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View Poll Results: So what should take place?
Keep advancing the Gundams, don't scale-back at all... 42 20.90%
For the love of God scale-back these unstoppable, unrealistic suits... 86 42.79%
Just keep it more or less the same...no drastic changes eitherway... 36 17.91%
wingdarkness, does this really even matter dude? 37 18.41%
Voters: 201. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2006-01-22, 15:48   Link #61
neodrag38
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Originally Posted by Demongod86
Btw, WD and 4tran, what about Looney Toons is so adult oriented? The last time I checked, it was always a coyote chasing after the road runner and having all of his traps backfire, or elmer fudd getting smooched by bugs bunny who said "what's up doc?"...unless you're talking about the ww2 propaganda looney toons...

"TAXES...TO BOMB THE AXIS!"
Well, when it comes to the US, cigarettes and the usage of firearms are considered "adult." It's pretty hard to find any US animation where actual guns to fire bullets are used and man does it annoy me how anyone really sees the need to edit cigarettes, i.e. Sanji from One Piece having his cigs replaced with lollipops in the evil, bastard 4kids version of the show. Also that all the firearms in the 4kids version are all turned either into corkguns, waterguns, etc. bunch of stuff that couldn't hurt a fly.

So it remains that plenty what would be considered kiddy in Japan would have elements that would be considered adult by those in the US. In short, the FCC truly needs all of its members to finally die off already so that we don't have a society's medium messed around with by hypocritical old men with the maturity of 5 year olds.

Anyway, I think I'll just stop ranting now...
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Old 2006-01-22, 15:56   Link #62
Demongod86
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Originally Posted by neodrag38
Well, when it comes to the US, cigarettes and the usage of firearms are considered "adult." It's pretty hard to find any US animation where actual guns to fire bullets are used and man does it annoy me how anyone really sees the need to edit cigarettes, i.e. Sanji from One Piece having his cigs replaced with lollipops in the evil, bastard 4kids version of the show. Also that all the firearms in the 4kids version are all turned either into corkguns, waterguns, etc. bunch of stuff that couldn't hurt a fly.

So it remains that plenty what would be considered kiddy in Japan would have elements that would be considered adult by those in the US. In short, the FCC truly needs all of its members to finally die off already so that we don't have a society's medium messed around with by hypocritical old men with the maturity of 5 year olds.

Anyway, I think I'll just stop ranting now...
I fully agree with this statement. This is why I hate watching dubbed anime.
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Old 2006-01-22, 16:33   Link #63
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To get slightly off topic. The whole Sanji thing with lollipops isn't really a bad edit. When you consider how off the wall the characters in One Piece are, it actually fits. That's just me though. There are several edits in other shows where the edits are actually a good idea I feel but that isn't always the case. Carry on.
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Old 2006-01-22, 17:03   Link #64
neodrag38
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True, except that by simply degrading the show to having only waterguns and lollipops along with cutting out an entire arc of storyline along with pasting together 2 or 3 eps into one censortized mass of one ep more than once it simply adds to making the show just plain silly rather than even coming close to what was conveyed in the original version. It's like the things that makes the characters who they are were simply just trashed leaving nothing but a pile of excess that I would applaud seeing any arrogant, lying, greedy, and cowardly company, that rapes something from another culture, to choke on.

But anway, since this is off topic, I'll get off it.

Oh yeah, I voted that there should be a scale-back for Gundams for obvious reasons.
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Old 2006-01-23, 01:06   Link #65
fizzmaister
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Originally Posted by wingdarkness
And that's what I'm afraid off...C.E. has ripped so much from other series, the next logical rip will be psyco-frame technology...I can see it already, the next series people can control the Gundams refllexes with their minds and psychic thought waves...

We've had the cyber-NEWTYPE rips in the form of Extendeds, we now have controlling DRAGOONs thru Newtype powers...Nu Gundam and Hyaku Shiki in the form of ".//hackatsuki" with everything you could ever imagine being put on one Gundam...WOL, IMPULSE (core-spledor based mecha like Victory)...Hell we even have outta-body Newtype dreams without Newtypes...

