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View Poll Results: Fate/stay Night Episode 9 Rating
Perfect 10 29 21.80%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 37 27.82%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 44 33.08%
7 out of 10 : Good 13 9.77%
6 out of 10 : Average 8 6.02%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 2 1.50%
Voters: 133. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2006-03-09, 01:26   Link #241
justinstrife
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I LOVE stirring the pot. It's my mission in life with all discussions I engage people in.

First off lets start with Kira_Naruto. He's a teenager. Logic escapes 99% of teenagers in most things. They don't think things through. They're impulsive, and act through their basic instincts. Shirou's instincts are well grounded, and he acts on them then thinks about what happened later. He's just a little slower than most.

idof: That's nice about how well u do in sports with skill over determination, but there's other factors involved too. Luck, natural ability, circumstance, ect. Someone with less skill can defeat a more skilled opponent with those other factors involved. Skill doesn't get you through 100% of the time. It's just not possible. There's an old west saying,"I'd rather be lucky than good." You'll find that quote has alot of truth to it. Skill will get you through most things, but Luck and circumstance can get you through the rest. And as 'outdated' as my thinking is, how much of your logic on my thinking, opinion? The feminist movement was huge in the United states in the 20th century, yet we're only finding out now, that at least half of what that movement taught women, was flawed. Women are more sensitive in general to child raising. They generally are happier taking care of the kids, and relying more on the male to make the majority of the bread earning(recent studies done in the U.S. just this past month), women excel on average in certain academic subjects better than men, and vice versa. Men and women are not equal. We have our own strengths and weaknesses that inherently make it so that we will never be completely equal. It's how God made us, and it shows up in everything that we do.

Now the one thing I would have done a long time ago, that Shirou never did, was had Saber and Rin train me in combat and magic, so that I would have been more useful in the battlefield(unlike Shirou ATM), and relied more on their power to get my dreams and goals more realized, since my own wouldn't have been enough at the time. He's only now reaching what I would have done from day one. His desire to protect others, and sacrifice himself in order to do so, is admirable, and something I've done on occassion. He just needs to learn how to do it more efficiently. But since I'm 10 years older than him, It's far easier for me to point at his mistakes. At 16, I know very well rationalism was still something I lacked greatly, and I would have been making very similiar decisions as he has. You get the sense of invincibility at that age(I had it and I did everything you could do), and he hasn't yet faced a real consequence that tells him he isn't invincible(like I did when I spent 2 weeks in the hospital and almost lost my leg over a sport injury 4 years ago). For all the people who are beating Shirou to death, my only reply to you is, I'd rather support someone of his heart, than most of you. As his desire to protect others over himself at all cost, is a purity most lack.
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Old 2006-03-09, 01:27   Link #242
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kira_Naruto
If your country was attacked with tanks, defending it with knives (or boxcutter ) is soo much different then defending it with your own tanks.
I've been thinking mabye Shirou should just buy a gun? (with tranquilizer darts if he doesn't want to hurt anyone ) so the next time he might.. not be ripped apart
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Old 2006-03-09, 01:56   Link #243
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justinstrife
Now the one thing I would have done a long time ago, that Shirou never did, was had Saber and Rin train me in combat and magic, so that I would have been more useful in the battlefield(unlike Shirou ATM), and relied more on their power to get my dreams and goals more realized, since my own wouldn't have been enough at the time. He's only now reaching what I would have done from day one. His desire to protect others, and sacrifice himself in order to do so, is admirable, and something I've done on occassion. He just needs to learn how to do it more efficiently. But since I'm 10 years older than him, It's far easier for me to point at his mistakes. At 16, I know very well rationalism was still something I lacked greatly, and I would have been making very similiar decisions as he has. You get the sense of invincibility at that age(I had it and I did everything you could do), and he hasn't yet faced a real consequence that tells him he isn't invincible(like I did when I spent 2 weeks in the hospital and almost lost my leg over a sport injury 4 years ago). For all the people who are beating Shirou to death, my only reply to you is, I'd rather support someone of his heart, than most of you. As his desire to protect others over himself at all cost, is a purity most lack.
Quote:
Originally Posted by me
Thus in Shirou's position.. if he really, really want to defend Saber, he surely doesnt proactively seek to improves his ability to defend (stupidly like Relena ) . It takes Saber to actively offer to teach... How nice, to have a legendary hero to offer you how to fight How very ...
I sentenced mine differently, but it practically the same thing (unless I read wrongly ). In order to defend.. he need to realised that he's stilll inadequate to play the role of protector.. and should seeks ways to increase his ability ... but what did he do so far to go to that direction?

