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Old 2006-03-28, 00:05   Link #81
Luminion Lancer
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-For me, if Sasuke was to redeem himself then he would have to do it on his death hour. I'm not saying this as a person who uterly dispises him but what I am proposing is that Sasuke at the very least deserves an honoreable death, one that fits a warrior/ninja. If Sasuke is anything like the DBZ Vegeta (this is assumed knowing the fact that Kishimoto is a fan of DBZ) then it would make for an impresive moment. With death the body and soul separate themselves and the sins, the shame, the pain that the person experienced in their life is washed away. Yeah, I guess that would make for a good redemption for him.
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Old 2006-03-28, 06:49   Link #82
dom33
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i hope he's in too deep, besides sence when do ninja villages accept back missing nins? as we learned in the zabuza arc once you betray your village you can't go back, and hunter-nins see to that.
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Old 2006-03-28, 08:20   Link #83
Rurik
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sazelyt
As I said that is my perception. But, to give the points that made me think so, let's go with the manga. Orochimaru said that he threw her away. She wasn't the one who left him first according to Oro. We can assume that the cursed seal most probably took place after Oro left Konoha. And the chances for the subordinate following his master at that time is quite high especially if that person's friend (Jiraiya) also did a similar thing. Anko also said, regarding the person whom Oro gave the cursed seal, "you must really like that kid". So, in Anko's perception, he must have liked Anko back then. You normally wouldn't hate a person whom you think likes you, would you? Oro also said "jealous are we". Why would he say that?
First, Why should the curse seal take place after He left the village? Oro left Konoha alone, that is a current fact,(Apart that Oro was also developing the Kinjutsu in Konoha, the real purpose of the CS)and the way he left Konoha was not something that would had give him time to get every thing he needed, including taking ANKO with him, and Oro’s Personality dictates that he would had left Konoha without ANKO, that’s the first contradiction.

Second, Oro was alone with Jiraya after his scape, no ANKO on the scene or close to it, Second Contradiction.

Third, Oro said he threw Anko away, when this could have being perfectly done before his escape form Konoha, How?..Let see, This simple, “Kukuku..ANKO, you are not of my need anymore, I’m not interested, bye”, There is nothing wrong, if we placed this After or Before he left Konoha, it can be placed in any moment, not just after he left it.


4th, When ANKO mentioned “You must really like that Kid”, is not that he liked him, rather that he wanted something from them, I don’t know what it was in the case of Anko, For Sasuke we do know what it is, For Oro, they are just means to get something.

5th And Oro said, “Jealous are we?”, I find this funny coming from you, when you have defended your points before saying that Oro should not be trustworthy on what he say, Oro was just being himself, sarcastic to say the least.

Your perception is not wrong, rather that your theories have too many holes to place it as the most likely over the one that say Oro fled Konoha alone with no ANKO and Until there is something in the manga that can prove your point, you are just contradicting what we know.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Sazelyt
I am not saying that Sasuke is an angel, he is indeed a traitor because of making a deal with Oro. But, as long as he decides to go back to Konoha without giving any harm to Konoha, he will deserve to be forgiven - because of his past and because of the people who believe him. Until that point, he will be pursued to be saved rather than killed by the people who still believe in him. Neither Itachi nor Oro had the same qualities when they left Konoha - they were already criminals. And, lastly, CS is not a reason to consider someone as evil, since Anko is a trusted jounin who carries the same seal.
But, as I said, The point here is not that Konoha would not forgive him, is the fact that as we have being told this type of ninjas are disposed of, instead of being rescue to be reinserted by the village, there is no contradiction in your point, you are saying what Konoha will do, but that is totally different what it is done in this cases.

And then, the Curse seal is an Evil influence, but in this case ANKO’s Curse seal was suppressed, and She as shown did not relied on it.
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Old 2006-03-28, 09:45   Link #84
Kurapica
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I think he's irredeemable. He just went too far. The only reason he'll get to Konoha is due to plot-induced, inconsistent storytelling.
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Old 2006-03-28, 13:15   Link #85
Sazelyt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uchiha_Rurik
First, Why should the curse seal take place after He left the village? Oro left Konoha alone, that is a current fact,(Apart that Oro was also developing the Kinjutsu in Konoha, the real purpose of the CS)and the way he left Konoha was not something that would had give him time to get every thing he needed, including taking ANKO with him, and Oro’s Personality dictates that he would had left Konoha without ANKO, that’s the first contradiction.