Psyco-frames and G Gundam cockpits are the only thing next if we don't scale-back some of this...As lame as it sounds perhaps Cagali and Lacus implementing more violations via treaties will be the only way to downgrade this progression...Don't be surprised AT ALL if psychic abilities are a focal point of the next series (which will make me have to go to the bathroom to realive myself I'm sure)...
ooh
SEED is Coordinator vs. Natural
Destiny is Freedom vs. Peace (don't give me destiny crap it freedom vs. peace regarless of the names of the suits
series 3 is newtype vs. zeroesque systems
series 4 they discover Turn A gundam lol
series 5 Kira is wished back into a childs body by Raul (granted by shenlong (Dragonball dragon) in the form of shenlong (wing gundam)) and he goes on a journey of self-discovery and realizes that he can shoot energy out of his hands and he can fuse himself and his gundam with Asuran and his gundam respectively.
series 6 Shinn is back and his new gundam gets weapons by putting cards into a slot, while Ki-ran's gundam gets upgrades by putting chips in.
series 7 the Seed cast dies they visit God, he's angry that Kira was called god by so many people and banishes them to hell. They eventually meet Satan and kill him (don't ask me how)
series 8 the cast tries to get into heavan again. they burst in through the pearly gates and kill everyone there including God (again don't ask me how) (look at my choice of series #s for the past 2)
series 9 recap episodes. literally they try to recap series 1-8 and spend all 50 episodes recaping because they need to put some recap recap episodes.
series 10 Ki-ran singlehandedly defeats every other character in their best gundams like they were grunt suits in the first episode. UC and AU gundam fans unite, build thier own gundam and destroy <insert name of where Gundam is made> and kill Fukuda and his wife (obviously) UC fans rejoice that there is now hope that a new UC gundam will be made. AU fans rejoice because a good AU gundam will be made

for series seven and eight, maybe they're sent to soul society.
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Old 2006-01-23, 01:11   Link #66
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^

The Gundam Franchise will either be revolutionised by the less-demanding marks, or will suffer a Dark Ages in the hands of the smarks.
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Old 2006-01-23, 12:49   Link #67
wingdarkness
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Originally Posted by 4Tran
Well, if you're offended because I'm not all that passionate about Gundam, then you'll just have to live with it. I watch Gundam for the same reason I watch any anime - because I tend to like it. Even though I don't think it's great art, it's still something I can enjoy. I also post here because I enjoy putzing around on this forum as well. I fail to see why I should have to justify this or anything else to you.
You don't owe me much, simply a difference in opinions...when you post on a thread and say things and express points, just be prepared for counter-points...Once you hear those counter-points than justify them with comebacks you deem...which you do all the time...as I...

Besides you being one of a few members who really motivate me to post back with content, you get me agitated just enuff to gain my ire at times...Mostly when you seem to downplay or make comments about Gundam that seem sweeping and totally lack passion...As you've probably guessed I really like Gundam and when someone says things about it I don't agree with I do my thing...Despite it all I really enjoy reading your comebacks (This one for sure), I had a smile on my face the whole time...The fact that you answered each of my questions seriously despite them being more or less rhetorical in nature was a nice touch...

Quote:
What is strategy to you??
A fair enough question. Since Gundam is supposed to be about war, I want to see some military strategy. I want to see a full campaign, from the planning of the General Staff, to the logistics, to the execution at the army group, division, regiment and company levels and so on. Thrust and counterthrust as you would see in a real war. It's pretty much the idea behind the stuff that Vallen Chaos Vincent was talking about. Tactics are not strategy, sneaky tricks are not strategy, and fancy moves are not strategy. There's no such thing as "tactical strategy" as far as military parlance goes.
Ah...I hate to go the definition route, but lets try it out...

strat&#183;e&#183;gy (strt-j)
n. pl. strat&#183;e&#183;gies
1.
a. The science and art of using all the forces of a nation to execute approved plans as effectively as possible during peace or war.
b. The science and art of military command as applied to the overall planning and conduct of large-scale combat operations.
2. A plan of action resulting from strategy or intended to accomplish a specific goal.


