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Old 2006-03-07, 08:48   Link #21
brightman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinji103
But really, it isn't proven that Char is wrong in his belief. He believed that as long as Oldtypes exist, there will always be war. Well, in F-91 and V, there were still Oldtypes around. Worse, the Oldtypes were running things. And guess what? Wars started up. Just because Spacenoids started the wars doesn't mean that wars won't stop if Oldtypes all become Newtypes, since we've never gotten to see all Oldtypes be turned into Newtypes.
Huh? But does that make any sense? Spacenoids are moving into space but aren't becoming Newtypes. In fact they are turning out to be worse than the so-called "Oldtypes", and have all forgotten the idea of Newtypes. So how's it the case that they will evolve?

And really, does Char have *any* logical PROOF whatsoever that humans really evolve into Newtypes as they move into space, such that it is worthwhile to KILL everyone on Earth to fulfill that objective??? Sure, he sees that a bunch of guys like himself are turning into mutant psychic freaks, but is there ANY concrete proof at all that as a whole, the Spacenoids are *evolving*? Judging from what happens to the population of Newtypes in F91 and Victory, the answer is a solid NO. And that by itself shows just how nuts the guy is to kill everyone on Earth because he believes in a baseless theory.

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It just goes to show that Spacenoids found the governing by Oldtypes to be very unsatisfactory, to say the least.
That's wrong. The Crossbone Vanguard, Jupiter Empire, and Zanscare Empire were all started by power-hungry dictators who want to rule the world. None of them have been dissatisfied with anything, especially when you consider how all are much worse they were than the EFF, and none of them gave a crap about Newtypes (heck the Zanscare outright exploited them into making a good name for themselves).
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Old 2006-03-07, 13:52   Link #22
Shinji103
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That does make sense, because how can you say Char's plan never would have wokred if you have no evidence to base that claim off of? Char said wars will continue as long as Oldtypes exist. Oldtypes exist in F-91 and V. Because Spacenoids are unsatisfied and even hate the way the Oldtypes of the Federation run things, people like Iron Mask and Kagatie can easily round up people to wage war against the Federation. It's not that people aren't becoming Newtypes, it's that Oldtypes continue to try and govern over the Newtypes when they're just a bunch of lazy slobs. Spacenoids don't like this. They never did.

Do you have any logical *proof* that Char is wrong? Nope. All you can say is that he's wrong for putting into motion a plan that would kill a lot of people. You can't say "wars won't end even if Char makes everyone Newtypes," just by saying "lots of people would be killed in his plan." Those two statements in the end aren't connected.

Char said that if his plan succeeded in forcing people into space resulting in everyone becoming Newtypes, wars would end. Char's plan of forcing everyone into space was never actually put into action since Amuro stopped him before he could even actually force people off earth. And what do we have later? More war.

Those power-hunry dictators can't fight wars all by their lonesomes. They need armies. Made up of people who fight for them. Those soldiers won't fight simply because a person wants more power. They'll fight for him if they believe he can offer a better way of life and/or bring strength to humanity, etc. Meaning they don't believe the current government is sufficient in accomplishing this. Hence, they are unsatisified with the current government, the Earth Federation.


EDIT: My, how we've gotten here.
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Last edited by Shinji103; 2006-03-07 at 15:13.
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Old 2006-03-07, 20:05   Link #23
brightman
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Sorry, my full reply before is as follows... I think it answers your response a bit. I couldn't edit my post when the forum went down this morning:

---

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinji103
But really, it isn't proven that Char is wrong in his belief. He believed that as long as Oldtypes exist, there will always be war. Well, in F-91 and V, there were still Oldtypes around. Worse, the Oldtypes were running things. And guess what? Wars started up. Just because Spacenoids started the wars doesn't mean that wars won't stop if Oldtypes all become Newtypes, since we've never gotten to see all Oldtypes be turned into Newtypes.
Huh? But does that make any sense? Spacenoids are moving into space but aren't becoming Newtypes. In fact they are turning out to be worse than the so-called "Oldtypes", and have all forgotten the idea of Newtypes. So how's it the case that they will evolve?

