AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Kanon

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2006-10-23, 14:40   Link #1221
martino
makes no files now
 
 
Join Date: May 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkchibi07 View Post
Wow, I didn't expect this amount of hatred towards ANN before. It like you guys have personal vendettas against them.
Of course since they said such stuff about Kanon...I mean, what do you expect in a thread full of Kanon(and SHnY) fanatics
__________________
"Light and shadow don't battle each other, because they're two sides of the same coin"
martino is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-10-23, 15:00   Link #1222
Lost
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
One wonders if Kanon 2006 will ever get out of SHnY's shadow. I'm seeing as many 'SHnY's as 'Kanon's here... And its sad.
Lost is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-10-23, 15:05   Link #1223
Vexx
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lost View Post
One wonders if Kanon 2006 will ever get out of SHnY's shadow. I'm seeing as many 'SHnY's as 'Kanon's here... And its sad.
Sorry... its just that with KyoAni and Sugito involved ... its like the unwashed masses can't get the connection out of their heads.... and then of course to answer them you have to refer to both so it never stops

I'm not sure I'd call myself a fanatic of Kanon ... that implies a cessation of critical thinking. KyoAni could still blow the project out of their ear or it could commercially fail because the audience now lacks the attention span to pay attention to details (a problem with that other show as well though a lot of confused people watched it anyway because of the buzz). But I don't think its too hard to recognize poorly supported critique as well as drooling fanboi support. I couldn't give a flying hoot about Deathnote or Bartender and I can see those series were poorly reviewed as well.
I'm just as well off reading those hilariously awful series synopsis translations in the ANN database.

"And a new adventure world opens now!"
Vexx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-10-23, 16:47   Link #1224
bayoab
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
First of all, the review was by Carlo Santos, the RTO writer. He is known for hating EVERYTHING.

Quote:
Originally Posted by npal View Post
Following the above link, I just have to state this. If those "overviewers" or whatever they wants to be called have seen everything the world had to offer, why do they even bother scanning new shows? I mean, most of the comments are rather condescending (to outright degrading). I seriously doubt most of those shows are so crappy.
And what is the point if it was just fanboy fappage? That just makes everything stale if you aren't willing to cast negative light on it. Do you honestly always want to hear positive reviews even if the show down right sucked?

So what did you think of the original Kanon?
It's plot was okay.

Is that what you really want to hear? No mention of the shitty art? That toei can't animate for shit?
Also, 99% of everything is crap. Of the 52 or so new shows, only 2-3 are worth checking out.


Quote:
I mean, judging from the comments of Kanon 2006, they seriously needs to stop watching TV for years. If you don't like bishoujo anime in the first place, DON'T WATCH THEM.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
None of the reviewers remotely cared for the genre they were reviewing which means they approached it as a loss to begin with. The reviews seemed basically designed to stir up controversy to light up their comment forums and ad hits.
What is the point of having someone review someone if they do care for the genre? They are not reviewing it for fans of the genre, they are reviewing it for the casual viewer out there who knows nothing of the genre. The point of the reviews is to be objective and not based on any fanaticism. This isn't a review of Kanon as a bishoujo anime, its a review of Kanon as an anime in general. Like it or not, this is what the normal person will think of Kanon if they picked up the first dvd of it.

Edit: Look at some of the posts in the talkback too. Kanon is not for everything. If you don't realize that yet, welcome back to reality.
Edit 2: As Zac pointed out, read the DISCLAIMER on the top of the page. They aren't trying to review the series either. Just impressions from the first episode or so.

Last edited by bayoab; 2006-10-23 at 16:57.
bayoab is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-10-23, 17:02   Link #1225
DanielSong39
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by bayoab View Post
That toei can't animate for shit?
I agree that the original Kanon had some of the worst character designs of all time.

So I clicked on Toei's works at AnimeNfo, and after seeing a list filled with classic after classic... well, maybe they just had a bad day at the office? They'd have to be considered one of the all-time industry giants.
DanielSong39 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-10-23, 17:21   Link #1226
Vexx
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 57
The overviews, by being abjectedly negative, fails the objectivity test you are using yourself, bayoab. These were not objective reviews (if there is such a thing). Being interested in a genre doesn't make one automatically any more biased than hating a genre makes one objective. If I hate every science fiction film ever made and I can't keep it out of my assessment, it makes my review of one just as worthless as a drooling fanboi review.

