AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2008-04-13, 23:26   Link #2801
Matrim
Naysayer?Fanboy?Wiseacre?
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
It's the same way as executing people with a gun, people already made their resolve that they are going to kill someone.
Yes, killing people in a war is exactly the same as executing them with a gun. OK... You sure convinced me. No wonder you expect the characters to get over "the slaughter" so easily - they are basically executors anyway, right? This is like saying all people who eat meat have the guts to go to the slaughterhouse and kill some cows and pigs with their own hands. Details matter a lot in such cases, even though the end result is the same - dead humans or animals.

A hint - having made your resolve to do something does not guarantee you won't be disgusted by the gruesomeness of this thing after doing it. Simple, isn't it?

Quote:
It is possible to damage yourself mentally and emotionally by seeing the person die in a gruesome way
Then obviously the impact of people dying with the perpetrator seeing that from up close is different than the mere knowledge that he or she is responsible for the death of these people, right? Because if it wasn't why would it matter if one sees a gruesome death or a mere figure in the list of people executed by his order? The goal of any military propaganda machine is to deprive the image of the enemy from all its humanity, there is a reason for that, one would think. In the moment she saw that enemy's face Neviril broke the illusion that she was fighting just some abstract enemy with no face and no personality (a totally illogical illusion, yet rather common whatever your psychology tells you ). And that's why it was it hit her hard. Anyway, even ignoring that the other events from ep.1 should have been sufficient to make her "emo", so I really don't see why we are dwelling on his point that much.
__________________
'The world we live in is always in darkness.'
'Yes, and that is why we seek light.'

Matrim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-04-14, 21:08   Link #2802
anselfir
Style Über Alles
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: NYC/Chicago
Quote:
Originally Posted by Futaba-chan View Post
But no Dominura singing the Song of the Migrants? Sigh....
T_T

i will sacrifice several small and cute animals to obtain this.
anselfir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-04-22, 18:48   Link #2803
WanderingKnight
Gregory House
*IT Support
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Age: 25
Send a message via MSN to WanderingKnight
I just finished rewatching Simoun (1st of many rewatchings, hopefully). By the gods, what a gorgeous series. It gets even better every time you rewatch it. I'm glad I've done so, because watching it again cemented even stronger the emotions that the series had provoked on me during the first run.

By the way, now that I've watched it again, I have no speck of doubt about Onashia being Dominura. Not a single one. The only element that perhaps doesn't completely close the story is Limone (why doesn't she suffer the same fate for not choosing her gender? Unless she chooses it and we're not told about it), but then again, there are many gaps plot-wise, and it's not the main point of the series anyways.

The only thing I would like explained is the reappearance of Angulas at the Ruins, unless it can be simply justified by the warping of space and time within that place.
__________________


Place them in a box until a quieter time | Lights down, you up and die.
WanderingKnight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-04-23, 01:38   Link #2804
anselfir
Style Über Alles
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: NYC/Chicago
limone suffered some misfortune probably. it is not simoun's style to treat every character like the children of destiny, accidents happen to them.
anselfir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-04-23, 04:50   Link #2805
Fweakin
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Australia
Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
I just finished rewatching Simoun (1st of many rewatchings, hopefully). By the gods, what a gorgeous series. It gets even better every time you rewatch it. I'm glad I've done so, because watching it again cemented even stronger the emotions that the series had provoked on me during the first run.
I couldn't agree more. I rewatched it only a few weeks ago, and expected to fast forward through some scenes (as I usually do on rewatches with other series), but found myself even more riveted to the screen than the first watch through. It's about the only series I've watched so far that I could wax poetic about.