Logic escapes 99% of the times for teens.. The reason I jumped into the anime world is because i did things that 99% of teens would do But because of 1 incident ... I now belong to the other group, BUT for Shirou, how many incidents have happened? 2 near death, 1 revival, and still he foolishly stand without thinking ... -_-''

Shorou Baka!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by evil-samurai
I've been thinking mabye Shirou should just buy a gun? (with tranquilizer darts if he doesn't want to hurt anyone ) so the next time he might.. not be ripped apart
Well.. if he upgraded from boxcutter to guns .. I'll applaud him, but fighting tanks with guns is still a foolish thing to do

But if he used tranquilizer I doubt his sanity
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Last edited by KiNA; 2006-03-09 at 02:06.
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Old 2006-03-09, 02:09   Link #244
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Rider vs. Caster fight is awesome than Saber vs. Assassin fight. I was wondering about Saber's special ability.
Too much focus on Shirou/Saber.
I give 9 becuase Saber's special ability was cool
Saber is too cute!
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Old 2006-03-09, 02:55   Link #245
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kira_Naruto
I sentenced mine differently, but it practically the same thing (unless I read wrongly ). In order to defend.. he need to realised that he's stilll inadequate to play the role of protector.. and should seeks ways to increase his ability ... but what did he do so far to go to that direction?

Logic escapes 99% of the times for teens.. The reason I jumped into the anime world is because i did things that 99% of teens would do But because of 1 incident ... I now belong to the other group, BUT for Shirou, how many incidents have happened? 2 near death, 1 revival, and still he foolishly stand without thinking ... -_-''

Shorou Baka!!!


Well.. if he upgraded from boxcutter to guns .. I'll applaud him, but fighting tanks with guns is still a foolish thing to do

But if he used tranquilizer I doubt his sanity
Shirou still hasn't had something happen to him in a way to make him think he's wrong in his thinking. His near deaths and revivals haven't had any real consequences yet. He turns out good as new each time, and his latest fight he was on par with a servant with only the use of one arm. He's actually making rapid improvement, and he probably feels it as well. Those improvements are probably just increasing his feeling that he is doing the right thing, or at least that he isn't totally wrong in any case.

He's not the smartest male lead, but I can spout off a thousand male leads who were even less in the intelligence area.
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Old 2006-03-09, 06:55   Link #246
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That's what Archer was somewhat warning him at the ending of Episode 6, yet he didn't get it.

Probably for Shirou grown up as a person and a man, something VERY BAD needs to happen... something like someone close to him to die.

He's in a war, so deaths will happen. I just hope will not be Saber or Rin or Sakura.

(But it's okay to me if jerk Shinji die painfully )
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Old 2006-03-09, 08:06   Link #247
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Quote:
originally posted by Sinestra:
I also thnk that Rin has some other motives for moving into the house, plus its going to be intresting to see what happens with all these girls in the house with him. Does anyone have any theories on some Romantic aspects between shirou Rin Saber and Sakura?
Yes.

*note that this post is based upon anime observance & speculation only, and is not flavoured in any sense by spoilers from the game. Use at your own risk*

^_^

There are (discounting same sex relationships) three ways the triangle could resolve here (and I doubt the lesbian theme will occur in the TV version of Fate). They are, naturally enough, Sakura & Shirou, Saber & Shirou, Rin & Shirou. Other characters/pairings are too minor to be given screentime.

Firstly, Sakura as Shirou's partner. She is obviously devoted to Shirou, from what we have seen in the anime - which begins in episode one, and continues, albeit more sporadically as the show progresses. Firstly, there is her sudden decision (as we haven't yet received a motivation) for her to come over to 'learn to cook' properly from Shirou, which results in her being his de facto housekeeper. She obviously also, by the way her character interacts with Shirou (ref. episode one during the 'breakfast scene'; episode 8 after Rin has 'explained the situation) has romantic feelings towards Shirou, which are, at this point unrequited. And they will continue to be so.

From Shirou's attitude towards Sakura, he regards her far more as a younger sibling or as a friend then as a romantic interest. He does have regard for her feelings (ref: episode 7, when he 'stands up' Rin to explain to Sakura what was occurring in the morning) but he does not show any romantic feelings or attitudes to Sakura that could in any way lead to a form of relationship other than what they have. He obviously does love her, but I use love here in a platonic/filial, and not a romantic/sexual manner.