Now from the crux of your post you seem to want definition b...Definitions 1a and definition#2 are both things Gundam pretty much covers...Now the depth of how it displays it may be in question to you, but it's existence shouldn't be...Gundam tends to show the aspects of 1a in macro-format...You seem to want it in micro-format, which would break the flow of an action-adventure such as gundam (although it does challenge the mind with realism at times)...

Usso breaking apart Victory when he plans to at a precise time is definition#2 (So is using the Trojan Horse-- A plan of action resulting from strategy or intended to accomplish a specific goal.)...


Now we both know "tactics" are manuvers used to secure objectives set by strategy...So they work hand in hand and at many times within an instant of one-another...[made-up scenerio] Usso's plan is to approach Angel Halo by killing as few enemies as possible thru an alternative route (The strategy)...Usso must dissconnect Victory and use it's parts as the situation deems to accomplish this (The tactic)...The situation doesn't go anywhere near the script so he must now circumvent his plans in an instant (The tactical strategy)...White-ark deals with Usso's problems and changes it's intial plans for entering Angel Halo (The encompossing strategy)...Strategy isn't limited to the mental chessgame or full logistical campaigns you want to surface...

The Greeks need a way into Troy so a soldier comes up with the idea of using a false-horse as a offering...The strategy is to get beyond the walls and wait for nightfall and attack the unsuspecting Trojans with their army unorganized and unprepared...The tactic is using the false offering as a means to accomplish this...

Now the only question is if this level of strategem and tactical strategy is impressive to you...To me it's watching it take place and not knowing how it will turn out which gets me excited (especially if it's done good)...Is it beyond me, well when you don't know the outcome it really isn't...Strategy changes in an instant sometimes based on the circumstances and are minimilized in the actions of a Gundam pilot having to change them on the fly...That's strategy within the assigned strategy by the higher-ups (who I imagine you want more focus on)...

Just unstoppabble, unrealistic Gundams flying around using minimal tactics or strategy if any because there suits are so over-powered concearns me...Besides Shinn in ep 34 and the Girty Lue vs. the Minerva in the first arc...Tactical strategy is a joke in this series...because who needs it if you can spam and funnel your way into madness...

Quote:
You always downplay the strategy (and tactics) in Gundam and I get tired of it... Do you have examples of this?
4tran...You do this alot...enuff for me to notice and to backlash you at times because I tire of hearing it...What you are searching for is strategy at the micro-level where each level of stategem plays out in a mental game of verses warfare (Like the game "Risk" I suspect) You indeed need to read books or find another medium because most shows (Like Gundam) are going to encompass a more macro-approach where they set the table and let the events occur that moves along the strategy rather then soley focusing on the back and forth of the strategy itself...

Quote:
Just because a show doesn't display any execution of military strategy doesn't mean I find it beneath me (Where the heck did you get that idea from anyways?). I don't expect to find it in any fiction outside of books. Anime is especially unsuited for this kind of content. It's just that it's a real treat if I do encounter it. wingdarkness, I'm not a very discriminating viewer, so I'm sort of curious as to why you misinterpreted my comments.
Yes, perhaps i was being a bit belligerent, but you seem to come off quite arrogant and sweeping of the strategy and tactics in Gundam; something I really enjoy when it takes place (and it takes place alot in the UC)...something that is barely prevelant in GSD (besides this Lacus chess-game you and VCV seem to beileve has over-bearing substance)...


Quote:
Anime is basically created for two audiences: kids and otaku. Currently, Gundam shows cater to both markets, but doesn't make it any less of a kids' show. I still can't see what's wrong with this. If anything, I think that it's great that Gundam are kids' shows - this demonstrates that the Japanese are perfectly fine showing children material that can be equally enjoyed by adults. By the way, your comparison with Looney Tunes stinks - those cartoon strips were orginally shown to adult audiences as part of a motion picture feature. They were not created for children in the first place.

Man o Man...Do you seriously believe I'm going to leave myself open like that...For the most part I always understand the strenghts and weaknesses of any point I strive to make (often times addressing potential comebacks with intial examinations)...This case is no different...