It will forever be a monumental tragedy that not enough people will either see or give this series a chance (due to it's odd pitch/marketing).
__________________
'Tis all a Chequer-board of Nights and Days
Where Destiny with Men for Pieces plays:
Hither and thither moves, and mates, and slays,
And one by one back in the Closet lays.
--Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam
Fweakin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-04-26, 21:57   Link #2806
Matrim
Naysayer?Fanboy?Wiseacre?
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Well, I have rewatched the series three times and still find hard to believe that people can seriously think Dominura is Onashia, let alone be certain about it. It just doesn't add up on so many levels for me - from the obvious time-travel paradoxes to the difference in their personalities. Does the Dominashia theory requires her to have jumped forward in time or just lived on until the war started? Both scenarios seem extremely unlikely to me.
__________________
'The world we live in is always in darkness.'
'Yes, and that is why we seek light.'

Matrim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-04-27, 00:46   Link #2807
WanderingKnight
Gregory House
*IT Support
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Age: 25
Send a message via MSN to WanderingKnight
Well, consider the following points:

1) First and foremost, the specks of golden dust Dominura leaves behind.
2) Yun utters Dominura's name after she received all of Onashia's feelings.
3) Dominura is said to be the sole survivor of Chor Dextra, Onashia identifies herself as a former member of that Chor.
4) Dominura actually does exactly what Onashia reproaches to herself: She runs away from her decision. Her fixation in Limone has to do with the latter's defiance of the role she is supposed to carry away, and that obsession has to do with Dominura's own conflict about the choice of her gender. Remember, she's the oldest member of the Sybillae (she's 20 when she joins Chor Tempest), and being three years past the age to make the choice, she ought to be heavily pressured by that.
5) Onashia's presence in the main timeline (solving the time paradox that you apparently mention, unless I'm missing something here) can be justified by her transformation into an "eien no shoujo"--an eternal maiden, a child who has never chosen and thus has eternally remained the same. This is an important plot point, Onashia herself explains it when she tells her story to Yun--she resides forever secluded in the Spring, a place twisted by space and time. If Dominura followed Onashia's steps and never made a choice, she would have evidently become the same kind of eternal maiden--the question is, where is she right now, if she's not Onashia? (Of course, that means we have to agree that Limone and Dominura actually traveled back in time when they performed the Emerald Ri Maajon--which is honestly the only explanation that makes sense).
6) And for some artistic similarities, there is the fact that both have green-colored hair (though Onashia's is expectably more faded), and both have very similar eye shapes--something that if you pay enough attention, doesn't happen with any main character at all.

If that doesn't mean Dominura is Onashia, then it's a helluva lot of hints in that direction, and I think inventing another character which shares a lot of characteristics with Dominura and isn't actually her would worsen quite a bit the point of both characters. If Onashia isn't actually Dominura, then what's her point in the story? How did she come to be? What does she represent? How do you justify Dominura not existing in the main timeline as an eternal maiden in that case? A "multiple parallel universes" time paradox? That'd just add more unnecessary complexity to the (already weak) plot.

Making those two characters completely unrelated to each other would make both of them much duller and less interesting.
__________________


Place them in a box until a quieter time | Lights down, you up and die.

Last edited by WanderingKnight; 2008-04-27 at 02:29.
WanderingKnight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-04-27, 07:59   Link #2808
Matrim
Naysayer?Fanboy?Wiseacre?
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
1) First and foremost, the specks of golden dust Dominura leaves behind.
That's no proof, everything points to this phenomenon being merely a result of not picking a gender. If that's your biggest proof than Aaeru is a candidate for being Onashia, too.

Quote:
3) Dominura is said to be the sole survivor of Chor Dextra, Onashia identifies herself as a former member of that Chor.
Chor Dextra is a bit of a mess plot-wise. The way Dominura and Onashia were telling its story you would think it existed only for a small period, tried the Emerald Ri-Maaajon and that was it. But considering Aaeru's grandfather was its Regina, it seems it had way longer history. Maybe Onashia was the sole remmant of the first Chor Dextra (the one from the time of Aaeru's grandpa) and Dominura from the last. And of course, Dominura can't be expected to know Onashia's background (unless both are the same person), so her saying she is the last survivor while Onashia is still alive makes sense.

