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Old 2006-02-19, 03:13   Link #1
Xellos-_^
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It is been popular lately to slam the USA on Human Rights but...

It is been popular lately to slam the USA on Human Rights but after reading this article and remembering the riots in France several months ago. Is Europe really that much of a better place for human rights then the USA? The US has it is shared problems but is seems Europe could use a bit of self clean as well.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe...reut/index.htm

With and the recent French riots exposing sides of France people haven't seen before just how much better is the various European countries better then the US in terms of human rights.l
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Old 2006-02-19, 04:01   Link #2
deathbygirl
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Hm, the link leads me to a "Page Not Found" error. Mind reconfirming that link?
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Old 2006-02-19, 07:58   Link #3
Pellissier
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Ohi ohi

http://snipurl.com/mopo

This is the article he was referring to.

I'm in Italy, actually, and the fuss about that sentence is still burning, inevitably, because that sentence was really an insult to common sense, like a sort of "allowing" abuses towards women. I was totally like "wth?" after having read that.

*Update* Anyway, later the Highest Ranks of Italian Court have admitted, going towards their minor "colleagues", the shamefulness of that sentence and not only that has been labeled as ineffective for the jurisprudence, it has also been recorded as perfect example on how a sentence should never be done.

Pratically, that sentence has been trashed and it won't apply nor here, nor there, nor never anywhere. It just hadn't a single reason to exist. That's all.
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Old 2006-02-19, 09:01   Link #4
Shay
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I guess nobody’s perfect. Except for me of course.
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Old 2006-02-19, 09:10   Link #5
Komataguri
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shay
I guess nobody’s perfect. Except for me of course.

*ahem*, You are perfect, Mr.Yelling and cussing at me for something I didn't do because you clicked the wrong MSN name?



Anyways, News stories like this make me giggle out of pity and joy, That America isn't the festering cauldron and the source of all stupidity that I once thought.



On a side note, Is it just me, or is Mussolini's granddaughter [ the pic on the right ] one ugly friggen bitch?
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Old 2006-02-19, 09:45   Link #6
Ending
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@ Xellos

Incidentally, US only recently refused -refused!- to close down Guantanamo -a prison where they do not respect any human rights and contracts they have made with UN. There they still keep dozens of people in hopes that they will be forgotten and dispatched in silence. It isn't even the only place where US show how hypocritical they are, after preaching for years about "human rights."

So I don't believe you can compare the crimes US is performing as we speak to a single case like this in EU. Whatever slamming they get, they deserve it like all other criminals.
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Old 2006-02-19, 09:59   Link #7
Sazelyt
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Unfortunately, the link is not working.

But, regarding your question, I believe the real face of Europe is not what it tries to show. They might be very good in protecting the right of their own European-origin people but that may not be the case with the foreigners/immigrants.

The nationalist views are on the rise and many of them do not like the immigrants. They are not doing what US is doing, but by not giving those people jobs, and separating between the original citizens and the foreigners, they might be creating a similar impact on those people.

Also, to be honest, especially France does not have a right to talk about what US is doing, especially after what they had done in Algeria (who knows maybe in other places). Regarding the army operations, what the European armies had done under UN command in the old Yugoslavia suggests that Europeans are not that innocent either.

But, in my opinion, US does not have a right to defend what they are doing either. You cannot justify your wrong-doings by giving example on other wrong-doings.
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Old 2006-02-19, 10:32   Link #8
JOJOS'STAR
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LOL this thread on France riot just turned into sexual crime. Anyway yeah American are aimed at cause they're a big influence around the world. All they do we see.
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Old 2006-02-19, 12:28   Link #9
Xellos-_^
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wirhe
@ Xellos

Incidentally, US only recently refused -refused!- to close down Guantanamo -a prison where they do not respect any human rights and contracts they have made with UN. There they still keep dozens of people in hopes that they will be forgotten and dispatched in silence. It isn't even the only place where US show how hypocritical they are, after preaching for years about "human rights."

So I don't believe you can compare the crimes US is performing as we speak to a single case like this in EU. Whatever slamming they get, they deserve it like all other criminals.
Nobdy is excusing what the US is doing but it is hypocratical of Europe to slam the US on human rights when thier own record isn't that much better. Not that Europe is the only ones doing this. The US is just as guilty of slam someone human rights abuse when they commiting human rights violations of thier own.
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Old 2006-02-19, 16:57   Link #10
Ending
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No one is a saint, but at least one can try to be better. Oh, did I mention UN asked to close Guantanamo a little while ago...? Guess I did, for I remember US answering with a firm "NO!"