That's how I call their reviews. I'd even say they went overly negative just to stir up controversy and hits. In defending them, you're just using hyperbole to overstate your contention that they're somehow objective; in doing so, you hardly even answered npal's fairly reasonable query.

I don't want to hear that Kanon is better than sliced bread either when there are problems. But I'm less likely to find someone credible if they start off with "I hate this stuff, I've seen it all <further jaded negativity follows>". That simply isn't helpful to the "casual viewer" you're defining here and, frankly, I've not seen where "Like it or not, this is what the normal person will think of Kanon" is documented. If anything, I'm closer to the "casual viewer" because I don't tend to play any of the games these shows are based on (I own precisely 3 out of curiousity and don't plan to buy any more). In many cases, I've not even seen the manga before seeing the anime.

Besides, only 90% of everything is crap, including reviews. I don't want to keep banging on them - thats derailing this thread. I just don't use them as credible sources for anime pre-checks (and haven't for many many months).

Last edited by Vexx; 2006-10-23 at 18:00.
Vexx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-10-23, 18:01   Link #1227
relentlessflame
 
*Administrator
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Age: 32
I have to (mostly) agree with Vexx on this one. While I certainly concede that the review is more likely to represent "popular opinion" among casual anime viewers (that's what I said earlier today, even), that doesn't make it "objective". Neither is the assertion that "99% of everything is crap" objective, even if it also is a commonly-held belief.

If one wants their opinion to be taken seriously, they must first pass the obvious test: "why should I care about what you have to say?" Even on this forum, that test applies. An easy way to gain that "respect" from your audience is to use bitterness and cynicism to fuel hatred based on stereotypes, and pass it off as "objectivity" just because a lot of people might agree. The much harder way is to be honest, admit your biases, not over-state your importance, and to remain consistent in your behaviour and stated beliefs. The latter's not a good way to be popular among many, but it is a good way to be highly-trusted by a few.

So Reviewer X didn't like a show -- why should I care? The "problem" here (and it's really an annoyance, not a problem) is that ANN claims to be "The Internet's most trusted anime news source". Despite the clear disclaimers in the article, their word carries weight. Their inciteful remarks fuel others in their militant dismissals of the shows (and not just Kanon), and contribute to the "99% of everything is crap" cynicism that plagues the Internet and (in my opinion) stifles intelligent discussion and learning/growth. They had the potential to raise the bar of intelligent and insightful criticism, but they didn't seize the opportunity. The readers, and "the Internet" they claim to be trusted by, are no better off for it.

Last edited by relentlessflame; 2006-10-23 at 20:11. Reason: fix typo in "seize"
relentlessflame is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-10-23, 18:26   Link #1228
New/Old
Old to the New
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Correct again Vexx and relentlessflame. ^^ Objectivity is the most important thing to have as a reviewer. If you have it, you've got me onboard for the reading and considering and thinking on the review. ANN lacks it from what I have heard...
__________________
Come what may.....
New/Old is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-10-23, 19:19   Link #1229
N-Bomb
King of Braves
*Fansubber
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Toronto, ON
Age: 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by bayoab View Post
Is that what you really want to hear? No mention of the shitty art? That toei can't animate for shit?
Also, 99% of everything is crap. Of the 52 or so new shows, only 2-3 are worth checking out.

Bay, the fanboys are just upset that a reviewer didn't like their favourite tripe and write a glowing review of it, regardless of the truth. No genre has more appologists than moe... >.>
__________________
[Chronotrigger] "...we're good. We are really good." "Just look at the Karaoke ... and say it doesn't rule."

#MAHQ @ irc.rizon.net
N-Bomb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-10-23, 19:40   Link #1230
DanielSong39
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
In any case I think we should watch the series to the end before passing judgement on the show.