Quote:
If Dominura followed Onashia's steps and never made a choice, she would have evidently become the same kind of eternal maiden--the question is, where is she right now, if she's not Onashia?
She is very much dead, if you ask me, I doubt not choosing a gender gives one an actual eternal life, "eien no shoujo" should not be taken 100% literally. Dominura and Limone seemingly went a lot of years back in time. You would think that someone would have mentioned Onashia being immortal if she had ruled for say 400 years.

Quote:
If Onashia isn't actually Dominura, then what's her point in the story?
Being the leader of Simulacrum? The living example that not picking sex is not good for one's health? The one who prevented Chor Tempest from being disbanded?
__________________
'The world we live in is always in darkness.'
'Yes, and that is why we seek light.'

Matrim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-04-27, 11:43   Link #2809
WanderingKnight
Gregory House
*IT Support
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Age: 25
Send a message via MSN to WanderingKnight
Quote:
That's no proof, everything points to this phenomenon being merely a result of not picking a gender. If that's your biggest proof than Aaeru is a candidate for being Onashia, too.
That's not a fair comparison. Aaeru and Neviril become something completely different--they manage to transcend space and time; the shape of their Emerald Ri Maajon proves it, asides from the fact they seem to appear in different timelines at the same time. I mean, reaching such a perfect state of eternal stillness was the whole point of those two characters, as opposed to Onashia, who's only a pale reflection of what Aaeru and Neviril attained.

Quote:
Chor Dextra is a bit of a mess plot-wise.
Agreed, some things aren't clear enough.

Quote:
The way Dominura and Onashia were telling its story you would think it existed only for a small period, tried the Emerald Ri-Maaajon and that was it. But considering Aaeru's grandfather was its Regina, it seems it had way longer history. Maybe Onashia was the sole remmant of the first Chor Dextra (the one from the time of Aaeru's grandpa) and Dominura from the last.
That is a possibility--the missing information about Aaeru's grandfather surely gives way to such a speculation.

Quote:
She is very much dead, if you ask me, I doubt not choosing a gender gives one an actual eternal life, "eien no shoujo" should not be taken 100% literally.
She says so herself! She says she is eternally condemned to watching over the Spring. In fact, Yun is such a blessing for her because she allows Onashia to pass on, relieving her of her timeless punishment. Not taking it literally would mean bringing in a personal standpoint on the issue, a personal standpoint which has absolutely nothing to do with the plot. Onashia being eternal makes sense, as she says so herself, and as she is relieved when Yun offers herself as a replacement.

Quote:
You would think that someone would have mentioned Onashia being immortal if she had ruled for say 400 years.
Onashia is never treated like a regular person, and I don't think not mentioning her immortality is enough proof to disprove it--especially when she says so herself. The people don't have to know anything about Onashia--they merely know she is there, watching over the Spring, much like they know the Simoun are there, without having a clear hint on their origins. I would raise you this question, if we consider your case: If she wasn't immortal, why aren't there any third-party explanations about how she got to be there? If she wasn't there before the generations in the current timeline, how do you justify such reverence for her? Her state as a demi-goddess among the people of Simulacrum can't be understood if she hadn't been there before anyone else, if you ask me.

Quote:
Being the leader of Simulacrum?
She is not the leader, she is merely watching over the Spring. No one chose her, there is no mention of such a thing, and adding it would complicate the plot needlessly.

Quote:
The living example that not picking sex is not good for one's health? The one who prevented Chor Tempest from being disbanded?
That's boring. Not making Dominura related to Onashia makes both characters dull and less interesting, not to mention much less complete. However, making them the same makes sense within the limited information the plot gives us. Speculating on limited information has to be done not from a personal standpoint on the issue, but from what is better for the overall delivery of the characters. At this point, there is not a definite answer on the point of Dominura being the same as Onashia, as it is not directly asserted within the series. However, if we connect a few loose dots, we can make out a much better and richer explanation for both characters. We can also choose not to do so, since we're dealing with speculation and limited information--however, I believe not connecting those loose ends and hints the series gives us makes for worse characters.

