AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Current Series > Gundam

Notices

View Poll Results: So what should take place?
Keep advancing the Gundams, don't scale-back at all... 42 20.90%
For the love of God scale-back these unstoppable, unrealistic suits... 86 42.79%
Just keep it more or less the same...no drastic changes eitherway... 36 17.91%
wingdarkness, does this really even matter dude? 37 18.41%
Voters: 201. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2006-01-20, 17:58   Link #1
wingdarkness
Retweet Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: ニュー・オーリンズ、LA
[GSD] How can a 3rd series possibly scale-back the over-powered Gundams?

Well I'm back from my most recent 7 day ban (yes my 5th or 6th misunderstood ban ) and this subject was on my mind...Since I couldn't read suki, I actually tried to read seedforums while I was gone and I have to admit "our" Gundam forum totally kills those guys...I mean like 80% of that forum loves GSD and you'll get kicked if you talk about it too bad...During the Final Plus discussion only animesuki members Deckon Blues and buckjackles actually made the thread worth reading...So I'm glad to be back cause despite all the arguing and pettyness our site rocks in comparison...

Anyways...Just thinking to myself and been wanting to make this a thread as oppose to a random comment...With the premise of a 3rd series I was just wondering what can be done to scale-back the Gundams (If indeed this is something that will be done)?? I just can't see anything being created to deal with the current "unstoppableness" of our Gundam team that consists of the uber hidden skilled I-J...The Sega-saturn Game-Shark cheat code called ".//hackatsuki", and the Gundam x God kitbashed S-F...

Given the type of battles we've seen in the final eps of GSD...Will they progress the fighting even more than this?? Is it even possible?? Does the next suit have Moon-light butterflies shooting out of funnel-shields using D.O.M.E. microwave charges to boot?? I know I'm gleaming the sarcastic cube here, but I really don't know how you can advance the fighting beyond what we have seen...and without somehow scaling back these Gundams I fear the realistic action (or even slightly beyond that) that many of us have come to love about Gundam (even in SEED) while be lost...

But a secondary effect can be will scaling back the Gundams even be acceptable at this point?? Have they already walked too far down the length of this plank?? I mean would you even accept seeing a nominal fight at this point??

So basically what can be done and what should be done to somehow handicap these Gundams to make the fighting more believable and//or acceptable??
__________________
Fly since ...
wingdarkness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-01-20, 18:08   Link #2
WhereAmI
Ecchi Otaku
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Inside your head, I'm a figment of your imagination
The only thing I am looking for, in terms of "scaling-back" is to have them be evenly matched and/or overpowered by non-Gundam MS. Whether it be a 100 grunt piloted Zakus or 10 well know pilots in custom MSs, just bring me back to the good old MSG days, where even though I knew the Gundam would win, it would at least take a beating, and/or need help from others.
WhereAmI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-01-20, 18:21   Link #3
Nightengale
~Night of Gales~
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
An easy method is to pull a Zeta, by making 85% of all grunt suits more significantly powerful than the good guy's Gundam for more than 35+ episodes.

Then, by the time the good guys get their upgrades, the only enemy they'll be fighting is the boss-class enemies. The grunts that are already weak are left for the minor characters to duke it out.
Nightengale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-01-20, 18:48   Link #4
Anh_Minh
I disagree with you all.
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
If all else fails, make neutron jammer canceller canceller.
Anh_Minh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-01-20, 18:53   Link #5
Commander 598
Zeonic
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Age: 26
Send a message via AIM to Commander 598
Lets see...

We need a suit that is simple(Only a few weapons), and is technologically advanced enough to beat the SF...

Send in the V2!
Commander 598 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-01-20, 19:00   Link #6
Mr_Paper
Hmm...
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Looking for his book...
Although the series has probably taken it too far at this point to ever go back, it would go a long way if instead of depicting the Gundams as godly and untouchable mobile suits (200% more powerful than grunt MS) they depicted the next gerenation as mobile suits that are only marginally better than their mass-produced equivilants (110% more powerful than grunt MS).
Mr_Paper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-01-20, 19:00   Link #7
wingdarkness
Retweet Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: ニュー・オーリンズ、LA
Quote:
Originally Posted by Commander 598
Lets see...

We need a suit that is simple(Only a few weapons), and is technologically advanced enough to beat the SF...

Send in the V2!

As awesome as the V2 is, I doubt it could keep up with the unlimited capabilities and armaments of these mechs especially S-F and .//hackatsuki...IJ just hasn't shown me enuff of it's capabilities...I guess Athrun's the only one yet to press the red-button...Neo has pressed every button twice, thrice even...
__________________
Fly since ...
wingdarkness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-01-20, 19:05   Link #8
Slayerx
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
It's not so much the gundams that need downplaying, but the gundam pilots

What we really need to do is....

