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Old 2006-02-10, 11:14   Link #21
Tremalkinger
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by phaerax
the only thing i noticed in ep17 which i cant explain no matter how hard i try is why didnt mashiro take damage when arika was hit by erstin's slave?
I've been wondering about this myself. My guess would be that they just didn't have room in the episode for a shot of Mashiro in pain, since every single second of that episode was jam packed with stuff. Still, it would be nice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matrim
Is it wiser to sit like a sitting duck and wait for the cannon to shoot? For all they knew it might have shot again seconds after the first shot and destroyed the whole arena killing all the Otomes. I guess they have watched Gundam Seed and know that superweapons need a lot of time to recharge their batteries and reload.
Natsuki didn't know anything about the capabilities of the weapon. Should she have ordered waves of students to charge to their deaths? Or told everyone to scatter, protecting the important people, and regroup so that they could retaliate.
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Old 2006-02-10, 11:25   Link #22
SoldierOfDarkness
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: From the deepest abyss in the world, where you think?
Age: 28
Quote:
Natsuki didn't know anything about the capabilities of the weapon. Should she have ordered waves of students to charge to their deaths? Or told everyone to scatter, protecting the important people, and regroup so that they could retaliate.
No actually she should've sent in wave after wave of students at the cannon, clogging it with corpses

Quote:
Schwarz is not a country though and the best way to protect the Academy was to destroy the cannon which seemed fully capable of destroying it.
Students first; Academy second.

And like others said, they don't know the full capabilities of the cannon, I'm pretty sure Schwarz would've had dozens of SLAVEs and other mechanisms in hand defending it.

What would happen if they did what you did and it turns out they can't take out the cannon then? Then everyone would be dead. We can do ifs this and that but that's how it turned out.
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Old 2006-02-10, 11:26   Link #23
Matrim
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Quote:
Natsuki didn't know anything about the capabilities of the weapon.
Not true, she did know it can take down entire buildings in one shot (if they managed to see that the port or whatever was destroyed). Waves of students? Not a single one attacked it, they all kind of deserved to be shot because of their stupidity - all it would have taken would be Smith turning the cannon and razing Graderobe to the ground just when they all gathered there. The point is that no one even tried to attack it, it could have been a piece of cake to destroy or impossible but they didn't even try.
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Old 2006-02-10, 11:26   Link #24
SoldierOfDarkness
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: From the deepest abyss in the world, where you think?
Age: 28
Quote:
Natsuki didn't know anything about the capabilities of the weapon. Should she have ordered waves of students to charge to their deaths? Or told everyone to scatter, protecting the important people, and regroup so that they could retaliate.
No actually she should've sent in wave after wave of students at the cannon, clogging it with corpses

Quote:
Schwarz is not a country though and the best way to protect the Academy was to destroy the cannon which seemed fully capable of destroying it.
Students first; Academy second.

And like others said, they don't know the full capabilities of the cannon, I'm pretty sure Schwarz would've had dozens of SLAVEs and other mechanisms in hand defending it.

What would happen if they did what you did and it turns out they can't take out the cannon then? Then everyone would be dead. We can do ifs this and that but that's how it turned out.

Quote:
Not true, she did know it can take down entire buildings in one shot (if they managed to see that the port or whatever was destroyed). Waves of students? Not a single one attacked it, they all kind of deserved to be shot because of their stupidity - all it would have taken would be Smith turning the cannon and razing Graderobe to the ground just when they all gathered there. The point is that no one even tried to attack it, it could have been a piece of cake to destroy or impossible but they didn't even try.
When they meant capabilities they were talking about other things as well such as defense mechnanisms. Considering the amount of time it would take to materialize their robes and then charge, the distance as well, Smith would've taken a potshot at them and we'd have alot of dead bodies. Natsuki realized that they were all sitting ducks right there and getting out was highest priority because the cannon could've fired again at any time and didn't want to take any chances.

Quote:
The part that I bold I think pretty much awsers your question. Don't forget that Erstin was halfassing her attacks as Smith said which why Arika herself was barley hurt by any of attacks, so Mashiro probably feel much damage.
She WAS half-assing her attacks. Compared to what Arika was doing to the SLAVE Erstin was pretty much love tapping her.

