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Old 2003-12-16, 00:18   Link #1
Fronzel
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Angel Sanctuary

I watched the anime, but was disappointed by the non-existent ending, and how the last episode really abandons discussion of Setsuna and Saraís icky love, which I thought was more interesting that all the angel and God stuff (though that was well-executed). Anyone read the manga? Is it good? Isnít it obscenely long? I should check myself, but has it be licensed?
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Old 2003-12-16, 00:24   Link #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fronzel
I watched the anime, but was disappointed by the non-existent ending, and how the last episode really abandons discussion of Setsuna and Saraís icky love, which I thought was more interesting that all the angel and God stuff (though that was well-executed). Anyone read the manga? Is it good? Isnít it obscenely long? I should check myself, but has it be licensed?

i read all of it and yes it is good.
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Old 2003-12-16, 00:28   Link #3
NoSanninWa
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The manga is good and also obscenely long. Well, actually it's on the short side of long with a mere 20 volumes. As you surmise it is licensed so you'll have to buy it.

It is rather... complicated. It is extremely involved with all the Angelic politics, but the "discussion of Setsuna and Sara?s icky love" is never abandoned. Their forbidden love remains a central issue all the way until the very end.
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Old 2003-12-16, 00:32   Link #4
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Good! Becuase once

Spoiler:



Meanwhile, I am reminded that I should read Paradise Lost. I even have it somewhere.
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Old 2004-02-14, 01:59   Link #5
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Are they gonna make another OVA to continue the plot line?
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Old 2004-12-14, 17:51   Link #6
Robin-sama
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Angel Sanctuary

Anybody read the manga?

Personally, I think that was one manga/anime they were not going to release in the states, or outside of Japan at all, oficially!
Setting that aside; I enjoyed the manga, and the animation isn't too bad either.
Anyone else like AS?
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Old 2004-12-14, 18:39   Link #7
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I have the entire collection of Angel Sanctuary (in Mandarin), although I'm wanting to sell it off because it's so heavy on text and also super Shoujo-ey... and I don't have much time to read it; although I skimmed through and just focused on the relationship of the two.

If you're referring to the incest that's preventing its international release, I think the theme of incest was actually diluted by the introduction of such a great multitude of other-worldly themes. Angels, gods, monsters, rebirth, and love rivals.. etc. There was no real social discussion about the brother-sister love relationship (save perhaps the first two books), and in the end I didn't see it *so* much of as an incestuous relationship than a regular one... That's what I thought.

I'm waiting for the day where I have loads of time and can read the manga more carefully.. or when I can offload them at a nice price.
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Old 2004-12-15, 20:27   Link #8
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I have the 20 volumes of manga too, and even if I lost a good part of my fascination for this manga some years ago, I plan to keep it for the time being, at last for the beautiful artwork in the first 14-16 volumes (later ones not being my taste >_< being more simply drawn than the georgeous shoujo-go-pre-raphealite or something like that of the first volumes) and the wicked characters (names ? I don't know, i would say Mad Hatter and Rociel, like every normally constituted person should ^^ ).

And as we are on the subject, how is the US version of the manga ?

A Count Cain TV series, *that* would be fun...

Quote:
Originally Posted by arias
There was no real social discussion about the brother-sister love relationship (save perhaps the first two books), and in the end I didn't see it *so* much of as an incestuous relationship than a regular one...
Completely agree with you.
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Old 2004-12-16, 07:51   Link #9
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I have been an Angel Sanctuary nut for the last two years and own both the OVA and the whole twenty volumes, the volumes in German. It is by far my favourite.

As reagards the "icky" love, I think there's nothing icky about it. Consider the following: How many love stories do you know - and yes, you can include real ones - where everything goes sideways because the people in question "can't understand their feelings" and so on and so forth. Cue the long winded, angsty whinging.
Angel Sanctuary is the exact opposite of that. Setsuna and Sara know exactly what their feelings are - and they are willing to act on them. They are willing to fight for their own joy, even if they can prevail only for a short time. There are two Shibboleths that have been traditionally used to bully people into not pursuing their happiness, God and Society, and Setsuna and Sara are willing to make a stand against both of them. Even if it means ostracism from the whole world, even if it means having to claw through hell itself, even if it means defying God himself they are willing to fight for their joy. And that earns my respect.
The fact that it is incest is secondary. It's not really important, not compared with that level of heroism.
This theme - individuality versus the collective - is continued throughout the whole series. The demons - the true demons, that is, Mad Hatter and so on - are what you might call "classic villains". They want to manipulate and kill people for their own ends. The Angels, that is, the ones like Sevothtarte on the other hand keep doing things for "the greater good" - and they are actually worse.
The primary virtue of the series is its intergrity. It follows the logic of its premises right through to the end - regardless of how many conventions get offended

