogue after the game ends where he extrapolates on his answer. Probably the first, I'm not going to look it up, it'll take at least half an hour.
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Old 2008-05-27, 20:57   Link #1913
Village Idiot
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Originally Posted by rastilin View Post
My point isn't that the servants aren't copies. My point is the states of being a "Counter Guardian" and being a "Spirit resident on the throne of heroes" are not absolutely linked. Most Servants are Spirits resident on the throne without being Guardians. In order to be come a eirai, they need to have a an existence worshipped by humanity. In order to become a Guardian, one needs to make a pact with Akasha at which point their soul is removed from the cycle and placed on the throne of heroes.

I'm not sure how to better explain it. They're all on the throne of heroes but not all of them are Guardians. Archer is the only Guardian mentioned so far in any of the Fate stories that I know of.
The difference between Archer and the other Servants is that he is a Counter-Guardian; due to his pact with Akasha, he is only summoned in instances where the continual existence of humanity is threatened by humanity and nothing else.

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He says this in UBW but I'm not sure which day. It's either the interlude when he's in the castles basement with a tied-up Rin or the epilogue after the game ends where he extrapolates on his answer. Probably the first, I'm not going to look it up, it'll take at least half an hour.
You find this out from Rin in the first Interlude in Day 15.

Also in the epilogue of UBW, during his PoV of his fight VS Shirou, he flat out states that only his current summoning will remember his "answer", that he will forever curse this event.

This isn't because Archer retains his memories like Saber, its because like all eirais, he receives records of his accomplishments within the Throne of Heroes. The big difference is because he's only summoned as a Counter-Guardian, his records contain practically nothing but his very impressive kill record.

ie:

Summoned in 1965 and killed 45,754 people.
Summoned in 2542 and killed 233,432 people.
Summoned in 1850 and killed 500 people.

Within one of those records will likely be something saying he was summoned in the 5th Heaven's Feel, fought till the end, yet he somehow still exists. He wouldn't know that his summoned self had found his answer and spared his former existence, he'll assumed he failed somehow so he'll still continue to seek out his own self-destruction for the rest of eternity.
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Old 2008-05-27, 21:16   Link #1914
rastilin
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Fair enough, but I've always wondered why the personality that fought during the Heaven's Feel seemed different than the personality that gave their life in the hope that it would make peace. He couldn't have changed so much unless the record allowed enough information for his personality to shift with that knowledge; this does imply some hope for the future.
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Old 2008-05-27, 21:23   Link #1915
Village Idiot
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Fair enough, but I've always wondered why the personality that fought during the Heaven's Feel seemed different than the personality that gave their life in the hope that it would make peace. He couldn't have changed so much unless the record allowed enough information for his personality to shift with that knowledge; this does imply some hope for the future.
Most likely that while a eirai's abilities and techniques remains static, their personality can still change due to their records of knowledge.

Archer became a Guardian with his heart still full of hope, and ended up spending what is practically an eternity doing nothing but reading his records, and ended up losing all hope. The major problem is that while he receives this knowledge, he doesn't actually experience it for himself nor is it in any detail.
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Old 2008-05-28, 04:38   Link #1916
Blade_Lord
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One question:Since archer is able to use swords can he be summoned as a Saber class servant??
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Old 2008-05-28, 05:10   Link #1917
rastilin
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Yes, well it's not explicitly stated, but it's a reasonable assumption.
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Old 2008-05-28, 13:42   Link #1918
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I thought I heard that the Saber class had minimum requirements they had to meet [Certain stats needing to be above a certain rank.], and I'm pretty sure EMIYA didn't meet the requirements. I'm not sure where I heard that though [Probably on Koichan or Beast's Lair.].

Why is EMIYA summoned as an Archer class? I'm assuming it's for the same reasons that Gilgamesh is summoned as the Archer class.
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Old 2008-05-28, 13:51   Link #1919
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Originally Posted by OceanBlue View Post
I thought I heard that the Saber class had minimum requirements they had to meet [Certain stats needing to be above a certain rank.], and I'm pretty sure EMIYA didn't meet the requirements. I'm not sure where I heard that though [Probably on Koichan or Beast's Lair.].
There never is a 'minimum requirement' for each class. If all other 6 servant slots are taken and Caster is summoned, even she can become a saber class servant. As such, servants will always be asigned to the class closest to their property available. For Archer's case, if Archer is summoned while an archer class servant already exist, he will have the remaining choice: saber, lancer, caster, rider, berserker and assassin.

The the grail will consider which class Archer(the person) will take. Because he have skills with magic better than swords, lance, riding and other skills(save for shooting), he'll be assigned caster class.

if both archer and saber classes are taken, then because of his experience in wielding blades (even if they're traced), he'll become a saber class servant.
And if all the above three are taken, because of his skill at riding a bicycle, he'll be summoned as a rider class servant.

And if all 4 are taken, because of his tendency to go super-hot-blood-don't-care-for-consequences, he'll be summoned as a berserker class servant. Not sure if he'll go mad though, as all known berserker class servants are summoned with a mad enchantment bestowed on them during the ritual.

If assassin and lancer classes are left...I'll let you decide...I can't tell which one he is closer to...

Quote:
Why is EMIYA summoned as an Archer class? I'm assuming it's for the same reasons that Gilgamesh is summoned as the Archer class.
Considering Gilgamesh...his circumstance is a little different. Gilgamesh was summoned the same time Berserker, Saber and Rider were summoned. At that time, assassin was already taken, while Saber and Rider were so strongly aligning to their classes that the HG assigned them those classes first. Berserker was summoned with mad enchantment so he also get priority. The left over is archer and caster. Since Gilgamesh never displayed skills with magic in his life, archer is the class he is assigned to.
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Old 2008-05-28, 13:58   Link #1920
OceanBlue
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I thought Gilgamesh was summoned as Archer because Gilgamesh uses his weapons as projectiles.

Can Emiya trace anything other than swords? I'm curious because it seems swords were the only thing he was able to successfully trace.
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