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Old 2011-12-12, 13:05   Link #6341
careph
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GDB View Post
You find it disturbing that people aren't putting "people who are actively trying to kill you" in the same category as "innocent women and children"?
The power differential between a weak serial killer and his victims and the army of a conqueror vs. a few assassins is not dissimilar. It's both just mindless carnage. As far as enslaving and killing innocent civilians, raping women and slaughtering children are concerned, Iskander plays in a wholly different league. He and his army of "heroes" razed whole continents.

But that's not the point. When somebody cheers Ryuunosuke on, you can usually find traces of irony in the language. But the positive echo following that image was honest. On an intuitive level, that honest enthusiasm for murder frightens me a little.

Maybe it's just because I don't buy into the whole hero glorification. Most of the "heroes" of history, and of course the servants summoned in the Holy Grail War, are nothing but bloody-minded lunatics. Just looking at Iskander's facial expression in that pic where he disembowels an assassin is enough for me to realise that the only difference between a disgusting serial killer and a heroic conqueror is the body count. Unfortunately, the capacity to harm others is still a good measure for the perceived strength of a character, and admired widely.
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Old 2011-12-12, 13:11   Link #6342
Kagayaki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by careph View Post
The power differential between a weak serial killer and his victims and the army of a conqueror vs. a few assassins is not dissimilar. It's both just mindless carnage. As far as enslaving and killing innocent civilians, raping women and slaughtering children are concerned, Iskander plays in a wholly different league. He and his army of "heroes" razed whole continents.

But that's not the point. When somebody cheers Ryuunosuke on, you can usually find traces of irony in the language. But the positive echo following that image was honest. On an intuitive level, that honest enthusiasm for murder frightens me a little.

Maybe it's just because I don't buy into the whole hero glorification. Most of the "heroes" of history, and of course the servants summoned in the Holy Grail War, are nothing but bloody-minded lunatics. Just looking at Iskander's facial expression in that pic where he disembowels an assassin is enough for me to realise that the only difference between a disgusting serial killer and a heroic conqueror is the body count. Unfortunately, the capacity to harm others is still a good measure for the perceived strength of a character, and admired widely.
One of the masters in this war agrees with you. Can you guess which one?
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Old 2011-12-12, 14:42   Link #6343
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There's another expression that quite well applies: "Victors write the history".
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Old 2011-12-12, 15:41   Link #6344
Ithekro
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The difference between a serial killer and a "hero" in not just body count. Nor is it "history is written by the victors". There are stories of heroes that lost...heroically. Last stand sort of fights end up that way.

The difference is usually in the why. Why does a hero do what he does? Why does a serial killer do what he does? And how does their actions get received by the people around them?
Someone like Ryuunosuke kills for fun. No other reason.
Rider kills for his people. Historically speaking the Greeks pushed their enemy the Persians back and he decided to keep pushing all the way to Persia in an effort to end the long string of wars. At that point a matter of couriosity came over him. No one in Greek lands knew what was beyond Persia...so he decided to find out. Charisma is also a difference between a serial killer and a hero. A hero of Rider's type should inspire his men to go forth, not only for the King, but for their homes, their families, their lands. In the end, it was there desire to see their homes again that stopped Alexander the Great in India.

An good army and leader can usually drive through anything in a war. Because of all the wars fought in history, there is a certain amount of glorification of it and the heroes that fought in it. Usually it is only those that fought well and with an amount of honor that get classed as heroes in our history books. Even our enemies can be classed as heroes if they fought well and with honor. He may be an enemy, and he may not be your hero, but he is someones hero, and you might respect him for it. (The Desert Fox comes to mind)

So images of Rider taking his army out usually will inspire people. While Ryuunosuke killing a child would generally get hate. Ryuunosuke lacks Charisma and Honor (among other things from what I can tell).

(I doubt this one is possible...but I wonder if a modern "hero" would fight in one of these Grail Wars fi they had them in the future. People that are not mystical. They might only be legends do to their tactical skills, how their story become told over the years, or something. Can you imagine say, Erwin Rommel, as a Rider on a tank.)

That might make for a interesting image. Would Gates of Babylon be able to take out a Divison of magical empowered tanks?
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Old 2011-12-12, 15:58   Link #6345
Nayrael
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Quote:
Originally Posted by careph View Post
I find it somewhat disturbing how positively a scene of slaughter by Iskander is received, especially when contrasted with the depreciation and disgust associated with Ryuunosuke's killing spree.
But then again, it is I who posted it.
People don't hate Caster and his Master because they are brutal. It is whom they torture, their reasons for it and their personalities that generate hate.

With that said, people actually love depictions of brutal heroic battles, especially if it is done by the man they support ^_^;
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Old 2011-12-12, 22:22   Link #6346
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Time to interrupt serious serial killer/hero discussion with...my GARcherbread cookie!

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Old 2011-12-12, 22:36   Link #6347
Ithekro
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Saber would eat him up.
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Old 2011-12-12, 22:53   Link #6348
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Why not Rin? And after making that, I kind of want to buy a gingerbread man kit and make more Nasu characters.
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Old 2011-12-12, 22:58   Link #6349
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Saber's the big eater.
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Old 2011-12-12, 23:01   Link #6350
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Oh yeah, I forgot. >_< Somehow.
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Old 2011-12-13, 08:12   Link #6351
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Originally Posted by waffo View Post
Time to interrupt serious serial killer/hero discussion with...my GARcherbread cookie!

