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Old 2006-02-24, 15:55   Link #21
Hunter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yellow Flash
- Danzou was known as Sandaime's rival. It is a rule that rivalry means equal strength.

Kakashi-Gai, Sasuke-Naruto, Jiraiya-Orochimaru are roughly equal ninjas.

- Yondaime was about 20 years younger than Orochimaru.
There was never a statement that would even remotely hint at a rivalry.

- Sai defeated Yamato while Naruto looked like a complete moron.
This is the Naruto whose "growth surpasses all imagination", after three years sannin training.
So, yes, Sai's talent has to be acknowledged, and he certainly has potential similar to Naruto and Sasuke.
After all, Danzou-sama praised his ninja art skills.
First trying to rival someone never meant to be equal with him. Naruto's rivalry with Sasuke began way before he could be compared to him in term of strength for example.

But anyway it's out of the point, it was said that Dazou rivaled with Sarutobi for the Hokage title and not rival ala Gai/Kakashi or Sasuke/Naruto, ie they both tried to succeed to the 2nd. Sarutobi was chosen, Danzou was not.
Just as Yondaime was chosen and Orochimaru was not.
The difference of age between Oro and Yondaime is completely irrelevent to the subject, in fact you don't even know Danzou's age for that matters.

What you say about Sai has also nothing to do with what I pointed, you said that Sai was the most talented ninja of the village which is pure assumption and wasn't even what Danzou said to begin with.
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Old 2006-02-24, 16:06   Link #22
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Danzou was not "trying" to rival with Sarutobi, he was known as his rival.
It is very obvious that he had about the same power.
But I am not surprised that you are nitpicking again.

Danzou is clearly very old, so we all know they were about the same age/generation.

If you want to claim that Sai isn't the most talented, you should at least tell us your candidate.
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Old 2006-02-24, 16:28   Link #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yellow Flash
Danzou was not "trying" to rival with Sarutobi, he was known as his rival.
It is very obvious that he had about the same power.
But I am not surprised that you are nitpicking again.
It wasn't said that Danzou and Sarutobi rivaled each other, it was said that Danzou and Sarutobi were in competion for the Hokage title which isn't the same thing. Competition that he lost anyway.
What you call nitpicking is simply basic understanding.

Quote:
Danzou is clearly very old, so we all know they were about the same age/generation.
I didn't say that Danzou isn't from the same generation , I said that age was irrelevent and that you don't even know this age anyway, try to answer to the point made instead of partially answering the last words of one sentence.

Quote:
If you want to claim that Sai isn't the most talented, you should at least tell us your candidate.
I didn't claim that, I pointed out that you're bulshiting around like usual, that's it.
Danzou said that Sai was the most skilled/talented/stronger (I don't really remember what he exactly said in japanese) in this generation in the village. That is a fact. A fact about Danzou's expressed opinion at least.

What you said was that it was fact that Sai was the most talented ninja in the village and a potential Sannin.
Simply put you carved "in his generation" out of the sentence, added "potential Sannin" and forgot the whole "mentor boasting about pupil" situation.


Anyway if you want my opinion from what I saw so far and given that we're yet to see Sai's power the most talented person of this generation still in the village seems to be Neji.
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Old 2006-02-24, 16:50   Link #24
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- It is a given that Danzou was rougly equal to Sarutobi, and your words didn't convince me.
Also, I thought it was funny that you actually deny being a nitpicker.

- Age is relevant in the discussion about rivalry, because the rivals in the manga all are about the same age.
Kakashi-Gai, Sasuke-Naruto etc. Your example Yondaime-Orochimaru is different from Sandaime-Danzou relationship.
In fact, Yondaime had no relationship with Orochimaru, from what we have seen.