So my analogy stinks huh? The fact that Looney Tunes was made for adult audiences in the first place has minimal bearings on the point at hand...Looney Tunes were routinley shown as pre-cursors to movies or episodes (Like the Long Ranger or Will Rodgers) at local theatres for kids in the 1950's and 60's...Warner Bros adapted the looney Tunes franchise for television in 1960...Now I wasn't around in 1960, but that's 40 plus years of Looney Tunes being marketed to children...Why else do i remember watching them Saturday mornings as a kid? Not Saturday at midnight...My uncle who is 45 also remembers the exact same thing and early on in my youth exposed me to how mature these kid cartoons actually were...

Characters acting like transvestites, pre-meditated killing and racial discrimination using black characters as canibals, no-counts, ignorant watermelon eating natives, and big-lipped charachtures are all prevelant in the Warner Bros cartoons of this time frame (I took a class on this actually, but I still noticed alot of this anyways; it was on "minorities portrayed in the history of US multimedia" and we had a whole chapter just on Looney Tunes)...Not to go anymore off-topic than this, my point was that the adults who created this at the time didn't always regulate it for the changing cultural events that were to come and how that exposure rubs off on children...To lessen my point I was merely saying kids don't understand alot of these things they think are just "kid-stuff" until they are adults...This tied into my point about Gundam...In-which you seemed to downplay Gundam as just some "kid-show"...You meant that in a condesending way and not in a praise-worthy aspect I'm sure...

Sure Japan is different culturally in what kids should expect, but that doesn't mean all kids get some of the subtlties until they are older...So step back, smell the fresh air and try not to easily brush aside the merits of my points, your face will undoubtably be filled with pie...

This discussion is as fulfilling as pie though ...

I await the next slice...
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Last edited by wingdarkness; 2006-01-23 at 17:37. Reason: syntax clean-up...also known as TYPOS!!! >_<
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Old 2006-01-23, 17:34   Link #68
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I can't really recall any worthwhile GSD tactics, well if you count Zaft's operation ragnorok, wchich failed thanks to the nibelrung.

ZZ rakan used the fake meteorites for surrounding the mindora,and used it to launch a suprise attack on the argama. Yazan did soemthign similiar in Z.

Haman used Axis to take otu gryps while the Aeug attacked titans forces which were trying to escape.

judau flew inside an actual astreriiod field and realesed fakes ones to throw off mashima's squad.

Glemmy used mosa agaisnt hamand fleet, which did a number on the ships, he then threw Axis at her fleet as well.
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Old 2006-01-23, 21:54   Link #69
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I say less Gundams, less character shields, more strategy.

I think I just erased Kira et al from the map.
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Old 2006-01-23, 23:19   Link #70
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I just think that with Kira and Lacus, they're not there to convey so many messages as they are to be examples of upstanding people and above all, fanservice. With Lacus Clyne, you either love her for who she is, or hate her for who she is portrayed to be. Sort of an oxymoronic statement, I know, but perhaps you literary guys will get it.

Anywho, if you hope to portray a more adult-oriented show, you can't have gundams that make god himself look like a grunt. You can't have temples devoted to the worship of the pink goddess herself, aka every single government building. You need downscaled technology, people trying to rebuild, civil strife, people dying from the stray shot, that sort of thing. Basically a show that stresses the frailty of human life, perhaps a brother of one of those grunts that Shinn just indiscriminately blasted. I mean here you have a pilot on combat leave trying to fight for his loved ones and his beliefs, and along comes a shiny shiny suit and ends his life just like that with a prepubescent 16 year old at the helm.

Perhaps he wants vengeance on that suit, or perhaps he just wants to fight for what he believes in, such as defending his nation-state from its aggressive neighbors due to the now-shattered EA being a mess of self-serving nation states just trying to rebuild. Will they have access to gundams of freedom's scale? HEYULLS NO. Perhaps it's just a windam, or some "kitbashed" (read: salvaged) MS that is very frail compared to the godly gundams, but still nothing to be laughed at.

