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View Poll Results: So what should take place?
Keep advancing the Gundams, don't scale-back at all... 42 20.90%
For the love of God scale-back these unstoppable, unrealistic suits... 86 42.79%
Just keep it more or less the same...no drastic changes eitherway... 36 17.91%
wingdarkness, does this really even matter dude? 37 18.41%
Voters: 201. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2006-01-21, 00:13   Link #21
shaolo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant
Well, I don't see why we can't have all the MS (including Grunts) in CE 3 to be nuclear powered... It was always like that in UC anyway. To talk about "operating time" is too much like the traditional "limited transformation" or "Ultraman Time Limit", a stupid means to make a battle artificially short and make sure named characters survive. An example would be when the original three druggies in GS always had to retreat half-way through the fight because they are at their maximum limits. I HATE that.

If a battle is fought either to the death, or ended due to some other legit reason, like how one side has somewhere to go in a hurry, it's more exciting than just "We have ten minutes before dinner time! Make it snappy!".

So, in conclusion, give everyone nuclear-power MS already! And shove the bloody treaties where the sun don't shine! Give mirage colloid to both heroes and villains!

Imagine the tactical capabilities both sides would then possess! To appear and disappear, playing Cat-and-Mouse... You can't beam-spam what you can't see!

I don't want battles to be limited to the number of guns each side has, but use strategic positions, flanking, magnetic space-mines, extreme-long range artillery shelling at guessed enemy locations, usage of planetary gravity defensively, decoy hollow battleships with fake heat signatures...

...am I asking too much?
(Can you tell I am a fan of "Legend of Galactic Heroes"? )

...Anyway, Strategy! That's the ticket!

That were the Machine gun or sniper rifle bullets with beam tip shell comes in.

And need more used of the mirage colloid.
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Old 2006-01-21, 00:38   Link #22
fizzmaister
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omegastar
Want a quick solution? dig the Turn-A out of its cocoon

Want a standard solution? Dunno, there could be some rather lame ways:

- A treaty that dismantled most of the MS technology and reverted it back to basic MS?

- Creation of some kind of beam jammer that powers down other MS?

- Plotdevice the series so that SF-IJ-D-L-A-Etc were too costly and were hastily created in times of neccessity?

- Somehow dispose of the blueprints of the high-powered gundams and the eliminate the MS themselves?

- Bring back the neutron stampeder and put SF-IJ-D-L together?

There are many ways, tho almost all of them are pretty lame

actually I had an Idea but I only re-registered just now.

have a Neutron canceller/stampeder. It changes the strong nuclear force in this universe (actually just the area in range) from a state where it's impossible to reach fission, to a state where fission reactions spontaneously occur, and back again. This would also work against fusion cores since it would do the reverse of what happened to fusion
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Old 2006-01-21, 00:38   Link #23
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant
Well, I don't see why we can't have all the MS (including Grunts) in CE 3 to be nuclear powered... It was always like that in UC anyway. To talk about "operating time" is too much like the traditional "limited transformation" or "Ultraman Time Limit", a stupid means to make a battle artificially short and make sure named characters survive. An example would be when the original three druggies in GS always had to retreat half-way through the fight because they are at their maximum limits. I HATE that.

If a battle is fought either to the death, or ended due to some other legit reason, like how one side has somewhere to go in a hurry, it's more exciting than just "We have ten minutes before dinner time! Make it snappy!".

So, in conclusion, give everyone nuclear-power MS already! And shove the bloody treaties where the sun don't shine! Give mirage colloid to both heroes and villains!

Imagine the tactical capabilities both sides would then possess! To appear and disappear, playing Cat-and-Mouse... You can't beam-spam what you can't see!

I don't want battles to be limited to the number of guns each side has, but use strategic positions, flanking, magnetic space-mines, extreme-long range artillery shelling at guessed enemy locations, usage of planetary gravity defensively, decoy hollow battleships with fake heat signatures...

...am I asking too much?
(Can you tell I am a fan of "Legend of Galactic Heroes"? )

...Anyway, Strategy! That's the ticket!
Agreed wholeheartedly.
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Old 2006-01-21, 00:44   Link #24
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These gundams do need to be scaled back. For the most part there isn't really a need for the mass produced suits to be changed. They just need to stop being so lazy and just making suits explode. Actually take the time to plan out battles and make grunts on both sides actually look like they are trained military personal. That right there could solved a lot of problems for this situation I feel.