- Sai is clearly the most skilled ninja of his generation. This was not a mentor overrating his pupil.
Danzou isn't the type for this anyway. Plus, I said Sai is the most talented, but of course I was referring to this generation.
I wouldn't try to compare him to Kakashi, Orochimaru or even Yondaime.
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Old 2006-02-24, 18:07   Link #25
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Danzou and Sarutobi were not necessarily "rivals." They competed for the same position, but they may not even have dealt with eachother directly in the process. Political rivals perhaps, but that implies nothing about their relative power. Danzou could have been considerably weaker than Sarutobi or far stronger for all we know, but without a flashback or the testimony of a knowledgeable character there's no way to tell for sure.
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Old 2006-02-25, 02:30   Link #26
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yellow, you seem outnumbered. all of your facts are in fact the impressions
that you got from reading the manga.

they aren't explicitly stated anywhere in the manga. your opinions are certainly valid, but i'm afraid what hunter points out is just right.

reference: ch 281 pg 18 (near the end of the chapter)

danzou says sai's just the strongest in his generation...
...
...
...
...that's it. no "sannin" implication

ch 284, pg 17

tsunade says danzou was the opposition to the third.

well, depending on your translation, it could be anything. however,
because it could be anything, it isn't SPECIFICALLY sandaime's rival in terms of, well, strength and influence.

sorry yellowflash, but you should back down. however, i like to read how you
keep on justifying your points, so i wouldn't mind reading your response.
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Old 2006-02-25, 03:57   Link #27
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Sai being the most talented of his generation... maybe... really no way of knowing for sure, but it can probably be assumed that he is atleast Jounin level, along with the likes of Neji and the sand ninjas...

But sai being sannin level... no thats just seriously pushing it... There is nothing to really say that Sai is on par with Akatsuki members, Jiariya and so forth... I mean, his training session with Yamato is no real bearing on how skilled sai is... it was merely traning, and more then likely Yamato was holding back in the fight... only evading and defending himself instead of seriously fighting back offecively... i mean, if that fight really was supposed to show us how great Sai is, then Kishi would have shown us a lot more of the fight

As for Danzou and Sarutobi... i would agree that they were probably close in strength... afterall, only the strongest of Shinobi are considered for the position... hell, Danzou could have actually been stonger then Sarutobi, since we know that strength alone does not a hokage make... Danzou lost the seat to Sarutobi, not because he was nessisarily weaker, but for similar reasons why Orochimaru lost the title to Yondiame; the previous hokage did not like the way they think... Orochimaru proabbly would having become the hokage if his ideals were more like Sandiame, and the same could possibly be said about Danzou... but ofcourse, there's always the chance they did loose their chance for hokage due to being weaker... we may never know for sure

As for Danzou current strength... thats a big unknown... more then likely his strength deteriorated with age just like Sarutobi, but we have no idea how much it deteriorated... not to mention that Danzou does not look like he's in the best of health... i mean, his head is covered in bandages, he walks with a cane and i think he's also missing an arm... and until we see a flashback of him, we don't know if that's how he was back when he competed for hokage or if he lost his arm and so-forth afterall... if it all happened after, then we can assume that his strength has probably deteriorated a lot more...
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Old 2006-02-25, 08:10   Link #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yellow Flash
- It is a given that Danzou was rougly equal to Sarutobi, and your words didn't convince me.
Also, I thought it was funny that you actually deny being a nitpicker.
Let's be straight, I'm not trying to convince you. In fact I don't think I ever tried that when it comes to you, I'm merely correcting.
In your mouth 'given' means 'I think so' and we pretty much all know how what you think is rarely even remotely connected to true facts.
Actually since it's a thread about Danzou, what do you think about the latest developement of Sai's mission in regard to your past assumptions about the impossibility for Danzou working with Orochimaru?
Also I am a nitpicker, just not for this precise point, that's all.

Quote:
- Age is relevant in the discussion about rivalry, because the rivals in the manga all are about the same age.
Kakashi-Gai, Sasuke-Naruto etc. Your example Yondaime-Orochimaru is different from Sandaime-Danzou relationship.
In fact, Yondaime had no relationship with Orochimaru, from what we have seen.
Circular logic as Sandaime-Danzou aren't depainted as rival lile Kakashi-Gai, etc to begin with.
Once again the only known relationship about them in the past is that they competed for the Hokage tittle, certainely nothing about their fighting abilities being roughly equal just because they both wanted the chair.

