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Old 2014-10-25, 22:37   Link #1
relentlessflame
 
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New Fate/stay night UBW sub-forum approach

As a result of continued difficulty maintaining the spoiler policy in episode threads, and as part of an experiment on potential new discussion structures on the forum, the discussion for the Unlimited Blade Works TV anime has been divided into two sub-sections:

I think the titles basically speak to the nature of the reorganization. If you already know all about the franchise and want spoilers, go to the Spoiler section. If you are an anime-only viewer and don't want spoilers, go to the Spoiler-Free section. I realize there are about many, many different combinations of "seen this, read this, haven't seen that yet"... but trying to create every single combination is nearly impossible for a franchise this elaborate and large. So basically we ask that you pick your path, and take the risk accordingly.

Please don't double-post between the two sections, or double-vote on episode polls.

We're a bit sad that this means fracturing the AnimeSuki discussion community for these topics, but we want to see if this approach yields better discussion and a less frustrating posting experience for all.


The other thing that's different about this is that, for the first time in many years, we are trying to allow freer thread creation in these sub-forums. This means that most veteran forum members will be allowed to create threads as they wish in either of these sub-sections.

Obviously the understanding is that you will place threads in the appropriate section based on whether you do or don't want spoilers. There are also rules about thread creation, and they are explained in each sub-forum; please read these rules, as you could have your thread creation privileges revoked otherwise. One such rule is: don't create threads that the staff normally create, like episode discussion threads, overall review threads and so on. And also, even in the spoiler section, make sure your thread title does not contain any spoilers. But otherwise, we want to try opening the floor to more diverse thread creation and see what results.

We did create "Thread Request/Advice" threads in each sub-forum so that people can share thread ideas with each other and with the staff to get advice before creating threads. This is sort of like the advice thread we have in our signature contests. So if you're not sure if your thread idea is good or not, feel free to use those threads to discuss it with others first to help make the best threads possible. You can also use those threads to request threads that the staff need to create, like episode threads, etc.


Like I said, this is a sort of experiment that we are doing on a different discussion approach. We realize there will probably be some problems and downsides, and it will be uncomfortable to some people, like any change. Please also understand that this approach is also new to us on the staff, so it may take some time for us to settle on the best way to handle problems that may arise. To be honest, some of us on the staff aren't too sure if this will go well or horribly... but we appreciate your patience and understanding.

All in all, we'd like to ask for people to first try it out for a while, and then to give constructive suggestions about ways we can improve. We don't know yet whether this approach will be brought anywhere else on the site, but we'll see how it goes here, and we'll listen to your feedback in terms of what you liked and didn't like in terms of considering any future experiments or wider policy changes.


Feel free to post here if you have any questions or concerns.
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Old 2014-10-26, 08:44   Link #2
monster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
You are welcome to participate in this thread if:

a) you watched the Fate/Zero anime, AND
b) you have NOT played the F/SN game or spoiled yourself on any game/franchise details

If you are a game-player, novel reader, or if you've read all the game spoilers, this is not the thread for you.
What about anime-only viewers of previous adaptations in addition to Fate/Zero?

Also, are we restricted to choosing one type of discussion or can we choose both as long as the respective rules are followed?

Last edited by monster; 2014-10-26 at 08:54.
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Old 2014-10-26, 11:49   Link #3
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this was a good move, and definitely not something that needs to be done often. This is an irregular case where the source material of the anime is well known and most viewers by now would known of the plot already and its really hard to say anything in the threads without it being construed as spoilers. (why do I get a feeling a small reason for the split threads is cuz I complained a bit too much in the threads after getting my "spoilers" deleted? xD)
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Old 2014-10-26, 11:54   Link #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monster View Post
What about anime-only viewers of previous adaptations in addition to Fate/Zero?
So, there's no perfect solution for this yet, but for now (as you saw) I created a thread for Fate/Zero viewers in the "Spoiler-Free" section as a type of exception. Maybe that should also include the last anime (I actually was originally going to do that), but then you could have people who watched one but not the other. You could require one to be behind tags, but that causes its own problems...

I guess for now my question is just how many people there are in that group, and we can think of a solution for those members. Like I said in the OP, the amount of possible combinations are too high, and I just don't know yet which threads are worth creating.

