AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Current Series > Fate/ Series

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2008-05-28, 14:44   Link #1921
Village Idiot
Fate/ Stay Night
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Quote:
Originally Posted by OceanBlue View Post
I thought Gilgamesh was summoned as Archer because Gilgamesh uses his weapons as projectiles.

Can Emiya trace anything other than swords? I'm curious because it seems swords were the only thing he was able to successfully trace.
He specializes in swords.

He can create shields/armor but the mana cost is substansially higher.
__________________
Sig removed by Mod (xris) because at 65,726 bytes it exceeds the limits as requested in the forum rules.
Village Idiot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-05-28, 14:45   Link #1922
iamandragon
Martian diplomat
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Mars
Send a message via ICQ to iamandragon
Quote:
Originally Posted by OceanBlue View Post
I thought Gilgamesh was summoned as Archer because Gilgamesh uses his weapons as projectiles.
Were you seriously thinking that Gilgamesh in his life time was able to shoot swords out of thin air?
That ability is granted after he was given the Archer class. After, we can't have an archer that doesn't shoot...

Quote:
Can Emiya trace anything other than swords? I'm curious because it seems swords were the only thing he was able to successfully trace.
In theory, yes. But he is yet to master tracing so he cannot. He can only take out what is within his reality marble.
iamandragon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-05-28, 14:48   Link #1923
OceanBlue
Not an expert on things
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Oh, I wasn't thinking in regards to Gilgamesh. The tracing thing makes sense too.
Thanks for answering my questions.
OceanBlue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-05-28, 17:21   Link #1924
iamandragon
Martian diplomat
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Mars
Send a message via ICQ to iamandragon
Quote:
Originally Posted by OceanBlue View Post
Oh, I wasn't thinking in regards to Gilgamesh. The tracing thing makes sense too.
Thanks for answering my questions.
Well I was trying to be funny. Guess I failed...
iamandragon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-05-28, 18:37   Link #1925
rastilin
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2008
Gilgamesh's power may have more to do with being an eirai than an Archer. I've always assumed that they get their powers after being infused with the hope of mortals, but you'd think they wouldn't change that radically between classes. I think it was implied somewhere that Gilgamesh got his class because of his ranged skills and not the other way around, I can't source it though.

On the other hand, he's two thirds god, so who says he couldn't shoot swords out of thin air before he became an eirai.
rastilin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-05-28, 21:22   Link #1926
iamandragon
Martian diplomat
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Mars
Send a message via ICQ to iamandragon
Quote:
Originally Posted by rastilin View Post
Gilgamesh's power may have more to do with being an eirai than an Archer. I've always assumed that they get their powers after being infused with the hope of mortals, but you'd think they wouldn't change that radically between classes. I think it was implied somewhere that Gilgamesh got his class because of his ranged skills and not the other way around, I can't source it though.
Good luck trying, I'm sure there's that chance, since mine's also speculation with a little example.

Quote:
On the other hand, he's two thirds god, so who says he couldn't shoot swords out of thin air before he became an eirai.
How about 5th Berserker then? Being 90% god, he still have to move around like a human. But it's funny to imagine Gilgamesh and his enemies starts shooting swords at each other in ancient histories...
iamandragon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-05-28, 21:45   Link #1927
Blade_Lord
Lord of Blades
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: in Unlimited Blade Works
Age: 23
Just wondering, what rank is Assassin Tsubame Gaeshi/Swallow reversal?
__________________

Emiya Shirou,the Counter Guardian.
Blade_Lord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-05-28, 22:28   Link #1928
Village Idiot
Fate/ Stay Night
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blade_Lord View Post
Just wondering, what rank is Assassin Tsubame Gaeshi/Swallow reversal?
None. Its not a Noble Phantasm.
__________________
Sig removed by Mod (xris) because at 65,726 bytes it exceeds the limits as requested in the forum rules.
Village Idiot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-05-29, 01:32   Link #1929
Blade_Lord
Lord of Blades
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: in Unlimited Blade Works
Age: 23
Mhm okay...then what rank is assassin sword?

Can archer do what Gilgamesh does? I mean like tracing multiple swords without holding them and shoot them at the enemy?

