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Old 2006-10-15, 15:21   Link #2141
ujiuji
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Thanks to everyone to your replies. You've given me some good thoughts to ponder. As I said in my first post my intention was, in indirect reply to Kaoru Chujo's post #2140, to point out a few things that put me off when I first saw them and might put off others. What I said there doesn't represent my final view or even necessarily my current one. For instance the fan service only really bothered me in the first episode. The post was more of a snapshot of my reactions to the first ten episodes. Again, since that post I've watched episode eleven which partly answers my problems with Kaimu's antics in episode six. But that does not invalidate the purpose of the original post which was, to repeat, to point out things that struck a wrong note when first seen, without benefit of hindsight. Matrim's point that Kaimu & Parietta were drunk at the time makes perfect sense without the need for hindsight, I should have thought of that, thanks. Fignae's suggestion of the cathartic nature of the "play" is also a very good point.

I would like to answer a few of the other points raised however.

Spoiler for More long-winded ramblings:


As for Saint-Exupéry, Simon and Kaoru Chujo, I was reading some of the things people have been writing about Simoun's attitude to childhood and adulthood; while trying to not get spoiled, thanks everyone for using those tags; and wondered if they may be a complement or counterpoint to his ideas in The Little Prince. Then there's the whole pilot thing & his somewhat mysterious death.

Anyway, my eyestrain will come back if I go on like this. Mata ne!

Last edited by ujiuji; 2006-10-15 at 15:26. Reason: Punctuation + spoilered for length.
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Old 2006-10-15, 16:19   Link #2142
Matrim
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As for Aeru, well it would be good to know a little background or have some hint as to why she is so gung-ho and apparently bloodthirsty at first. Liking characters other people think are obnoxious is a speciality of mine, just a tiny hint of motivation, please.
The problem lies with the fact that Aaeru is mostly a favourite of the fans and not exactly thought of as obnoxious so your trick might not work. Anyway, I don't know if it was mentioned recently in the thread but Aaeru is very, very motivated to remain a Sibylla. The best way to do that is to win more battles which she does in an extremely straightforward manner that's typical of her. So basically the ends justify the means.

As I said, Mamiina just lost it. It was like a peasant marrying the most beautiful and desirable princess he (or she) could have imagined, only to find out she wants to have nothing to do with him and prefers someone who is not even that special at first glance. It was a fit of madness that does not have much to do with the real character of Mamiina. Whether such temporary madness is realistic or not, I am competent enough to discuss. But I am pretty sure Mamiina wanted to kill Aaeru,

Quote:
Thanks to everyone to your replies. You've given me some good thoughts to ponder.
Likewise, this thread needed a bit more criticims to the series, I now see some events in the first episodes in a bit different light because of your points.
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Old 2006-10-15, 18:42   Link #2143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ujiuji View Post
Spoiler for Blue Seed, Gokujou Seitokai and veering off topic:
Spoiler:


Quote:
Originally Posted by ujiuji View Post
As for Aeru, well it would be good to know a little background or have some hint as to why she is so gung-ho and apparently bloodthirsty at first. Liking characters other people think are obnoxious is a speciality of mine, just a tiny hint of motivation, please. (This is a still a comment for the early episodes, she's growing on me).
Spoiler:

Last edited by warainagara; 2006-10-15 at 23:31. Reason: for second comment
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Old 2006-10-15, 18:55   Link #2144
FatPianoBoy
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Originally Posted by ujiuji View Post
If she did not really intend to kill Aeru, stating that as her intention seems an unwise move!
Actually, I'm pretty sure Mamiina didn't really want to kill Aaeru, now that I really think about it. Warning someone that you're going to kill them as you're struggling to do so isn't the way to accomplish that goal. Instead, I think Mamiina was hoping to hear Aaeru say something like: "Okay, I'll give up on Neviril; just knock it off!" after which she would have stopped trying to strip Aaeru in midair.
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Old 2006-10-15, 19:09   Link #2145
Matrim
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I don't think so, Mamiina just followed the cliche for a villain character, namely - always tell your victims your intentions so they can stop you easily. Seriously, I think it's not uncommon to tell someone you are going to kill him/her just before doing so. Especially when you are driven by a fit of madness like Mamiina. And of course, if she hadn't told Aaeru this the drama of the scene would have been reduced because few viewers would have deduced that ripped clothes would mean a fall and death.
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Old 2006-10-15, 20:35   Link #2146
FatPianoBoy
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But Mamiina isn't a Gundam cliche villian character.
Plus, why would she keep telling Aaeru to give up on Neviril while trying to kill her? If she succeeds, it won't matter what Aaeru's intentions were
She may have been going crazy, but even crazy people have a certain logic to them.
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Old 2006-10-16, 01:28   Link #2147
IchiKyo
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parody time
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Old 2006-10-16, 03:13   Link #2148
yononaka
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parody time
Made me smile

Anyway, I had this thought. If Simoun were licensed, I think there would only be an infinitesimal chance that the US company would dub the men with female voices. How would you feel about that change? I mean it'd probably do away with one of the stumbling blocks in terms of weirding the audience out, but it'd also do away with an element (at least some of) you guys seem to consider important for the show. So, would you be willing to sacrifice that bit of authenticity(?) for the sake of (potentially) more popularity?