Second, Oro was alone with Jiraya after his scape, no ANKO on the scene or close to it, Second Contradiction.

Third, Oro said he threw Anko away, when this could have being perfectly done before his escape form Konoha, How?..Let see, This simple, “Kukuku..ANKO, you are not of my need anymore, I’m not interested, bye”, There is nothing wrong, if we placed this After or Before he left Konoha, it can be placed in any moment, not just after he left it.


4th, When ANKO mentioned “You must really like that Kid”, is not that he liked him, rather that he wanted something from them, I don’t know what it was in the case of Anko, For Sasuke we do know what it is, For Oro, they are just means to get something.

5th And Oro said, “Jealous are we?”, I find this funny coming from you, when you have defended your points before saying that Oro should not be trustworthy on what he say, Oro was just being himself, sarcastic to say the least.

Your perception is not wrong, rather that your theories have too many holes to place it as the most likely over the one that say Oro fled Konoha alone with no ANKO and Until there is something in the manga that can prove your point, you are just contradicting what we know.
I guess Anko shown or not shown in the fight scene between Oro and Jiraiya does not invalidate what I say, so I don't see any contradiction regarding this one. And leaving together does not only refer to fleeing together at the same time. Anko could have followed him or Oro, for the sake of his jutsu, could have gone back to Konoha and took her with him.

Regarding CS, since we don't know the time frame, it is possible to think in both ways. You are free to not accept it, but currently there is nothing that contradicts with either opinion.

Regarding Oro's personality, as long as someone wants to flee with him or there is someone he can use easily, there is no reason to not take this person with you. We haven't shown anything that contradicts with that. He will rely on and use some other unknown and untrustable people for his sake, but he will avoid that with Anko! I don't think that is what Oro would have done. Also, if Oro left without preparing for his departure, then he wouldn't have time to say “Kukuku..ANKO, you are not of my need anymore, I’m not interested, bye”, and he wouldn't have gone back to Konoha just to say that, right?

Regarding Oro's words, if his words are based on only his impressions on some people he doesn't exactly know (like Naruto), then I don't find that trustworthy, considering his personality. But, if his opinions are based on some people whom he knows quite well, then I don't see a reason to immediately ignore that. Notice that, his words came as an answer to Anko's like related words. That words may not represent the current Anko, but considering their past together, that might be related to the past Anko. And I believe I used that for the past version of her.
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Old 2006-03-28, 14:13   Link #86
Rurik
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sazelyt
I guess Anko shown or not shown in the fight scene between Oro and Jiraiya does not invalidate what I say, so I don't see any contradiction regarding this one. And leaving together does not only refer to fleeing together at the same time. Anko could have followed him or Oro, for the sake of his jutsu, could have gone back to Konoha and took her with him.
It is a contradiction because there is no panel showing ANKO, there is no hint about it, just the placement you want, which in any case it does not fit with Orochimaru leaving Konoha abruptly. The biggest flaw in your theory is the panel With Jiraya and Orochimaru, this invalidate completely your Point.

Quote:
Regarding CS, since we don't know the time frame, it is possible to think in both ways. You are free to not accept it, but currently there is nothing that contradicts with either opinion.
AGAIN stop ignoring the simple fact (Current as of now) that Oro left Konoha alone this was portrayed that way, every time they mention it, never ANKO is inside the sentence, Your theory has a probability to be true, but right now, the facts on how Orochimaru left Konoha, contradicts this theory.

Quote:
Regarding Oro's personality, as long as someone wants to flee with him or there is someone he can use easily, there is no reason to not take this person with you. We haven't shown anything that contradicts with that. He will rely on and use some other unknown and untrustable people for his sake, but he will avoid that with Anko! I don't think that is what Oro would have done. Also, if Oro left without preparing for his departure, then he wouldn't have time to say “Kukuku..ANKO, you are not of my need anymore, I’m not interested, bye”, and he wouldn't have gone back to Konoha just to say that, right?
And not saying that Oro would had not taken ANKO with her, rather, that In the moment where he was frenetically looked for in Konoha, do you think he would stop by to look for ANKO?, Or are Konoha shinoby are that stupid and not too look for Orochimaru first at his Residence and ANKO’s residence? I think the last place Oro though on going was the places where everyone would be looking for him.

