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Old 2007-11-25, 02:37   Link #2701
aniforever
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so i started watching this anime yesterday and managed to finish it about 3 hrs ago. took a dinner break and started to read this forum. I think toward the last couple of pages of post I've read it's mostly written by darthfury so i guess i'll reply with my thoughts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darthfury78 View Post
“In my honest opinion, gender selection should be left up to Mother Nature as the child is being conceived. I believe that this is the direct root cause of the problem.”

“The Eri storyline is a good example of a forced approach of this subject matter”

“In real life, when it comes to transgender, a very small number of those who opt for this procedure are women. Men make up the majority of cases when it comes to this issue.”
um i don't think so and it's a main bases to this anime. the choices you have to make and the choices others make for you. first off i think the reason Erii was crying was because she finally realized that she's now an adult and can no longer fly the Sibylla and regret going. I don't know why you were so caught up with the whole Erii/Erif situation since it went by so fast. I mean most of your post reference Eri/f and all the wrongdoings the creator did to her.

Now if you want to take the route of she being force to pick the male gender against her will then doesn't that go against what you said about leaving it up to mother nature? I mean mother nature forces a gender upon you without your say in the matter either so how is that better? at least with the spring people are given a chance at choosing for themselves what they want.

there are more male to female transgender because it's easier for male to become female. the process for female to male is extremely hard which i won't get into details but let's just say one must sacrifice a lot to become male.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darthfury78 View Post
Here a thought that crossed my mind for a revised Simoun. Rather than to confirm a gender to the girl, the Spings could be used as a ceremony to confirm adulthood of both boys and girls. Or the transition from childhood to adulthood. The people are born either male of female. But at 17 years old, they must go to the Springs to become adults.

This revised concept would be acceptable to viewers and non-viewers alike. And it might get more viewers to watch the series without bring turned off by the transgendered issues that plagued the series. Any comments to my suggestion?
ceremony to confirm adulthood? that would be like watching sweet 16 or quinceanera, how original would that be. the reason i love anime is that each anime is different and aren't afraid of being outside the box. plus how do you define being an adult really? so once they hit the spring they start growing hair in different places or become sexually arouse? but wait that normally happens before people are even 17 so what is left to do at the Spring?

You keep saying how Simoun is plagued with transgendered issues and that's why they aren't as popular, but from what i see this anime is pretty popular. It might not be as popular as Bleach or Naruto but it's still unique and attracts a lot of people. I believe there are different variables that lie within the reason Simoun isn't extremely popular but you shouldn't put all the blame on the transgender aspect of the anime.

I seriously didn't start watching this anime until now was b/c 1 i was busy with school and work (note the thanksgiving holiday so i finally got to watch it) and 2 because the names were too hard to remember and even pronounce. I mean Naruto, Sakura, Sasuke vs. Aaeru, Neviril, Paraietta. That's what distracted me from watching it since the beginning but i'm really glad i finally got to watch this great anime. seriously i have never seen an anime with so much girl x girl kissing before. if i weren't living at home i'll buy the whole serie just for collection purposes.
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Old 2007-11-25, 03:08   Link #2702
aniforever
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Originally Posted by darthfury78 View Post
I believe that Paraietta wanted to become a MALE because she was in love with Nevil. Since Nevil rejected Paraietta, this allowed her to re-evaluate herself. Thus she went with a gender that suited her real feelings on the inside. In addition, Paraietta no longer had anyone to protect but herself. So all this time, she hid her true indentity within a Male persona that she had maintained for so long until Nevil rejected her. In the end, Paraietta was quite happy as a female. For her, it took a huge weight off her chest as she was free to be herself. Frankly, Paraietta has always wanted to be a Female. But she was willing to give up her own happiness for Nevil.
i guess i kinda agree with you. Paraietta wanted to be a man because she wanted to protect Neviril. After talking to Alti she finally understood that you can't be strong for someone else but both have to be strong to be together. Through the course of the anime i think she finally realize that you don't need to be a guy to protect a girl a girl can protect a girl. though i personally think paraietta is the one who needs the protecting since alot of times she's emotionally unstable and uncertain of herself. I guess at the end she just wants to be strong for herself.

on a side note this simoun engulfs so much variety of love/relationships. just to list:

1. Amuria x Aaeru x Neviril - even though they didn't go to the spring they'll still girls so this one is girl x girl.
2. Alti x Kaimu - sibling love/incest
3. Dominūra x Limone - depends on some it can go either way: mother/daughter love or just older woman/young girl love.
4. Mamiina x Rōdoreamon - girl x girl love divided by status
5. Anubituf x Guragief - male x male love
6. Wapōrif x Morinas - male x female love
7. everyone else - either unknown or just a general love for others.