Personally, I think it would be a good thing. While I'm a big fan of the Japanese practice of women commonly providing many of the "kinder gentler" type male voices, I thought that taking to the extremes of Simoun came off much too gimmicky. And before anyone brings in something like men playing women in Shakespeare's times , I think that's different because if women played Simoun's men in live action, there would inevitably be some additional feminineness to the physical characteristics that would make the half-feminine voices feel more appropriate. Whereas in anime form you just see a man but hear a woman, and the disconnect is therefore bigger. (I'm talking about the men who looked like men, not those who still had boobs )

Also, during the forecasting before the characters chose their gender, did anyone consider that at least some of the picks were going to be made based on which seiyuu could more convincingly pull off a masculine voice? (I'm not a seiyuu expert, so maybe I'm off base here.) It seemed to me that a number of people were surprised by some of the choices, so might this explain them better? I don't remember if this was ever discussed.

P.S. atosaki: I wasn't disturbed, I just don't like to have my actions mischaracterized.
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Old 2006-10-16, 07:26   Link #2149
JiCi
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I guess it wouldn't hurt... as long as they do not do so for Waporif. Since the whole changing process is gradual, it would logical to keep the girl's voice at first, progressively change to a deeper voice and at the end put a normal male voice.

Speaking of English dub, I'm curious about the characters' names translations. How would it be ?
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Old 2006-10-16, 08:02   Link #2150
Matrim
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Plus, why would she keep telling Aaeru to give up on Neviril while trying to kill her? If she succeeds, it won't matter what Aaeru's intentions were
Because Mamiina subconsciously knew Aaeru wouldn't die so easily by virtue of being a main character. She told Aaeru to give up but I doubt she expected her to do so, actually she started trying to rip her clothes even before telling her the reason. And certainly, even gripped by madness Mamiina was bound to realise that even if Aaeru had promised such a thing under the threat of death, it wouldn't mean a thing once she let her go.

Quote:
Anyway, I had this thought. If Simoun were licensed, I think there would only be an infinitesimal chance that the US company would dub the men with female voices. How would you feel about that change?
I couldn't care less really, no way I am going to watch Simoun dubbed, it has an absolutely stellar seiyuu cast whose work will probably be butchered by the dub, plus I am so used to the Japanese voices by now. I have very little experience with English dubs but it seems obvious that female voice actors should be a lot less used to voicing male characters than their japanese counterparts so it might be better to leave this to some male talent. That said, most men in Simoun do look quite feminine, some funny disprepancies between the voice and the appearance seem inevitable.
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Old 2006-10-16, 10:58   Link #2151
FatPianoBoy
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Originally Posted by Matrim View Post
I couldn't care less really, no way I am going to watch Simoun dubbed, it has an absolutely stellar seiyuu cast whose work will probably be butchered by the dub, plus I am so used to the Japanese voices by now.
Indeed; not to mention the little nuances of male and female conjugations and speech idiosyncracies (ore-onna, for example) that just plain don't translate into English. That adds a lot to the characters and the show as a whole.
Even if the English cast pulls off another Cowboy Bebop and they're all female, they won't be able to reproduce this part.
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Old 2006-10-16, 12:03   Link #2152
yononaka
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Based on what you two (Matrim and FatPianoBoy) are saying, it seems like the chances of the dub audience (i.e. the mainstream majority) being able to fully appreciate the show are remote even if they wanted to?

My question wasn't about whether you would listen to the dub because most of the AS clientele probably wouldn't. Regular people obviously would, though. So if you want Simoun to gain a more sizable audience, IMO not caring about how the dub is done isn't really an option (more so than with your average show, I'd say).
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Old 2006-10-16, 13:08   Link #2153
FatPianoBoy
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Originally Posted by yononaka View Post
Based on what you two (Matrim and FatPianoBoy) are saying, it seems like the chances of the dub audience (i.e. the mainstream majority) being able to fully appreciate the show are remote even if they wanted to?