I actually just created a thread to poll the spoiler-free community and figure out what they've seen, so maybe that will help better figure out who is in that community and what they want.


Quote:
Originally Posted by monster View Post
Also, are we restricted to choosing one type of discussion or can we choose both as long as the respective rules are followed?
Well, the one thing I'll say is that we don't want "covert ops" or "bad actors". Meaning, we don't want people who are spoiled to pretend they're not and participate in spoiler-free threads leaving hints or answering questions. So if you're actively reading the spoiler threads but then participating in the spoiler-free discussion, all those spoilers are going to influence your thinking. People who are like "I never played the game, but I've read all the spoiler threads and spoilers online" should probably go to the spoiler threads. Plus sometimes spoiled viewers feel like they need to do anime-only viewers a "favour" by explaining things to them or correcting misunderstandings, and we don't want that either.

So... while I'm not going to say 100% that people can never participate in both sides, we would be very harsh against someone who drops any sort of spoilers/hints in the spoiler-free thread. So it may not be worth it.


Edit:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Polarpew View Post
(why do I get a feeling a small reason for the split threads is cuz I complained a bit too much in the threads after getting my "spoilers" deleted? xD)
Honestly, it wasn't due to people breaking the rules and complaining. The rules were clear and people should have followed them or not posted. A bunch of people did get banned for breaking the spoiler rules, and we stand by that. But, we also recognize that the Fate franchise in particular is so full of "spoiled" viewers that this may be the only way to allow vibrant discussion to occur that doesn't involve constantly stepping on broken glass for both groups. But anyway, we'll see how this goes...
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Old 2014-10-26, 12:28   Link #5
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This split made me realize just how terrified AO viewers have become of the Fate subforum Gotta find a way to attract them here, but how?
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Old 2014-10-27, 07:27   Link #6
Hmm....
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I'm not sure if divide up sub forum is a good move but I would say it's a necessary move.

Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
I guess for now my question is just how many people there are in that group
I would say significant amount as in majority of anime fan before 2012. My guess would be there are more people in this group than those who read original VN. However divide sub forum up into three group would be too much.


For all purpose and intend, I suggest that

UNSPOILED SECTION
Only new UBW anime could be discussed freely
Only Fate Zero in proper tag&label should be allowed
No other anime adaptation and VN content allowed

SPOILED SECTION
Any anime adaptation could be discussed freely
Original VN content should be in proper tag&label


If we ever reverse back to thread basis, I would suggest that each thread has three level of spoiler. UFOtable viewer(F/Z & new UBW only), anime viewer(every adaptation included), VN reader.
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Old 2014-10-28, 03:12   Link #7
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I'm not happy about this at all, but I dare to say I do not have a better idea.
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Old 2014-10-28, 13:00   Link #8
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I think it's a good idea, honestly. Looking at the relative number of posts in each section, it seems pretty obvious that the spoilers-allowed stuff is far more popular, so restricting the main discussion threads to spoiler-free status is silly. At the same time, though, there does need to be a place where people who don't know the story already can talk without spoilers.

I do think a place for people who know some stuff but not everything (i.e. somewhere where spoilers are allowed but only under spoiler-tags) might be useful, but other than that I think this current situation is the best they can manage.
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Old 2014-10-29, 19:33   Link #9
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@relentlessflame: Can the forum software be customized enough to apply a kind of flag to users and forums that would prevent them from seeing certain threads or posts?

For example, let's say there's two flags used, a "New" flag and a "Spoiler" flag.

A login's "New" flag for a forum can be willingly toggled on/off.
A login's "Spoiler" flag for a forum can be willingly toggled on/off unless it was placed there by a moderator. It is automatically toggled on in a forum if you post anything using spoiler tags.

People with the "New" flag on for a specific forum cannot see spoiler threads or posts by people with the "Spoiler" tag, replacing spoiler posts with a "This message is hidden because it contains spoilers." message like how the ignore list works.