It's up to you, though.
__________________


Place them in a box until a quieter time | Lights down, you up and die.

Last edited by WanderingKnight; 2008-04-27 at 12:03. Reason: A few corrections
WanderingKnight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-04-27, 13:32   Link #2810
Matrim
Naysayer?Fanboy?Wiseacre?
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Do you believe in Amuria=Aaeru theory then? Their personalities are certainly very much similar and we never saw a dead body which is about the same amount of proof as there is for Dominashia.

Quote:
the shape of their Emerald Ri Maajon proves it
It does? That's a rather bold claim. I don't think they reached some perfect state - except as symbols in the minds of their comrades, that is. But then again I am very much into bittersweet endings, so this could be my wishful thinking talking. Though, I certainly think the ending was too ambiguous to allow us to be sure that Aaeru-Neviril's Emerald Ri-Maajon was more perfect than Dominura-Limone's.

Quote:
She says so herself! She says she is eternally condemned to watching over the Spring.
I had somehow managed to forget that (4th rewatch, here I come! ) but still I find it weird no one ever mentioned something like "You know, Onashia has been watching over the Spring ever since we started flying Simouns". Eternally might have been a hyperbole in this case, meaning until she dies. Anyway, an immortal Onashia doesn't mean she must be Dominura. More importantly, the issue is whether her being immortal would have been a well known fact or not - if she had been in a Sybilla with Aaeru's grandpa then people would probably not have been that struck by her being in the Spring for that long - her visage hardly reveals any obvious age, while if she is Dominura she would have been around for quite long, unless people started flying Simouns like 50 years ago which seems rather unlikely.

Quote:
If she wasn't immortal, why aren't there any third-party explanations about how she got to be there?
Maybe because everyone knows how High Priestesses get their position? When you watch a movie set in modern times do you often hear conversations along the lines of "You know, in our country we vote for our president and he has a mandate of X years"? Or in a period drama "You know, the title of king is hereditary". Now, if the king in the movie is immortal, it woudl be extremely weird if no one ever mentioned it. There are lots of things about the world of Simoun that we have no clue about.

Quote:
If she wasn't there before the generations in the current timeline, how do you justify such reverence for her?
How do you justify the reverence of Japanese emperors or Egyptian pharaohs? Or even the Pope of the Catholic Church? After all Simulacrum is a theocracy. How do you explain Onashia not telling even Yun that she was actually Dominura? What's the point of hiding it?

Quote:
She is not the leader, she is merely watching over the Spring.
She seems like the nominal head of state to me (and wikipedia agrees, so I must be right ). When she decides something no one seems to be able to stop her from doing it. And even if she isn't (then who is, btw?), merely is not a word I would use in connection with watching over the Spring.
__________________
'The world we live in is always in darkness.'
'Yes, and that is why we seek light.'

Matrim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-04-27, 13:55   Link #2811
WanderingKnight
Gregory House
*IT Support
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Age: 25
Send a message via MSN to WanderingKnight
Quote:
Do you believe in Amuria=Aaeru theory then? Their personalities are certainly very much similar and we never saw a dead body which is about the same amount of proof as there is for Dominashia.
I don't believe in Amuria = Aaeru, but that's because there are no certain hints in that direction. There's no "proof" to any of those theories, but the Dominashia one has a LOT more evident hints in that direction (which I ennumerated in my previous post) than Amuria = Aaeru.

Quote:
It does? That's a rather bold claim. I don't think they reached some perfect state - except as symbols in the minds of their comrades, that is. But then again I am very much into bittersweet endings, so this could be my wishful thinking talking. Though, I certainly think the ending was too ambiguous to allow us to be sure that Aaeru-Neviril's Emerald Ri-Maajon was more perfect than Dominura-Limone's.
Neviril and Aaeru's Ri Maajon shines in a white light, Dominura and Limone's is black and sucks everything in like a vacuum. That, coupled with the hints of Neviril and Aaeru appearing randomly throughout Daikuuriku in both timelines, I think gives us enough insight to believe that, at the very least, they attained something completely different from what Dominura and Limone did.

