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View Poll Results: So what should take place?
Keep advancing the Gundams, don't scale-back at all... 42 20.90%
For the love of God scale-back these unstoppable, unrealistic suits... 86 42.79%
Just keep it more or less the same...no drastic changes eitherway... 36 17.91%
wingdarkness, does this really even matter dude? 37 18.41%
Voters: 201. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2006-01-21, 18:59   Link #41
4Tran
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wingdarkness, I'm sorry if you're offended, but Gundam TV shows have always had kids in mind as their target audience. Besides, so what? Why do you mind it in the first place? If you like a kids' show, then you might as well admit it. My third-favorite anime has pre-teens as their primary audience, but that doesn't keep me from liking it any less. While Mobile Suit Gundam is the first show to escape the super-robot motive, it still does not deviate all that much from its roots.

Military strategy is something that I'm always on the lookout for, but I rarely come it across it in any medium save for books. I have the suspicion that you're referring to a list of shows that feature tactics, not strategy. But on the off-chance that I'm wrong, I'm definitely very interested in seeing your list. As far as I've seen, Crest/Banner of the Stars isn't too bad and Twelve Kingdoms shows some decent strategy, but that's about it. Of the other shows out there, Vallen Chaos Vincent already mentioned Legend of Galactic Heros, and I would imagine that Zipang! and Romance of the Three Kingdoms would also show some strategy, but I can't think of anything beyond that. The thing is, anime is just an awful medium for showing this kind of thing. I don't think any more highly about most depictions of military strategy in anime than I do about it in Hollywood.

I already answered the question in your poll, but I don't think that it's the Gundams themselves that are the problem. I think that the problem lies in the depiction of the pilots themselves being overpowered. If you want to balance things out, then just have the technology stagnate for a bit, and equip all the line units with the latest goodies. However, this is going to count for squat as long as the ace pilots can still slaughter them without missing a beat.

By the way, I find that your comments a little uncalled for. I would say that you might want to take a look at strategy by reading some history books.
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Old 2006-01-21, 19:39   Link #42
Commander 598
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wingdarkness
The C.E. is beyond whatever you can imagine, hence I made this topic...Trust me I hear where you are coming from, but until you can combat this statement:


Replace S-F with any of the mechs Usso struggles with (with maybe the exception of Angel Halo or even the Zanneck) and V2 is basically done...I wish it wasn't true...

You think a ZOLO, TYRES, or a SHOKEW (based on visual evidence) are better than S-F??
Usso's struggles are the direct result of his inexperience, his enemies' experience and training, and vice versa. There are also numerous other factors involved such as terrain, weather, environment, etc. He had trouble with a team of Zolos early on and a Zolo is alot like a conventional attack helicoper(Aside from the beam rifle...). Does that mean an AH-64 Apache > The Victory Gundam? Of course not.

I don't believe SF(Or any CE unit) isn't really any better(Engine Performance) than anything available in UC 0100.

I just had another idea! The Minovsky Particle! Lets see you target something outside of five kilometers now. You'll be lucky if you can even get a radio transmission out...
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Old 2006-01-21, 19:47   Link #43
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The Neutron Jammers in CE are the equivolant to the UC Minovsky Particle.

They block radio waves disabling communications and making traditional radar/sonar targeting impossible.
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Old 2006-01-21, 20:09   Link #44
servitude
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If you want an easy way out without scaling back on the GOD theme, then go for melee much like Destiny. Destiny was a great MS... NO doubt despite the people who hate it which by the way hate it because of Shinn, its still IMO, more powerful in raw power than either IJ or SF.

But making melee more relevant scales the impact of meteor blasting everything to bits scenario.

Making grunt MS faster sort of the older MA / MS combi might make the fights more balanced.

THose grunt suits might be weaker, but they're many times faster in MA and can zoom in transform and zap with their sabers or coils, whips, dragoons or whhatever....

For GODS sake burn SF and give Kira one with less guns.. Although I would prefer not to see Kira anymore.. Because there's nothing to talk about him.. We had 102 episodes of his lame ness I don't want to kill I want to save the world... Yet I don't kill Yet I save the world lameness.. Move on.. Move on....