Quote:
Can Emiya trace anything other than swords? I'm curious because it seems swords were the only thing he was able to successfully trace.
Yes and in the last episode of anime FSN he trace a towel out of thin air.

I was wondering is rin unconscious when shirou slice of Berserker arm?

How does a broken noble phantasm broke? Does it broke like shirou sword after slicing berserker arm or does it go out with a bang?
__________________

Emiya Shirou,the Counter Guardian.
Blade_Lord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-05-29, 04:33   Link #1930
iamandragon
Martian diplomat
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Mars
Send a message via ICQ to iamandragon
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blade_Lord View Post
Mhm okay...then what rank is assassin sword?
Tsubame Gaeshi is a skill, not a Noble Phantasm. 5th HG war Assassin is a false servant, so as a result, he does not possess a Noble Phantasm. However he is so skilled in sword that this attack poses the threat of a Noble Phatasm. Maximum capture is one.

Quote:
Can archer do what Gilgamesh does? I mean like tracing multiple swords without holding them and shoot them at the enemy?
No and yes.

Quote:
Yes and in the last episode of anime FSN he trace a towel out of thin air.
That's because he'd look cool. In the game there's no Illya on the grail.

Quote:
I was wondering is rin unconscious when shirou slice of Berserker arm?
Not sure, as Shirou didn't say anything about it. I suspect that she was unconscious for a little while, then regained her conscious, as when Shirou slashed Berserker's arm off, he only said 'Tohsaka fell with the arm that was holding her, and the sword that cut through his arm shatter like glass.' There was no description of Tohsaka coughing or making any sound when she fell.

However after Berserker disappeared it was mentioned 'Tohsaka gets up' but not 'wake up' hinting that Tohsaka was not moving because Berserker's fist was still restraining her even after she fell.

Quote:
How does a broken noble phantasm broke? Does it broke like shirou sword after slicing berserker arm or does it go out with a bang?
It 'shatter like glass'
iamandragon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-05-29, 06:35   Link #1931
rastilin
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2008
Quote:
Quote:
Can archer do what Gilgamesh does? I mean like tracing multiple swords without holding them and shoot them at the enemy?
No and yes.
In UBW he does so very thoroughly. His skills at shooting swords works exactly like the GoB that Gilgamesh uses. He kills Medea and Gilgamesh with it as well as causing significant damage to the grail itself. This without using the reality marble. The marble just makes it cheaper to do so.

Shirou can do the same but only to mirror attacks from GoB, that is he can't initiate an attack with a rain of swords, but can deflect one.

However it's only a B rank attack while Gilgamesh has it at A rank, which means it's not enough to hurt Berserker.

Quote:
Quote:
Yes and in the last episode of anime FSN he trace a towel out of thin air.
That's because he'd look cool. In the game there's no Illya on the grail.
He's got a shed filled with miscellaneous stuff that's been pulled from thin air. Unfortunately nothing but the simplest stuff ever comes out right, projection magic can duplicate nearly anything, but swords are the only thing Shirou's really good at. Shirou's skill isn't unique, nearly all mages can do it, but it's perceived as useless so no mage ever bothers training it.

Quote:
Quote:
How does a broken noble phantasm broke? Does it broke like shirou sword after slicing berserker arm or does it go out with a bang?
It 'shatter like glass'
Broken phantasms don't shatter, they go BOOM. The sword Shirou used against berserker is a Noble Phanatasm, the "arrow" archer used against berzerker in UBW is a Broken Phantasm and made a massive explosion. The "Fake Spiral Sword" shows up in episode 14 but it's really toned down; in UBW it's NP mode has a massive area effect that literally cuts the sky. In Broken Phantasm mode, it makes a massive ball of fire that can wipe out multiple servants standing close together.

Btw, it's called the "Fake" Spiral Sword because Archer made it, it's based on a Noble Phantasm that he saw once but isn't a correct reproduction. The game's encyclopedia refers to it as "Kaldbolg Mk2".
rastilin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-05-29, 08:19   Link #1932
Blade_Lord
Lord of Blades
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: in Unlimited Blade Works
Age: 23
Quote:
In UBW he does so very thoroughly. His skills at shooting swords works exactly like the GoB that Gilgamesh uses. He kills Medea and Gilgamesh with it as well as causing significant damage to the grail itself. This without using the reality marble. The marble just makes it cheaper to do so.