And really, does Char have *any* logical PROOF whatsoever that humans really evolve into Newtypes as they move into space, such that it is worthwhile to KILL everyone on Earth to fulfill that objective??? Sure, he sees that a bunch of guys like himself are turning into mutant psychic freaks, but is there ANY concrete proof at all that as a whole, the Spacenoids are *evolving*? Judging from what happens to the population of Newtypes in F91 and Victory, the answer is a solid NO.

Furthermore, is there *any* indication from what we've seen in UC that Newtypes = peace? The answer is even more of a resounding NO. As shown multiple times with someone like Haman, a Newtype is still human, and no matter how much "understanding" they reach with others, they still have personal ambition. Furthermore, Newtypes have only been shown to be useful for warfare, and we even had Newtypes using other Newtypes for war (Char was a big example of this, of course). So what happens if only Newtypes are left? Peace? Hell no.

And that by itself shows just how nuts the guy is to kill everyone on Earth because he believes in a baseless theory. He's just another one of those dictators who have a personal bias and hate against a particular race and wants to forcibly exterminate them. So he's really no different from, say, Patrick Zala.

After all, when someone say, "The obstacle to peace are the Christians/Muslims/Jews/whatever... Lets slaughter and convert them all and we'll have eternal peace in this world" you really should automatically think that they are nuts. You really shouldn't get the reaction that you are getting. Otherwise, IMO you're nuts as well.
---

So to make a long answer short, Char is making a baseless theory that could be either right or wrong. But nevertheless, he's still willing to kill billions of people to test the farfetched theory that mankind can stop fighting each other. And IMO, that's just one messed up move.

Quote:
EDIT: My, how we've gotten here.
I know... Maybe the Mr Paper can do something about that (delete... Or move?)
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Old 2006-03-07, 20:38   Link #24
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Brightman hit the nail on the head, a majority of people moved to space, btu weren't newtypes. Thats the flaw, a lot fo people in space weren't newtypes. by chars logic that means everyone in space should be newtypes, but they weren't. A large majority of his own forces weren't newtypes infact i recall Gyunei mentioning the scaresness fo newtypes at the time.

the federation's only reall corrupt act was taxing the colonies, most of the colonies that reblled were forces that already had thier own autonomay. (sorry if i spelled it wrong) Zeon, Crossbone Vangaurd was pretty much ignored by the top EFF brass. well forced to ignore them by jupitor. Same with Zansacare, excpet they allowed them too much freedom, i might even say in teh direction of appeasement.

they wanted the earth for themselves. pretyy much.
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Old 2006-03-14, 09:04   Link #25
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Last I remember, Kamille wasn't doing much of anything after ZZ...moving included.
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Old 2006-03-14, 09:06   Link #26
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Kamille just has the trauma part for the rest of zz
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Old 2006-03-14, 09:15   Link #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aeriolewinters
Kamille just has the trauma part for the rest of zz
Still inferior to what he was anyway. He wouldn't do much.
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Old 2006-03-22, 22:12   Link #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DropDeadEd
Last I remember, Kamille wasn't doing much of anything after ZZ...moving included.
He was running down the beach w/ Fa in the final ep of ZZ IIRC, but yeah he was pretty comatose thru most of the series.

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Old 2006-03-23, 03:41   Link #29
maohayato
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he wasn't comatose through the whole zz show.

we get to see him runaway,
help judau locate puru through long range newtype communication,
warn judau about the danger of psycho gundam mk2(also with mind communication),
run around saying:"the sky is falling"
and finally we see him and Fa running with a smile at the end.
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Old 2006-07-31, 05:30   Link #30
misbehave
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Kamille did appear in a UC side story comic called the Moon Crisis in 0099.
He has become a medical doctor in Von Brown City on the moon and helping saving people during the moon crisis.
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Old 2006-07-31, 06:14   Link #31
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I'd hate to bring up the Char topic again but this is exactly like Destiny(as horrible as it was...) but what if Dillundal got his way with the Destiny Plan? Sure he wasn't dropping colonies but basically forcing his beliefs on to everyone by the end of the series with his army. I think the Destiny plan is worse than Char forcing Earthnoids into space~
One thing I learnt from the Gundam series is that War is inevitable, and yeah, I believe that Bright is right by his argument(s).