First we need to vastly increase the abilites of all grunt pilots... y'know, grunts should be able to know how to block, evade, aim, and all that basic stuff we never see in GSD... like the grunts of MSG, they should be able to put up a decent fight (especially when the pilot has twice the experience then the gundam pilot)

However, increasing the grunts power may have a bit of a backlash from fans... fore if they see kira and SF having trouble dealing with like 10 adverage grunts they gonna just scream "plot device!", and "Kira get nerfed"... for they will not understand that it was not Kira who got less powerful, but the grunts that were given a decent fighting ability

To prevent such backlash, we do one crucial thing... get rid of or horrible down play the old cast... they should start off with a fresh pilots, pilots of whome we don't already know the skills of... then When that pilot has trouble with those same 10 adverage grunt suits, no one will scream "plot device"... in their ignorance to see that the grunts have average level abilties, as apposed to n00b skills, they will just assume that the new pilot isn't as godly as Kira...

So ya, technically, no one gets downplayed... its just the grunts that get stronger...
Slayerx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-01-20, 19:07   Link #9
demon_god04
~Hi -mi- tsu des~
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Canada
Age: 29
Those damned god suits need to be scaled back theres no question about it... but I honestly cant really think of a way to do it -.-

With how the characters are portrayed I dont really see how even a 3rd series is possible without it being driven by fanboyism. The SF, IJ and ".//hackatsuki" are already portrayed as gods amoung the lesser MS and can make them explode by just being in the same key frame, how does one go about nerfing it without saying "sorry but yea we royally messed up with GSD so forget the ms battles in there"
__________________
demon_god04 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-01-20, 19:32   Link #10
wingdarkness
Retweet Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: ニュー・オーリンズ、LA
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slayerx
It's not so much the gundams that need downplaying, but the gundam pilots

What we really need to do is....

First we need to vastly increase the abilites of all grunt pilots... y'know, grunts should be able to know how to block, evade, aim, and all that basic stuff we never see in GSD... like the grunts of MSG, they should be able to put up a decent fight (especially when the pilot has twice the experience then the gundam pilot)

However, increasing the grunts power may have a bit of a backlash from fans... fore if they see kira and SF having trouble dealing with like 10 adverage grunts they gonna just scream "plot device!", and "Kira get nerfed"... for they will not understand that it was not Kira who got less powerful, but the grunts that were given a decent fighting ability

To prevent such backlash, we do one crucial thing... get rid of or horrible down play the old cast... they should start off with a fresh pilots, pilots of whome we don't already know the skills of... then When that pilot has trouble with those same 10 adverage grunt suits, no one will scream "plot device"... in their ignorance to see that the grunts have average level abilties, as apposed to n00b skills, they will just assume that the new pilot isn't as godly as Kira...

So ya, technically, no one gets downplayed... its just the grunts that get stronger...

I disagree...Grunts getting stronger is meaningless if they're mechs pale in comparison...Unless every grunt is Athrun in a GOUF I don't think it's possible for any grunt to beat one of the "Big 3 suits" + the Dom's and their Kai-o-Ken techniques...I think the Zaft grunts are OK it's just their counterparts are just uber-better...S-F is capable of taking out like 25 reds in less than 2 minutes, if the grunts were 2 times better what would it take 4 mins??

I agree that perhaps grunts could be better...It would be great if every grunt was on the level of Baba, but without the mechs to combat the "Big 3" doesn't matter how much more skill you have...You gotta dodge golden funnels, beam-bouncing, NEWTYPE'd DRAGOONS, WoL, Combo-Cannons, grappling-hooks, beam slicers, Belly-blasters, and 1 of the pilots is the son of Mary...

Drastic downgrades must be accomplished...I wish we could just stay on IMPULSE level mechs... where fighting like ABYSS vs. IMPULSE were some of the best in the series...But once again they may have already extended their necks so far...It's really sad how they've left no room for scaling it back...but I want them to do it anyways...
__________________
Fly since ...
wingdarkness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-01-20, 19:34   Link #11
Rever129
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
They really need to do is make the grunts actually matter in combat. Showing grunts being something other than target practice for main characters will go a long way to help balance things out. Really, would it be such a shock if Kira got something more serious than a scracth in battle or if a Windam actually dodged a spam attack and then counter attack?; What's the point of having complete blow outs?; What's so wrong with having a battle that's compelling and unpredictable?

Quote:
However, increasing the grunts power may have a bit of a backlash from fans... fore if they see kira and SF having trouble dealing with like 10 adverage grunts they gonna just scream "plot device!", and "Kira get nerfed"... for they will not understand that it was not Kira who got less powerful, but the grunts that were given a decent fighting ability
Sadly, I think you're correct on this. These uber blowouts became so common in Destiny, that anything else would seem like a "plot-device". It might be too little, too late to try to even things out now.
Rever129 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-01-20, 20:28   Link #12
DarkWarrior
Anaheim Electronics
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
I think it's already set in stone that grunts in the CE universe do nothing more than serve as target practice.. suddenly increasing the grunts skill would be awkward and really weird. >_>
DarkWarrior is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-01-20, 21:54   Link #13
shaolo
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
I am surprize that no one see this before but one of the reasons why there is a gap between the grunts ms and the main characters ms( except for the Impluse and Akatsuki) is the powerplant. While the MSes with nuclear fission reactor or greater have more speed, power, and mobility, the MSes with lesser than a nuclear fission reactor have less more, speed and mobility.