The conflict will be of small scale, sort of like 08th MS team, while Cagalli and Lacus can be going about the big things on the Earth Sphere. Sort of like a Side Story. I mean what the heck is UC gundam without its side stories--08th MS team, 0080, F91? Just Gundam, Zeta, ZZ, CCA (a movie) and V. Not too much. Side stories flesh out a universe. They can be very short but they're very gripping if done right.
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Old 2006-01-24, 00:30   Link #71
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Basically a show that stresses the frailty of human life, perhaps a brother of one of those grunts that Shinn just indiscriminately blasted. I mean here you have a pilot on combat leave trying to fight for his loved ones and his beliefs, and along comes a shiny shiny suit and ends his life just like that with a prepubescent 16 year old at the helm.
Wasn't that the premise for Destiny...?
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Old 2006-01-24, 08:18   Link #72
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I don't believe it would be logical to suddenly weaken the mobile suits.

Rather than that, the directors should simply allow the prototypes to serve their purpose. Prototypes exist to serve as testing for future mass production. Give all the grunts Strike Freedom and Akatsuki suits and Kira won't seem that dangerous anymore.
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Old 2006-01-24, 10:16   Link #73
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Originally Posted by Lackadaisical
I don't believe it would be logical to suddenly weaken the mobile suits.

Rather than that, the directors should simply allow the prototypes to serve their purpose. Prototypes exist to serve as testing for future mass production. Give all the grunts Strike Freedom and Akatsuki suits and Kira won't seem that dangerous anymore.
And then GS3 will become 10 times the super robot show that GSD was....right.

Not forgetting that Lacus-sama would somehow make a even more powerful gundam for Kira that would make Strike Freedom seem like a joke.

S-Freedom version 2.7 MK-III, anyone?
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Old 2006-01-24, 10:54   Link #74
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Well, if they would STILL keep on producing super robot suits, they better make sure it has sense in the CE world. In other words, explained, not just because some random kid made their Gundams go boom that the heroes need another one, even more evil than the last, and just because it looks cool or just because they make Sunrise go cha-ching at all the model sales.

But knowing this is CE, where one can make the impossible possible...
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Old 2006-01-24, 11:34   Link #75
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The EA could probably make super gundams. however they only only go so far since GSD pushed the limit.
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Old 2006-01-24, 20:21   Link #76
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Does the EA even have money left to do anything?? Maybe Orb will go parading around EA nations tossing gold dubloons with Cagali's face on one-side Lacus on the other, and perhaps they can scrum-up enuff chedder to build a core-splendor...
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Old 2006-01-25, 10:57   Link #77
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I say fix the damn shields. None of the Gundams in CE has broken a shield (Yzak is the exception but that was part of the whole scene). Beam shields have been horrible...I'm sure I'm not the only one who hates watching suits shoot at each other's shields...
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Old 2006-01-25, 10:57   Link #78
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I think their money's gone down the drain after making Destroys like your average grunt/cannon fodder...
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Old 2006-01-25, 11:55   Link #79
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Who ever said that Fukuda would want to scale back the Gundams anyway. I've yet to see so much as a shred of evidence to suggest that the "Grandiose Gundam" lineart wasn't actually a moderately accurate guess.
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Old 2006-01-25, 13:33   Link #80
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hehe...

Well I guess I will get my chance to tear-in Soulzar...

No ones saying he would want to (I think that's BEYOND OBVIOUS), what many are saying is that he should (based on the poll even you did)...GAT-X series Gundams to FREEDOM and JUSTICE to S-F and .//hackatsuki all in the span of 2 years with Akatsuki actually existing at the same time or even before FREEDOM with even more technology in the form of Fin-funnels and full beam-coating (Perfectly suited to destroy the first PROVIDENCE which is arguably a better suit than orginal FREEDOM)...If that's a moderatley accurate guess then next series we'll see a metal-planet (alla CYBERTRON) transform into a Gundam to keep up the pace...The word "moderate" should be a faux-pa in this discussion...everything about the C.E. is super-sized fries and drinks...

20 years from C.E. 74 you'll have pilots sitting at tables sipping lattes with pysco-frames on controlling fleets of Gundams in space at the current rate...Kira piloting STRIKE in the sand-arc is probably the last time we will ever see nominally acceptable looking battles...but at the time who knew?
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