Aside from that there is a great deal more that is worthy of interest. It has many interesting, complex characters. And the fact that some of them are very pretty doesn't hurt.
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Old 2004-12-16, 17:47   Link #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucio
I have been an Angel Sanctuary nut for the last two years and own both the OVA and the whole twenty volumes, the volumes in German. It is by far my favourite.

As reagards the "icky" love, I think there's nothing icky about it. Consider the following: How many love stories do you know - and yes, you can include real ones - where everything goes sideways because the people in question "can't understand their feelings" and so on and so forth. Cue the long winded, angsty whinging.
Angel Sanctuary is the exact opposite of that. Setsuna and Sara know exactly what their feelings are - and they are willing to act on them. They are willing to fight for their own joy, even if they can prevail only for a short time.
What a wonderful way of putting it. Everyone stops after pointing out that their love is forbidden. I have to admit that the way that they embrace their feelings is quite different from most anime and manga. They are even willing to throw away society in order to be true to themselves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucio
There are two Shibboleths that have been traditionally used to bully people into not pursuing their happiness, God and Society, and Setsuna and Sara are willing to make a stand against both of them.
Your use of the word "shibboleth" has a meaning I was previously unfamiliar with. Are you using "shibboleth" to mean an exclusionary group? Or is it intended to mean a code of ethics? In either case that isn't the meaning of the word as I know it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucio
Even if it means ostracism from the whole world, even if it means having to claw through hell itself, even if it means defying God himself they are willing to fight for their joy. And that earns my respect.
The fact that it is incest is secondary. It's not really important, not compared with that level of heroism.
The heroism of being willing to be immoral?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucio
This theme - individuality versus the collective - is continued throughout the whole series. The demons - the true demons, that is, Mad Hatter and so on - are what you might call "classic villains". They want to manipulate and kill people for their own ends. The Angels, that is, the ones like Sevothtarte on the other hand keep doing things for "the greater good" - and they are actually worse.
You should have pointed out that the demons are all individualists. They work only for their own goals. By contrast the angels, even the villianous ones, are fighting for their society. We really have two groups of villians. One group fights to oppress in the name of god and righteousness while the other group is simply out to destroy or grab what they want. Anarchy vs Oppression.

One could argue quite easily that Setsuna falls into the demon's camp because he is only out to fight for his own happiness. What truly makes him better?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucio
The primary virtue of the series is its intergrity. It follows the logic of its premises right through to the end - regardless of how many conventions get offended

Aside from that there is a great deal more that is worthy of interest. It has many interesting, complex characters. And the fact that some of them are very pretty doesn't hurt.
Yup, that's what I really liked most about this show. That and a plot that just keeps getting more complicated.
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Old 2004-12-18, 10:16   Link #11
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Quote:
Your use of the word "shibboleth" has a meaning I was previously unfamiliar with. Are you using "shibboleth" to mean an exclusionary group? Or is it intended to mean a code of ethics? In either case that isn't the meaning of the word as I know it.
What it means is that I am spent rather too much time reading Lovecraft. Seriously, what I meant could be equally well expressed by the terms "gargoyle" or "boogeyman". Something used to frighten people into line.


Quote:
The heroism of being willing to be immoral?
Define "immoral". To me the willingness to fight for your own happiness, for your highest values, come Hell or high water, the willingness to fight for your life - that is the essence of all good, all morality that has ever existed.

Quote:
You should have pointed out that the demons are all individualists. They work only for their own goals. By contrast the angels, even the villianous ones, are fighting for their society. We really have two groups of villians. One group fights to oppress in the name of god and righteousness while the other group is simply out to destroy or grab what they want. Anarchy vs Oppression.

One could argue quite easily that Setsuna falls into the demon's camp because he is only out to fight for his own happiness. What truly makes him better?
The following: While the demonic doctrine sacrifices others to the self, and the angelic doctrine demands the sacrifice of the self to others, Setsuna and Sara want neither.
The perfect example of the Angel's doctrine are Zaphikiel and Raziel, who believe that manipulation and deceit are fine, so long as they are willing to similarly be self-sacrificing, and so long as it serves "the greater good". Personally, I think those two are two steps shy of becoming Sevothtarte.