And the situation with Haruka is nothing more than comedy relief.
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Old 2006-02-10, 19:11   Link #25
Matrim
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Quote:
Students first; Academy second.
Well when they all got to the Academy that really seemed like the way they were going to disappear from the face of the planet, although it's debatable who would have been annihilated first and who second.

Quote:
What would happen if they did what you did and it turns out they can't take out the cannon then? Then everyone would be dead.
Everyone? Isn't that a bit of exaggerration? Plus, as I said they might have ended dead anyway if the plot shield and Smith's secret weapon which only prevented them from using their robes rather than killing them did not save them.

Quote:
Natsuki realized that they were all sitting ducks right there and getting out was highest priority because the cannon could've fired again at any time and didn't want to take any chances.
But for some secret reason they wouldn't be sitting ducks in the Academy, is that what you are trying to say? Maybe Garderobe has a force field or something protecting it then.

It's quite simple really - when some military force sees a weapon of mass destruction you would expect everyone to try to destroy it ASAP, unless they want to be on the receiving end of it. It's like a nation smuggling nuclear warheads in another nation's territory and expecting the launching device not to be attacked immediately after its first shot before dealing more damage.
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Old 2006-02-10, 19:18   Link #26
Tempest35
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Well the cannon DID fire in a direction not on line with Garderobe. If it was on a turnable base, I'm sure that Natsuki and/or Shizuru would have tried to take it out pronto.

Natsuki probably was going with the idea that they were after the Queen (which they were, technically).

Although they probably should have take the 'Do now, ask forgiveness later' bit, I guess Natsuki didn't want to deal with another political crisis at Garderobe's Council yet again. Then again, who'd want to listen to those two old coots hollering at each other for 30 minutes ...
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Old 2006-02-10, 21:05   Link #27
Iron Maw
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Join Date: Feb 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matrim
Not true, she did know it can take down entire buildings in one shot (if they managed to see that the port or whatever was destroyed). Waves of students? Not a single one attacked it, they all kind of deserved to be shot because of their stupidity - all it would have taken would be Smith turning the cannon and razing Graderobe to the ground just when they all gathered there. The point is that no one even tried to attack it, it could have been a piece of cake to destroy or impossible but they didn't even try.
If Smith wanted to destroy Graderobe he would have done so in the first shot, which would have kept Natsuki and Co. from materialzing and escaping in the first place.

This isn't first time Windbloom has been attacked by Scwhartz epsecially since they were after Mashiro 14 years ago and in Episode 1. Natsuki mostly thought they were after her again which is why she had Arika move Mashiro to Garderobe to protect her.

And we don't even how far that Cannon's range is anyway.

Last edited by Iron Maw; 2006-02-10 at 21:23.
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Old 2006-02-10, 23:01   Link #28
philip72
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Join Date: Dec 2005
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I don't think the idea of anyone attacking Garderobe with anything destructive (including the cannon), would be a particularly feasible option to attackers, and Natsuki probably knew this. The knowledge contained in the library was coveted by everyone.
Nobody would dare risk destroying it.
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Old 2006-02-11, 00:00   Link #29
knightsljx
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Join Date: Apr 2004
the only gripe I have is how useless ALL the otomes are. the freaking country is under attack, Garderobe is under attack, and what are they all doing? the teachers are snivelling in the classroom with some students. The pearls hide behind a building going "maki maki" while 2 freaking Corals (attempt to) fend of the entire assault??

They release ALL of the gems, where the hell did the rest go? The bathroom?
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Old 2006-02-11, 00:10   Link #30
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by knightsljx
the only gripe I have is how useless ALL the otomes are. the freaking country is under attack, Garderobe is under attack, and what are they all doing? the teachers are snivelling in the classroom with some students. The pearls hide behind a building going "maki maki" while 2 freaking Corals (attempt to) fend of the entire assault??