Alternatively, scrap dragoons and for gods sake the Akatsuki.. IMO, AKatsuki may well defeat SF or IJ if it wants.. It goes, you shoot me I deflect it back to you. You try and saber me, I use my dragoons and form a shield...

And then I go for the kill... Dumb absolutely dumb.. Even Amuro's funnel shields weren't invincible.

Or make a more balanced number of MS.. That is, don't be so one sided and have the earth onl using one dimensional Windams and the ZAFT using one dimensional Zakus or Goufs.

Let there be different versions. 1 with tons of weaponry that matches SF in terms of shots fired..... But doesn't have the armour or power. BUt defended by some really powerful melee grunt suit with a powerful energy shield...

So at least it makes it more approachable...


By the way, for those that want more power, be prepared to see doubel the recycled scences.

Why? They couldn't cope with Seed Destiny's tempo as it is, what makes you think they'll be able to cope with a setup that requires more power and action.
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Old 2006-01-21, 20:45   Link #45
wingdarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran
wingdarkness, I'm sorry if you're offended, but Gundam TV shows have always had kids in mind as their target audience. Besides, so what? Why do you mind it in the first place? If you like a kids' show, then you might as well admit it. My third-favorite anime has pre-teens as their primary audience, but that doesn't keep me from liking it any less. While Mobile Suit Gundam is the first show to escape the super-robot motive, it still does not deviate all that much from its roots.

Military strategy is something that I'm always on the lookout for, but I rarely come it across it in any medium save for books. I have the suspicion that you're referring to a list of shows that feature tactics, not strategy. But on the off-chance that I'm wrong, I'm definitely very interested in seeing your list. As far as I've seen, Crest/Banner of the Stars isn't too bad and Twelve Kingdoms shows some decent strategy, but that's about it. Of the other shows out there, Vallen Chaos Vincent already mentioned Legend of Galactic Heros, and I would imagine that Zipang! and Romance of the Three Kingdoms would also show some strategy, but I can't think of anything beyond that. The thing is, anime is just an awful medium for showing this kind of thing. I don't think any more highly about most depictions of military strategy in anime than I do about it in Hollywood.

I already answered the question in your poll, but I don't think that it's the Gundams themselves that are the problem. I think that the problem lies in the depiction of the pilots themselves being overpowered. If you want to balance things out, then just have the technology stagnate for a bit, and equip all the line units with the latest goodies. However, this is going to count for squat as long as the ace pilots can still slaughter them without missing a beat.

By the way, I find that your comments a little uncalled for. I would say that you might want to take a look at strategy by reading some history books.
I'm offended (if offended means mildly agitated) by many things you say because you lack passion...You treat Gundam as if it's some failed science experiment your proding with a stick...I don't even know why you watch it other than to get into colorful arguments with me and neodrag...I mean I don't know what could possibly impress you about this genre, but if tactical strategies found in many Gundam series (also many other anime series) is beneath you I'm at a loss...They certainley aren't beneath me and I consider you an intellectual equal...but maybe your wiser than me...

I mean what is competent expressed strategy to you?? Is it Greeks hiding in the Trojan Horse?? Is it Usso or Shinn disconnecting Mobile suit pieces?? Is it Kammile figuring out how to fight 2 opponents on an asteroid when he thought it was one?? Is it Alexander the Great out-flaking his opponents in Reign the conquerer??Is it the "Laughing-man" meticulously fooling section 9 (GITSSAC)?? Is it Char sending a dummy fleet to londo bell as he infiltrates his forces to destroy Earth?? Perhaps it's the non-existent Lacus chess-game you love (Now that's strategy you seem to dig)?? What is strategy to you?? No let me correct that, what is strategy that's not beneath you?? You always downplay the strategy (and tactics) in Gundam and I get tired of it...