Delicious-!
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Old 2011-12-13, 12:14   Link #6352
Thess
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Quote:
Originally Posted by careph View Post
The power differential between a weak serial killer and his victims and the army of a conqueror vs. a few assassins is not dissimilar. It's both just mindless carnage. As far as enslaving and killing innocent civilians, raping women and slaughtering children are concerned, Iskander plays in a wholly different league. He and his army of "heroes" razed whole continents.

But that's not the point. When somebody cheers Ryuunosuke on, you can usually find traces of irony in the language. But the positive echo following that image was honest. On an intuitive level, that honest enthusiasm for murder frightens me a little.

Maybe it's just because I don't buy into the whole hero glorification. Most of the "heroes" of history, and of course the servants summoned in the Holy Grail War, are nothing but bloody-minded lunatics. Just looking at Iskander's facial expression in that pic where he disembowels an assassin is enough for me to realise that the only difference between a disgusting serial killer and a heroic conqueror is the body count. Unfortunately, the capacity to harm others is still a good measure for the perceived strength of a character, and admired widely.
Lol what. Are you serious?

Rider invited the Assassins to join them in peace, then they spilled their chances of survival (laughing even) and endangered the life of his Master (which is clearer in the novels).

It's a war and they are hostile, enemy soldiers.

He killed them fast, they didn't turn innocent, defenseless children who got NOTHING to do with it into furniture and musical instruments (some of them were 'breathing' and wailed when they pressed the keys). He wasn't glad about the killing itself, but to ride with his people again unto war.

I love Caster and his Master too, because they are insane, but to compare one and the other is utterly ridiculous.
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Old 2011-12-13, 13:22   Link #6353
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I don't think he was arguing on the basis of whether what Rider did was justified but rather if it's appropriate to cheer for death at all. When Osama Bin Laden was killed even then there was some concern about whether it was appropriate to celebrate someone's death.
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Old 2011-12-13, 13:30   Link #6354
Vicious108
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Originally Posted by Haak View Post
I don't think he was arguing on the basis of whether what Rider did was justified but rather if it's appropriate to cheer for death at all. When Osama Bin Laden was killed even then there was some concern about whether it was appropriate to celebrate someone's death.
I assume you're just playing the devil's advocate here, but as stated already, Rider reuniting with his greatest treasure aka his people was what was celebrated in that scene.

I don't think anyone even cares about the Assassins enough, negatively or positively, to actually celebrate their deaths. Maybe when the likes of Caster & Uryu die we'll see that, but here, not really.
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Old 2011-12-13, 14:12   Link #6355
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Dang it Avalon, you c(XD LOL)-block Shirou and Reinforce, but don't protect his mind in other ways? What is wrong, you woman?
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Last edited by bhl88; 2011-12-13 at 14:34.
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Old 2011-12-13, 14:42   Link #6356
careph
 
 
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
The difference is usually in the why.
The "why" doesn't matter to those who suffered from his schemes. It doesn't matter to the men Iskander massacred after capturing several cities, nor to the rest of the population he sold into slavery. I question how honourable it is to loot Persepolis, and how charismatic one has to be to make such orders. But hey, the soldiers had to have some fun after the battle, right?

@Nayrael: I do not need to know the specifics of the soldiers who served under an influential military leader to imagine the atrocities they in all likelihood committed. Their reasons and Ryuunosuke's may even overlap.
The difference you are referring to lies largely in how the character is presented to the audience. If in a flashback Iskander himself or his men were shown to "have fun" with civilians, I bet his reception would change.
Often I find people are just too lazy to think for themselves and settle with processing what they see. But absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

@Thess: You missed my point. I do not seek to justify either Iskander's or Ryuunosuke's actions. To me, they're both at the same time amazing and disgusting.

@Haak: Almost. Originally I just verbalized a feeling of disconcert.

Enough words, time for more heroes ...

Spoiler:

Last edited by careph; 2011-12-13 at 15:58.
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Old 2011-12-13, 15:56   Link #6357
Ithekro
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Is that from Carnival Phantasm?

Spoiler for Why is a hero a hero and not just a murderer?:



As for Rider and his men's cheering. They are not cheering the death of Assassin. They are cheering for Victory like you would in a sports match. They cheer because they won, not because of the slaughter or blood. Even in modern war, an army will cheer when it wins...but not because of the bodies on the battlefield. For those...they would mourn afterwards (both the friends and enemies...because they are all human).
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Last edited by Ithekro; 2011-12-13 at 17:13.
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Old 2011-12-13, 17:47   Link #6358
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post


Is that from Carnival Phantasm?
Probably... Saber is chomping like hell like in the Ilya's Castle Game
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Old 2011-12-13, 18:54   Link #6359
Linkark07
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Who is the girl that is hugging Illya?
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Old 2011-12-13, 18:59   Link #6360
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Who is the girl that is hugging Illya?
Archerko (the female Archer based on "what if Shirou had (and kept) Ilya's body and then became Archer".
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