Understand that Oro disposed or to put it in better words, He used her, and then cut his ties with her before Being caught in his secret lab -ANBU member one As of late you have being acting strange”.

Quote:
Regarding Oro's words, if his words are based on only his impressions on some people he doesn't exactly know (like Naruto), then I don't find that trustworthy, considering his personality. But, if his opinions are based on some people whom he knows quite well, then I don't see a reason to immediately ignore that. Notice that, his words came as an answer to Anko's like related words. That words may not represent the current Anko, but considering their past together, that might be related to the past Anko. And I believe I used that for the past version of her.
What about what he said to Tsunade about reviving his love one? If what you say is true than there is no reason to believe that he was lying then, because Oro knows very well Tsunade.

The point remains, That Orochimaru made that comment as mocking ANKO rather than Reflecting her true feelings, As ANKO question was more in concerned of Orochimarus acts, rather than she still felt bad because Oro decided to Tag another person with the CS (if she ever did, there is no Indication she did felt bad after Oro threw her away).

Furthermore this will continue to go on, as every Debate that it is made with you (it is imposible to try and prove you wrong, even with facts ), so lets see our original point of discussion, lets Assume for a moment you scenario, ANKO did left with Oro, now Oro took ANKO as part of his luggage, this is still totally different from Sasuke acts.

Sasuke left Konoha, alone by his own will, And Almost killed a Konoha Shinoby, Konoha should be graceful enough that the one who faced him was Naruto, any other Genin would had end up dead, So far was his treason, that he in the moment of his escape was willing to kill any Konoha Shinoby, now I ask you, Could you apply this same situation and compared to ANKO? (Of course assuming your theory is correct)
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Old 2006-03-28, 14:29   Link #87
Sazelyt
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I will add more comments as time allows.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uchiha_Rurik
It is a contradiction because there is no panel showing ANKO, there is no hint about it, just the placement you want, which in any case it does not fit with Orochimaru leaving Konoha abruptly. The biggest flaw in your theory is the panel With Jiraya and Orochimaru, this invalidate completely your Point.

AGAIN stop ignoring the simple fact (Current as of now) that Oro left Konoha alone this was portrayed that way, every time they mention it, never ANKO is inside the sentence, Your theory has a probability to be true, but right now, the facts on how Orochimaru left Konoha, contradicts this theory.
If there is a possibility to become true, how can it contradict the story? Imo, to have contradiction here, you need to have a clear statement that says Anko was not with him or Anko didn't follow after him. But, I don't see that right now. Again, this is my perception, and it is just a theory.

Quote:
And not saying that Oro would had not taken ANKO with her, rather, that In the moment where he was frenetically looked for in Konoha, do you think he would stop by to look for ANKO?, Or are Konoha shinoby are that stupid and not too look for Orochimaru first at his Residence and ANKO’s residence? I think the last place Oro though on going was the places where everyone would be looking for him.

Understand that Oro disposed or to put it in better words, He used her, and then cut his ties with her before Being caught in his secret lab -ANBU member one As of late you have being acting strange”.
Ok, how do you know that Oro cut his ties with her before he left Konoha? That sentence alone does not refer to anything that is related to Anko. You want me to ignore the possibility that Anko did not follow or leave with Oro based on a scene that doesn't show Anko, but you use a similar way to prove your point - a sentence that says nothing about Anko.

We have only shown Sandaime and a few dead ANBU members when he was first fleeing. How did Jiraiya, who wasn't shown in that lab scene, find Oro? And if Jiraiya can do that, why not Anko do the same thing?


Edit:


Quote:
What about what he said to Tsunade about reviving his love one? If what you say is true than there is no reason to believe that he was lying then, because Oro knows very well Tsunade.

The point remains, That Orochimaru made that comment as mocking ANKO rather than Reflecting her true feelings, As ANKO question was more in concerned of Orochimarus acts, rather than she still felt bad because Oro decided to Tag another person with the CS (if she ever did, there is no Indication she did felt bad after Oro threw her away).