Shirou can do the same but only to mirror attacks from GoB, that is he can't initiate an attack with a rain of swords, but can deflect one.

However it's only a B rank attack while Gilgamesh has it at A rank, which means it's not enough to hurt Berserker.
Can you dumb this down for me...
__________________

Emiya Shirou,the Counter Guardian.
Blade_Lord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-05-29, 08:27   Link #1933
rastilin
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2008
Yes, Shirou can too; but none of them hurt Berzerker.
rastilin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-05-29, 08:31   Link #1934
Blade_Lord
Lord of Blades
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: in Unlimited Blade Works
Age: 23
Can a servant convert their noble phantasm into broken NP without holding them?
__________________

Emiya Shirou,the Counter Guardian.
Blade_Lord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-05-29, 08:35   Link #1935
rastilin
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2008
Maybe but I doubt it. Archer needs to touch a phantasm to convert it or at least has never used a Broken Phantasm without touching it first. However it's mostly a moot point because pretty much every servant would rather die than use a Broken Phantasm.

When you use it, your Noble Phantasm explodes, it's GONE, permanently. They probably come back when the servant is summoned in a different war but in the short term, it's gone and the servant won't get it back.
rastilin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-05-29, 08:39   Link #1936
iamandragon
Martian diplomat
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Mars
Send a message via ICQ to iamandragon
Quote:
Originally Posted by rastilin View Post
In UBW he does so very thoroughly. His skills at shooting swords works exactly like the GoB that Gilgamesh uses. He kills Medea and Gilgamesh with it as well as causing significant damage to the grail itself. This without using the reality marble. The marble just makes it cheaper to do so.
I don't think reality marble reduces the mana expense when shooting the swords, but for tracing, definitely.

Quote:
He's got a shed filled with miscellaneous stuff that's been pulled from thin air. Unfortunately nothing but the simplest stuff ever comes out right, projection magic can duplicate nearly anything, but swords are the only thing Shirou's really good at. Shirou's skill isn't unique, nearly all mages can do it, but it's perceived as useless so no mage ever bothers training it.
Is that so? I'm always under the impression that Shirou cannot trace anything properly other than swords as he stated that he failed in every practice in the beginning of the story.

Quote:
Broken phantasms don't shatter, they go BOOM. The sword Shirou used against berserker is a Noble Phanatasm, the "arrow" archer used against berzerker in UBW is a Broken Phantasm and made a massive explosion. The "Fake Spiral Sword" shows up in episode 14 but it's really toned down; in UBW it's NP mode has a massive area effect that literally cuts the sky. In Broken Phantasm mode, it makes a massive ball of fire that can wipe out multiple servants standing close together.
Ahh, mis-read that. I saw how 'Noble Phantasm break'. Yes they are supposed to explode.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blade_Lord View Post
Can a servant convert their noble phantasm into broken NP without holding them?
Good question...I think not, or else Gilgamesh can simply use his swords from Gate of Babylon as missiles...
iamandragon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-05-29, 08:47   Link #1937
Blade_Lord
Lord of Blades
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: in Unlimited Blade Works
Age: 23
Quote:
Broken phantasms don't shatter, they go BOOM. The sword Shirou used against berserker is a Noble Phanatasm, the "arrow" archer used against berzerker in UBW is a Broken Phantasm and made a massive explosion. The "Fake Spiral Sword" shows up in episode 14 but it's really toned down; in UBW it's NP mode has a massive area effect that literally cuts the sky. In Broken Phantasm mode, it makes a massive ball of fire that can wipe out multiple servants standing close together.
Why do they toned it down?
__________________

Emiya Shirou,the Counter Guardian.
Blade_Lord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-05-29, 09:00   Link #1938
rastilin
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2008
Quote:
Why do they toned it down?
For the same reason they took out all Archer's good lines, because the Anime didn't have time to do the whole story with the care it deserved. I mean he uses several swords in the battle with Berzerker but in the game the Fake Spiral Sword gets two scenes where it's the only NP triggered, more if you count the other times it just shows up.