My question wasn't about whether you would listen to the dub because most of the AS clientele probably wouldn't. Regular people obviously would, though. So if you want Simoun to gain a more sizable audience, IMO not caring about how the dub is done isn't really an option (more so than with your average show, I'd say).
Well, what I was saying about with masculine and feminine speech would be lost even on people watching the sub unless they understood Japanese on a deeper level than the typical 'sugoi, oishii, baka' knowledge of most anime fans, so it doesn't really apply to the mainstream demographic. I was completely missing your point and just commenting on whether I would enjoy the dub

Of course I'd like for the dub to be well done. There are some things that I watch dubbed simply because the dub is so good (Evangelion, GITS, R.O.D), so I don't hate dubs by any means. I'd rather they keep an all-female cast, since that fact would at least give the show notoriety ("Hey, have you seen Simoun?" "Oh, isn't that that one show where all the guys have girls' voices?"), because at this point it doesn't seem that many people even know it exists.
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Old 2006-10-16, 14:01   Link #2154
Kaoru Chujo
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The idea of dubbing Simoun makes me run screaming from the room. But dubs in general really turn me off, so this isn't that much worse than normal. Sure, a lot would be lost, but that's true of any almost any anime. I think there's so much there that even a somewhat impaired Simoun would be good.

EDIT: I just blocked out the idea of using male voices entirely. No, no, a thousand times no! But Simoun would still be good if they did, as long as they didn't make them too deep. I'm not sure if dubbed anime use female voices for males now or not. If they do, there's no reason they can't for Simoun, too.
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Last edited by Kaoru Chujo; 2006-10-16 at 21:41.
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Old 2006-10-16, 19:12   Link #2155
fignae
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Originally Posted by yononaka View Post
Anyway, I had this thought. If Simoun were licensed, I think there would only be an infinitesimal chance that the US company would dub the men with female voices. How would you feel about that change?
Can't respond to that dispassionately. Simoun showed me seiyuu I'd never really listened to before, and I ended the episode journey feeling attached to every single voice in there. I loved those reactions surrounding the show when it begun, loved how it challenged conventional fanboy notions of the division between male and female (the energy is like the usual female seiyuu voicing male character, reversed, that is, the "Trap-chan" effect), and it's such a crucial part of the show for me I--

Right. Would it garner more eyeballs? We'd need to hear from those who were uncomfortable with the voicing choices. Anyway, something I wasn't expecting to see and nearly skipped over yesterday:



Animedia, Niino Michi (Aaeru)

Editing to add: I call it "daring", not "gimmicky"; and think this "disconnect" is the whole point.

Last edited by fignae; 2006-10-17 at 00:07.
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Old 2006-10-16, 22:59   Link #2156
kauldron26
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looking at how many posts are in this thread, i was thinking of jumping on this series... are the fansubs complete?? because i dont want to get into it, and then torture myself waiting for weeks for completion.

Is the anime really that good, to warrant over 2000 posts to a relatively new show?
i hope so.
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Old 2006-10-16, 23:05   Link #2157
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looking at how many posts are in this thread, i was thinking of jumping on this series... are the fansubs complete?? because i dont want to get into it, and then torture myself waiting for weeks for completion.

Is the anime really that good, to warrant over 2000 posts to a relatively new show?
i hope so.
I've been watching it over the past few days and it's pretty good. The fansubs are done... but some of the later episodes are taking forever to download.
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Old 2006-10-16, 23:18   Link #2158
FatPianoBoy
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Don't take our word or the post count as proof of this show. Just watch it and judge for yourself. It seems that just about everyone's mileage varies when they watch this show, since it requires a very personal connection to really enjoy. Best when marathoned.

1-16 are hardsubbed by Simoun-fans. The rest (17-26) you have to download the raw file (they're all on isohunt) and a temporary softsub file to watch, which isn't as much of a hassle as it sounds.
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Old 2006-10-16, 23:32   Link #2159
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My main problem with this series is the lack of a cohearent story. i stop watching half way but keep up with wrex's blog but i still havn't figure out what the story was about or the entire war for that matter. I love the music, the yuri was a plus, the pretty pictures were good as ere the characters but the lack of a real storyline and background on the setting kill this anime for me.
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Old 2006-10-16, 23:42   Link #2160
yononaka
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Originally Posted by kauldron26 View Post
Is the anime really that good, to warrant over 2000 posts to a relatively new show?
As far as the post count in particular is concerned, this and this may put it in perspective. (Since I took time to work the numbers, may as well pimp it again I'm not talking about the series comparison, just the "top heaviness" thing).

As FPB said, just about everyone's mileage varies. Mine varies a lot, which is why everyone in this thread loves me But those who love Simoun, really love it, so you can hope that you'll fall on that side.

Edit:
Quote:
Originally Posted by fignae View Post
Right. Would it garner more eyeballs? We'd need to hear from those who were uncomfortable with the voicing choices.
It may or may not actually do it, but I'd expect marketing people to consider dubbing all men with women's voices a liability for the US market. (Unless Simoun were positioned as a niche product from the get-go.)

Last edited by yononaka; 2006-10-16 at 23:55.
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