Last edited by aniforever; 2007-11-25 at 03:28.
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Old 2007-11-25, 05:47   Link #2703
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Oh boy... From the ending credits of the first episode...Roatreamon? Hahaha!

I wish they'd done Rōdreamon or Lōdreamon. Since they put an 'a' instead of the long o given to Wapōrif, I guess they put a 't' so that it wouldn't start with "Road". Or maybe I'm putting too much thought into it, and they just pulled letters from a hat.

Regardless, I'm happy to have the first R1 DVD for a series I thought I'd have to save up an eternity for $$$ R2 prices. I ended up watching all of the first episode even though I only meant to look up the name for now. I know I'm only repeating what's been said before, but it really is much better on rewatch, and that's my third.
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Old 2007-11-25, 12:04   Link #2704
Iskandar Taib
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Originally Posted by Conri View Post
Oh boy... From the ending credits of the first episode...Roatreamon? Hahaha!

I wish they'd done Rōdreamon or Lōdreamon. Since they put an 'a' instead of the long o given to Wapōrif, I guess they put a 't' so that it wouldn't start with "Road". Or maybe I'm putting too much thought into it, and they just pulled letters from a hat.
I must say, the first time I heard "Rodreamon", the first association that came to mind (and I'll bet, probably to many in Japan) was "Blue Space Cat".



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Old 2007-11-25, 12:11   Link #2705
darthfury78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aniforever View Post
so i started watching this anime yesterday and managed to finish it about 3 hrs ago. took a dinner break and started to read this forum. I think toward the last couple of pages of post I've read it's mostly written by darthfury so i guess i'll reply with my thoughts.



um i don't think so and it's a main bases to this anime. the choices you have to make and the choices others make for you. first off i think the reason Erii was crying was because she finally realized that she's now an adult and can no longer fly the Sibylla and regret going. I don't know why you were so caught up with the whole Erii/Erif situation since it went by so fast. I mean most of your post reference Eri/f and all the wrongdoings the creator did to her.

Now if you want to take the route of she being force to pick the male gender against her will then doesn't that go against what you said about leaving it up to mother nature? I mean mother nature forces a gender upon you without your say in the matter either so how is that better? at least with the spring people are given a chance at choosing for themselves what they want.

there are more male to female transgender because it's easier for male to become female. the process for female to male is extremely hard which i won't get into details but let's just say one must sacrifice a lot to become male.



ceremony to confirm adulthood? that would be like watching sweet 16 or quinceanera, how original would that be. the reason i love anime is that each anime is different and aren't afraid of being outside the box. plus how do you define being an adult really? so once they hit the spring they start growing hair in different places or become sexually arouse? but wait that normally happens before people are even 17 so what is left to do at the Spring?

You keep saying how Simoun is plagued with transgendered issues and that's why they aren't as popular, but from what i see this anime is pretty popular. It might not be as popular as Bleach or Naruto but it's still unique and attracts a lot of people. I believe there are different variables that lie within the reason Simoun isn't extremely popular but you shouldn't put all the blame on the transgender aspect of the anime.

I seriously didn't start watching this anime until now was b/c 1 i was busy with school and work (note the thanksgiving holiday so i finally got to watch it) and 2 because the names were too hard to remember and even pronounce. I mean Naruto, Sakura, Sasuke vs. Aaeru, Neviril, Paraietta. That's what distracted me from watching it since the beginning but i'm really glad i finally got to watch this great anime. seriously i have never seen an anime with so much girl x girl kissing before. if i weren't living at home i'll buy the whole serie just for collection purposes.