Anyway, IMO scale-back the most powerful MSes from Destiny may not be a good idea. For one thing, Strike Freedom, Infinite Justice, Akatsuki, and Destiny have less combat time and have the pilots make full use of their mobile suits. Two, this may be a excuse some fan to say the ;for example, Kira was at his best at Destiny than the 3rd series where his mobile suits was scale-back.

The logical and more balance answer is to balance out the grunt MSes and the main characters MSes. Two idea I came up for weaponry is that phase shift armor protect mobile suits from physical attack and conventional weaponry but not beam weaponry. So why not combine the two together. Machine gun bullets with beam tip shell. Second, use sound as a weapon.
shaolo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-01-20, 21:58   Link #14
Commander 598
Zeonic
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Age: 26
Send a message via AIM to Commander 598
Quote:
Originally Posted by wingdarkness
As awesome as the V2 is, I doubt it could keep up with the unlimited capabilities and armaments of these mechs especially S-F and .//hackatsuki...IJ just hasn't shown me enuff of it's capabilities...I guess Athrun's the only one yet to press the red-button...Neo has pressed every button twice, thrice even...
Their unlimited capabilities and armaments wouldn't be able to keep up with it. Litterally.

The V2 was the fastest mobile suit ever created. It was also the smallest(Or one of) Gundams. Doesn't matter what your shooting with if your target is too fast to be targeted.

Even the SF doesn't have(Or has never been portrayed with...) the speed to match something as advanced as the V2.
Commander 598 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-01-20, 22:14   Link #15
sanghyun1990
상현
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Age: 24
Good stragey will be need for the 3rd series, GS and GSD had stupid stragey. No matter how powerful a ms it will not be able to beat a good stragey, but since this is C.E we are talking about stragey don't matter. Beacuse this is what Mwu said number doesn't matter. Also they could just make grunt suit advance as the Gundam.
sanghyun1990 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-01-20, 22:55   Link #16
omegastar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Want a quick solution? dig the Turn-A out of its cocoon

Want a standard solution? Dunno, there could be some rather lame ways:

- A treaty that dismantled most of the MS technology and reverted it back to basic MS?

- Creation of some kind of beam jammer that powers down other MS?

- Plotdevice the series so that SF-IJ-D-L-A-Etc were too costly and were hastily created in times of neccessity?

- Somehow dispose of the blueprints of the high-powered gundams and the eliminate the MS themselves?

- Bring back the neutron stampeder and put SF-IJ-D-L together?

There are many ways, tho almost all of them are pretty lame
omegastar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-01-20, 23:20   Link #17
Nightengale
~Night of Gales~
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Seriously, if you want it to be balanced and believable while maintaining the same standards for grunts and heroes, there's really only one choice.

Keep the grunts to the grunts, and keep the heroes to the heroes.

It's that simple.

The Gundam/High-spec MS piloting pilots have the priveledge of fighting merely among themselves.

Eg. Kira will not kill more than 10 grunts in the whole 50 episodes. He'll instead be facing the boss class enemies ONLY for most parts. (( 98% of the time. ))

And the grunties to the grunties.

No more than 10 good/bad grunts will get killed by the heroes/bosses. The grunts will be too busy fighting their level of opponents, the aces will be busy fighting their own.
Nightengale is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-01-20, 23:21   Link #18
SlugZilla
woofles
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Age: 29
Give every MS a beam shield and I would like to see Kira take out an army in one blast again. In the 3rd series make beam shield standard to every MS, and create new powerful weapons than can go thru beam shields but limit it to only 1 or 2 per MS. And add more advanced close combat weapons than beam sabers.
SlugZilla is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-01-20, 23:35   Link #19
Vallen Chaos Valiant
Logician and Romantic
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 34
Well, I don't see why we can't have all the MS (including Grunts) in CE 3 to be nuclear powered... It was always like that in UC anyway. To talk about "operating time" is too much like the traditional "limited transformation" or "Ultraman Time Limit", a stupid means to make a battle artificially short and make sure named characters survive. An example would be when the original three druggies in GS always had to retreat half-way through the fight because they are at their maximum limits. I HATE that.

If a battle is fought either to the death, or ended due to some other legit reason, like how one side has somewhere to go in a hurry, it's more exciting than just "We have ten minutes before dinner time! Make it snappy!".

So, in conclusion, give everyone nuclear-power MS already! And shove the bloody treaties where the sun don't shine! Give mirage colloid to both heroes and villains!

Imagine the tactical capabilities both sides would then possess! To appear and disappear, playing Cat-and-Mouse... You can't beam-spam what you can't see!

I don't want battles to be limited to the number of guns each side has, but use strategic positions, flanking, magnetic space-mines, extreme-long range artillery shelling at guessed enemy locations, usage of planetary gravity defensively, decoy hollow battleships with fake heat signatures...

...am I asking too much?
(Can you tell I am a fan of "Legend of Galactic Heroes"? )

...Anyway, Strategy! That's the ticket!
__________________
Vallen Chaos Valiant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-01-20, 23:40   Link #20
pinsher6
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
i enjoy the changing in the anime,so never back again...
pinsher6 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:00.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.