Secondly, Saber as Shirou's partner. On the face of it, this pairing does look plausible and attractive. They're living together, working together, and they both have reasons to stay together. This is.... really it, though. For Saber's part, her feelings towards Shirou are a mixture of exasperation and slight empathy. She has no romantic attachment whatsoever to Shirou at this point, and there is no evidence that such an attachment will occur (based on the anime so far). She regards Shirou as her Master, but refers to him as inexperienced (frequently) and is often irritated with how he seems to treat her (ref: pretty much every episode featuring Saber). Her relationship with him, on her part, is purely professional.

Shirou's feelings towarads Saber are more complex, but are still not that intense. There is no point in the anime, for instance, where Shirou shows Saber the degree of affection that he does to Sakura. He shows concern, certainly, especially during the Berserker fight, and during almost every incidence in which Saber might be involved in combat. This attitude stems from his chivalrous (what people are calling chauvanistic) interpretation of his role in the Holy Grail War. Shirou sees it as his role to be the 'warrior' type - which Saber naturally finds irritating, as she sees it as her role. Shirou's view is definitely coloured by the Berserker/Saber battle, it occurs in each flashback when he considers summoning Saber to assist him. (ref: everywhere!). He is constantly worrying that Saber will be hurt - but no more so than he worries about Shinji (before he finds out that Shinji is evil, twisted, and just plain ol'nasty), or Issei. Saber is evolving to the position of friend to Shirou - he cares about her safety, he makes sure she's eating, etc, but there are no flashes of 'star-cross'd lovers' happening in the actual show so far. That said I will admit that there is a possibility of it in the future, but I maintain for the moment that such feeling would not occur on Saber's part. At present, Shirou's feelings towards Saber are deepening - to friendship in my interpretation, perhaps companionship. Saber's feelings are likewise deepening to Shirou (ref: episode 9, the talk with Rin) but she seems to be coming more towards feelings of 'acceptance' than towards feelings of love for Shirou. Respect, admiration, perhaps (eventually) but not love. (I will possibly change this after episode 10, depending on the context of the 'screenshot' from the preview. Stay tuned~).

Yes, I'm aware of the various options offered for Saber/Shirou love references (on Shirou's part). Specifically, addressing the 'Saber's a girl' theory (which seems to be that Shirou is blinded to the fact that she is a warrior simply because she is a woman), I refer to my previous paragraph. He's evolving to a platonic position here, where he has respect for Saber and he cares for her (this is evident, and obvious), but no actual romantic thought is overtly (or seriously subversively) placed within the show. It's possible that it will be there. But we can't really see it yet. As to Saber's beauty when she appears - yes, he was awestruck. Has noone ever here been amazed at the beauty/handsomness of a random person before (which is what Saber kinda was at the time) without feeling romantic love? I certainly have felt a 'wow!' thought, and have then not followed through with it - heck, even when I've encountered someone random and then they've become a friend after the fact does not imply or necessitate relationship material. But I digress.

Now thirdly, Rin and Shirou. Both the blindingly obvious, and the (somewhat) veiled. There are references to this relationship occurring in every single episode they are both in. I could point out them all, but that would take... well, about five hours of watching, plus writing time. So five hours and five minutes. And it's late here. But here's the major ones that I remember (off the top of my head, actual episode numbers may be, oh, somewhat fluid).

Episode 1 - Shirou's crush on Rin is rather obvious here. Episode 2, Rin's reaction to it being Shirou who was dead, and not a random bystander (and her dialogue in particular). Episode 2 (again) Rin's discussion with Archer, when he points out the 'waste' of the jewel (Rin's reaction) and when he points out that Lancer will try to kill Shirou again (look of horror on Rin's face). Episode 3, Rin actually helping an opponent (she has no scruples against any other opponent). Episode 4, Rin's very possessive attitude towards Shirou (tea bag reference), the fact that she brought him home. Episode 5, Rin's encounter with Shirou in the corridor (both of their reactions, Shirou facial, Rin flasback and dialogue), and the 'fight scene' that ensues and continues into Episode 6. As I said in the discussion threads for those episodes, she is justifying herself to Archer in regards to her comments... but actions speak louder than words. Episode 7, basically... the entire episode. Highlights being the rooftop scenes - both of them, the first one more so Rin (facial expression, tone), the second one more so Shirou (his character is what I would describe as gently compassionate, understanding in both tone and facial, as well as word choice - oh, and the buying drinks thing ) - Rin's reaction to Shirou saying she seems like she's caring about him as they say goodnight at the gates. Episode 8 just hammers certain things home - note how more anxious Shirou is about having Rin under his roof than he was Saber (he seems a might defensive about the whole thing), and note the easy familiarity Rin is adopting around Shirou - this is continued into episode 9)