Thanks for the kind comments. Which regards to Eri, I assumed that she went to the Springs because she was under a lot of pressure from her family to go and pick the MALE gender. However, I believe that she never wanted to go to the Springs to begin with. If she had the will to choose which gender she wanted with no regard to economic opportunities and instead listened to her heart: The Female Gender would have been her choice because Eri loved being female.

I feel that the flow of Episode 2 was forced upon the viewers to show the function of the Springs and what the effects are to a girl who is given a MALE gender, whether she had chosen it or not. Personally this episode could have been made into a 2-Part feature that would retain Eri's character but pass this process on to her sister. That would have been quite interesting to see what her sister went through and how it had affected her.

I know all too well about transgenderism. And you're quite correct that the majority that undergoes this process are Men rather than Women. Simoun could have easily fit in the yaoi (Gay) category. But it might not have worked out very well. So they chose the Yuri Category instead to explain the process.

I am not saying that Simoun is a bad show. But I feel that it might have been much more receptive without it by the general anime audience. This is just my opinion: Most folks don't like the idea of Girls becoming Guys. Once they see that, they'll stop watching no matter how good the series is.

Personally, Simoun has a lot of potential to be one of the greatest Yuri animes of all time without the transgendered tagline. I have another idea of how the Springs should have been used. But I'll leave that for another time.
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Old 2007-11-25, 12:46   Link #2706
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Quote:
But I feel that it might have been much more receptive without it by the general anime audience.
I think I said this already, but I'll say it again nonetheless: screw the general audience. Most people don't watch anime to begin with. And, of those who do, an enormous percentage only focuses on archetypal shounen series. Would you argue that every series should follow the shounen series' basic premises in order to attract more viewers?

Screw the general audience. Trans-genderism and gender choosing is a key aspect of the storyline and of the point the show wants to make. If people can't understand it, then there's little reason for them to watch it.
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Old 2007-11-25, 15:05   Link #2707
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iskandar Taib View Post
I must say, the first time I heard "Rodreamon", the first association that came to mind (and I'll bet, probably to many in Japan) was "Blue Space Cat".

http://jubilee2004april30.blog.ocn.n...s/doraemon.bmp
Neat. That never even occurred to me, I think because I've only seen one episode of Doraemon, and even if you chop off the "Ro", they aren't completely the same. A choice based on that for the R1 audience would be kind of strange since Doraemon never really came over here. I suppose that would be the licensor deciding based on their own associations.
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Old 2007-11-25, 15:39   Link #2708
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darthfury78 View Post
Personally this episode could have been made into a 2-Part feature that would retain Eri's character but pass this process on to her sister. That would have been quite interesting to see what her sister went through and how it had affected her.
*blink* Eri has a sister?

As a side note, regardless of any transgender issues, Simoun could have had stronger ratings if it had a stronger opening. This isn't to say that it was a bad opening, it was just confusing and not entirely engaging. I watched the first episode of Evangelion and I was hooked. I watched the first episode of Kaleido Star and even though I didn't get the series until almost two years later, I totally remembered it the entire time and ended up getting the series. I watched the first episode of Simoun and I was like huh? Okay, lots of yuri, evidently, but plot? what? wait, did they just kill of a main character? WHAT'S GOING ON. Why is there a yellow-haired mickey mouse flying in?

Also, I don't think it helped that Simoun looked like a plotless yurifest, but had a story more intricate and thought-provoking than 90% of anime.
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Old 2007-11-25, 18:15   Link #2709
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Conri View Post
Oh boy... From the ending credits of the first episode...Roatreamon? Hahaha!

I wish they'd done Rōdreamon or Lōdreamon. Since they put an 'a' instead of the long o given to Wapōrif, I guess they put a 't' so that it wouldn't start with "Road". Or maybe I'm putting too much thought into it, and they just pulled letters from a hat.