Tell me, would it be better to stop critisizing and just allow those abused people to be forgotten? Perhaps EU should even take example from US: find a concentration camp, declare it "no-law zone", and then imprison some yanks by random. Keep them there for a decade or two to boot, force-fed and beaten regularly. Would that be the answer?
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Old 2006-02-19, 17:16   Link #11
Nightbat®
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It's not countries that create sickening situations: it's politicians

I for one lost faith in politicians
lying, decieving vultures that take no responsibility for their actions/decisions

the Irony is: trying to overthrow them makes you a terrorist
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Old 2006-02-19, 17:29   Link #12
Xellos-_^
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wirhe
No one is a saint, but at least one can try to be better. Oh, did I mention UN asked to close Guantanamo a little while ago...? Guess I did, for I remember US answering with a firm "NO!"
Didn't i just answer that question

Quote:
Tell me, would it be better to stop critisizing and just allow those abused people to be forgotten? Perhaps EU should even take example from US: find a concentration camp, declare it "no-law zone", and then imprison some yanks by random. Keep them there for a decade or two to boot, force-fed and beaten regularly. Would that be the answer?
A wiseman once said, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

Just my opinion, but if you are going to call someone else out for being dirty you better be sure you clean yourself. Otherwise you have no credibility and is a hypocrite.

As for the bunch at guantanamo bay, I agree they should be put on trial already. And no one has forgotten them least of all in the US. Theres a bunch of lawsuits already file by the ACLU and several organization speed up the process of either releasing them or put them on trial.

Edit: i just notice i got 2 neg rep points form this thread. I don't usually mind this sort thing since i don't pay attentation to it too much. but what gets me is if you are going to give to give someone a neg point be a man about it and at least sign it with your name. otherwise you are just a coward hiding behind the anonymity of rep point system here. Or better yet post why you don't like my posts and let everyone see whether it has merit.
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Old 2006-02-21, 07:22   Link #13
BriteDarkness
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Europe and the like criticize the US for one reason. The other guy's s*** always smells more than your own. That and the fact that it's always trendy to insult America, even if you don't have all the facts.
That said, I don't support certain actions taken by my country. I do, however, have some of the facts on things I support or do not support.
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Old 2006-02-24, 18:29   Link #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BriteDarkness
Europe and the like criticize the US for one reason. The other guy's s*** always smells more than your own. That and the fact that it's always trendy to insult America, even if you don't have all the facts.
That said, I don't support certain actions taken by my country. I do, however, have some of the facts on things I support or do not support.

the problem here is that you can't verify those facts
I'll apologise for my "Anti-American" opinion when I see those weapons of mass
destruction, when the US stops torturing Iraqi's, when I see all Iraqi's embrace
the US as their Saviour and right now it seems to me they're not better off
without Saddam


But understand that I'm not looking at the US citizens.
Unless you guys go on holiday to Cuba for some "family Iraqi torture".
I see no reason to hold 'the common man/women' responsible what is happening.
Hell, you can choose another senate/president and I'll bet it'll be "Same S***,
different day" -and not because the US citizens voted on the wrong guy(s)


You can slam on my country all you want
The Srebrenica Massacre, is a good example why bureaucrats in my country are morons.
Politicians wanting a pat on the back from the rest of the world, screwing up, but
not taking responsibilty



I may never have all or any of the facts, but i'll be damned if I'm not critical about
the stories they try to portray as "truth"

Only an idiot believes every word they tell him
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Old 2006-02-24, 23:42   Link #15
BriteDarkness
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I actually can verify the facts I do have. I'm not talking about questionable information about weapons of mass destruction that did not exist. I never believed that. You, sir, are obviously one of the people I was refering to. You did not have the facts straight about me and you attacked me. Unfortunately for you, it is not trendy to criticize me. Also note that being "anti-American" is different from being "anti-America" and both are different from being "anti-American government."
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Old 2006-02-25, 00:57   Link #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BriteDarkness
I actually can verify the facts I do have. I'm not talking about questionable information about weapons of mass destruction that did not exist. I never believed that. You, sir, are obviously one of the people I was refering to. You did not have the facts straight about me and you attacked me. Unfortunately for you, it is not trendy to criticize me.
Well *obviously*...

