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Old 2006-03-16, 03:53   Link #81
Solace
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xenoalpha
Yeah, they sucked compared to Fia but are STILL unique GEM meisters. Isn't that the main point?
So each of these otome have a unique master? Or is it possible the reason these nameless otome suck so much is because they are graduated Pearls, and not Meister level otome?

Coral robe, for training, can only work with temp contract from royalty or pillar
Pearl robe, a large step up from coral, same restrictions
Meister robe, special named gem, requires formal contract with one master who also carries a gem, major step up from Pearl, same level as Pillar
Pillar robe, doesn't require a master contract, same level of strength as Meister
Valkyrie robe, gems from a different shinso, power on level with Meister/Pillar, doesn't require a contract

That sums up the robes we have seen up to this point. Aswald cyborgs have been shown to be on the same level as Meisters, Miyu has been shown to be far above Meisters. Slaves seem to be about as powerful as Pearls. We can assume that otome graduate as Pearls if they do not have a contract with a member of royalty in the country they serve, because we are never told of a gem level between Pearl and Meister. Meisters are given a special ceremony in which they are given a special gem and form a contract with thier new master. Some otome are given special priveledges to become Pillars.

So basically from what I've seen so far my guess is that otome who graduate but do not become Meisters serve under the royalty of thier country, as pearls. They are most likely activated one of the ways we have seen already, either through temp contracts with royalty, or using the Meister to start the pearl gem. That is assuming Meister gems can do that, but we have seen a Pillar do so.

In any case, it's all speculation until Sunrise comes out and says "this is how it all works, here you go".
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Old 2006-03-16, 04:48   Link #82
Eclipze
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ankoku
In any case, it's all speculation until Sunrise comes out and says "this is how it all works, here you go".
*ponders*. Will that day ever come?

Ok, for the sake of nothingness (Im bored), I shall re-write what the hell Im trying to say.

-Meisters are shown to be at around the same level as Pillars/cyborgs. Episode 3? with Shizuru vs one of the cyborgs.
-There doesnt seem to be a "level" between Perals and Meisters. (as ankoki said)
-I dont see how many combination of unique GEMs could exist, considering the total number of graduates over th course of 50+ years.
-Those "unknown" Otomes who were defending the castle with Fia were shown to be NOT at the level of Meister. Be it the Robe's power, or combat capabilities (skills). The very fact that there didnt seem to be any decent opposition from those no-name Otomes meant easy victory for the Aswad cyborgs.
-Which is why I dont consider them as Meisters, but instead Otomes who were at a lesser level than Meister (Pearl or the currently non-existant title for Otomes between Meister and Pearl)
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Old 2006-03-16, 05:10   Link #83
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eclipze
*ponders*. Will that day ever come?

Ok, for the sake of nothingness (Im bored), I shall re-write what the hell Im trying to say.

-Meisters are shown to be at around the same level as Pillars/cyborgs. Episode 3? with Shizuru vs one of the cyborgs.
-There doesnt seem to be a "level" between Perals and Meisters. (as ankoki said)
-I dont see how many combination of unique GEMs could exist, considering the total number of graduates over th course of 50+ years.
-Those "unknown" Otomes who were defending the castle with Fia were shown to be NOT at the level of Meister. Be it the Robe's power, or combat capabilities (skills). The very fact that there didnt seem to be any decent opposition from those no-name Otomes meant easy victory for the Aswad cyborgs.
-Which is why I dont consider them as Meisters, but instead Otomes who were at a lesser level than Meister (Pearl or the currently non-existant title for Otomes between Meister and Pearl)
Shizuru vs cyborgs does NOT show Meisters being at the same level as pillars/cyborgs. Shizuru was one of the most feared of Meisters, while Haruka, the self-proclaimed rival of Shizuru, was known to be the physically strongest of all Otome. There are clear differences in GEMs, otherwise there would be no point for Ultimate Black Diamond to be used. But to say there is a separate class is pushing it.

The official website of Mai Otome showed a pyramid of Otome classes, with Meister at the top and Pearl below them.