Once again, the whole character development would be much duller if they hadn't done something unique, something no one had done before.

Quote:
Anyway, an immortal Onashia doesn't mean she must be Dominura.
Nothing means she must be Dominura--once again, I say that there's no proof to any of both theories. We're left with a couple of hints, everything else is speculation--but if speculation means dulling the characters' purpose, then I believe it's better to accept the view that makes the character more interesting.

Quote:
Eternally might have been a hyperbole in this case, meaning until she dies. Anyway, an immortal Onashia doesn't mean she must be Dominura. More importantly, the issue is whether her being immortal would have been a well known fact or not - if she had been in a Sybilla with Aaeru's grandpa then people would probably not have been that struck by her being in the Spring for that long - her visage hardly reveals any obvious age, while if she is Dominura she would have been around for quite long, unless people started flying Simouns like 50 years ago which seems rather unlikely.
Once again, we're not told ANYTHING in any of those directions, except for Onashia's words themselves. Whether it sounds weird, implausible, or nonsensical to you doesn't matter much, because it makes sense within the series. We're never told anything about how Onashia came to be from the standpoint of the church or of the government. The only thing we are asserted of is that she has a power of decision over the Sybillae's future, and that's it. I think that, in a country were unknown machines are revered like the chariots of God itself, having reverence for a mysterious, eternal being and not question its existence is something that makes sense.

And again, how would you justify Onashia's relief when Yun comes to replace her? How would you justify Yun uttering Dominura's name when Onashia transfers to her the whole of her memories and feelings?

Quote:
She seems like the nominal head of state to me (and wikipedia agrees, so I must be right).
Hmm, first of all, Wikipedia says:

Quote:
Onasia is the High Priestess of the Tempus Spatium, and presides over the gender selection ceremony at the Spring. Daikūrikans are born female, and choose a sex at age 17; in Simulacrum, this is done by going to the Spring at the temple of Tempus Spatium. As head of Simulacrum's High Council, she serves as head of state. She is the last survivor of Chor Dextra, and has lived for many generations; she once had another name, and part of the mystery of the series is to discover who she is.
I don't think there are reasons for her to be the head of state, unless something's been officially said outside the scope of the series (magazines, etc). Then again, the Wikipedia you quote also says that "...she has lived for many generations", that "she once had another name" and that "part of the mystery of the series is to discover who she is". I don't think Wikipedia is too much of a reliable source on these kinds of matters, but here you have it.

Quote:
How do you explain Onashia not telling even Yun that she was actually Dominura? What's the point of hiding it?
Onashia doesn't need to--she transfers all her feelings and memories to Yun. Watch the episode again--after that, Yun utters Dominura's name. Then again, if Onashia sat down and said "Lookie here, lassy, I'm Dominura, can't you recognize me?", the whole dramatic effect would have been lost.

For the umpteenth time, I repeat: If Dominura is not Onashia, then a great part of what makes this series' character development great is lost. Hints without a purpose make for a duller experience.
__________________


Place them in a box until a quieter time | Lights down, you up and die.
WanderingKnight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-04-27, 15:05   Link #2812
Matrim
Naysayer?Fanboy?Wiseacre?
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
I don't believe in Amuria = Aaeru, but that's because there are no certain hints in that direction.
There aren't hints? What about the constant "Aaeru is so like Amuria" remarks from Neviril?

Quote:
Once again, the whole character development would be much duller if they hadn't done something unique, something no one had done before.
And once again, the end of their character development was mostly symbolic and ambiguous - this is clearly stated in the very end by no other by their former comrades wondering why they had wanted so much for Neviril and Aaeru to become "eternal". They did an unique thing by using the Emerald Ri-Maajon not as last resort weapon but as means of following their heart.

