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Old 2008-06-04, 05:58   Link #161
Rachy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FateAnomaly
If he grieves for his brother, then shouldn't he respect his brother's wish to maintain peace in Konoha.
Itachi was sort of manipulated. At least used in Konoha's best interests.

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shouldn't he seek revenge on Madara since he helped to kill them.
They were going to die either way anyway.
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Old 2008-06-04, 06:17   Link #162
Vindi89
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Originally Posted by Lady Rave View Post
They were going to die either way anyway.
LOL. From old age maybe. If Itachi asked for Madara's help it means he couldn't accomplish it by himself. I don't see Itachi being the kind of person who would want to owe Madara a favor when he can do without it.
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Old 2008-06-04, 06:27   Link #163
Rachy
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Originally Posted by Vindi89
LOL. From old age maybe. If Itachi asked for Madara's help it means he couldn't accomplish it by himself. I don't see Itachi being the kind of person who would want to owe Madara a favor when he can do without it.
Madara was bitter towards the Uchiha/Senju and offered him a chance to get revenge without harming the rest of the village. Again putting Konoha first.. doesn't mean Itachi couldn't of done it alone. At first he accepted the mission and put it on himself.
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Old 2008-06-04, 06:28   Link #164
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The manga is named from the plot device which allows Sasuke to do whatever he wants and still be redeemed in the end, so there is no way Sasuke won't have a happy ending.
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Old 2008-06-04, 06:34   Link #165
Vindi89
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Originally Posted by Lady Rave View Post
Madara was bitter towards the Uchiha and offered him a chance to get revenge without harming the rest of the village. Again putting Konoha first.. doesn't mean Itachi couldn't of done it alone. At first he accepted the mission and put it on himself.

What? Itachi came to Madara asking for help..... I know you Uchiha fans ~love~ everything Uchiha and they can do no wrong, but seriously how are you only blaming Konoha for this. The Uchihas are just as guilty for presenting a situation and ignoring negotiations with the Hokage.

If I killed someone who was a few weeks away from dying (life-killing disease lets say), does that make me any less guilty for killing them?

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Originally Posted by Rahan
The manga is named from the plot device which allows Sasuke to do whatever he wants and still be redeemed in the end, so there is no way Sasuke won't have a happy ending.
That would be funny if it becomes reality. (I liked the way you worded it previously).
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Old 2008-06-04, 06:37   Link #166
Rachy
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Originally Posted by Vindi89
What? Itachi came to Madara asking for help..... I know you Uchiha fans ~love~ everything Uchiha and they can do no wrong, but seriously how are you only blaming Konoha for this. The Uchihas are just as guilty for presenting a situation and ignoring negotiations with the Hokage.
He never went there asking for help.. He went there to offer a chance for Madara to settle his grudge against the clan that turned their backs on him without harming the village. And Konoha made the situation happen, I don't remember it being said they were ignoring negotiations. Konoha's discrimination of an innocent clan lead to everything.
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Old 2008-06-04, 06:51   Link #167
Mr. DJ
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They can redeem him if they want to...

Though he still ultimately goes to Hell....Vegeta was "redeemed" (though destroying planets and killing countless people over the years doesn't exactly go over well >.>)

Those of you who read the manga...has Sasuke done anything that would be called villainous? to innocent people? since all that I've seen...he's just been training.

Last edited by Mr. DJ; 2008-06-04 at 07:01. Reason: lolz quoting stuff from 2 years ago
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Old 2008-06-04, 07:12   Link #168
Vindi89
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Originally Posted by Lady Rave View Post
He never went there asking for help.. He went there to offer a chance for Madara to settle his grudge against the clan that turned their backs on him without harming the village. And Konoha made the situation happen, I don't remember it being said they were ignoring negotiations. Konoha's discrimination of an innocent clan lead to everything.
Sasuke confirmed that Itachi wasn't good enough to kill off the entire Uchiha clan by himself. Madara at this time even said he was looking to rekindle the flames of war and had a grudge against konoha and Uchiha. Are you sanely willing to accept Madara as being free from any blame from this and that Sasuke should ignore his part played?

Allow me to clarify the bolded statement. It's not explicitly said in the manga that they were ignoring negotiations, however they had the sympathy of the Hokage and could have tried going that route before settling on a coup d'etat. Madara's word were "...time ran out." In this situation time can only run out if the coup d'etat was imminent.
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Old 2008-06-04, 07:18   Link #169
Rahan
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Those of you who read the manga...has Sasuke done anything that would be called villainous? to innocent people? since all that I've seen...he's just been training.
That's the most ridiculous in the story
I guess I should request a "How many Konoha ninjas will commit suicide and in front of Sasuke and how will they do it so that he can look villainous without killing anyone ?" thread.
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Old 2008-06-04, 07:23   Link #170
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Originally Posted by Rahan View Post
That's the most ridiculous in the story
uh...wut?

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Originally Posted by Rahan View Post
I guess I should request a "How many Konoha ninjas will commit suicide and in front of Sasuke and how will they do it so that he can look villainous without killing anyone ?" thread.
ty for answering the question w/out completely sounding like a dick.
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Old 2008-06-04, 07:25   Link #171
Rahan
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uh...wut?



ty for answering the question...
I thought my post was interpretable as Sasuke has done nothing villainous yet since he only did some fighting and isn't even allowed to kill anyone, yet he is going at war against the good guys.
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Old 2008-06-04, 07:41   Link #172
Rachy
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Originally Posted by Vindi89
Sasuke confirmed that Itachi wasn't good enough to kill off the entire Uchiha clan by himself.
Yes because Sasuke knew what Itachi was really capable of..