The demons live, as you say, in a kind of anarchy, where raw strength is the measure of surivival. As I said, they sacrifice others to themselves.

The key difference is that Setsuna and Sara - and, to a certain extent, Kurai and their closest supporters - do not want to either sacrifice their values to others, nor to sacrifice others values to them. They do not want to be slaves, nor masters. They want no part of the sacrificial doctrine - on either end. They wish to be left alone to find happiness and live their lives. They want freedom - and it is for that precise reason that they are caught between the fronts.

By and large, both demons and angels are equally evil, because they really two sides of the same coin of the doctrine of sacrifice. The only moral characters in the series are those that avoid the whole damn thing.
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Old 2004-12-19, 04:20   Link #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucio
Quote:
Your use of the word "shibboleth" has a meaning I was previously unfamiliar with. Are you using "shibboleth" to mean an exclusionary group? Or is it intended to mean a code of ethics? In either case that isn't the meaning of the word as I know it.
What it means is that I am spent rather too much time reading Lovecraft. Seriously, what I meant could be equally well expressed by the terms "gargoyle" or "boogeyman". Something used to frighten people into line.
Ah. The word you wanted was "Shoggoth." Shibboleth is a rather interesting word with a very different meaning. I'd define it for you, but it is beyond the scope of this topic and bound to create it's own discussion. Use google if you want to know about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucio
Quote:
The heroism of being willing to be immoral?
Define "immoral". To me the willingness to fight for your own happiness, for your highest values, come Hell or high water, the willingness to fight for your life - that is the essence of all good, all morality that has ever existed.
Now we're getting into the philosophy of morality and ethics. Morals are a code of behavor which is created by the society someone lives in. Ethics are the code of behavor one chooses for themselves. The important thing about ethics is that they are consistent so that the individual knows for himself what it means to fall into depravity. (Listen to what Mataichi says in Hundred Stories (AKA Requiem from the Darkness), while performing a deed, for an excellent soliloquy on the subject.)

Incidently I agree that it is important to fight for your life and beliefs, but if your beliefs contradict accepted values then it is still immoral. That's the whole point of the story. To create a situation where ethics demand that he do something immoral.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucio
Quote:
You should have pointed out that the demons are all individualists. They work only for their own goals. By contrast the angels, even the villianous ones, are fighting for their society. We really have two groups of villians. One group fights to oppress in the name of god and righteousness while the other group is simply out to destroy or grab what they want. Anarchy vs Oppression.

One could argue quite easily that Setsuna falls into the demon's camp because he is only out to fight for his own happiness. What truly makes him better?
The following: While the demonic doctrine sacrifices others to the self, and the angelic doctrine demands the sacrifice of the self to others, Setsuna and Sara want neither.
The perfect example of the Angel's doctrine are Zaphikiel and Raziel, who believe that manipulation and deceit are fine, so long as they are willing to similarly be self-sacrificing, and so long as it serves "the greater good". Personally, I think those two are two steps shy of becoming Sevothtarte.

The demons live, as you say, in a kind of anarchy, where raw strength is the measure of surivival. As I said, they sacrifice others to themselves.

The key difference is that Setsuna and Sara - and, to a certain extent, Kurai and their closest supporters - do not want to either sacrifice their values to others, nor to sacrifice others values to them. They do not want to be slaves, nor masters. They want no part of the sacrificial doctrine - on either end. They wish to be left alone to find happiness and live their lives. They want freedom - and it is for that precise reason that they are caught between the fronts.

By and large, both demons and angels are equally evil, because they really two sides of the same coin of the doctrine of sacrifice. The only moral characters in the series are those that avoid the whole damn thing.
In other words, Setsuna stands for the right of the individual to fight for his own truth and create his own understanding of good. The triumph of ethics over dogmatic morality.