I find minimal tactical strategy a plus..It totally beats just watching 2 Gundams fight as if they were action figures i was holding in my hands, crashing them against each other...So when I hear about something I watch (like the examples above) and find enjoyable be dismissed or downplayed as "kid-stuff", yeah i get a bit agitated...Remember anime is made by adults...sometimes these adults put adult things in without even realising kids won't pick up on it until they are older...A perfect example is watching Looney Tunes as an adult as opposed to a kid...Yeah as a kid they were funny and fun, but as an adult you can see that most of these cartoons overwhelmingly had adult-content in them not suitable for young children...Basically the "kid show" aspects you highlight, kids aren't really always picking up on it...

Anyways don't wanna create another potential rawkus, just saying how I really feel when I read some of your stuff...


Quote:
I don't believe SF(Or any CE unit) isn't really any better(Engine Performance) than anything available in UC 0100.
What does engine performance mean when your getting spammed to death while dodging a combo-cannon followed by a belly-blast...If you get close either you have to deal with the beam-deflecting, funnel-sheilding behemoth or "ARMs-agedden", literally in one suit (S-F)...You think WOL is gonna magically hit S-F and destroy it just like that with that level of attack (based on what we've seen)...That's why you gotta scale these things back...
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Old 2006-01-21, 21:51   Link #46
Commander 598
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What I meant by that was that the current units in CE are about as fast as anything at the UC 0100 mark.

Engine performance means everything in that situation. And personally, I could do without WOL period.
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Old 2006-01-21, 21:56   Link #47
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^What I'm saying is your engine performance can be great, but you're trying to win right?? Your not trying to escape from S-F and ".//hackatsuki"...You're trying to beat them...If your trying to proactively beat these suits you need more than a Ford Hemi under the hood...You need some serious combat equivalency...Which V2 doesn't have vs. those 2 suits...
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Old 2006-01-21, 22:39   Link #48
RX-93 HI-NU
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You might change your opinion once you finish victory so....hurry up and finish it!
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Old 2006-01-21, 22:42   Link #49
demon_god04
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The MS performance isent the only problem either, the pilots in the seed universe needs to log some time playing some FTS online or something. They just seem to fly into enemy fire or fly in straight lines or cant seem to hit a target moving in a straight line
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Old 2006-01-22, 01:11   Link #50
Commander 598
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[QUOTE=wingdarkness]^What I'm saying is your engine performance can be great, but you're trying to win right?? Your not trying to escape from S-F and ".//hackatsuki"...You're trying to beat them.../QUOTE]

Your trying not to get shot while beating them. Y'know, that thing where you move away from the incoming fire while continuing your attack.
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Old 2006-01-22, 01:28   Link #51
wingdarkness
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^Attack with what? What are you attacking with? WOL? High-powered Beam weapon? S-F and .hack are prepared for both with Beam-sheilds and funnel protection...Does V2 have a Nuclear reactor? Because if it don't it better have some serious miles per gallon cause you'll run out of juice before S-F does...V2 can zip around all day, but if it can't destroy S-F and .hack with it's weapons you can't win...Lohengrin beams and Genesis gamma rays can be deflected with ease, what can V2 do? I admire your devotion, but these Gundams ain't going out like that...
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Old 2006-01-22, 01:45   Link #52
Demongod86
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What can you do? Electromagnetic pulse shockwave? Disrupt electrical currents? Metal conducts electricity quite well, even if it's gundanium or phase shift. Short-circuit the gundams, strike down the legs to throw off ambac and rid them of vital thrusters...beating SF in space is pretty much an impossible task...even if you WOULD somehow deal with the dragoons, you STILL must be able to hold your own against one of THE most maneuverable MSes in ALL of the gundam franchise, which is more than capable with melee fights. SF-dragoons>original Freedom still.

So what do you do to tone them down? Simply relocate. Who needs to involve Orb? As Durandall said

"Shoot me, and the WORLD will be RIPE with chaos."

Now that the EA has gotten the crap knocked out of it, people are going to be in uproar ALL OVER THE PLACE. Any small skirmish can take place, be it between two european nations, within the atlantic federation itself, or a world war ala 1984 with Eurasia vs. East Asia vs. Atlantic Federation (Oceania). Where is Orb and PLANT in all of this? Sitting back, trying to rebuild/recollect themselves before charging in again.