The Meisters DON'T stay at their jobs for ever in the last fifty years. You are assuming every Meister who ever graduated in the last fifty years were all still employed, which is ridiculous. We KNOW Meisters retire regularly.

There is no evidence to prove the Meisters being defeated were not Meisters in combat ability. In fact, you haven't seen them fight at all. What kind of evidence is that?
You are assuming the Meisters were weak because you incorrectly assumed that the Cyborgs were weak.
Evidence based on assumption is not evidence.

########
In conclusion, it is extremely likely there is a limited number of meister GEMs available. Though the number isn't limited enough to restrict Otome numbers too much. The fact that GEMs do get recycled/inherited means it's not something you throw away. On another note, we were shown that the Aswarld Cyborgs are at Otome level power, not that the Otomes were some how weaker than usual.
(if anything, those Otomes ARE the usual. Shizuru and Haruka were not exactly standard Otomes, as they are feared through out the land.)
Pearls were given the same GEM as each other, yet they have different combat abilities/levels. If anything, that proves the person using the GEM is just as important as the GEM being used, in determining combat levels.
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Old 2006-03-16, 06:32   Link #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant
Shizuru vs cyborgs does NOT show Meisters being at the same level as pillars/cyborgs. Shizuru was one of the most feared of Meisters, while Haruka, the self-proclaimed rival of Shizuru, was known to be the physically strongest of all Otome. There are clear differences in GEMs, otherwise there would be no point for Ultimate Black Diamond to be used. But to say there is a separate class is pushing it.
Shizuru is one of the most feared of Meisters, and yet Rado stood on equal ground with her? And this doesn't show how he is on the same level? The differences in gems of the same class are minimal. The real difference is the person using it. Shizuru fights with grace, Haruku uses brute force, that's just a fighting style. What country would want a Miester with a gem that wasn't as good as other gems? We don't know the significance of the Ultimate Black Diamond. We know it is bad that Nina has it, we know that the harmonium is connected to it, that's about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vallen chaos valiant
The Meisters DON'T stay at their jobs for ever in the last fifty years. You are assuming every Meister who ever graduated in the last fifty years were all still employed, which is ridiculous. We KNOW Meisters retire regularly.
I didn't see that assumption being made. We know that Meisters retire alot. What we are saying is that we know Meisters are limited in numbers, and that we know there is no level between Meister and Pearl. So a small army of Meister gem otome isn't very likely. Even more unlikely is that they are Meister otome who suck at fighting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vallen chaos valiant
There is no evidence to prove the Meisters being defeated were not Meisters in combat ability. In fact, you haven't seen them fight at all. What kind of evidence is that?
You are assuming the Meisters were weak because you incorrectly assumed that the Cyborgs were weak.
Evidence based on assumption is not evidence.
You are assuming they are Meisters to begin with. Again, it is just as likely they are not Meisters. You are correct, we don't see them fight. As a matter of fact, all we see is Aswald laying waste to the city, killing every otome they see. For having a small army of otome, Carlteya sure fell pretty quick, no? We never assumed the cyborgs were weak, in fact, we pegged them at Meister level based on the fights we have seen before.


Quote:
Originally Posted by vallen chaos valiant
In conclusion, it is extremely likely there is a limited number of meister GEMs available. Though the number isn't limited enough to restrict Otome numbers too much. The fact that GEMs do get recycled/inherited means it's not something you throw away. On another note, we were shown that the Aswarld Cyborgs are at Otome level power, not that the Otomes were some how weaker than usual.
(if anything, those Otomes ARE the usual. Shizuru and Haruka were not exactly standard Otomes, as they are feared through out the land.)
Pearls were given the same GEM as each other, yet they have different combat abilities/levels. If anything, that proves the person using the GEM is just as important as the GEM being used, in determining combat levels.
The number of Meister gems is probably limited to one per nation. We can figure this by the fact we have never seen a Master with more than one Meister. Pearls and Corals, on the other hand, are a much more common gem. If a Meister dies, her corpse poofs, losing the gem. We don't know if a replica is made to be given to a new otome. We do know that some gems are inherited, because we know that some otome have children and lose thier power.