Shows like Wing I feel can actually get away with a lot of grunt suits exploding since they were more like walking tanks if anything. Hell even the Gundams in that didn't move around a lot unless they were actually in space. That's really something no one ever mentions when they talk about Wing and grunts. It's very rare you see the Gundams moving around anywhere near the level of gundams in the SEED series. Not sure if that is due to animation or simply because they wanted it like that. There was certainly a LOT of movement in G Gundam and that came first before Wing.

Storywise, short of actually reducing everything to a dark age or jumping ahead 100 years don't see how things can be scaled back. They just simply went through way to much technology in to short of a time. The advancement made no damn sense. Lets be honest with it. Much of what was take from other shows came from the UC in terms of technology. That's about a 100 years worth of technology from MSG to V Gundam we have as in universie source material to use.They blew through that in as little as 5 in-universie years between SEED and SEED Destiny.

Here's the big catch though I feel. Most of the advancement was placed on the Gundams only for the most part where as in the UC that technology was spread around between Gundams, and mass produce suits that actually were on the level of Gundams after a while. It's really only in MSG to 0083 I believe where the Gundam is above mass produce suits. The gap between a gundam and a mass produce suit wasn't that high in Zeta. Not sure about ZZ since I've never seen it. Gap didn't look huge in CCA, nor in F91 or Victory (where the gundam was actually mass produced). Seem the ignored that part of the UC when they took things from it I guess.

I think we can pretty much ignore continuity to fix the problem. If anything needs to be flashbacked to, just redo the scene to make it fit with current fighting. They are just going to have to scale back things and ignore the problems it causes I think. I can't honestly see any other way of doing it since an in story reasoning would just get really messy.
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Old 2006-01-21, 02:04   Link #25
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@Effect - I agree with nearly everything you just said...I also agree that they should do it with minimal explanations...Don't come-up with some contrived nonsense, just scale them back...I just think you have to...I mean how can every battle (In a new series) be more ridiculous than the final fights from GSD?? It would have to be to stay on the current course of progression, which IMO is toggling madness...

@Commander 598 - The V2 is pretty powerful (I'm on ep 45 of Victory), but I have yet to see anything from it that would suggest that the uber-God-powered Strike-Freedom wouldn't be able to beat it...All V2 has is WoL and a high-powered beam cannon...Now Usso's creative fighting style and part switching would give him a chance (Since Kira has proven to be vulnerable to anyone who fights outside the norm [DESTROY, IMPULSE, PROVIDENCE jr.]), but I don't see it beating S-F and it would only stalemate ".//hackatsuki"...
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Old 2006-01-21, 04:14   Link #26
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Logically, no advancement needs to be in the form of massive boost in terms of the magnitude of force and destruction it is able to inflict. True, the progress of technology in the C.E is inhumanly fast, but that level of progress only applied to the asthetical value of the weaponry. None of it, was an upgrade of innovation. If the next series could balance asthetics and innovation on the same level, it could very well make sense in the level of improvement while not needing to scale back the over-poweredness of the Gundams.

What I want to see in C.E is the development of MS technology that causes a setback on the pilots. A system that pushes the level of piloting to the limits, at the same time killing the human body. I once wrote a fic where a MS that possesed the reflexes, movability and reactionary system on par with humans were created. It goes beyond merely OS that possesed kung-fu fighting skills or anything, but because of it's major sensitivity, it causes serious tissue and mental damage to the pilot. Technically, it's not much of an upgrade in terms of weaponry, but it leaves room for an innovative pace rather than just bigger guns and flashy shields.