People with the "Spoiler" flag on for a specific forum cannot post in a thread that's flagged "New".
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Old 2014-10-29, 19:55   Link #10
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Originally Posted by Rava View Post
@relentlessflame: Can the forum software be customized enough to apply a kind of flag to users and forums that would prevent them from seeing certain threads or posts?
Sorry, the forum doesn't allow that and customizing it in would be overwhelmingly hard. And besides that, it would be extremely confusing in practice because conversations would not flow logically. What we saw in the past (when we allowed tagged spoilers in threads) is that you'd end up going to a thread and see pages upon pages of nothing but hidden/tagged posts, and it isn't a good discussion experience. That is assuming that people are actually disciplined enough to tag their posts in the first place, which is also a problem (and it only takes one untagged post to ruin the flow). You could try to do some sort of threaded approach, but that has been generally poorly implemented in vBulletin.

So yeah... there really isn't a good way to deal with this problem in this sort of framework. I actually can imagine a software approach to discussion that would allow that sort of thing, but it wouldn't make sense to build it on top of vBulletin. Even to build it from scratch would be a major multi-month project. For now I think we have to keep living within what this forum will let us do.
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Old 2014-10-30, 05:30   Link #11
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
Sorry, the forum doesn't allow that and customizing it in would be overwhelmingly hard. And besides that, it would be extremely confusing in practice because conversations would not flow logically. What we saw in the past (when we allowed tagged spoilers in threads) is that you'd end up going to a thread and see pages upon pages of nothing but hidden/tagged posts, and it isn't a good discussion experience. That is assuming that people are actually disciplined enough to tag their posts in the first place, which is also a problem (and it only takes one untagged post to ruin the flow). You could try to do some sort of threaded approach, but that has been generally poorly implemented in vBulletin.

So yeah... there really isn't a good way to deal with this problem in this sort of framework. I actually can imagine a software approach to discussion that would allow that sort of thing, but it wouldn't make sense to build it on top of vBulletin. Even to build it from scratch would be a major multi-month project. For now I think we have to keep living within what this forum will let us do.
why cant we have a rule that when we discuss on a certain episode thread, we are only ALLOWED to say what happened on that season? (no future episode spoilers)

lets say in UBW, we are only allowed to discuss whats already happened in UBW but no FSN/ FZero stuff, other stuff should just go to their respective general thread.

I dont like the spoiler tag rule in episode thread, spoiler tags shouldnt even exist in those threads since it provides to risky discussion and like what u said flooding the entire page with tags.
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Old 2014-10-30, 09:51   Link #12
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Originally Posted by Justice Knight View Post
why cant we have a rule that when we discuss on a certain episode thread, we are only ALLOWED to say what happened on that season? (no future episode spoilers)

lets say in UBW, we are only allowed to discuss whats already happened in UBW but no FSN/ FZero stuff, other stuff should just go to their respective general thread.

I dont like the spoiler tag rule in episode thread, spoiler tags shouldnt even exist in those threads since it provides to risky discussion and like what u said flooding the entire page with tags.
Because many people want the ability to discuss the episode including the spoilers. Just about everyone watching this already knows something about the universe, but exactly what they know varies.

Hence the current approach. They have a spoiler-free discussion thread and a spoiler discussion thread. If you don't want spoilers, you go to the first. I don't see why that is a problem.
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Old 2014-10-30, 17:14   Link #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justice Knight View Post
why cant we have a rule that when we discuss on a certain episode thread, we are only ALLOWED to say what happened on that season? (no future episode spoilers)

lets say in UBW, we are only allowed to discuss whats already happened in UBW but no FSN/ FZero stuff, other stuff should just go to their respective general thread.

I dont like the spoiler tag rule in episode thread, spoiler tags shouldnt even exist in those threads since it provides to risky discussion and like what u said flooding the entire page with tags.
Because there are way too many people who know the upcoming plot, and they even make majority of posters in the "episode X" treads.
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Old 2014-10-30, 23:38   Link #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justice Knight View Post
why cant we have a rule that when we discuss on a certain episode thread, we are only ALLOWED to say what happened on that season? (no future episode spoilers)

lets say in UBW, we are only allowed to discuss whats already happened in UBW but no FSN/ FZero stuff, other stuff should just go to their respective general thread.