We are shown that Aswald can hold thier own (and even win) against Meister level otome. There is a large difference between the power of a Pearl, and the power of a Meister. Shizuru and Haruka have the status of being fierce fighters, but that doesn't mean much on the battlefield. They are obviously excellent fighters though. I do agree that the person is the more important part of the battle. The gem just puts them on an equal ground. Some of the garderobe pearls and corals suck at fighting, yes. But, they are probably not going to be graduating either.

In any case, I think we've strayed really far from the plot hole topic, and are debating over something that can't be proven at this point in time.
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Old 2006-03-16, 06:46   Link #85
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The number of Meister gems is probably limited to one per nation. We can figure this by the fact we have never seen a Master with more than one Meister.
That is only correct if there is only one person qualified to be a Master per nation, which you imply to be the ruler.

But it is obvious there are NUMEROUS potential Masters per nation.

We have already proven in previous arguments, that a Master with multiple Meisters is a VERY bad idea, because killing one Meister will kill ALL of them.

So the only way this can work, is to obviously assign Meisters to lesser nobles.

Unless you are claiming there are only 12 Meister GEMs in the world?

Assumptions is one thing, but arguing that assumptions are facts is another.
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Old 2006-03-16, 07:00   Link #86
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*nods* Yep.

The GEMs grant the power but the wielder decides on how to utilize it. Shizuru's far better at utilizing the power her GEM grants as oppose to Haruka, who's a straight on battering ram. As we've seen, Nao is very good at utilizing her power compared to the other Pearls. That's why she was chosen as a Pillar - not because she was just plain 'stronger' than Akane or Chie (Shiho's an entirely different subject). If Pillars were chosen based on straight power and rank, then the #1 Pearl would always be chosen as a Pillar. If you want power, look at most of the Meisters in ep 3 that are shown - nearly all of them except for Haruka belonged to Natsuki's (and coincidently Mai's) graduate class. That class must have been amazing to produce not one but two Pillar candidates and 5+ 'Royal' Meister Otome. Just goes to show that if the competition is high amongst the students, then the levels of power reached are also higher than most.

Midori plus Gakutenou plus all 4 cyborgs couldn't make progress against just Shizuru and Natsuki - just two Pillars and Natsuki didn't even use an Element against them (of course she may not have one period but that's unlikely). Yet when they sacked Cartleya, Rado and the others used their own CHILDS to help as well. They didn't summon their CHILDS at Garderobe because they didn't want sack it, they wanted to take it over. Needless to say that Aswald's attack on Cartleya was Aswald going at FULL POWER - that and due to Sunrise, we didn't see the entire battle or how long it took so we don't know if it was really a cakewalk or not.

As for the GEMS themselves, obviously some GEMS grant more power the more in snych the user becomes with it - otherwise Arika and Nina wouldn't have gotten this powerful this quickly. Those GEMS are much older than 50 years - possibly made during Fumi's time as those two are the only known GEMS with pendants to go along with them.

Chie was originally going to serve as deputy to Haruka before all this 'mess' came about. She's going as an Otome, but not as a full Meister I don't think. I think that when Yukino plans to steps down, Haruka will turn over her GEM to Chie as she is contracted to the new President of Ealis. So keeping potentials around is always helpful and economical. Too bad Windbloom didn't realize that 15 years ago...-_-

The Meister GEMs used during the Dragon King war were not the unique ones that we see today - only a few unique ones survived through that war or were just never used at all. The unique ones we can probably and safely say are used only for Otome who would contract to the King or President of a country. GEMS used for those Otome have their own legendary name/title and those are very special. Let me clarify that Fia's title of 'Onyx of Beauty' is just her Meister title - her GEM is referred to as an Onyx but we don't know if it had a full name or not.
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Old 2006-03-16, 07:57   Link #87
Eclipze
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant
So the only way this can work, is to obviously assign Meisters to lesser nobles.
Question: Have we been told that getting contracted to a master (automatically)= Status of Meister?

Because unless we have, I dont see how it is not possible to argue that the Otomes besides Fia were Meisters.
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Old 2006-03-16, 08:22   Link #88
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eclipze
Question: Have we been told that getting contracted to a master (automatically)= Status of Meister?