Furthermore this will continue to go on, as every Debate that it is made with you (it is imposible to try and prove you wrong, even with facts ), so lets see our original point of discussion, lets Assume for a moment you scenario, ANKO did left with Oro, now Oro took ANKO as part of his luggage, this is still totally different from Sasuke acts.

Sasuke left Konoha, alone by his own will, And Almost killed a Konoha Shinoby, Konoha should be graceful enough that the one who faced him was Naruto, any other Genin would had end up dead, So far was his treason, that he in the moment of his escape was willing to kill any Konoha Shinoby, now I ask you, Could you apply this same situation and compared to ANKO? (Of course assuming your theory is correct)
The original point was (I hope I haven't lost track of it), if knowing that Oro is evil, Anko left with Oro, then that would put her in a similar situation. Sasuke hasn't killed any Konoha member yet, as far as we know. We don't know anything about Anko, so let's assume the best case scenario and not killing any Konoha ninja. Even after that, as opposed to Sasuke whose main goal is to kill Itachi, in her case, it might be her emotional attachment to Oro, which would have worsened the situation.

Anyway, as you suspected, I will for the time stay faıthful to that perception. If anything comes up that directly contradicts with what I say, those will change.


I went through the previous chapters and saw an interesting comment that Tsunade made. When she was explaining the mission about Sasuke to Shikamaru, she said "this isn't the first time something like this has happened." Any comments?

Last edited by Sazelyt; 2006-03-28 at 18:12.
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Old 2006-03-28, 14:54   Link #88
Rurik
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sazelyt
If there is a possibility to become true, how can it contradict the story? Imo, to have contradiction here, you need to have a clear statement that says Anko was not with him or Anko didn't follow after him. But, I don't see that right now. Again, this is my perception, and it is just a theory.
Again it contradicts its because there is no fact to support it, If is like I say Itachi didn’t kill the Uchiha clan, right now, Is a contradiction, but this does not means that Ksihimot creates a future plot showing a scene with Itachi not destroying the Uchiha Clan, is that simple. There is no hint to support your theory, heck there are hints that contradicts your theory, but that does not means that Kioshimot will change it in the future (very unlikely, what was needed to be shown regarding Anko and Orochimaru was already done).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sazelyt
Ok, how do you know that Oro cut his ties with her before he left Konoha? That sentence alone does not refer to anything that is related to Anko.
Easy, Orochimaru cut the ties before leving Konoha because of these 2 facts:

A-Because Orochimaru was alone with Jiraya, did not have any companion. (meaning ANKO was not with him at that moment).

B-HE was escaping Konoha, not leaving as Sasuke did, or Itachi, He was caught, and was looked for by The entire ANBU team, hence he was in hurry, criminals like this don’t stop for things on the way. (meaning he left Konoha without her)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sazelyt
You want me to ignore the possibility that Anko did not follow or leave with Oro based on a scene that doesn't show Anko, but you use a similar way to prove your point - a sentence that says nothing about Anko.
I don’t want to you to ignore your theory, but using that assumption to try an use it as Fact to defend Konoha from reinserting back Sasuke is ridiculous, you are using a theory that is not even certain to defend Konoha posture with Sasuke, even when ANKO situation and Sasuke situation are Totally different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sazelyt
We have only shown Sandaime and a few dead ANBU members when he was first fleeing. How did Jiraiya, who wasn't shown in that lab scene, find Oro? And if Jiraiya can do that, why not Anko do the same thing?
Maybe because Jiraya was in ANBU, I this case the information network, he was doing his job, ANKO was not, and why would ANKO look for Oro if she was already disposed by Oro prior to Oro leaving Konoha?
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Last edited by Rurik; 2006-03-28 at 15:35.
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Old 2006-03-28, 14:57   Link #89
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I don't think Orochimaru would throw Anko away.
My theory is that Anko left, probably convinced by Yondaime,
so Oro is jealous now, trying to save his dignity by saying she was weak to begin with.
There is no reason to believe he would actually throw her away and let her live!
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Old 2006-03-28, 15:59   Link #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yellow Flash
I don't think Orochimaru would throw Anko away.
My theory is that Anko left, probably convinced by Yondaime,
so Oro is jealous now, trying to save his dignity by saying she was weak to begin with.
There is no reason to believe he would actually throw her away and let her live!
He didn't throw her away, he put the seal on her, and she was the only one out of 10 people he gave the seal that survived. He gave her the choice of going with him or being left behind. She didn't want to go with him after all the crap she saw, did, and the pain she was put into. Besides he didn't want her because she didn't have revenge in her system or wanted power like he does (or sasuke).
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Old 2006-03-28, 17:23   Link #91
astayanax
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mechwar666
He didn't throw her away, he put the seal on her, and she was the only one out of 10 people he gave the seal that survived. He gave her the choice of going with him or being left behind. She didn't want to go with him after all the crap she saw, did, and the pain she was put into. Besides he didn't want her because she didn't have revenge in her system or wanted power like he does (or sasuke).
Filler.