EDIT: That and the Broken Phantasm's area of effect is quite possibly larger than the Illiasviel Castle's main hall.

Quote:
I don't think reality marble reduces the mana expense when shooting the swords, but for tracing, definitely.
Gilgames's shooting attack summons the swords from his vault. Archer's attack traces them in thin air and gives them velocity. His sword-shooting technique is a sub-effect of high level tracing skill.

Quote:
Is that so? I'm always under the impression that Shirou cannot trace anything properly other than swords as he stated that he failed in every practice in the beginning of the story.
He failed when he was practicing reinforcement with Rin, but he succeeded in tracing plenty of misc stuff. If you play the fate route, after Rin hands you the lamps and you fail to reinforce them, there's an option to tell Rin you've failed. Choosing it, you go to a scene where you overhear Rin complaining about all the stuff he created in the shed, which should be impossible.

Quote:
Good question...I think not, or else Gilgamesh can simply use his swords from Gate of Babylon as missiles...
Gilgamesh doesn't have as many swords as you might think. He has plenty, but if he did that he'd run out after a few salvos. Plus, it's implied that servants can create Broken Phantasms, but that doesn't necessarily mean ALL servants can do so.

Last edited by rastilin; 2008-05-29 at 09:50.
rastilin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-05-29, 10:22   Link #1939
iamandragon
Martian diplomat
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Mars
Send a message via ICQ to iamandragon
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blade_Lord View Post
Why do they toned it down?
They didn't in the game, but they did in the anime, which is quite unlucky.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rastilin View Post
EDIT: That and the Broken Phantasm's area of effect is quite possibly larger than the Illiasviel Castle's main hall.
100% certain. It blew up a whole graveyard in the game...

Quote:
Gilgames's shooting attack summons the swords from his vault. Archer's attack traces them in thin air and gives them velocity. His sword-shooting technique is a sub-effect of high level tracing skill.
Yeah, but what's that to do with reality marble? Or you mean granting the swords speed is a part of tracing as well?

Quote:
He failed when he was practicing reinforcement with Rin, but he succeeded in tracing plenty of misc stuff. If you play the fate route, after Rin hands you the lamps and you fail to reinforce them, there's an option to tell Rin you've failed. Choosing it, you go to a scene where you overhear Rin complaining about all the stuff he created in the shed, which should be impossible.
Time for revision...wait, let me finish my studies...

Quote:
Gilgamesh doesn't have as many swords as you might think. He has plenty, but if he did that he'd run out after a few salvos. Plus, it's implied that servants can create Broken Phantasms, but that doesn't necessarily mean ALL servants can do so.
True Gilgamesh doesn't have too much swords, but thing is he doesn't care about his swords. He once discarded four pretty good swords because it has been dirtied. Now that I think of it, I remember Gilgamesh have used Broken Phantasm in Fate/Zero...
iamandragon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-05-29, 10:35   Link #1940
rastilin
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2008
Quote:
Yeah, but what's that to do with reality marble? Or you mean granting the swords speed is a part of tracing as well?
To be honest I'm not sure, it wouldn't seem to be the case but Shirou can duplicate the sword attack so it's possible. In either way, tracing just one NP would normally take more mana than most magi have in their entire body at full strength. Compared to that levitating the thing and hurling it forward at a comparatively slow speed constitutes a comparatively minuscule expenditure.

I say comparatively slow because at one point, someone at the Mirror Moon forums calculated that Archer's sniping attack can hit Mach 13.

EDIT: To be specific, from his sniping position roughly 3 miles away from the Fuyuuki bridge he can strike at any person on the bridge in just over one second. This distance being well within his range.

Quote:
Time for revision...wait, let me finish my studies...
It's possible I'm the one playing too much. I haven't even finished the first volume of the book series, I also heard there's an encyclopedia out written by the original writers, I'd love to get a copy.

Last edited by rastilin; 2008-05-29 at 11:16.
rastilin is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 20:08.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.