Because unless we have, I dont see how it is not possible to argue that the Otomes besides Fia were Meisters.
Because of this diagram:



Anyone who isn't a Coral or Pearl is a Meister. There is no room for anything else in the diagram.

AND, there is this, again from the Official website:

Quote:
『乙HiME(オトメ)』。それは、王族や大統領など要人たちの警護や政治においてはブレーンやアドバイザ ーになる。立ち振る舞いも華麗で優雅な社交界の華でもある彼女らは、各国の少女たちの憧れであり夢の職業だ 。ただし、「マイスター」の称号を持つこの職業につける者はほんの一握り。素質を兼ね備えた者のみがマイスターの称号を得ることができる。
The quote specifically mentioned that a graduated Otome is called a Meister. That's the bold area I highlighted.

************
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Old 2006-03-16, 09:24   Link #89
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Shizuru's far better at utilizing the power her GEM grants as oppose to Haruka, who's a straight on battering ram.
Really? What do you base this on - a single battle in episode 10? Brute force often does the trick, you know. I don't think it has to do much with fighting styles, more with the fact that Haruka is a comic relief and Shizuru is not. I'd kill for a scene in which Haruka kicks the crap out of Shizuru but it's just not going to happen, alas, the comic relief should be doomed to lose against Miss Fan Favourite.

Quote:
As we've seen, Nao is very good at utilizing her power compared to the other Pearls. That's why she was chosen as a Pillar - not because she was just plain 'stronger' than Akane or Chie (Shiho's an entirely different subject).
How many times have we seen Nao fight? Once? How do you know how good she is in using her power? I think she was chosen for a Pillar because she is smart and also because it's not difficult to see that forcing her to obey some Master could easily lead to a disaster in the full sense of this word. Probably depriving Nagi of an Otome also played a part in this decision.

Quote:
The quote specifically mentioned that a graduated Otome is called a Meister. That's the bold area I highlighted.
It would have been nice of Sunrise to mention this in the actual series rather than on the site.
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Old 2006-03-16, 09:35   Link #90
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Quote:
It would have been nice of Sunrise to mention this in the actual series rather than on the site.
....you mean you didn't understand the garderobe system at all in the show until now?

How hard can that be? We all know that there are two classes and that all graduates pretty much become meister otomes.

The fact remains that the Aswald knights are cyborgs that used the remaining technology they had from the previous war which obviously allows them to hold their own against otomes.

The 5 Pillars obviously are the strongest of the meisters chosen by Shinso to serve the school. If the Aswald knights can give them a decent fight, anything lesser than the pillars are probably no match for them.
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Old 2006-03-16, 09:39   Link #91
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Well, I thought that the situation was just as mentioned on the site but since people argued at lenghts that it was not so, obviously it was not that clear. And I am still curious to see who are the Masters of the Otomes not bound to the ruler of the country.
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Old 2006-03-16, 10:32   Link #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness
The 5 Pillars obviously are the strongest of the meisters chosen by Shinso to serve the school.
Its not stated anywhere or even hinted..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matrim
Well, I thought that the situation was just as mentioned on the site but since people argued at lenghts that it was not so, obviously it was not that clear. And I am still curious to see who are the Masters of the Otomes not bound to the ruler of the country.
Most people here don't know Japanese language you know . The other Masters mentioned are, i think 'upper class' and 'royalty'. Forgot which episode though.
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Old 2006-03-16, 13:02   Link #93
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I guess my boredom was strong enough to generate so much discussion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant
Anyone who isn't a Coral or Pearl is a Meister. There is no room for anything else in the diagram.
Question again: Is Pillar written on the that diagram? (I cant read japanese)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant
The quote specifically mentioned that a graduated Otome is called a Meister. That's the bold area I highlighted.
Ah, but are those Otomes in Carlteya, graduates? We dont know, do we? They might even be dropouts (We aren't told if the nanomachines are removed from the body of someone who didnt graduate. In fact, the only thing we saw happen to Miya was that her GEM was dissolved.)