Honestly, Gundam could really benefit a lot from Le Cirque de Karakuri. That manga, where living marionettes are enemies showed a level of innovation in strategy and believable weaponry. I can really imagine it, an innovative bulky-large MS, releasing tubes that releases white flames, instantly melting any regular MS.
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Old 2006-01-21, 04:40   Link #27
monster
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Originally Posted by Nightengale
What I want to see in C.E is the development of MS technology that causes a setback on the pilots. A system that pushes the level of piloting to the limits, at the same time killing the human body. I once wrote a fic where a MS that possesed the reflexes, movability and reactionary system on par with humans were created. It goes beyond merely OS that possesed kung-fu fighting skills or anything, but because of it's major sensitivity, it causes serious tissue and mental damage to the pilot. Technically, it's not much of an upgrade in terms of weaponry, but it leaves room for an innovative pace rather than just bigger guns and flashy shields.
Aren't the Zero and Epyon Systems already kind of like that? Only difference is they affect the mind. Then again, these type of system would be an interesting addition in the CE universe. I've always wanted to see a fight between Kira and the Zero System or something along the line of what you're suggesting.
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Old 2006-01-21, 05:07   Link #28
Blaat
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Why not mass produce .//hackatsuki, Strike Freedom and Infinite Justice? Mind you the pilots still need to be scaled down a bit.
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Old 2006-01-21, 05:45   Link #29
wingdarkness
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Originally Posted by monstert
Aren't the Zero and Epyon Systems already kind of like that? Only difference is they affect the mind. Then again, these type of system would be an interesting addition in the CE universe. I've always wanted to see a fight between Kira and the Zero System or something along the line of what you're suggesting.

And that's what I'm afraid off...C.E. has ripped so much from other series, the next logical rip will be psyco-frame technology...I can see it already, the next series people can control the Gundams refllexes with their minds and psychic thought waves...

We've had the cyber-NEWTYPE rips in the form of Extendeds, we now have controlling DRAGOONs thru Newtype powers...Nu Gundam and Hyaku Shiki in the form of ".//hackatsuki" with everything you could ever imagine being put on one Gundam...WOL, IMPULSE (core-spledor based mecha like Victory)...Hell we even have outta-body Newtype dreams without Newtypes...

Psyco-frames and G Gundam cockpits are the only thing next if we don't scale-back some of this...As lame as it sounds perhaps Cagali and Lacus implementing more violations via treaties will be the only way to downgrade this progression...Don't be surprised AT ALL if psychic abilities are a focal point of the next series (which will make me have to go to the bathroom to realive myself I'm sure)...
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Old 2006-01-21, 06:46   Link #30
monster
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On the matter of CE ripping off from other series, I just don't think that necessarily has to be a bad thing. After all, wasn't this universe supposed to introduce younger generation to the world of gundam? At least that's what I heard anyway. But,
Quote:
Originally Posted by wingdarkness
I can see it already, the next series people can control the Gundams refllexes with their minds and psychic thought waves...
I really hope this doesn't happen, it would take the focus away from all these natural-coordinator stuff that's been happening. Newtype should only concern UC and AW.
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Old 2006-01-21, 08:38   Link #31
Sety
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In all honesty I don't see how they CAN scale back technology, since everything in the C.E. universe advanced so quickly, the only thing that could turn back technology is a apocalypse Turn-A style to wipe out everything or some contrived 'resource' shortage because of the repeated battles.

Last edited by Sety; 2006-01-21 at 08:54.
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Old 2006-01-21, 09:58   Link #32
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I'm saying if there is a third series it should be in the past. That way you won't have to deal with these issues. Who else wants to see young and hot Siegel Clyne and Patrick Zala? Come on....

Everyone knows how things end up with Kira around, so is there even a point to another series? There is no way Fukuda is going to make him uncool enough to have a grunt cause him any trouble. A treaty saying they can't make the Gundams doesn't work either, since Lacus got around that one once... I see her doing it again. So it doesn't MATTER how powerful the grunt is. It won't be enough. I say it's less of a problem with the Gundam itself and more of a problem with how the story will be told.

Though to me the only thing that makes the suits so insanely powerful are the shields/defense. They don't even feel the need to dodge anymore.
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Old 2006-01-21, 12:11   Link #33
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Originally Posted by wingdarkness
@Commander 598 - The V2 is pretty powerful (I'm on ep 45 of Victory), but I have yet to see anything from it that would suggest that the uber-God-powered Strike-Freedom wouldn't be able to beat it...All V2 has is WoL and a high-powered beam cannon...Now Usso's creative fighting style and part switching would give him a chance (Since Kira has proven to be vulnerable to anyone who fights outside the norm [DESTROY, IMPULSE, PROVIDENCE jr.]), but I don't see it beating S-F and it would only stalemate ".//hackatsuki"...
You don't understand. A Gundam styled after the V2(20Gs of Acceleration!) or the F91(VSBR and Afterimage!) would possess superior speed, maneauverability, and a simple weapons configuration compared to current CE era machines. They would be smaller and lighter, both of which dictate that it should automatically be faster. Current CE era Gundams are almost 19m in height and weigh roughly 80 tons.