It'd be a hard call to see Camille in it, I think hes more fond of Char(Quattro) than Amuro but I'm pretty sure he would stand against his plan.
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Old 2006-07-31, 06:20   Link #32
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Well, in SRW Alpha 2, though reluctant, Kamille was still part of Alpha Numbers and fought against Char. Then he felt really bad after Char dies, until the middle of SRW Alpha 3.
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Last edited by C.A.; 2006-07-31 at 06:37.
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Old 2006-07-31, 06:54   Link #33
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i do wonder who kamille would side with. he did agree with char in zeta gundam but he does respect amuro. like gebra said he'd be between a rock and a hard place.
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Old 2006-08-02, 14:50   Link #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C.A.
Well, in SRW Alpha 2, though reluctant, Kamille was still part of Alpha Numbers and fought against Char. Then he felt really bad after Char dies, until the middle of SRW Alpha 3.
I'm almost at that scenario. 5 more stages until the end of Alpha 2 for me on Kusuha's route. In Alpha 2 pretty much every major Gundam Villain aside from Haman join's with Neo Zeon to make sure that the asteroid drop is successful. Although not Canon its pretty damning for your cause when the likes of Yazan Gable, Rakan Dakaran and Cima Garahau are on your side.
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Old 2006-08-02, 21:26   Link #35
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Too bad Ideon wasn't in Alpha 2 lol, in F Final I think Ideon blew up some colonies, if I remembered correctly.

Yazan and his buddies reappeared as an Earth Alliance/Blue Cosmos unit in the final Orb battle under Azrael's orders to kill Uzumi Nala Atha. Kamille was like 'What the heck!?', then pulled out the Zeta. It was then, he ended his depression, when he saw that everyone is working hard to defend Orb, even Dearka and Athrun.
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Old 2006-08-02, 21:31   Link #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C.A.
Too bad Ideon wasn't in Alpha 2 lol, in F Final I think Ideon blew up some colonies, if I remembered correctly.

Yazan and his buddies reappeared as an Earth Alliance/Blue Cosmos unit in the final Orb battle under Azrael's orders to kill Uzumi Nala Atha. Kamille was like 'What the heck!?', then pulled out the Zeta. It was then, he ended his depression, when he saw that everyone is working hard to defend Orb, even Dearka and Athrun.
:
this statement without knowledge of SRW3 will become a truly bad fanfic
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Old 2006-08-02, 21:36   Link #37
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lol and only Banpresto can pull off such a phenomenal feat of transforming a patchwork of storylines into a masterpiece.

Too bad this topic is only on Kamille, I can't mention too much about Amuro and Char meeting Ginganam in Turn X, Raww in Providence and such.
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Old 2006-08-03, 00:13   Link #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dom33
i do wonder who kamille would side with. he did agree with char in zeta gundam but he does respect amuro. like gebra said he'd be between a rock and a hard place.
If Camille were to pick a side, he'd undoubtedly side against Char. While he did have a certain amount of respect for Quattro, he's extremely unlikely to side with someone who would commit mass slaughter just to fulfill some sort of demented vision.
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Old 2006-08-03, 05:56   Link #39
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lol and only Banpresto can pull off such a phenomenal feat of transforming a patchwork of storylines into a masterpiece.

Too bad this topic is only on Kamille, I can't mention too much about Amuro and Char meeting Ginganam in Turn X, Raww in Providence and such.
That sounds very interesting....dam i would like to see what Char would say to Rau. I dont usually play th SRWs...but are the games actually related storyline wise? Or is every episode in its own continuity?
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Old 2006-08-03, 06:22   Link #40
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Originally Posted by jonli
That sounds very interesting....dam i would like to see what Char would say to Rau. I dont usually play th SRWs...but are the games actually related storyline wise? Or is every episode in its own continuity?
Yes, there's actually continuity, even more so with the OGs. What's with Balsomething Empire something? My Japanese sucks.

It essentially plays out like arcs, where they focus on variable storylines of particular series they chose to focus in and mishmash extra baddies into the story. The main villians are essentially the Empire.

And Char is gone, since the CCA storyline in Alpha....which was it again deems him dead. I wish he was persuadable though. A Sazabi in Alpha 3 just doesn't feel right without Char at helm. And damn, I wish Raww was persuadable. His phscyo sides and Cobray Gordon's funny super-robotish name calling with a real robotish tone and....the man inside Cobray were the only ones I can truly watch over and over again without stop.
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