That's the best idea I have. Not to make Durandall sound like a complete moron, since Durandall's words are always correct up until they are in direct contradiction with Lacus's/Kira's, and Kira ALREADY acknowledged that there will be more chaos. So...let's have at it!
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Old 2006-01-22, 02:24   Link #53
4Tran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wingdarkness
I'm offended (if offended means mildly agitated) by many things you say because you lack passion...You treat Gundam as if it's some failed science experiment your proding with a stick...I don't even know why you watch it other than to get into colorful arguments with me and neodrag...I mean I don't know what could possibly impress you about this genre, but if tactical strategies found in many Gundam series (also many other anime series) is beneath you I'm at a loss...They certainley aren't beneath me and I consider you an intellectual equal...but maybe your wiser than me...

I find minimal tactical strategy a plus..It totally beats just watching 2 Gundams fight as if they were action figures i was holding in my hands, crashing them against each other...So when I hear about something I watch (like the examples above) and find enjoyable be dismissed or downplayed as "kid-stuff", yeah i get a bit agitated...Remember anime is made by adults...sometimes these adults put adult things in without even realising kids won't pick up on it until they are older...A perfect example is watching Looney Tunes as an adult as opposed to a kid...Yeah as a kid they were funny and fun, but as an adult you can see that most of these cartoons overwhelmingly had adult-content in them not suitable for young children...Basically the "kid show" aspects you highlight, kids aren't really always picking up on it...
Well, if you're offended because I'm not all that passionate about Gundam, then you'll just have to live with it. I watch Gundam for the same reason I watch any anime - because I tend to like it. Even though I don't think it's great art, it's still something I can enjoy. I also post here because I enjoy putzing around on this forum as well. I fail to see why I should have to justify this or anything else to you.

I mean what is competent expressed strategy to you?? Is it Greeks hiding in the Trojan Horse?? No. Tactic, not strategy.
Is it Usso or Shinn disconnecting Mobile suit pieces?? Fun, but no.
Is it Kammile figuring out how to fight 2 opponents on an asteroid when he thought it was one?? No.
Is it Alexander the Great out-flaking his opponents in Reign the conquerer?? Haven't seen it, so I don't know.
Is it the "Laughing-man" meticulously fooling section 9 (GITSSAC)?? No.
Is it Char sending a dummy fleet to londo bell as he infiltrates his forces to destroy Earth?? Yes, but it's not really what I'm trying to get at. I would classify this as an operational feint.
Perhaps it's the non-existent Lacus chess-game you love (Now that's strategy you seem to dig)?? Also not really what I'm trying to get at.

What is strategy to you??
A fair enough question. Since Gundam is supposed to be about war, I want to see some military strategy. I want to see a full campaign, from the planning of the General Staff, to the logistics, to the execution at the army group, division, regiment and company levels and so on. Thrust and counterthrust as you would see in a real war. It's pretty much the idea behind the stuff that Vallen Chaos Vincent was talking about. Tactics are not strategy, sneaky tricks are not strategy, and fancy moves are not strategy. There's no such thing as "tactical strategy" as far as military parlance goes.

You always downplay the strategy (and tactics) in Gundam and I get tired of it... Do you have examples of this?

Just because a show doesn't display any execution of military strategy doesn't mean I find it beneath me (Where the heck did you get that idea from anyways?). I don't expect to find it in any fiction outside of books. Anime is especially unsuited for this kind of content. It's just that it's a real treat if I do encounter it. wingdarkness, I'm not a very discriminating viewer, so I'm sort of curious as to why you misinterpreted my comments.

Anime is basically created for two audiences: kids and otaku. Currently, Gundam shows cater to both markets, but doesn't make it any less of a kids' show. I still can't see what's wrong with this. If anything, I think that it's great that Gundam are kids' shows - this demonstrates that the Japanese are perfectly fine showing children material that can be equally enjoyed by adults. By the way, your comparison with Looney Tunes stinks - those cartoon strips were orginally shown to adult audiences as part of a motion picture feature. They were not created for children in the first place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Commander 598
I don't believe SF(Or any CE unit) isn't really any better(Engine Performance) than anything available in UC 0100.
True enough. However, I don't think that engine output is a very good indicator superior performance. What it does suggest is that the later UC does have superior technology.