Regardless, I'm happy to have the first R1 DVD for a series I thought I'd have to save up an eternity for $$$ R2 prices. I ended up watching all of the first episode even though I only meant to look up the name for now. I know I'm only repeating what's been said before, but it really is much better on rewatch, and that's my third.
No! They did change her name! Ah, I agree, I would have been happy with either Rodoreamon or Lodoreamon. I wonder where they got Rotraemon though? Anyway I'm still looking forward to getting a copy of the first volume when I have the chance.
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Old 2007-11-25, 20:52   Link #2710
Iskandar Taib
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Originally Posted by aniforever View Post
so i started watching this anime yesterday and managed to finish it about 3 hrs ago. took a dinner break and started to read this forum. I think toward the last couple of pages of post I've read it's mostly written by darthfury so i guess i'll reply with my thoughts.
Let's just say a certain someone has a bee in his bonnet about certain characters and issues, and most of us don't give a darn about it.
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Old 2007-11-25, 20:55   Link #2711
Iskandar Taib
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Originally Posted by Conri View Post
Neat. That never even occurred to me, I think because I've only seen one episode of Doraemon, and even if you chop off the "Ro", they aren't completely the same. A choice based on that for the R1 audience would be kind of strange since Doraemon never really came over here. I suppose that would be the licensor deciding based on their own associations.
I think you most often come across these "-eamon" and "-aemon" names in historical sagas and samurai movies. And they're male given names, usually for someone of high birth.
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Old 2007-11-25, 21:02   Link #2712
darthfury78
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Originally Posted by dauthik View Post
I don't think it helped that Simoun looked like a plotless yurifest, but had a story more intricate and thought-provoking than 90% of anime.
The series could still retain its intricate and thought-provoking storyline as it was progressing along. Frankly, it might have been much easier to have everyone in Simoun all Female, young and old. And the Springs could be used as ceremony to allow the Lesbian Couple to have children. And no, I am not refering to one of the females becoming a hermophodite in order to do so.

I can envision Simoun taking place on a planet that is populated by Females who can govern for themselves as strong characters. The main characters in the series could have started out as children and gradually make them growup into adults engaging in more complex situations, such as Harry Potter. This could have set the standard for the Yuri content. But the creators missed out on that opportunity to take it to that level. We might have seen an extension of the initial 26 episodes that Simoun got into more than 50, or simply become a regular season that could go on into OVAs and movies. When appropriate, use the Hentai content for a few episodes that could be release as specials that could not be placed on the air. Is that unrealistic?
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Old 2007-11-25, 21:45   Link #2713
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Originally Posted by dauthik View Post
As a side note, regardless of any transgender issues, Simoun could have had stronger ratings if it had a stronger opening. This isn't to say that it was a bad opening, it was just confusing and not entirely engaging. I watched the first episode of Evangelion and I was hooked. I watched the first episode of Kaleido Star and even though I didn't get the series until almost two years later, I totally remembered it the entire time and ended up getting the series. I watched the first episode of Simoun and I was like huh? Okay, lots of yuri, evidently, but plot? what? wait, did they just kill of a main character? WHAT'S GOING ON. Why is there a yellow-haired mickey mouse flying in?

Also, I don't think it helped that Simoun looked like a plotless yurifest, but had a story more intricate and thought-provoking than 90% of anime.
I both agree and disagree. Yes, Simoun looked like a plotless yurifest, and is a large feature in why I paid it no heed when it came out, only to pick it up last month and love it.

However, I disagree in that the first episode really drew me in, from the introduction from the opposing sides viewpoint before the "good" side was introduced, to the killing off of a main character and the first glimpse of a new character in the dying seconds of the episode.

I think the main factor I enjoyed about the series was that it didn't pander to the lowest common denominator like many anime shows tend to do.
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Old 2007-11-26, 08:25   Link #2714
Ri Maajon
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Hey guys,

I've been trying to figure out if one of my favourite music pieces is included in the two OSTs but I've listened to all the tracks and I don't think I can find it. Anyway, if someone else would be kind enough to confirm it for me, the music piece is in Episode 16 and starts around 20:17 all the way to the ED at 22:48.

Thanks in advance!!
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Old 2007-11-28, 13:01   Link #2715
atosaki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darthfury78 View Post
I can envision Simoun taking place on a planet that is populated by Females who can govern for themselves as strong characters. The main characters in the series could have started out as children and gradually make them growup into adults engaging in more complex situations, such as Harry Potter. This could have set the standard for the Yuri content. But the creators missed out on that opportunity to take it to that level. We might have seen an extension of the initial 26 episodes that Simoun got into more than 50, or simply become a regular season that could go on into OVAs and movies. When appropriate, use the Hentai content for a few episodes that could be release as specials that could not be placed on the air. Is that unrealistic?