Quote:
but if speculation means dulling the characters' purpose, then I believe it's better to accept the view that makes the character more interesting.
Well, to me Dominura and Onashia are more interesting on their own then as one person. And Dominura doesn't strike me as a person who would have any desire whatsoever to be a High Priestess. The one who had such personality was Yun and she got the job without the need of time paradoxes. But yes, I can't prove a negative, of course. It's just that the discussion is fun.

Quote:
Once again, we're not told ANYTHING in any of those directions, except for Onashia's words themselves. Whether it sounds weird, implausible, or nonsensical to you doesn't matter much, because it makes sense within the series.
It also makes sense methaphorically (as in Onashia not actually being immortal and/or having lived for centuries), so we are back to square one.

Quote:
I think that, in a country were unknown machines are revered like the chariots of God itself, having reverence for a mysterious, eternal being and not question its existence is something that makes sense.
Well, of course it does, but having a not so mysterious being for a High Priestess makes sense too. For all we know the Spring itself might require an eternal maiden as the one who picks genders in cases people can't pick.

Quote:
Hmm, first of all, Wikipedia says:
You did notice the smilie after my wikipedia remark, right? I am curious though why whoever wrote the wiki article is so sure Dominura has once had another name and why this should necessarily mean she also happens to be one fo the other characters.

Quote:
I don't think there are reasons for her to be the head of state
We are talknig about a theocracy. She has the power to overrule the highest ranked "normal" priestess at least in certain occasions. If she is not the head of state then who is?

Quote:
Watch the episode again--after that, Yun utters Dominura's name.
Except that this happens two episodes later. Even assuming this was a flashback, then we have to ask ourselves why didn't Yun tell the Chor Tempest members about this extraordinary development. Also, oone would think Onashia would have convinced Yun to take her place a lot more easily had she revealed to her the truth about Dominashia immediately after deciding Yun might be the one to save her from her fate. You know, with Yun so obsessed with the death or disappearance of her comrades and all that jazz.
__________________
'The world we live in is always in darkness.'
'Yes, and that is why we seek light.'

Matrim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-04-27, 15:45   Link #2813
Kuroi Cosmo
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
I finished the series today. Wonderful, simply wonderful

As for the Onashia/Dominura thing, I'd tend to believe that they are the same person, there are far too many hints, as WanderingKnight well explained.
I don't think the writers put them randomly, imho they were clearly suggesting us Onashia's "true" identity.

However, my problem is that I wish I'd not believe in this theory

There's a simple reason: if Onashia is Dominura, where the hell is Limone? Why is she not with her?
Did she choose a gender and then died? Did she and Dominura got separated for whatever reason?

They are such a cute couple... I prefer to think they continued to live together loving each other till the end... Onashia's fate is just too sad...
Kuroi Cosmo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-04-27, 15:48   Link #2814
WanderingKnight
Gregory House
*IT Support
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Age: 25
Send a message via MSN to WanderingKnight
Quote:
There aren't hints? What about the constant "Aaeru is so like Amuria" remarks from Neviril?
I believe that has more to do with what Aaeru and Amuria represent to Neviril as persons. At a point through the series, Neviril believes Aaeru is just using her like Amuria did, but then she realizes her love for Aaeru, as it is a chance for her to redo her lost past. I believe it merely represents that both characters played a similar role in Neviril's life, though Aaeru's was "purest", because she reciprocated the love, or at least that's the impression I get. There aren't clear hints, not in the sense that there are hints towards Dominura being Onashia.