If Kira's Super OS and the SF's systems can't track* the targets, he's screwed.


*By track, I mean that the OS wouldn't be able to predict where a target is going to be and if he can't get a good firing solution, his plans, tactics, and policies are null and void.
And don't say just reprogram it. I can't just reprogram my P4 2.4Ghz processor to work like a 3Ghz HT processor. The SF doesn't have the technology to target/disable/kill these smaller and faster units automatically. He's actually going to have to try and do it the old-fashioned, close-in, manual way.
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Old 2006-01-21, 13:01   Link #34
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^No I do understand...despite the information your giving you must simply watch the mechs in action...Ofcourse I understand the V2 is extremely fast and extremely mobile and light-weight, but are you forgetting all the lesser type suits like Tyres and other non-specialized Mobile Suits that gave Usso problems during the series...replace a Motorad suit with STRIKE-FREEDOM and you'll see my point...If Usso was having trouble with those suits, given the visual evidence from both Victory and GSD it's almost arrogant to think S-F (a.k.a. "Stock-Footage") wouldn't be able to successfully challenge and possibly beat VICTORY-2 (which i think it could given the aramaments, speed, and pilot's God-like capability)...Kira had no problem tracking DESTINY's psuedo after-images provided by Mirage Colloid, I doubt V2's would render him helpless...

As for ".//hackatsuki" it wouldn't be able to beat that cheat-code Gundam...perhaps Akatsuki wouldn't be able to beat V2, but V2 would struggle getting a decisive blow against that thing that makes Nu Gundam look like the prototype suit...

That's why I'm saying we need to scale-back these Gundams because the visual evidence of their skills is so compelling it's hard to dismiss them vs. any other suit...NEWTYPEness aside (based on the action provided in both series), you can't convince me that STRIKE-FREEDOM couldn't beat VICTORY...I probably won't waiver on this in the slightest...
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Old 2006-01-21, 13:18   Link #35
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Or they could simply advance time A LOT further into the CE universe where there was a Turn-A Gundam event where all the super-advanced and spamtastic weaponry was destroyed by some big phenomenon and they had to start all over again.

I think that could be some excuse to down-grade MS and everything, don't you think??? lol
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Old 2006-01-21, 13:56   Link #36
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but are you forgetting all the lesser type suits like Tyres and other non-specialized Mobile Suits that gave Usso problems during the series.
Your forgetting, that these were also highly advanced, not to mention that Usso isn't/wasn't exactly the most experienced and well trained pilot when he first engaged them. Just like how a Zaku II kept Amuro on his toes at the beginning of MSG, and by the end he was taking out Gelgoogs with his eyes closed, with the same unit he started with.

Besides, scaled down units is the one thing that CE hasn't done yet...

Quote:
.Kira had no problem tracking DESTINY's psuedo after-images provided by Mirage Colloid, I doubt V2's would render him helpless...
Destiny's level of advancement is quite debatable. As is all other current CE era units... However, i'm quite certain, that they aren't approaching the 20Gs of the V2 Gundam. Hell, the plain starting Victory only had 4.50Gs of acceleration...

For reference:
RX-78-2 - 0.93 G
MS-06F - 0.59 G
MS-06S - 0.69 G
MSZ-006(Zeta) - 1.81 G
MSN-00100(Hyaku Shiki) - 1.37 G
RX-93 - 1.55 G
MSN-04 - 1.87 G
F91 - 4.44 G
ZM-S06S(Zoloat) - 4.00 G
ZM-S22G(Imperial Rig Shokew) - 4.20 G
LM312V04(V) - 4.50 G
LM314V21(V2) - 20 G

So where would you assume the CE era is now...?
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Old 2006-01-21, 17:13   Link #37
4Tran
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant
I don't want battles to be limited to the number of guns each side has, but use strategic positions, flanking, magnetic space-mines, extreme-long range artillery shelling at guessed enemy locations, usage of planetary gravity defensively, decoy hollow battleships with fake heat signatures...
Let's see, how many anime shows have had real strategy in them... three? Maybe four? I'm afraid that if you want to see more of this kind of stuff, you'll have to switch to another medium. For a kids' show like Gundam, this would definitely be a major break from the norm. I'd love to see it too, but it's not going to happen.