I don't think of Strike Freedom or Akatsuki as particularly powerful mobile suits in comparison to the late Victory ones. Akatsuki is simply too gimmicky to be effective against a perpared opponent, so it can be immediately dismissed. Strike Freedom only has two real advantages: METEOR, which is only used in special situations, and its DRAGOONs, which are matched by many other mobile suits.
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Old 2006-01-22, 02:53   Link #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran
Well, if you're offended because I'm not all that passionate about Gundam, then you'll just have to live with it. I watch Gundam for the same reason I watch any anime - because I tend to like it. Even though I don't think it's great art, it's still something I can enjoy. I also post here because I enjoy putzing around on this forum as well. I fail to see why I should have to justify this or anything else to you.

I mean what is competent expressed strategy to you?? Is it Greeks hiding in the Trojan Horse?? No. Tactic, not strategy.
Is it Usso or Shinn disconnecting Mobile suit pieces?? Fun, but no.
Is it Kammile figuring out how to fight 2 opponents on an asteroid when he thought it was one?? No.
Is it Alexander the Great out-flaking his opponents in Reign the conquerer?? Haven't seen it, so I don't know.
Is it the "Laughing-man" meticulously fooling section 9 (GITSSAC)?? No.
Is it Char sending a dummy fleet to londo bell as he infiltrates his forces to destroy Earth?? Yes, but it's not really what I'm trying to get at. I would classify this as an operational feint.
Perhaps it's the non-existent Lacus chess-game you love (Now that's strategy you seem to dig)?? Also not really what I'm trying to get at.

What is strategy to you??
A fair enough question. Since Gundam is supposed to be about war, I want to see some military strategy. I want to see a full campaign, from the planning of the General Staff, to the logistics, to the execution at the army group, division, regiment and company levels and so on. Thrust and counterthrust as you would see in a real war. It's pretty much the idea behind the stuff that Vallen Chaos Vincent was talking about. Tactics are not strategy, sneaky tricks are not strategy, and fancy moves are not strategy. There's no such thing as "tactical strategy" as far as military parlance goes.

You always downplay the strategy (and tactics) in Gundam and I get tired of it... Do you have examples of this?

Just because a show doesn't display any execution of military strategy doesn't mean I find it beneath me (Where the heck did you get that idea from anyways?). I don't expect to find it in any fiction outside of books. Anime is especially unsuited for this kind of content. It's just that it's a real treat if I do encounter it. wingdarkness, I'm not a very discriminating viewer, so I'm sort of curious as to why you misinterpreted my comments.

Anime is basically created for two audiences: kids and otaku. Currently, Gundam shows cater to both markets, but doesn't make it any less of a kids' show. I still can't see what's wrong with this. If anything, I think that it's great that Gundam are kids' shows - this demonstrates that the Japanese are perfectly fine showing children material that can be equally enjoyed by adults. By the way, your comparison with Looney Tunes stinks - those cartoon strips were orginally shown to adult audiences as part of a motion picture feature. They were not created for children in the first place.


True enough. However, I don't think that engine output is a very good indicator superior performance. What it does suggest is that the later UC does have superior technology.
Sign, name one gundam that has a great military plan from start to finish. what operation star one? Oddissa? Gundam has, is and will always be how Individuals deals with war and NOT about military planning. If you want to see that kind of thing, watch WWII filims (acurate ones) or something or parts of Crest of the stars/banner of the stars etc. Besides, how entertaning is it if they spend half an hour watching old generals talking about things and no action? Multiply that by 10 eps or so since it takes that long to get any type of plan togather in the military, every one would be bored, from kids to adults to even gundam otakus. Just as you don't look for magic and wizards in tom clancy's books, but of strategy, you shouldn't expect or see for that matter much strategy in gundam or most anime.

