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Old 2006-03-06, 17:56   Link #1
Yogi
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[manga] In search of the ultimate jutsu

First Some facts about Ninja Combat.

1)Ninja are fast. They rely on speed to attack, and even Genjutsus specialist Jounins are able to effortlessly blitz a Taijutau specialist Genin. Kakashi felt highly threatened because of Itachi's jutsu speed. Speed helped Rock Lee humiliate Sasuke. Speed Kills.
2)Ninja are good at avoiding attacks. Besides just regular dodging, any time a ninja is hit with something, half the time it turns out to be a Bunshin of some type, or a Kawamari. This happens even to very skilled ninja like Orochimaru. Hence, there is no good way to make sure that any given hit will connect with your target.
3)Ninja are not especially tough. Sure there are exceptions like Jiroubou or Orochimaru, but most ninja would be toast really quickly if they decided to tank the enemy attacks. Some of them hare good damage soaks, but most of them rely on getting out of the way in a hurry, or using some other jutsu to block them.


From these facts, we can extrapolate on what the ideal jutsu should be.

1)It should be fast, both fast to aim and fast to execute. Otherwise, the opponent would have already pulled out his attack.
2)It shouldn't put everything into a few attacks. It's embarrassing to pump a massive amount of chakra into an attack, only to find out you wasted it on a Bunshin.
3)It should affect a large area. That makes it harder for the enemy to dodge.
4)Ideally, one should have the option to focus the attack on a small area, so that people with high defense levels can be hurt.


In this new contexts, moves like the Rasengan and Chidori don't look so good anymore. They drain too much power, and have too short a range. While they're pretty good against a high defense enemy like Gaara, they suck against pretty much everyone else. Kabuto's chakra scalpels and the Jyuuken are better, since it damages over a longer period of time. High level Katon jutsus can affect a large area and can be launched quickly, but they pale in comparison to the truly massive attacks like the Kirikiri Mai and the Chouji Squash.

In short, what are supposed to be the ultimate attacks in Naruto really aren't that useful.
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Old 2006-03-06, 18:12   Link #2
Mr. Johnny 5
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I think Oodama Rasengan would do the trick..

Fast, Large Area damage, instant kill
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Old 2006-03-06, 18:12   Link #3
Illuyankas
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That's because, in all honesty Naruto is not about ninjas. Yes, they call themselves ninjas, but they're not, they're just mercenaries with a theatrical bent. The 'super' jutsus are indeed good attacks - for a simple brawl. I know why they did it, a historically accurate ninja series wouldn't be this entertaining, but it's all for dramatic purposes, so it's pretty reasonable considering the storied background.

Where was I going with this again?
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Old 2006-03-06, 18:19   Link #4
Mr. Johnny 5
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The best character that would define a ninja would be...either Gaara or Itachi.

They speak not much...are fast and deadly. The other characters make too much jokes and talk too much.

Lee is probably best choice since he uses real tools shurikens, kunai's and taijutsu.
He can be very fast and deadly..
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Old 2006-03-06, 18:37   Link #5
Hunter
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I tend to agree with your points exept for the #3.
Not for technical reason but because shonen wise the large one usually aren't those working.

Tsunade's superstrenght makes a good job except for the #3.
MS jutsu lack the #2
Chouji Squash also lack #1 & 2 for the moment

I kind of doubt that the Kirikiri Mai doesn't use a vast amount of Chakra, in fact this jutsu being a diviance of Kimi's bloodline due to the CS lvl 2 it had to use a shitload of it so lack #2.

Last edited by Hunter; 2006-03-06 at 19:04.
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Old 2006-03-06, 18:48   Link #6
Ero-Senn1n
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You should categorize it on the base of who is/are the opponent(s).
For the ultimate power I think there are two categories:
1, the mass destruction jutsu masters who can take on entire villages and armies of ninja.
2, the 1on1 masters.

As we saw the sannins are in the 1st category, they all had huge summons and powerful attacks against masses of ninja. Others like Sasori and Kisame are like that.

The 2nd category is the one of the sharingan, more exactly the 1on1 god Itachi. I think Itachi can take out all of the sannins individually but he would loose against big ninja armies that a sannin could take out.

And the two main heroes will be like that I think: Naruto the loud hero, the one who already has the power of Kyuubi for mas destruction. And Sasuke the smart one who will have the ultimate 1on1 ability: the MS. I think they could be the ultimate fighting duo, something like currently Itachi and Kisame but in a stronger version.