"Questionable information"? The whole US intel dept. was convinced Iraq had WMD's
and was going to use them, Prez Bush came on TV and told us that!
demanding the rest of the world should take action dragging brittain along in the ride

Now you're telling me that that wasn't true?
Tell me where "I" am in the wrong here to be critical about "proven truths"
that still aren't proven


it's common sense to be critical, looks more like it's trendy to play the victim



Quote:
Also note that being "anti-American" is different from being "anti-America" and both are different from being "anti-American government."
Nope, it's called 'semantics"
I say Potato,...
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Old 2006-02-25, 01:29   Link #17
BriteDarkness
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Again, you assume that I am my government. I never said it was wrong for you to criticize my government for what they did wrong. It is wrong for you to attack me over their mistaken information. Information that I already told you I never believed. You need to learn how to read. The thing that did not exist is the WMDs. The questionable report was about WMDs that did not exist. I suggest you verify your information before criticizing someone. You apparently do not, because all this information was in my previous post. And you appear to be anti-American rather than anti-America or anti-American government. Need I remind you that I did not invade Iraq?
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Old 2006-02-25, 08:12   Link #18
Ending
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@ Nightbat®

Remember that they chose their government and thus Bush still represents the nation in his second term. You really can't ignore the people behind him.
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Old 2006-02-25, 09:41   Link #19
Jinto
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No country in this world has a clean slate.
But they should work together on the problems they have.
That inlcudes a dialogue about the nuisances in these countries.

But a dialogue is better be done by diplomats, because the national pride of a country's citizens is a very sensitive matter.
Accusing each other with polemic arguments (like it is done in the yellow press), is not very helpful when you are trying to find a solution that could remove nuisances.

( I'ld criticise the Bush administration, instead of americans in general -because afaik Bush did not win the elections with 100% of the votes-
I.e. the Iraq conflict is imo a result of a not very thought through war politic. Iraq is not WW2 germany, where you can invade and free the people from the nazis, so they can freely rebuild a democracy. Most of the people in the middle east are not ready for a solid democracy, because they are often undereducated (indoctrined with antidemocratic propaganda) or just too poor to realy live in a society peacefully -anger usually has many reasons, we often only see what catalyses this anger, namely propaganda.
I was predicting this exact outcome of the war before it started... when I can do this, why can't politicians with their many specialized helpers?
We have not enough resources, to build up afghanistan and iraq now. But only in wealthy societies democracy is possible. History teachers can tell stories about poor countries being caught up into corruption/fundamentalism/dictatorship/medieval governance tactics, while only the rich countries had a chance to establish solid democraties - that does not mean wealthines is a guarantor for a solid democracy, its just one important necessity.
The attitude to say lets start a war and see what happens afterwards is wrong in my oppinion. The postwar problem solving must be the most important part when there is a planning to invade another country. If there is not a realistic chance to make things better for the people, why start a war?

This part is someway Off topic, but meant to address a specific problem without using a lone polemic line. I am not a diplomat however...)

Last edited by Jinto; 2006-02-25 at 10:48.
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Old 2006-02-25, 10:21   Link #20
Sazelyt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wirhe
@ Nightbat®

Remember that they chose their government and thus Bush still represents the nation in his second term. You really can't ignore the people behind him.
If people are continously exposed to wrong information and information manipulated by the Government, then you cannot exactly blame the people behind the administration. We have observed quite a few times that the Government has control over the media. If that is the case, and the people are supposed to believe what they are told, then after some time that becomes the reality for them. And it might become highly difficult to change those opinions later on. This is what I have observed from my discussions with my American friends (that support Bush).

I agree to one of the statements above: people around the world that do not like America actually do not like the Government policies. That may not be the case for their people. The single example I can give is my country. America had a very huge likeability index when they helped capture a terrorist leader that Turkey has been trying to capture. There was also the Clinton effect (not the scandals but his likeable personality and sympathic behaviors). Of course, if the policies that hurt people last quite long time then the direction of unliking can turn also towards the people.

The simplest example is Iraq. If America had seeked help from UN after capturing Saddam, despite the lies they used to enter Iraq, they would have overcome the initial critics. And they would have prevented the terrorists gaining so much ground there. They would have avoided opening the Pandora's box. But, unfortunately, it seems to be too late now.
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