I dont like the spoiler tag rule in episode thread, spoiler tags shouldnt even exist in those threads since it provides to risky discussion and like what u said flooding the entire page with tags.
If you prefer this approach, that is what we've currently proposed for the Spoiler-Free Section.

Actually, as it stands right now, spoiler tags aren't necessary in either section because the spoiler section allows all, and the spoiler-free section allows none.

In this particular franchise's case, there are just so many past and related adaptations even if you're just talking anime alone (never mind the game). It's a bit unusual in that regard compared to other franchises, where we usually don't have this sort of issue (or at least not in quite the same way).
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Old 2014-11-03, 14:17   Link #15
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
The other thing that's different about this is that, for the first time in many years, we are trying to allow freer thread creation in these sub-forums. This means that most veteran forum members will be allowed to create threads as they wish in either of these sub-sections.


i guess what happen in the Shuffle! sub-forum must had fade or none of current active mods were active back then.
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Old 2014-11-03, 17:34   Link #16
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i guess what happen in the Shuffle! sub-forum must had fade or none of current active mods were active back then.
Don't worry; the staff remember it very well. Suffice it to say, shipping threads and fanclubs would get shut down quickly.
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Old 2014-12-13, 23:39   Link #17
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This was a good try, but I don't think this sub forum thing worked for this particular anime or in general at all I guess. There's on average 2 posts per thread on the newcomer sub-forum while the vast majority is on the veteran's forum. Not to mention there's barely any traffic going on there as well. We're seeing a lot of people who just dont want to make the effort to click on a sub forum, then decide which they want to post on. It went down from ~160 posts per episode thread to less than 30, or 2 on the newcomer.

Perhaps when season 2 comes along, abolish this system and try it for another anime instead? Clearly isn't working and bad for business (less posts = less people coming to this site for chatting)
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Old 2014-12-14, 01:07   Link #18
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This was a good try, but I don't think this sub forum thing worked for this particular anime or in general at all I guess. There's on average 2 posts per thread on the newcomer sub-forum while the vast majority is on the veteran's forum. Not to mention there's barely any traffic going on there as well. We're seeing a lot of people who just dont want to make the effort to click on a sub forum, then decide which they want to post on. It went down from ~160 posts per episode thread to less than 30, or 2 on the newcomer.

Perhaps when season 2 comes along, abolish this system and try it for another anime instead? Clearly isn't working and bad for business (less posts = less people coming to this site for chatting)
I don't think we can necessarily draw all those conclusions yet from this data. It isn't so uncommon for discussion of a franchise to quiet down after the initial hype wears off, and it gets into a weekly routine. It isn't necessarily guaranteed that the discussion wouldn't have died out anyway regardless of what approach was taken. And also, this particular franchise is a bit of a unique case with the fact that so many people know the game and have already played it (plus it's kinda sorta a remake in a way), so indeed there doesn't seem to be that many anime-only viewers for whatever reason (even in the survey we did, almost all the participants had watched some or all of the previous related anime). I don't think the issue is that people are too lazy to click on the subforum, as that hasn't ever been a problem in other cases where we created sub-forums.

But anyway, I do think we probably won't keep the same approach for the second half, though I'm not sure yet what we will try at that time.
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Old 2014-12-14, 05:52   Link #19
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There's also that thing where I see newcomer posts in the veteran forum with lots of regularity.
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Old 2014-12-14, 18:09   Link #20
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There's also that thing where I see newcomer posts in the veteran forum with lots of regularity.
Well, it's true that there are simply some anime-only viewers who don't care about spoilers. So if people go by choice to a discussion thread where spoilers are allowed... I don't expect to receive complaints about being spoiled, anyway.

In this current environment, people may not feel like they want to participate in the spoiler-free section because it's "dead". Of course, the fact they're not participating in it is helping keep it dead. And also, whenever someone does post in there, it doesn't help that certain source-reading jerks seem to always show up to post spoilers anyway, even though it clearly says spoiler-free right in the title. It's like some people have a psychotic compulsion to not let people discover things on their own; "oh no, an anime-only viewer made a speculative comment that isn't totally accurate if they had played the game; must let them know they're wrong so they don't get the wrong idea!!!" -_-;
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