Quote:
- Sai is clearly the most skilled ninja of his generation. This was not a mentor overrating his pupil.
Danzou isn't the type for this anyway. Plus, I said Sai is the most talented, but of course I was referring to this generation.
I wouldn't try to compare him to Kakashi, Orochimaru or even Yondaime.
How clear is that when we're yet to see Sai fighting seriously? How clear is Danzou type for you when you thought absolutely impossible that he could make a deal with Oro given his personality?
In fact how Danzou's personality can be clear at all given that we only know that he's a warmonger? Why it is so hard for you to get the difference between facts and your own assumptions?
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Old 2006-02-25, 12:14   Link #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by astayanax
I am pretty sure he wants to be Hokage. I am sure he despises Tsunade too as she represents the very thing that he feels make Konoha weak. As for Naruto, I believe he wants to use him as a weapon; similiar to how the other villages do it.

I don't see Root as 'bad' per say; but a group of individuals who believe in missions and goals; and not individuals.
I think I agree with this.


Wasn't there this "Hawk" thing written in the first chapters he appeared?
He is a "hard liner", believing in the path of military power. Good thing he is not in charge, such people tend to start wars and do other quite stupid things without really considering other possibilites.
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Old 2006-02-25, 12:22   Link #30
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"Let's be straight, I'm not trying to convince you. In fact I don't think I ever tried that when it comes to you, I'm merely correcting.
In your mouth 'given' means 'I think so' and we pretty much all know how what you think is rarely even remotely connected to true facts."

I have reason to associate rivalry with equal strength.
You like to say that I invent things "out of nowhere", which is not true.

By the way, I would like to see your opinion rather than pointing out "lack of evidence".
For example, about Danzou's strength.


"Actually since it's a thread about Danzou, what do you think about the latest developement of Sai's mission in regard to your past assumptions about the impossibility for Danzou working with Orochimaru?"

I didn't see that any evidence that Danzou is willing to work with Orochimaru.
So far we have seen Sai saying that he is not an enemy, doing his fake smile.
In my opinion, there is no reason to jump to conclusions.



"Also I am a nitpicker, just not for this precise point, that's all."

See. You doing it again!! :P


"How clear is that when we're yet to see Sai fighting seriously? How clear is Danzou type for you when you thought absolutely impossible that he could make a deal with Oro given his personality?
In fact how Danzou's personality can be clear at all given that we only know that he's a warmonger? Why it is so hard for you to get the difference between facts and your own assumptions?"

Actually, I was referring to his personality that doesn't tolerate emotions.
Hence, if he were to praise Sai as the most talented ninja of this generation, I would think he is 100% right.
You seem to have doubts about that one, yet idiotic Iruka saying that Sandaime was the strongest, you pass this as fact.
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Old 2006-02-25, 13:10   Link #31
Hunter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yellow Flash
I have reason to associate rivalry with equal strength.
You like to say that I invent things "out of nowhere", which is not true.
Surprisingly enough you forgot to answer the part about your circular logic with rivalry, since it still answers to your point let's cut and past :

Circular logic as Sandaime-Danzou aren't depainted as rival lile Kakashi-Gai, etc to begin with.
Once again the only known relationship about them in the past is that they competed for the Hokage tittle, certainely nothing about their fighting abilities being roughly equal just because they both wanted the chair

Quote:
By the way, I would like to see your opinion rather than pointing out "lack of evidence".
For example, about Danzou's strength.
Currently or back then?

Quote:
I didn't see that any evidence that Danzou is willing to work with Orochimaru.
So far we have seen Sai saying that he is not an enemy, doing his fake smile.
In my opinion, there is no reason to jump to conclusions.
That he's not an ennemy and have a message from Danzou for Oro.
But I will let you that, you're right here. This is not an evidence about working together even with the prevision of the next chapter named betrayal.