Yondaime and Sandaime were somewhat an exception, they had both mass destruction and 1on1 powers. Sandaime had his fire and earth mass destruction jutsu, but his boss summon was a small one which is much better in 1on1. For Yondaime we all know he had a boss summon, he had his special jutsu to take out an entire army. And finally the death god jutsu which makes him invincible in 1on1 if he accepts to give up his life. Of course such a suicidal jutsu is not so good but from the viewpoint of the bad guys it's a godlike jutsu. The evil guy knows that Yondaime will use the death god jutsu if he has to, so he will not attack Yondaime, it's like the nuclear weapons, something that destroys both sides so guys like Itachi would not attack him even if Itachi could maybe win against Yondaime in 1on1.

If we look at what a ninja is supposed to be: a fighter who has to do missions secretly, so do it fast and quitely, that the answer clearly is Itachi with his MS jutsu or Yondaime with his transportation->instant kill jutsu. They can take out anybody in a second, it's the power of the real ninja.
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Old 2006-03-06, 21:01   Link #7
s-class uchiha
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I will agree w/ Ero-Sennin that yes those are the 2 main destructive/offensive type jutsu and expand a bit

that what's best depends on the situation like a massive destructive are crazy 1 on 1 offensive strike wouldn't help against Narutos kamehameha You would need a defensive type jutsu

Like at the chuunin exam if you wanted everyone asleep at the same time to get the Hokage, a chidori to your neighbors face or gamabunta aint gonna help too much.

Qs for ero-sennin:

You mean that Yondaime and Itachi's natural style is "stealthy" right? Not that the san-nin can't be nor that Itachi couldn't be a WMD!
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Old 2006-03-06, 21:02   Link #8
Luminion Lancer
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If there was such a thing as an "Ultimate Jutsu" then there would be no need for other skills or people, just those who know that U.J. I think that what you should ask instead is what would be the "Best Team", "Best Combo", or better yet "Best Strategy" for a particular situation. Remember everything has a weak point, it is the law of the mortal realm. If something is considered perfect, without faults, then it would have to be God (Godly). (Note: This is what Descatres claims).

Let me give you an example of a technique that I created.
Jutsu: "Ninpou: Kage Kerai" (lit: Ninja Arts, Shadow Servant).
Effect: The user creates a single clone from his shadow and then the user switches places into the cone's own shadow. The clone has 1/5 the power of the user and will not disperse as long as the user feeds it chakra. While inside the shadow the user cannot be hurt by normal means until the jutsu is dispeled.

This is what you might call a great technique. It make the user seemingly invincible except for 1 thing, the high chakra cost and the jutsu's constant draining of it. As such, only a person with a high chakra capacity (i.e: Naruto) could best use this technique. See my point. The jutsu are only as good as the ninja that use them.
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Old 2006-03-07, 10:24   Link #9
Rurik
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Well, Yogi, Those conditions make its hard to come up with the ultimate jutsu...

I have seen that the Jutsus that covers a large area of Destructions, or are very powerful use a huge amount of Chakra, I think that in order to have a ultimate Jutsu, it should consume a above average amount of Chakra, but I was thinking on
Spoiler for the manga:


We are throwing names in this thread, and this does not even have a Manga Tag.

Last edited by Rurik; 2006-03-07 at 10:47.
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Old 2006-03-07, 11:23   Link #10
Yogi
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I was actually thinking of Gaara's sand as the ultimate in jutsus, but the thing Uchiha_Rurik mensioned is also good, especially if it can hide in other shadows or extend their range.

Even when fighting one on one, area of effect rules. For example, Kakashi charges a Chidori and charges an opponent. The opponent counters with a Katon jutsu. Kakashi can't easily dodge a mass of fire, nor can he block it with his forearm. He'd have to break off his charge to Kawamari or make a long detour around the fire. Compare this to someone who counters with a Rasengan. It's as rasy to dodge a Rasengan as it is to dodge a punch, so Kakashi can just avoid the attack if he's feeling lucky. Someone who counters with a longsword would actually be even more effective, as the sword swing covers a larger area than the Rasengan.
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Old 2006-03-07, 11:35   Link #11
Luminion Lancer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yogi
I was actually thinking of Gaara's sand as the ultimate in jutsus, but the thing Uchiha_Rurik mensioned is also good, especially if it can hide in other shadows or extend their range.