PS. If anyone thinks that I made up these definitions of ethics and morality, I would suggest that they do some reading before they say so. In our society these words are unfortunately used interchangably, but they are actually quite different.
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Old 2006-04-15, 07:22   Link #13
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I just read angel sanctuary. I really amazing master piece. So ill pick up that old discussion:

No sannin got a point in differing moral from ethic. In fact i think its the whole point of this story to make the readers question values like moral. We get to see the currupted angel politics where there is noone even allowed to love, even though its the very nature of all angels demons and humans. It shows us how undefined morals are and how they differ in different cultures. So why is it that angels are not allowed to have children and to love? In fact all angels loving each other would be incest since al angels are born from the flesh of adam kademon as we learn in the end. Thats the reason for their children degenerations.
But the story shows us to doubt these morals. Setsuna and sara loving each other should be their business. No one is hurt by it but still everyone is agains it and taking away their happyness (the fact that their mother is hurt by it is only a cause of this very morals and not by their love itself). Instead of morals the author presents the heros own ethics with whom he should overcome those old useless morals. Its the all to commen theme of youth vs. adulthood. Ironically in his fight and struggle setsuna indeed hurts those friends and companions close to him. In the end the ultimate conclusion is not a revolution of those morals, but to live your live the way you want and not to let you be surpressed by those morals, but i guess its still some kind of a revolution.
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Old 2006-07-26, 02:21   Link #14
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Angel sanctuary manga

somebody red Angel sanctuary ? (the manga)
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Last edited by NoSanninWa; 2006-07-26 at 03:03. Reason: Threads merged. Please SEARCH before posting a new thread. It will keep you from annoying the moderators or making yourself look stupid!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 2006-07-26, 05:20   Link #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fronzel
I watched the anime, but was disappointed by the non-existent ending, and how the last episode really abandons discussion of Setsuna and Saraís icky love, which I thought was more interesting that all the angel and God stuff (though that was well-executed). Anyone read the manga? Is it good? Isnít it obscenely long? I should check myself, but has it be licensed?

XDDDD hell yes
the manga was kinda interesting
but the anime was pointless..
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Old 2006-07-26, 11:19   Link #16
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^ Not exactly pointless, since in my case it piqued the interest towards the original work, which was a whole load better. Or at least good enough for one to forgive the gayish aspects for the sake of the story. The ending was also pretty promising with Kurai promising to come back.

On the other hand, I can't understand why the author decided to give them a quick-ride back to Earth like they could be normal humans again. Setsuna had, in the end, all those six angel-wings and some unfathomable power, so naturally the return would had been impossible (interest from both angels and demons, their war, and so forth).
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Old 2006-07-26, 12:56   Link #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wordplay
^ Not exactly pointless, since in my case it piqued the interest towards the original work, which was a whole load better. Or at least good enough for one to forgive the gayish aspects for the sake of the story. The ending was also pretty promising with Kurai promising to come back.

On the other hand, I can't understand why the author decided to give them a quick-ride back to Earth like they could be normal humans again. Setsuna had, in the end, all those six angel-wings and some unfathomable power, so naturally the return would had been impossible (interest from both angels and demons, their war, and so forth).
Would you prefer they revert back to thier Angel Forms and have hot lesbian sex between Alexis and Gabriel

Now tha i think about it, i agree with you a 100% Hot lesbian sex FTW.
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Old 2006-07-26, 19:04   Link #18
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What do you mean by "lesbian sex?" It was Setsuna who had the power whereas Alexiel was just one of his previous incarnations. When the story ended, IIRC, the author left it completely blank as to what came of that power.

I can only presume he still retains it, so Kurai's return would definitely make sense beside the romance-affair too.
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Old 2006-08-11, 17:36   Link #19
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Angel Sanctuary Illustration Book

Hi everyone

I'm a huge fan of Angel sanctuary and I am thinking of buying an illustration book. I have found these two:
Angel Cage: http://www.animegamersusa.com/istar....6class%3DAB%26
Fallen: http://www.animegamersusa.com/istar....6class%3DAB%26

I just wonder if it's in english? Since I'm not so good at my japanese it would be a shame for me if I didn't understand a thing...
And have someone both of these books? which one is the best?

Hope for some answers.
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Old 2006-08-11, 17:44   Link #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Friera
Hi everyone

I'm a huge fan of Angel sanctuary and I am thinking of buying an illustration book. I have found these two:
Angel Cage: http://www.animegamersusa.com/istar....6class%3DAB%26
Fallen: http://www.animegamersusa.com/istar....6class%3DAB%26

I just wonder if it's in english? Since I'm not so good at my japanese it would be a shame for me if I didn't understand a thing...
And have someone both of these books? which one is the best?

Hope for some answers.
You need to edit your links. Can't open them.

That said, i doubt they are in english.
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