I don't think Orochimaru would throw her away either; at least not until he had something that was better which he didn't at that time. More than likely, he never got the chance to get close to Anko because of the 4th, the 3rd, Jiraiya and ANBU or because Anko simply decided she didn't want to leave Konoha behind.
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Old 2006-05-26, 12:30   Link #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by astayanax
Filler.

I don't think Orochimaru would throw her away either; at least not until he had something that was better which he didn't at that time. More than likely, he never got the chance to get close to Anko because of the 4th, the 3rd, Jiraiya and ANBU or because Anko simply decided she didn't want to leave Konoha behind.
Hello?!? He didn't want to keep her around because she's a CHICK! Michael Jackson quips aside, he was experimenting with those powerful seals not only for control of the subject but potential body take-over right? I mean, granted Oro likes little boys, but I doubt he'd go so far as to turn into a woman.
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Old 2007-04-27, 12:47   Link #93
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Can Sasuke become a Kanoha Ninja once more?

Okay, so we all know that Sasuke has been put off as a criminal (bingo book), and he has scratched off his forehead protector.
But lets just say after he has killed (or defeats) Itachi (that being his goal). Could the Kanoha community give him immunity for his actions? Keep in mind that Sasuke hasn't harm Kanoha (or the civilians, besides Naruto).
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Old 2007-04-27, 12:49   Link #94
ChojinLocke
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It would depend on Kishimoto...He might have redemptive qualities but it's up to what the author has in store for him.
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Old 2007-04-27, 13:16   Link #95
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no emos allowed back in konoha
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Old 2007-04-27, 14:05   Link #96
Mr. Johnny 5
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No. Because even if your an ex-agent and kill a person who killed the people in your street or crew and betraying them afterwards you wont get off.

They may thank you but at the same time you are put behind bars anyway. Obviously Naruto has some great connections and Sasuke wont die if the catch him....but if he is welcome....i doubt that actually.
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Old 2007-04-27, 14:07   Link #97
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He's a criminal and should be treated as one.
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Old 2007-04-27, 14:31   Link #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legace View Post
Okay, so we all know that Sasuke has been put off as a criminal (bingo book), and he has scratched off his forehead protector.
But lets just say after he has killed (or defeats) Itachi (that being his goal). Could the Kanoha community give him immunity for his actions? Keep in mind that Sasuke hasn't harm Kanoha (or the civilians, besides Naruto).
I think he can choose to comeback...I mean that's the whole point of what Naruto is trying to do...It wouldn't fit...sure they may punish him leaving, but it's not like he's done anything near what Itachi has done...

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Old 2007-04-27, 16:26   Link #99
Sabaku Kyu
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I agree that Sasuke could probably return to Konoha if he wanted to, though I was skeptical about this at first. Konoha doesn't even seem to consider him a criminal. I doubt he'd even be punished (he's too powerful for that anyway).

The question is would Sasuke even want to come back? I don't see it happening. Even if he does kill Itachi and survives the ordeal, he would probably want to rebuild his clan and start his own village. He has the power and influence to do that now. I don't see why he would want to go back to serving Konoha.
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Old 2007-04-27, 16:31   Link #100
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Redeem himself for what? Sasuke didn't do a goddam thing!
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