Quote:
Are you sanely willing to accept Madara as being free from any blame from this and that Sasuke should ignore his part played?
At the moment, yep.


Quote:
Allow me to clarify the bolded statement. It's not explicitly said in the manga that they were ignoring negotiations, however they had the sympathy of the Hokage and could have tried going that route before settling on a coup d'etat. Madara's word were "...time ran out." In this situation time can only run out if the coup d'etat was imminent
Negotiations is totally made up. Sandaime was being shown as the good guy that wanted no one to die. But it's still Konoha's fault. And rightly stated so..
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Old 2008-06-04, 08:00   Link #173
Vindi89
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Originally Posted by Lady Rave View Post
Yes because Sasuke knew what Itachi was really capable of..
Really... how about the fact that Itachi confirmed he did have help coupled with the fact that he SOUGHT Madara out for help.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Rave
At the moment, yep.
Based on your response here it's pointless to continue debating with you as your sense of right and wrong is totally skewed in respect to mines and the laws we use IRL.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Rave
Negotiations is totally made up. Sandaime was being shown as the good guy that wanted no one to die. But it's still Konoha's fault. And rightly stated so..
See my response above.

Last edited by Vindi89; 2008-06-04 at 08:14.
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Old 2008-06-04, 09:36   Link #174
Rachy
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Originally Posted by Vindi89
Really... how about the fact that Itachi confirmed he did have help coupled with the fact that he SOUGHT Madara out for help.
Yeah he said he had help which he did. He never sought Madara out because he needed help. He done it in an attempt to appease Madara's desire for revenge against Uchiha. In exchange he had to agree not to harm the rest of the village.

I don't really get the other part of the post but OK.
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Old 2008-06-04, 10:37   Link #175
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Are you sanely willing to accept Madara as being free from any blame from this and that Sasuke should ignore his part played?
Everything's on madara. If that guy hadn't been a shithead back in the days, there would have been no suspicion, no segregation, no need for a coup d'etat, and no need for killing the clan.

It's all on madara. If Sasuke doesn't realize, he's either dumb or willfully ignorant. Prolly both.
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Old 2008-06-04, 10:50   Link #176
HiroInazuma
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Originally Posted by Xrayz0r View Post
Everything's on madara. If that guy hadn't been a shithead back in the days, there would have been no suspicion, no segregation, no need for a coup d'etat, and no need for killing the clan.

It's all on madara. If Sasuke doesn't realize, he's either dumb or willfully ignorant. Prolly both.
Actually didn't you realize, Sasuke wasn't paying attention to anything Madara said about himself, which is why Sasuke kept quiet and had his mouth opened, he was actually thinking 'Wow he knows something about Itachi...better not pay attention to what he is saying right now cos it is just old man babble...when he says Itachi I'll come back to reality' then Madara said kyuubi attack and then Sasuke accidently came back into reality and responded. Then Sasuke paid attention
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Old 2008-06-04, 10:56   Link #177
Xrayz0r
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Originally Posted by HiroInazuma View Post
Actually didn't you realize, Sasuke wasn't paying attention to anything Madara said about himself, which is why Sasuke kept quiet and had his mouth opened, he was actually thinking 'Wow he knows something about Itachi...better not pay attention to what he is saying right now cos it is just old man babble...when he says Itachi I'll come back to reality' then Madara said kyuubi attack and then Sasuke accidently came back into reality and responded. Then Sasuke paid attention
Er.. that's one version of events.

Might be so, hadn't thought of that. In that case Sasuke might not be a retard, but it doesn't change the fact that Madara's to blame, and Sasuke's still a vengeful idiot with shitty morality.

Killing the village elders..... okay, but destroying Konoha altogether, that's plain stupid.

Last edited by Xrayz0r; 2008-06-04 at 12:57.
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Old 2008-06-05, 08:41   Link #178
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Originally Posted by HiroInazuma View Post
Unless Naruto has a kekkei genkei and a clan that got slaughtered he will never be important, Naruto's life is just a small part of Sasuke's story
But Naruto is the main character he is just as important as Sasuke and he has every right to be important in the manga and episodes,and it started with him from the beginning anyways.
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Old 2008-06-05, 13:31   Link #179
james0246
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Originally Posted by Lady Rave View Post
Negotiations is totally made up. Sandaime was being shown as the good guy that wanted no one to die. But it's still Konoha's fault. And rightly stated so..
Well, realistically, Sarutobi as Hokage is Konoha. He is the supreme leader with control over everything (Konoha is a military organization with Sarutobi as the Head). But, Danzou and his cohorts decided that the Uchiha clan was trouble, and enlisted Itachi's participation in their destruction (behind everyone's backs). So, it is not Konoha that is evil, rather their are members of the society that have ill intentions towards the Uchiha's, so no matter how you phrase it, it is not "Konoha's" fault, it is three doddering old foggies that had to much time on their hands so they resorted to genocide. This is also why myself and others find it so difficult to understand the chronological events that occur. Specifically, did Sarutobi or the Uchiha's break-off the negotiations? Did Itachi act prematurely (for a clan about to go to war, the Uchiha sure were not prepared for any type of attack (otherwise there would have been more signs of struggle)...I wonder why?)? So many questions need to be answered before Konoha can be labeled either "good" or "evil".

That being said, Madara is a vengenful baby who has seemingly whined and complanied about Konoha since its foundation. So, basing any "facts" strictly on what he says, seems a little silly.

As to the thread question...Well, you are always redeemable, but the moment that Sasuke indiscrimantely hurts or potentially kills a Konoha shinobi, even if by accident, within the confines of the manga he will be irredeemable, and his downfall is all that waits for him.
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