Quote:
Actually, I was referring to his personality that doesn't tolerate emotions.
Hence, if he were to praise Sai as the most talented ninja of this generation, I would think he is 100% right.
You seem to have doubts about that one, yet idiotic Iruka saying that Sandaime was the strongest, you pass this as fact.
Zabuza thought about Haku as a ninja tool and was also about how ninja should be emotionless weapon and still made boast about Haku compared to Kakashi.
Then Sai could very well be the best which doesn't change what I said.
Especially if Danzou think that being without emotions is part of what a ninja should be as Oro thinks it's about talent and skill and as Jiraiya thnks it's about about never giving up and guts.
Calling Iruka idiotic for saying something which doesn't please you just show how just listen to what you like.
Re-read what I said, I hardly pass anything as fact in the first place and I certainely didn't say that Danzou should be lying.
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Old 2006-02-25, 13:16   Link #32
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Quote:
Hence, if he were to praise Sai as the most talented ninja of this generation, I would think he is 100% right.
There were so many things said in this manga that weren't true... why do you think are you the only one who is able to distinguish the really true ones from the miscalculations^^
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Old 2006-02-25, 13:23   Link #33
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"There were so many things said in this manga that weren't true... why do you think are you the only one who is able to distinguish the really true ones from the miscalculations."

I'm just saying that Danzou isn't the type to brag about another ninja's ability.
Tsunade said he is a logical military type.
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Old 2006-02-25, 22:16   Link #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yellow Flash
"There were so many things said in this manga that weren't true... why do you think are you the only one who is able to distinguish the really true ones from the miscalculations."

I'm just saying that Danzou isn't the type to brag about another ninja's ability.
Tsunade said he is a logical military type.
Tsunade also said that after that day back then there would no more be 3 legendary leafs...
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Old 2006-02-26, 05:12   Link #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ri0
Tsunade also said that after that day back then there would no more be 3 legendary leafs...
I don't see how this is connected to my post.

Tsunade has shown emotions and confidence in a battle.

Danzou simply explained as a fact that Sai is the most talented of his generation.
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Old 2006-02-26, 06:08   Link #36
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Sayin DANZOU is equal to sarutobi is like sayin kakashis father is on the level of the sanins which he wasnt. There is no evidence of danzou = sarutobi, hell even look at orochimaru who was toyin around with an old sarutobi
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Old 2006-02-26, 07:08   Link #37
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hell even look at orochimaru who was toyin around with an old sarutobi
He wasnt toying, he was tormenting.
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Old 2006-02-26, 09:02   Link #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yellow Flash
I don't see how this is connected to my post.

Tsunade has shown emotions and confidence in a battle.

Danzou simply explained as a fact that Sai is the most talented of his generation.
Because there are often things said that aren't true... it was just one of many examples.
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Old 2006-02-26, 09:30   Link #39
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When we say Sai is the most skilled of his generation do you mean? He is better? Or stronger? Cuz...

So far i say it's almost logical to say: Sai is way below Naruto's level...and probably thus Sasuke's level.

[In Konoha]
During Naruto's attack on Sai he used 0 (Kyuubi related) nin/gen jutsu's
[In the woods]
During the training...Naruto used 0 Kyuubi related techniques (as shown)
[Bridge]
During Naruto's battle vs Orochimaru Sai said:

- Is this Naruto? {3 tails}
- This air it hurts {3 tails} [Oro: you are below Sasuke's lvl]
- I cant get close like this {4 tails}
- Is Naruto dead? {4 tails}
- Is my chance Now? {4 tails - Oro defeated}

These lines seem awfully like indications that he isnt what we expect.

I honestly doubt if he can fight Sakura evenly...

I doubt Danzou has "seen" Gaara/Neji/Naruto/Sakura/Sasuke in action...cuz probably:
{gonna bring up dbz again sry}
Like dr. gero/danzou...is he calculating the growth/progress from academy students/chuunin exam/pre timeskip...

And after these 3 years these (main) characters arent what Danzou/Sai expects...
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Old 2006-02-26, 09:35   Link #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Johnny 5
Sai is way below Naruto's level.
In terms of chakra, yes. But that's all. If you think otherwise, you are sadly mistaken.

Sai has more talent and skills. Basically, he replaced Sasuke in Team 7.
This was clearly seen during the five days before the mission starts.
Naruto looked like a total moron, a useless genin compared to Sai.
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