The easy familiarity that Rin and Shirou are adopting as they go through is far more that of a 'couple' than either Saber & Shirou, or Sakura & Shirou. Note though, that neither Rin nor Shirou would currently consider themselves a couple in any sense (other than their alliance) and both of them would probably disavow any feelings for each other if pressed for open discourse about it - Rin probably blushing and somewhat indignation, Shirou defensively and drawing back. And this kind of reaction simply nails the coffin lid tighter - there are feelings there on both sides (surprisingly, or perhaps not, more evident on Rin's side, at least affectionate feelings) but both are, well, teenagers, and both are in a rather vulnerable position comparative to each other (.... guess ) and to their peers/companions (Sakura, Saber, Archer, Fuji-nee, Issei, etc)

For the moment, I am kind of adopting a 'wait and see' attitude, but until something changes, the most reasonable, logical, and textually supported relationship is that evolving between Rin and Shirou. Sakura was dismissed after the first five minutes of the show (as relationship fodder at any rate), and the support for Saber/Shirou as a relationship is not there (in romantic, not yet) and is far inferior to both the explicit and implicit support for Rin/Shirou. I acknowledge that we are only nine episodes in, less than halfway through the show. Anything, presumably, could happen. But on the evidence of the moment, meaning the show evidence in character interaction, dialogue, tone, facial expression, and actions, it is most likely that if a romantic relationship specifically evolves within the context of Fate/stay night, it will be one between Rin and Shirou.

Thank you everyone who read this far... I got carried away. ^_^

Best wishes all,


-Andiyar
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Old 2006-03-09, 13:55   Link #248
Decagon
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Tch. You should write your own story


It'd probably be a good read.
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Old 2006-03-09, 14:02   Link #249
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i read it all! and i agree w/ your speculations...
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Old 2006-03-09, 15:24   Link #250
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justinstrife
idof: That's nice about how well u do in sports with skill over determination, but there's other factors involved too. Luck, natural ability, circumstance, ect. Someone with less skill can defeat a more skilled opponent with those other factors involved. Skill doesn't get you through 100% of the time. It's just not possible. There's an old west saying,"I'd rather be lucky than good." You'll find that quote has alot of truth to it. Skill will get you through most things, but Luck and circumstance can get you through the rest. And as 'outdated' as my thinking is, how much of your logic on my thinking, opinion? The feminist movement was huge in the United states in the 20th century, yet we're only finding out now, that at least half of what that movement taught women, was flawed. Women are more sensitive in general to child raising. They generally are happier taking care of the kids, and relying more on the male to make the majority of the bread earning(recent studies done in the U.S. just this past month), women excel on average in certain academic subjects better than men, and vice versa. Men and women are not equal. We have our own strengths and weaknesses that inherently make it so that we will never be completely equal. It's how God made us, and it shows up in everything that we do.
I would rather be skilled then relying on luck, plus luck can be caculated in statistics, the higher your skill the more luck you will have. In professional sports its Very rare that a player wins on luck. Plus I would not put my life on the line relying on only luck as a defense (Shirous habit these days). I'm not religious so I won't say anything about the God part, but I think those who believe in such things as fate or destiny are ulter weaklings who just say "its fate" or "its destined to be this way" (Have you heared that idiot US skier in the olypmics comment? "If only the other three guys had been slower I would have gotten a metal") He lacked skill and no ammount of luck could give him victory. what we do is up to us and like i said, I will freely admit that there are many woman that are physically stronger or more capable then I. you can accomplish anything if you have power, weither it be protecting like shirou or destroying.

on a side note more on topic: which storyline do you guys think the anime is headed towards as of ep nine, Fate, UBW or Heavens Feel. Given the recent trend I think its headed towards Fate (Tsukihime anime headed for Arcs end) so I'm guessing they are headed for the true end of Fate/Stay Night in the anime as well.
PS I assume that almost everyone here knows the origine of the anime.
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Old 2006-03-09, 15:56   Link #251
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@andiyar

Great analysis. You rock!