As for gundam being kids show, that depends on what gundam. GS and GSD are certainly designed for kids. CCA, Zeta or Victory gundam probably wasn't. Zeta has alot of main characters dying same with Victory, both show are quite depressing and CCA, well you need to have watched 3 other gundam shows to understand what its talking about.

So take the show for what it is, it has never been a startagey anime, (most anime aren't) and it never was intend to be a startagey show, it is however a show that's suppose to show how individuals who are forced to fight, deals with the concept of war, from Amuro to Kira and every other in between none of them wanted to fight (well except shinn of course but his already gone over the edge and its debatable if his the main character of GSD).

As for the engine output thing, the only thing that really matters in MS battles are how good the pilot is/are as demonstrated by the likes of Amuro and some others. So long as the suite isn't ancient (as in 100 some year old) and it can move, with an affective weapon, everthing else depends on who is piloting it. The reason CE grunts screwed is simply becasue they suck *** as pilots, standing there as if they were talking with their gf at home or something.
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Old 2006-01-22, 03:12   Link #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wingdarkness
^Attack with what? What are you attacking with? WOL? High-powered Beam weapon? S-F and .hack are prepared for both with Beam-sheilds and funnel protection...Does V2 have a Nuclear reactor? Because if it don't it better have some serious miles per gallon cause you'll run out of juice before S-F does...V2 can zip around all day, but if it can't destroy S-F and .hack with it's weapons you can't win...Lohengrin beams and Genesis gamma rays can be deflected with ease, what can V2 do? I admire your devotion, but these Gundams ain't going out like that...
What can V2 do? You do realize that the WoL are capable to swat away S-F's DRAGOONs, right? Those things are not just decoration. And without DRAGOONs, S-F would only have 2 rifles and a beam cannon for range combats. These are things that V2 can handle with its own beam shield and high speed. V2 also has enough fire power with its Assault-Buster mode. And yes, it has a fusion reactor, so I dont think time would be much of a factor in battle.
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Old 2006-01-22, 05:46   Link #56
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I'd like to see S-F try to take on V2 Assault-Buster. It has almost as many guns as S-F does, (admittedly it doesn't fire them all at the same time) has anti-beam armour, and an i-field around it. That's in addition to the standard 2 beam shields that the V2 is armed with. It's armed with extremely high-powered beam weaponry, as well as 2 VSBRs.

Let's not forget Wings of Light - the proper ones, not the Destiny-esque ones. The V2 can use them like beam sabers, and I doubt Kira will see that coming. And use it to shield itself in case Kira decides to try spamming all its beam weaponry at it. Almost all of S-F's weaponry is beam based, right at home with the V2, built in an environment where beam weaponry has been prevalent for almost a hundred years. Even though the V2 Assault-Buster isn't as fast as the V2 itself, I imagine it would still have enough speed to at least match the S-F.
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Old 2006-01-22, 08:05   Link #57
Sety
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You know though the V2 isn't THAT powerful....G-Generation tries to make it pretty clear at least which does regular cross series fights (G-Gundams near always win for the record).....thing with V2 it was powerful but not invincible but as mentioned before S-Freedom was literally depicted as invincible which makes it impossible to compare....you'd literally need a new story writer and director to make it vulnerable.

Frost Brothers vs Usso
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Old 2006-01-22, 11:15   Link #58
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Personally, trying to seriously compare different units from different universes and presenting it in a 2vs1 fight in SD format was a bad idea.
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Old 2006-01-22, 14:53   Link #59
Demongod86
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Btw, WD and 4tran, what about Looney Toons is so adult oriented? The last time I checked, it was always a coyote chasing after the road runner and having all of his traps backfire, or elmer fudd getting smooched by bugs bunny who said "what's up doc?"...unless you're talking about the ww2 propaganda looney toons...

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Old 2006-01-22, 14:55   Link #60
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The biggest problem in GSD is not othe god-scale gundam, but rather, a character shielding. In every fight, the loser's MS is scaled way down. SF, akatsuki and IJ are sure god-scale gundam but Destiny and Legend are also suppose to be one. However, in the final episode, Destiny and Legend are potrayed much weaker than SF and IJ.
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