Quote:
And once again, the end of their character development was mostly symbolic and ambiguous - this is clearly stated in the very end by no other by their former comrades wondering why they had wanted so much for Neviril and Aaeru to become "eternal". They did an unique thing by using the Emerald Ri-Maajon not as last resort weapon but as means of following their heart.
I don't understand how that proves that what they did had exactly the same result as what Dominura and Limone did. We're losing the trail of the discussion here, I believe--you asked me why didn't Neviril or Aaeru become something similar to Dominura/Onashia, well, I answered that they didn't do the same thing; and now you tell me they didn't do the same thing. My conclusion of them becoming ethereal beings doesn't conflict with your analysis of them as a symbolic link between the rest of the Sybillae.

Ultimately, I believe that Aaeru and Neviril perfected that which Dominura couldn't achieve: a perfect eternal stillness, shielded from the responsibility of choosing a path. Dominura (Onashia) didn't managed to become that, and thus she was condemned to eternally living in a state of impurity. Remember, whether you consider them to be the same person or not, Dominura and Onashia's inner conflicts overlap--Dominura is trying to run away from her choice, Onashia says to have done so, but at a terrible cost.

Quote:
Well, to me Dominura and Onashia are more interesting on their own then as one person.
I find the fact that there are so many loose ends (again, refer to that past post, I still haven't seen you actually give those hints a different purpose) a further weakening of the show itself.

Quote:
And Dominura doesn't strike me as a person who would have any desire whatsoever to be a High Priestess. The one who had such personality was Yun and she got the job without the need of time paradoxes.
You just helped me with that: Onashia is condemned. She lies at the Spring against her inner desires--that's why Yun, with her willingness to bear her weight, represents Onashia's liberation and disappearance. I think you missed an important point that made Yun's character so beautiful; it made her one of my favorite characters of the series.

Quote:
It also makes sense methaphorically (as in Onashia not actually being immortal and/or having lived for centuries), so we are back to square one.
Yes, but I can find metaphoric meanings in everything--but metaphoric meanings don't always help the development of a character. Onashia clearly says that, and her doing so closes the circle that binds her and Dominura... if we are to take that metaphorically, then the circle remains unclosed, and unfortunately so in my opinion.

Quote:
We are talknig about a theocracy. She has the power to overrule the highest ranked "normal" priestess at least in certain occasions. If she is not the head of state then who is?
The government seems powerful enough to force the priestesses to fight in battle, despite evident complaints from the church itself (the one that Onashia is supposed to be a head of, according to you).

Quote:
Except that this happens two episodes later.
I just checked this, and it happens right after Dominura's golden sparkles are seen. If this doesn't cement the theory, I don't know what does. If Yun's words were the random occurrence of a drunk scriptwriter, well, then the series loses solidness.

Quote:
Even assuming this was a flashback, then we have to ask ourselves why didn't Yun tell the Chor Tempest members about this extraordinary development.
Why would she? Again, I think you're making unnecessary assumptions that are not hinted at within the context of the series (we're both making assumptions, but I consider I'm making them based on what the series hinted at). The only thing that the rest of the priestesses needed to know about Yun (and Rodoreamon was the one who understood this the best) is that Yun made the decision to carry a heavy weight. I don't think more than that was necessary, or the scene would have been really awkward instead of beautiful.
__________________


Place them in a box until a quieter time | Lights down, you up and die.
WanderingKnight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-04-27, 18:19   Link #2815
Matrim
Naysayer?Fanboy?Wiseacre?
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
I don't understand how that proves that what they did had exactly the same result as what Dominura and Limone did.
That's not surprising since it, of course, proves nothing, but then again your idea about Aaeru and Neviril overcoming the eternal maiden curse is not backed by cold evidence either (this seems to be the motif of our discussion ).

Quote:
The government seems powerful enough to force the priestesses to fight in battle, despite evident complaints from the church itself (the one that Onashia is supposed to be a head of, according to you).
No one is forcing them to fight (well, not until the situation became really bad for Simulacrum), the Sybillae are in theory perfectly free to go to the Spring at any time. And of course, a head of state doesn't necessarily hold the real power in it. Why were we arguing about that again?