They release ALL of the gems, where the hell did the rest go? The bathroom?
Most of the students have loyalties to their respective countries, NOT Gardrobe. Hence they can't be relied on to defend Gardrobe when war breaks out. That's why most are told to escape back to their respective homelands.
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Old 2006-02-11, 01:07   Link #31
Iron Maw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by philip72
I don't think the idea of anyone attacking Garderobe with anything destructive (including the cannon), would be a particularly feasible option to attackers, and Natsuki probably knew this. The knowledge contained in the library was coveted by everyone.
Nobody would dare risk destroying it.
Exactly.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant
Most of the students have loyalties to their respective countries, NOT Gardrobe. Hence they can't be relied on to defend Gardrobe when war breaks out. That's why most are told to escape back to their respective homelands.
Plus Nina as the representative of Coral Class has already showed that they suck against standard Slaves back in Ep 1.

The Pearl Class #1's Akane barley stood her ground against the V2. Slaves in Ep 13 too.

Last edited by Iron Maw; 2006-02-11 at 02:26.
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Old 2006-02-11, 01:52   Link #32
Eclipze
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matrim
Schwarz is not a country though and the best way to protect the Academy was to destroy the cannon which seemed fully capable of destroying it.
Unfortunately, no. The cannon fired on a place in WindBloom, not Garderobe. Unless the cannon has HIT Garderobe, there shouldn't be any reason for Natsuki to intervene. Not that it makes much sense to have a treaty like that in the first place.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matrim
Is it wiser to sit like a sitting duck and wait for the cannon to shoot? For all they knew it might have shot again seconds after the first shot and destroyed the whole arena killing all the Otomes. I guess they have watched Gundam Seed and know that superweapons need a lot of time to recharge their batteries and reload.
Lets see...:
1) There was only 3 person at that time with capabilities of a Meister(Shizuru Natsuki and Nao. Miss Maria probably cant fight as well anymore due to age, and I believe Yohko was busy giving out instructions to the Corals/Pearls).
2) There was more advanced and new slaves attacking WindBloom.
3) Pearls and Corals generally are at best strong enough to tackle the new slaves in the ratio of; (estimated figures)
3-4 Corals : 1 slave
2Pearls : 1 slave
4) However, they are also handed the job of evacuating and protecting the civilians (especially the ones present at the stadium).

Now, if we were to just send 2 Pearls (Natsuki and Shizuru engaged Aswad while Nao *ahem*ran away*ahem*), they would have to:
- Clear the slaves engagement on the way.
- Dodge the cannon attacks
- Deal with whatever other defensive mechnism that the cannon possess (as mentioned, stuff such as de-materialising abilities).

That alone, it is safe to assume that it takes someone of at least Meister level to take down the cannon without risking too much.

Did they have any Meister to spare? No. Arika was protecting Mashiro (and she isn't exactly as capable as a Meister in terms of her own combat capabilities minus the strength of her robes).
Natsuki and Shizuru facing Aswad.
Nao was nowhere to be seen (I presume she did fiight some of the slaves, but once the anti-otome weapon destroyed the underground and caused the otome powers to malfunction, she tried to escape).

So, unless you're willing to bet on luck for the Pearls to dodge the cannon fire, avoid contact with slaves, sneak up to the cannon and bypass the defensive abilities, I would think that by anime-logic(whatever that is), it would be impossible.
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Old 2006-02-11, 08:58   Link #33
Matrim
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Quote:
Unfortunately, no. The cannon fired on a place in WindBloom, not Garderobe. Unless the cannon has HIT Garderobe, there shouldn't be any reason for Natsuki to intervene. Not that it makes much sense to have a treaty like that in the first place.
If I repeat one more time that the treaty explanation is the only one that makes sense, would someone actually see that and stop arguing with me about something we seem to agree about? In other words, yes, that would explain it, although the Doremi fansubs suggest that Natsuki asked for and received permission for the Otomes to fight within the borders of Windbloom.

As for the rest of your post, let's just agree to disagree I am tired of discussing this plothole.

Last edited by Matrim; 2006-02-11 at 09:30.
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Old 2006-02-11, 15:22   Link #34
KiraDouji
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It seems less a plothole and more a matter of opinion on strategies. :P If Matrim was in charge, it seems, the canon would have been attacked first. However, Natsuki was in charge and the first thing she thought of was protecting people. That's your explanation. It's not a plothole, it's a decision, regardless of whether or not you agree with it, and if you don't, well, no one ever said these characters were perfect.

I'd be more interested in finding out how Sergey survived all those attacks. Is that just unexplained as of now, or just a big ol' plothole? I doubt we'll have solid evidence until the end of the series.