That would be a completely different series, not Simoun. I really don't see the point of shattering all the great elements of this anime and still wanting to keep the name "simoun".

Every show has a different theme, for different audience. As far as I understand, simoun is not just yuri-fanservice oriented anime but it portrays a bittersweet coming-out-of-age story along with other themes such as making a choice.
If audiences don't get the point, fine. There are plenty of other shows for them.
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Old 2007-11-28, 13:48   Link #2716
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That would be a completely different series, not Simoun. I really don't see the point of shattering all the great elements of this anime and still wanting to keep the name "simoun".
True but that's what darthfury has been talking about for months and I still don't get his arguments either.

Quote:
Is that unrealistic?
Yes. I have never heard of yuri hentai anime which has been commercially successful (are there many hental OVAs based on non-hentai series anyway?). You might want to try the current series Blue Drop as it features an all female alien civilization with aliens who look exactly like humans. It doesn't seem to be too popular either, though.

Quote:
The main characters in the series could have started out as children and gradually make them growup into adults engaging in more complex situations, such as Harry Potter. This could have set the standard for the Yuri content. But the creators missed out on that opportunity to take it to that level.
Don't you mean take it down to this level? Or in other words simplify it?

Quote:
I am not saying that Simoun is a bad show. But I feel that it might have been much more receptive without it by the general anime audience. This is just my opinion: Most folks don't like the idea of Girls becoming Guys. Once they see that, they'll stop watching no matter how good the series is.
Well, as far as I know the popularity of Simoun compared to other yuri series in which there is no sex change is not lagging that much behind. If people are prejudiced enough not to watch because of that - this is their problem, it's not as if the series was mainstream to begin with or would have been mainstream had there been an all female cast of characters.
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Old 2007-11-29, 01:13   Link #2717
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As far I am concerned, Simoun is a great series. But I am only focusing on an alternate universe version. I just want to see how things could play out from a different angle.

The creators of Simoun did that also. They told their version of the tale. Why not create something that could make Simoun different from the original? They do that with anime all the time. It all boils down to the creative/writing team who can tell a compelling story and creating a plot to it to keep the audience glued.

As some has argued, why bother to change Simoun? I am not. The original creative team's version of the series is over. No sense beating on a dead horse.

The truth is I want to see some lively discussion on Simoun with ideas outside the box. That is what I am trying to do.

Could we at least come up with alternate ideas to keep this trend going?
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Old 2007-11-29, 02:49   Link #2718
Kaoru Chujo
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Originally Posted by dauthik View Post
...As a side note, regardless of any transgender issues, Simoun could have had stronger ratings if it had a stronger opening. This isn't to say that it was a bad opening, it was just confusing and not entirely engaging. I watched the first episode of Evangelion and I was hooked. I watched the first episode of Kaleido Star and even though I didn't get the series until almost two years later, I totally remembered it the entire time and ended up getting the series. I watched the first episode of Simoun and I was like huh? Okay, lots of yuri, evidently, but plot? what? wait, did they just kill of a main character? WHAT'S GOING ON. Why is there a yellow-haired mickey mouse flying in? Also, I don't think it helped that Simoun looked like a plotless yurifest, but had a story more intricate and thought-provoking than 90% of anime.
When I rewatch it (several times by now), episode one is one of my favorite episodes. But I do agree with the first point here: it was pretty confusing on first viewing. When you first see it, you feel as if dozens of things are coming at you from all directions, and that seems to have put a lot of people off.

I also like the idea that Simoun looked like "a plotless yurifest" (which it wasn't) but "had a story more intricate and thought-provoking than 90% of anime." Make that 99%. The surface look, especially in the OP, contradicted the nature of the piece in a way that Blue Drop's, for instance, doesn't (quite).