Even when fighting one on one, area of effect rules. For example, Kakashi charges a Chidori and charges an opponent. The opponent counters with a Katon jutsu. Kakashi can't easily dodge a mass of fire, nor can he block it with his forearm. He'd have to break off his charge to Kawamari or make a long detour around the fire. Compare this to someone who counters with a Rasengan. It's as rasy to dodge a Rasengan as it is to dodge a punch, so Kakashi can just avoid the attack if he's feeling lucky. Someone who counters with a longsword would actually be even more effective, as the sword swing covers a larger area than the Rasengan.
Gaara's jutsu, altough very effective at almost any situation, are very costly in terms of chakra even by Jinchuuriki standards. Then with Shikamaru's jutsu there's a fixed area where the shadows can strike. Again, limits have to be placed otherwise everything is just too cheap.

With Kakashi, he almost never uses the Chidori unless the oponent is disabled in terms of movement (Sasuke is the only one that uses it on moving targets). And doesn't Naruto know the new verison of Rasengan, the Oodama Rasengan, which cowers a rather large area even if it misses the target?
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Old 2006-03-07, 11:35   Link #12
Luminion Lancer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yogi
I was actually thinking of Gaara's sand as the ultimate in jutsus, but the thing Uchiha_Rurik mensioned is also good, especially if it can hide in other shadows or extend their range.

Even when fighting one on one, area of effect rules. For example, Kakashi charges a Chidori and charges an opponent. The opponent counters with a Katon jutsu. Kakashi can't easily dodge a mass of fire, nor can he block it with his forearm. He'd have to break off his charge to Kawamari or make a long detour around the fire. Compare this to someone who counters with a Rasengan. It's as rasy to dodge a Rasengan as it is to dodge a punch, so Kakashi can just avoid the attack if he's feeling lucky. Someone who counters with a longsword would actually be even more effective, as the sword swing covers a larger area than the Rasengan.
Gaara's jutsu, altough very effective at almost any situation, are very costly in terms of chakra even by Jinchuuriki standards. Then with Shikamaru's jutsu there's a fixed area where the shadows can strike. Again, limits have to be placed otherwise everything is just too cheap.

With Kakashi, he almost never uses the Chidori unless the oponent is disabled in terms of movement (Sasuke is the only one that uses it on moving targets). And doesn't Naruto know the new verison of Rasengan, the Oodama Rasengan, which cowers a rather large area even if it misses the target?
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Old 2006-03-07, 11:36   Link #13
Luminion Lancer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yogi
I was actually thinking of Gaara's sand as the ultimate in jutsus, but the thing Uchiha_Rurik mensioned is also good, especially if it can hide in other shadows or extend their range.

Even when fighting one on one, area of effect rules. For example, Kakashi charges a Chidori and charges an opponent. The opponent counters with a Katon jutsu. Kakashi can't easily dodge a mass of fire, nor can he block it with his forearm. He'd have to break off his charge to Kawamari or make a long detour around the fire. Compare this to someone who counters with a Rasengan. It's as rasy to dodge a Rasengan as it is to dodge a punch, so Kakashi can just avoid the attack if he's feeling lucky. Someone who counters with a longsword would actually be even more effective, as the sword swing covers a larger area than the Rasengan.
Gaara's jutsu, altough very effective at almost any situation, are very costly in terms of chakra even by Jinchuuriki standards. Then with Shikamaru's jutsu there's a fixed area where the shadows can strike. Again, limits have to be placed otherwise everything is just too cheap.

With Kakashi, he almost never uses the Chidori unless the oponent is disabled in terms of movement (Sasuke is the only one that uses it on moving targets). And doesn't Naruto know the new verison of Rasengan, the Oodama Rasengan, which cowers a rather large area even if it misses the target?
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Old 2006-03-07, 11:38   Link #14
Luminion Lancer
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Sorry about the repeat post, something srewed up the computer here. I don't know how to remove the other post, can someone help me with that?
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Old 2006-03-07, 14:47   Link #15
Rurik
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KatonMakai
With Kakashi, he almost never uses the Chidori unless the oponent is disabled in terms of movement (Sasuke is the only one that uses it on moving targets).
Spoiler:

I will throw my opinion in a couple of thing here,

The first thing, I donít think Kakashi only uses Chidory when his opponent is unable to move, the Zabuza was an exception because the Dogs where used mostly for Finding Zabuza, also I think Kakashi immobilized Zabuza in order to avoid another mist concealment Jutsu.