- Kira
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Old 2006-02-15, 01:48   Link #35
warpshadow
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempest35
Has to be or else Yukino would have been KO'ing herself when they threw the rock on Haruka's head in ep 18 if they had the link on all the time.
I was hoping that would happen. It would have been an improvement to the scene.
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Old 2006-02-16, 20:12   Link #36
Lost
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Join Date: Jan 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by KiraDouji
It seems less a plothole and more a matter of opinion on strategies. :P If Matrim was in charge, it seems, the canon would have been attacked first. However, Natsuki was in charge and the first thing she thought of was protecting people. That's your explanation. It's not a plothole, it's a decision, regardless of whether or not you agree with it, and if you don't, well, no one ever said these characters were perfect.

I'd be more interested in finding out how Sergey survived all those attacks. Is that just unexplained as of now, or just a big ol' plothole? I doubt we'll have solid evidence until the end of the series.

- Kira
Same here. But I guess it'll be revealed before the series ends. It better be...

*Raises Hand* I've got another plothole! (I think) In episode 14 or 15, we saw how Sergey was an ace with his pistol when he saved Arika. In episode 18, he was carrying a psitol in the tunnel, which he used to dispatch two baddies. Again, perfect aiming. I would have tot that later, in the confrontation, that pistol would have come in very handy... We all know Sergey wouldn't shoot Nagi for the world, but Smith was just a few feet away. With aiming such as his, Sergey wouldn't have missed Another useless male? *coughTatecough*
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Old 2006-02-17, 00:42   Link #37
Gitami
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lost
Same here. But I guess it'll be revealed before the series ends. It better be...

*Raises Hand* I've got another plothole! (I think) In episode 14 or 15, we saw how Sergey was an ace with his pistol when he saved Arika. In episode 18, he was carrying a psitol in the tunnel, which he used to dispatch two baddies. Again, perfect aiming. I would have tot that later, in the confrontation, that pistol would have come in very handy... We all know Sergey wouldn't shoot Nagi for the world, but Smith was just a few feet away. With aiming such as his, Sergey wouldn't have missed Another useless male? *coughTatecough*
As long as Smith is working for Nagi Sergey can't shoot him.


As for the canon capabilities maybe it's like a dimlight swtich that can fire in varying degrees, I doubt anyone would want to fire nuclear lasers while standing next to ground zero.
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Old 2006-02-17, 12:28   Link #38
Seska
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Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Germany
Age: 41
Okay, that the mostly here speaks from the Tower (Castle) Weapon, let me try to give an explain.

Me a Diplomatic visitor in the Arena.

"Strange, that boss would come here. Well free time for me. Now i can Slacking a bit around... Nice Virgin heaven "(like Nao said to Serjay )

"Well lets see, the new Tower waht the Princess let has build"

"Strange looking, and why is the top moving?"

"Woah, wahts this... stange lights is gatering around the Top"

"Wuahhhhh, what a range this pillow of light have, and waht Firepower even at this long range. Whats that?" *gasp*

"whats going on, whats with these strange Slaves or something in the air, and so many"

"Help, i need to ge outher here"...

"Master, im your Otome please follow me. Hurry, all Security was taken down!!"."MOVE"

*BOOOOOOM* in the Arena where i was sitting for 2 minutes ago.

End of my try.

And, for the part. Why Erestin stays quiet about Tomoe. Perhaps they are from the same country?

And Chie. Perhaps she thinks its was her fault that she dont have taken good care of her.

Mfg,
Seska
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Old 2006-02-17, 14:17   Link #39
coefficient
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How Nina and Arika survived going atomic over Erstin. Nina turns up in 18 without so much as a word towards explanation.

Maybe it'll be explained in 19.
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Old 2006-02-17, 15:57   Link #40
Anh_Minh
I disagree with you all.
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
I'd have sent someone to try and destroy that canon, first thing. It's a close, obvious, major threat.

So what if it has "unknown defenses"? If it can't be destroyed easily, then the otome can retreat and we'll all know more about it. There's nothing to be gained by waiting for the enemy to do whatever he wants to do.

Frankly, I'd have considered repelling the attack more urgent than saving the dignitaries. After all, plenty of other diplomats where they came from.
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