By the way, I see that the director of Simoun, Nishimura Junji, will be directing a new show in January, true tears, a game conversion. The lead writer will be Okada Mari, who wrote several episodes of Simoun. It won't be very similar, but at least it may be well done. The cast includes Nazuka Kaori (Yun), as well as Takagaki Ayahi and Iguchi Yuka. It's done by a company called P.A. Works, rather than Nishimura's normal company, Studio Deen.
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Old 2007-11-29, 18:29   Link #2719
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo View Post
I also like the idea that Simoun looked like "a plotless yurifest" (which it wasn't) but "had a story more intricate and thought-provoking than 90% of anime." Make that 99%. The surface look, especially in the OP, contradicted the nature of the piece in a way that Blue Drop's, for instance, doesn't (quite).

By the way, I see that the director of Simoun, Nishimura Junji, will be directing a new show in January, true tears, a game conversion. The lead writer will be Okada Mari, who wrote several episodes of Simoun. It won't be very similar, but at least it may be well done. The cast includes Nazuka Kaori (Yun), as well as Takagaki Ayahi and Iguchi Yuka. It's done by a company called P.A. Works, rather than Nishimura's normal company, Studio Deen.
Oh snap for real? I am so going to be following that series, thanks a lot for the info!

Also, I wanted to say 99%, but then I thought of NGE, and Utena, and a few other series, so I was like, maybe not 99%. But yeah, more thought-provoking than most.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darthfury78
As far I am concerned, Simoun is a great series. But I am only focusing on an alternate universe version. I just want to see how things could play out from a different angle.
darthfury, it's not a bad idea (although I think it should belong more in fanfiction than as an actual anime series), but what elements would you keep the same? right now, based off of what I can tell from your ideas, you've gotten rid of the whole choosing your gender at the Spring, and instead they're all women, all the time. you're keeping Eri in the series as a major character (with a sister, apparently), you want hentai, and you want Floe and Vyura to be a romantic pair.

where are the similarities? the great love story between Neviril and Aaeru? how are you going to recreate that? they don't have to face going to the Spring anymore, there is no conflict in Aaeru to stimulate Neviril out of her Amuria-angst. are they still going to fly Simoun? what is supposed to keep anyone from flying Simoun? before it was the decision to go to the Spring and grow up, but now that the Spring is only designed to conceive children plenty of people should be able to fly Simoun without a problem. they can even wait forever. the war?

there were a lot of elements that went into Simoun to make it the story that it was. if there was actually to be another series, I suppose Eri could remain, and Floe and Vyura could somehow forge a romantic bond, but doing away with the purpose of the Spring and growing up would get rid of what I think was an essential part of Simoun.

anyway, there are two official mangas out which are based on Simoun but aren't the same. the first, that ran in Yuri Hime, spans three chapters and is what I would be able to accept as an AU of Simoun. the characters do not quite have the same relationships, but they are all there, there still is a war, there still is a Spring, and most things did not change. the other manga is a lot more humorous (I don't know what it ran in) and is more of a spoof on Simoun than anything. it's entertaining, but they could just change the names of the characters and nothing would change. It doesn't really seem to be Simoun.

whatever. you should write out your ideas if you want to and make it into a story or something.
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Old 2007-11-29, 21:05   Link #2720
Deus ex Digital Boy
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OH. MY. FREAKING. GOD. I had forgotten just how absolutely AMAZING Simoun is *nosebleed* can you believe I watched this shit the first time on Crunchyroll?! I'm watching it on DVD going 'ZOMG Backgrounds!!! ZOMG music!!! ZOMG sound effects!!!" It's like a whole new experience, and what's more, when you know what you're getting into the first episode has a LOT more impact. I also had totally forgotten the scene that made me a fan in the first place when
Spoiler:
. Even on the second go, even afer only 6 episodes this show is so very powerful. Amazing cast, amazing visuals - the first time I watched this I could never tell WTF was going on and now I'm freaking out about how downright gorgeous everything is!

Rimone and dominura are still awesome, Parietta is still great, Aer is still one of my favorite characters ever... and I'm loving this even more the second time around. My yuri loving is finally getting satiated! I could never commend this show enough - I can't wait for the other DVDs.

And by the way I LOVED the extras. The seiyuu were all so awesome! Mamiina's seiyuu is adorable!!!
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