The later UC mobile suits, V2 in particular, vastly outperform anything seen in the Cosmic Era. After all, it's one of the few Gundams that should be capable of reaching escape velocity on its own. If V2 was used to its utmost capabilities, it should be able to defeat just about any Gundam mobile suit rather easily. If it seemed to have trouble against other units, it speaks more to their strength than its own weakness. There's also the question of Usso perhaps not being able to use V2 to its fullest.

Still, I don't put much stock in V2's listed specifications, because they contradict each other and the show itself. It's rather ridiculous for a mobile suit to so badly outperform everything else in its universe (nearly 450%!!). Besides, we never saw V2 move at 20G or even close to that. Of course, the alternative is that the 20G figure is only theoretical, or only possible for very short periods of time. In any case, it wouldn't be impossible (or even all that hard) to hit it if you're using relativistic weapons.

As to the actual OP: I wish that they would tone down the mobile suits in Cosmic Era. Of course, I feel the exact same way about Mobile Suit Gundam or any other Gundam show for that matter.
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Old 2006-01-21, 17:52   Link #38
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I agree with more powerful grunts.

I want the trio to become more powerful (OMG i said that), but the grunts still being closer to their level. The JetStream Doms in CE was a nice little touch (too bad it ended up on their side; wouldve been more intersting if SF+IJ were fighting them). Have them make grunts like Gelgoog or Kampfer, or maybe even Serpents (in EW). These MSes have given the Gundams some trouble.
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Old 2006-01-21, 18:08   Link #39
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I don't care how, just scale them back! >.>
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Old 2006-01-21, 18:11   Link #40
wingdarkness
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Originally Posted by Commander 598
Your forgetting, that these were also highly advanced, not to mention that Usso isn't/wasn't exactly the most experienced and well trained pilot when he first engaged them. Just like how a Zaku II kept Amuro on his toes at the beginning of MSG, and by the end he was taking out Gelgoogs with his eyes closed, with the same unit he started with.

Besides, scaled down units is the one thing that CE hasn't done yet...

So where would you assume the CE era is now...?
The C.E. is beyond whatever you can imagine, hence I made this topic...Trust me I hear where you are coming from, but until you can combat this statement:

Quote:
Replace a Motorad suit with STRIKE-FREEDOM and you'll see my point...
Replace S-F with any of the mechs Usso struggles with (with maybe the exception of Angel Halo or even the Zanneck) and V2 is basically done...I wish it wasn't true...

You think a ZOLO, TYRES, or a SHOKEW (based on visual evidence) are better than S-F?? Trust me I hate the fact I have to even make this point...That's why I want these Gundams to be scaled-back...But based on what we've seen(theoretics aside) V2 would never easily defeat S-F, in all honesty it would have as hard a time with ".//hackatsuki" IMO... Why? Because these suits have been shown in a fashion that suggests beating them is almost beyond impossible...V2 was not shown in such a manner, V2 was nearly destroyed many times by less than steller suits (atleast suits that pale in comparison to S-F's stock usage)...For you or 4tran to think a TYRES is more advanced than S-F is a monumental stretch...Which is sad, but the C.E. has made this true...

I have only 5 eps of VICTORY left and unless there is gonna be a ridiculous jump in skill in these last few eps to suggest that V2 is vastly superior or can outperform all the Gundams in C.E. (most notably S-F) is mind-boggling to say the least (once again based on visual evidence)...

Finally at 4tran..I find your "Kid's show" comment very sweeping and condesending....Gundam is and has always been the first mecha genre to escape the "kid show" robot motif (Obviously gripes lie in GSD for enabling this concept)...I find your whole post somewhat over-arrogant and that's coming from me...You should watch more anime, seriously...either that or your just too brilliant to be duped by basic strategy (also tactical strategy) that many animes (Including a few GUNDAM series) supply...I could give you a list, but would it do any good? Oh BTW, don't mind me...but could you possibly answer the threads question?

@Shinji - You said scale them back, yet you voted keep them the same ...
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