Also, with the somewhat "recent" attack on Guarderobe, who's to say that the survivors didnt evacuate to other countries such as Carlteya? And is it not possible that these "refugees" went to work for Carlteya as their Otome? Afterall, they are looking after them. Nothing in life is free.
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Old 2006-03-16, 13:51   Link #94
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Also, with the somewhat "recent" attack on Guarderobe, who's to say that the survivors didnt evacuate to other countries such as Carlteya? And is it not possible that these "refugees" went to work for Carlteya as their Otome?
Well, that doesn't seem plausible since the students in Garderobe cannot activate their robes without permission. They would be just as useless in a fight as Nao and Natsuki are now, unless given REMs in which case I doubt the cyborgs would refer to them as Otomes and we are back to square one.
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Old 2006-03-16, 14:42   Link #95
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As Matrim has already stated, the cyborgs referred to them as the country's otomes. Lumen did not seem surprised at the number of Otomes and simply referred to it as, "All of the country's otomes have gathered here."

Thus, they are otomes, not dropouts or any of that crap. You Eclipze are just making it more complex than it is.

Quote:
Its not stated anywhere or even hinted..
........

The headmaster of the Otome academy, she was schoolmates with Shizuru, Haruka and Mai. She is number II of the Five Columns (the 5 "strongest" Otome who pledge not to a specific Master but to Garderobe) and is known as the Ice Silver Crystal (氷雪の銀水晶 Hyōsetsu no Ginsuishō). It is strongly implied she and Shizuru are lovers. During her days as a student, she and Mai were rivals.


This was answered in the FAQs.

No offense really but it's common sense in fact that these 5 pillars are chosen by Shinso, the first Otome, to serve her. The Pillars ARE meisters because they serve a master and that master is Shinso which Sergay has stated. She is the master of the corals, pearls, and the Pillars. You'd think Shinso just goes and picks some random otome as her troops?

Quote:
Ah, but are those Otomes in Carlteya, graduates? We dont know, do we? They might even be dropouts (We aren't told if the nanomachines are removed from the body of someone who didnt graduate. In fact, the only thing we saw happen to Miya was that her GEM was dissolved.)
Does that make Chie a drop-out then? Chie's not going to be Yukino's otome.

Actually now that I think about it most of the questions can be answered by watching the show and taking a look at the facts.
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Old 2006-03-16, 16:33   Link #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matrim
It would have been nice of Sunrise to mention this in the actual series rather than on the site.
Ok, that does make my pearl guess pretty wrong, lol. I have no problem admitting that. Ok, so all of these otome were Meisters. I still stand by my opinion that these were awful fighters.
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Old 2006-03-16, 22:55   Link #97
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Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness
Does that make Chie a drop-out then? Chie's not going to be Yukino's otome.
Um....Chie is not a drop out, but she was going to serve under Haruka. But, does that make her a Meister? Because, using such a scenario, one can say that all those other "otomes" are in Chie's position: Not Meisters, but serve the country nonetheless.
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Old 2006-03-16, 23:09   Link #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eclipze
Um....Chie is not a drop out, but she was going to serve under Haruka. But, does that make her a Meister? Because, using such a scenario, one can say that all those other "otomes" are in Chie's position: Not Meisters, but serve the country nonetheless.
Well, she was gonna serve as 'Deputy'...I think that Chie was going to be Haruka's acknowledged replacement when Ealis gets a new prez, then Chie will become the new 'Topaz of the Jeweled Isles' ... but Haruka's colors will look wrong on Chie-kun...not to mention the entire 'ball n chain' weapon!
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Old 2006-03-17, 11:47   Link #99
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Episode 23 --> Mashiro does not get any harm while Mikoto is smashing Arika into some stones...
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Old 2006-03-17, 16:09   Link #100
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This is more of a missed opprotunity than anything - Mashiro talking to Natsuki about her 'deal' with Aswald to give them the technology they need to cure themselves and to live.

The entire Mai-Natsuki reunion - Natsuki makes it sound like she's been missing for a few hours rather than a few years... mrr, I feel as if I've been cheated out of something good.
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