Quote:
You just helped me with that: Onashia is condemned. She lies at the Spring against her inner desires--that's why Yun, with her willingness to bear her weight, represents Onashia's liberation and disappearance.
Onashia is cursed with (probably) a long life and a cold sparkling body but is she cursed with being a High Priestess against her will. I think she doesn't want release from her position but a release from such existence. My point was that I just don't see Dominura taking over the Spring in the first place. Of course, it can be said that people change, well I don't see it. Like Kuroi Cosmo, I don't want to believe in this theory.


Quote:
I just checked this, and it happens right after Dominura's golden sparkles are seen. If this doesn't cement the theory, I don't know what does. If Yun's words were the random occurrence of a drunk scriptwriter, well, then the series loses solidness.
*cough* red herring *cough* And it's not right after the golden sparkles are seen but before Dominura appears in the episode. It might well have been some sort of foreboding that Dominura (and maybe Rimone too) might share Onashia's fate...but not by actually being her.

Well, we are going in circles, really. I am pretty sure this was already discussed a few times, so will try to find some new arguments...not that it's likely that anyone would be convinced.

EDIT: I found an interesting idea, all credit to warainagara - http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...postcount=1920 :
Quote:
"Dominura," uttered by Yun, reminded me Onashia knew where Mamina's soul was, which means Yunashia knows Dominura's death.
Also in the ep.25 Yun's face was twisted very much like Dominura's when she saw the inside of the Helical Motoris in ep.15. Maybe she finally figured out what Dominura saw back then (whatever it was) and the scene in 26 with her saying "Dominura" picks up from that moment?
__________________
'The world we live in is always in darkness.'
'Yes, and that is why we seek light.'


Last edited by Matrim; 2008-04-27 at 18:34.
Matrim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-04-27, 18:28   Link #2816
WanderingKnight
Gregory House
*IT Support
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Age: 25
Send a message via MSN to WanderingKnight
Quote:
*cough* red herring *cough*
Umm, you do know this is usually done to confuse the audience at first, but with a final answer finally given?

If you throw a red herring only for the sake of doing so, then, I repeat, it further dulls the impact of the series. I'd answer to the rest of your points, but I'm at work right now. I'll do so when I come back.
__________________


Place them in a box until a quieter time | Lights down, you up and die.
WanderingKnight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-04-28, 00:11   Link #2817
anselfir
Style Über Alles
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: NYC/Chicago
having onasia = dominura in some significant sense is a great move, at least by potential. it develops onasia instantly, (kinda like the snapdragon sword in ogre battle, merging two characters into one, just like that) and if done well builds upon the larger plot as well.
anselfir is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-04-28, 11:53   Link #2818
harmonious
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
By the way, now that I've watched it again, I have no speck of doubt about Onashia being Dominura. Not a single one. The only element that perhaps doesn't completely close the story is Limone (why doesn't she suffer the same fate for not choosing her gender? Unless she chooses it and we're not told about it), but then again, there are many gaps plot-wise, and it's not the main point of the series anyways.
I don't think Onashia is Dominura. Onashia said she has never been embraced while Dominura has been.
harmonious is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-04-28, 12:17   Link #2819
WanderingKnight
Gregory House
*IT Support
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Age: 25
Send a message via MSN to WanderingKnight
Quote:
I don't think Onashia is Dominura. Onashia said she has never been embraced while Dominura has been.
Onashia couldn't be embraced because of the changes her body went through when she decided not to change her gender. I think the series stated pretty clearly that she had to cover her skin because it would whither away if she didn't.
__________________


Place them in a box until a quieter time | Lights down, you up and die.
WanderingKnight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-04-28, 14:36   Link #2820
anselfir
Style Über Alles
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: NYC/Chicago
it is not necessary for onasia to be the dominura in the limone timeline, perhaps dominura without the significant development she went through, the dominura in the "what if she continued to be austere and iconoclastic"
anselfir is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
drama, science fiction, yuri

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 22:26.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.