@idofgrahf

True, in real life is very better rely on skills than luck, but i believe the luck treated here is more like that stats used on RPGs. In other words, the luck used in FSN is more useful and more relliable, helping the character to hit more frequently, make more damage, avoiding atacks or even taking less damage when fighting enemies.

Take for instance the fighting between Saber and Lancer in Episode 03. He used his ultimate atack, Gae Bolg, on her. An unavoidable who pierces the enemies's hearts automactly, causing instant death. There's no defense against this atack... except by Luck. Saber has one of the best Luck stats of the anime/game, so she avoided the atack, turning the impossible possible.

As for which scenario they will follow, i don't know because i never played F/SN (but i want to sooo much _). It'
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Old 2006-03-09, 16:00   Link #252
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@andiyar

Great analysis. You rock!

@idofgrahf

True, in real life is very better rely on skills than luck, but i believe the luck treated here is more like that stats used on RPGs. In other words, the luck used in FSN is more useful and more relliable, helping the character to hit more frequently, make more damage, avoiding atacks or even taking less damage when fighting enemies.

Take for instance the figh between Saber and Lancer in Episode 03. He used his ultimate atack, Gae Bolg, on her. An unavoidable atack who pierces the enemies's hearts automactly, causing instant death. There's no defense against this... except by Luck. Saber has one of the best Luck stats of the anime/game, so she avoided the atack, turning the impossible possible.

As for which scenario they will follow, i don't know because i never played F/SN (but i want soooo much _). It's true they followed the Arcueid True ending on TSUKIHIME, but i had prefered they had followed the Arcueid Good Ending or Ciel Good Ending, because...

Spoiler:
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Old 2006-03-09, 16:01   Link #253
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Ugh. doubled post. Sorry!!
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Old 2006-03-09, 16:01   Link #254
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Ugh. doubled post. Sorry!!
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Old 2006-03-09, 19:11   Link #255
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PGilis
@andiyar

Great analysis. You rock!

@idofgrahf


Take for instance the fighting between Saber and Lancer in Episode 03. He used his ultimate atack, Gae Bolg, on her. An unavoidable who pierces the enemies's hearts automactly, causing instant death. There's no defense against this atack... except by Luck. Saber has one of the best Luck stats of the anime/game, so she avoided the atack, turning the impossible possible.

As for which scenario they will follow, i don't know because i never played F/SN (but i want to sooo much _). It'
I believe saber was able to deflect it to an extend that and there is no attack that is invinceble, with maybe the exception of Arcs marble Phantasm but no one in F/SN to my knowldge has that ability. Luck isn't exactly a defense, and i doubt they go by game stats in the anime.
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Old 2006-03-09, 20:27   Link #256
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Spoiler for short explaination for Gae Bolga:
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Old 2006-03-09, 20:47   Link #257
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Spoiler for which game ending?:


Oh, and I don't think I've heard of a character actively participating in F/SN who can match Arcueid's full strength.
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Old 2006-03-09, 21:03   Link #258
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Quote:
Originally Posted by idofgrahf
I believe saber was able to deflect it to an extend that and there is no attack that is invinceble, with maybe the exception of Arcs marble Phantasm but no one in F/SN to my knowldge has that ability. Luck isn't exactly a defense, and i doubt they go by game stats in the anime.
You can't be anymore wrong with that post. Any amount of looking will show the results that she survived that ultimate attack BECAUSE of her extremely high luck statistics.

Luck can make you survive things that skill would have absolutely nothing to do. Hence why I'd rather be lucky than good. (I.E. freak accidents involving things far out of your control)

I'll forever be upset with Tsukihime's ending in that it should have gone with a Good Arc ending damnit! I was upset for days(though the show had nowhere near the emotional drain that KGNE induced on me even though I got my ending)
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Old 2006-03-09, 21:24   Link #259
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actually luck can win over skills (though not all the time, there is a limit to it).

eg. i once played a game of blackgammon (game that requires both skill and technique, dice rolling) . the opponent was a complete idiot making sooo many mistakes. but his luck was such that i was never able to get the good dice roll. (actually its my luck that was terrible) so we were once in a situation that (you have to roll two dice) should i roll any combination except double six he is screwed and guess what i got.
just an example that luck sometimes outweighs technique
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Old 2006-03-09, 21:38   Link #260
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Yes luck can win over skills(sometimes), that why if you play some skillfull guy in some game and you win he says that "you got lucky," simple.
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