Second The Chidory and Sharingan Combo its supposed to help Kakashi with the problem of Attacks that can be directed at him, In other words it could be possible that Kakashi can create the Chidory runs towards the opponent, and even if the opponent does the Katon Jutsu, he can adjust the path of his attack and still having a successful hit with the Chidory.

Then Your part where I tag with Spoiler
Spoiler:
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Old 2006-03-07, 16:21   Link #16
Yogi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KatonMakai
Gaara's jutsu, altough very effective at almost any situation, are very costly in terms of chakra even by Jinchuuriki standards. Then with Shikamaru's jutsu there's a fixed area where the shadows can strike. Again, limits have to be placed otherwise everything is just too cheap.
We don' know how much the jutsus cost, since Gaara just casually tosses around massive amoutns of sand. Even as a child he could toss around sand.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KatonMakai
With Kakashi, he almost never uses the Chidori unless the oponent is disabled in terms of movement (Sasuke is the only one that uses it on moving targets).
Well if you got your opponet immobalized, then you shouldn't need a technique like the Chidori anyway, just slit his throat with a Kunai. If you can immobalize your opponent, you've pretty much won anyway.

Besides, Kakashi was going to try it against Orochimaru. Under that circumstance Kakashi probably thought the Chidori was his best shot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uchiha_Rurik
Second The Chidory and Sharingan Combo its supposed to help Kakashi with the problem of Attacks that can be directed at him, In other words it could be possible that Kakashi can create the Chidory runs towards the opponent, and even if the opponent does the Katon Jutsu, he can adjust the path of his attack and still having a successful hit with the Chidory.
True, but that's not the power of the Chidori, but the power of the Sharingan to avoid counterattacks. The ability to avoid and dodge attacks is the same, whether you're using the Chidori, the Rasengan, a Katon jutsu, or a knife.
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Old 2006-03-07, 16:24   Link #17
Ero-Senn1n
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s-class uchiha
You mean that Yondaime and Itachi's natural style is "stealthy" right? Not that the san-nin can't be nor that Itachi couldn't be a WMD!
All the top level ninja can be stealthy but it seems that Itachi and Yondaime have some ultimate jutsu.
Yondaime could
Spoiler:

As for Itachi he just looks at somebody with hi MS jutsu and the guy dies in an instant, after that he can disappear. Also just two things about his stealthyness:
- in every situation when somebody aproached him or was hiding he was the first to notice, it seems like he cannot be surprised
- he could infiltrate Konoha quite easily, being a genjutsu master he can make people fall asleep, he can make people think they are in love ( the girl with Jiraiya) or anything he wants.

Others are also great but I think these two stand out a little bit.
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Old 2006-03-07, 16:50   Link #18
Rurik
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yogi
True, but that's not the power of the Chidori, but the power of the Sharingan to avoid counterattacks. The ability to avoid and dodge attacks is the same, whether you're using the Chidori, the Rasengan, a Katon jutsu, or a knife.
Ok I got you there, Just forgot for a moment there, that we are talking just about the Jutsu itself, But then we should exclude any Jutsu that requires Byakugan to be performed...Don't you think?
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Old 2006-03-07, 17:08   Link #19
Hunter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yogi
We don' know how much the jutsus cost, since Gaara just casually tosses around massive amoutns of sand. Even as a child he could toss around sand.
Not really casually, when Gaara got serious against Kimimaro and started to use really impressive jutsu like the Sand avalanche he tired quite fast despite being a jinchuuriki.
Spoiler:


I don't think there is an ultimate jutsu in every reguard for the moment. The most powerful jutsu are usually double edged or at least use much chakra because if that wasn't the case their user would be godlike.
I mean for example, imagine an Amaterasu with a really huge area of effect like all what Itachi sees if he wants to, no chakra cost and working at short to long distance. Or Kakashi's jutsu with easy aims and infinite shots. Or Baika no jutsu without side effect neither size's limits.

That just becomes way too ridiculously powerful.
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Old 2006-03-07, 18:35   Link #20
Yogi
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Well, obviously there won't be a jutsu that hits ALL the points. However, my point i that what are supposed to be the super moves (Rasengan, Chidori, the Mangekyou Sharingan moves) only fit one or two categories while other "lesser" moves are more effective.
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