After 2 episodes, I was ready to throw D.C. Da Capo into the waste bin (Note: Kotori appears in episode 4). I was very impressed with Canvas 2 and thought it was going to be a gripping drama throughout. I thought KGNE was going to be one of those shoujo soap operas.

As it turned out, I was wrong on each count. So who knows where this show will go? If it delivers a haunting story and comes through with the AIR ending, it will likely make the list of my favorites. But if it degenerates into impossibly bad soap and follows the miracle-an-episode formula at the end, I am less likely to be impressed. I just hope the girls play a more active role in the story instead of crying "Uguu", "Nyuu", "Auu", or "Gao" (couldn't resist) and relying on Yuuchi to save the day.
DanielSong39 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-10-23, 20:14   Link #1231
New/Old
Old to the New
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by N-Bomb View Post
Bay, the fanboys are just upset that a reviewer didn't like their favourite tripe and write a glowing review of it, regardless of the truth. No genre has more appologists than moe... >.>
Ah. An insult that ignores most of the previous posts. Bravo. You've put me in my place. I must simply yield to your all-knowing ignorance.

Just kidding. Forgive me for getting carried away. Please do read some of the previous posts to exactly see why ANN is contested.
__________________
Come what may.....

Last edited by New/Old; 2006-10-23 at 20:34.
New/Old is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-10-23, 20:53   Link #1232
justinstrife
Queen Sheryl's Protector
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: John Galt Railroad
Age: 34
Send a message via AIM to justinstrife Send a message via Skype™ to justinstrife
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Sorry... its just that with KyoAni and Sugito involved ... its like the unwashed masses can't get the connection out of their heads.... and then of course to answer them you have to refer to both so it never stops

I'm not sure I'd call myself a fanatic of Kanon ... that implies a cessation of critical thinking. KyoAni could still blow the project out of their ear or it could commercially fail because the audience now lacks the attention span to pay attention to details (a problem with that other show as well though a lot of confused people watched it anyway because of the buzz). But I don't think its too hard to recognize poorly supported critique as well as drooling fanboi support. I couldn't give a flying hoot about Deathnote or Bartender and I can see those series were poorly reviewed as well.
I'm just as well off reading those hilariously awful series synopsis translations in the ANN database.

"And a new adventure world opens now!"

Having been a fan of the original Kanon, it's sad to me that so many people cannot let the new Kanon get out of the shadows of Haruhi. I feel like I'm one of the only ones that LIKES the new Yuuichi better than the older version. He feels more human to me, and his voice just feels more natural.

I admit I see some similiarities to Kyon and Yuuichi in their sarcasms, I find Kyon much more negative though, and Yuuichi much more positive a character.

And I'm gonna chalk myself up there with Vexx and the rest on ANN's reviews. I read them, and can tell the writers have no idea what the heck they're talking about(and haven't been watching enough different kind of animes obviously).
__________________
justinstrife is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-10-23, 21:05   Link #1233
Shiroth
Beautiful fighter.
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: England, UK
Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by justinstrife View Post
I feel like I'm one of the only ones that LIKES the new Yuuichi better than the older version.
No offence or anything, but almost everyone around hear believe's that to be true - you're not alone.
__________________
Shiroth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-10-23, 21:16   Link #1234
houkoholic
seiyuu maniac
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Whoever picked up that the reviewer actually don't know the original material and calling the source "so-so" had a good eye, and just that really puts the review in its place - it's an uninform piece that's looking to sound smart and different by going against the hype, but alas he shot himself in the foot.

Personally, I do not like bishoujo and harem shows which is based on eroge, because more often than not they are just poorly produce low budget shows looking for a quick way to cash in on the fanbase. But Kyoani isn't doing this, which is evident in how much pain-staking detail they have managed to cram into the show. While Kyoani may still drop the ball, but it certainly doesn't look like they will with the amount of effort they have injected into the show already. I would also urge new viewers of the show to rewatch Kanon once they know the full scope of the story so they can realise how much foreshadowing Kyoani had put inside the show and why fans of the game are going so crazy over it this time around.

EDIT: justinstrife, you are not the only one who appreciates Sugita's performance as Yuuichi. I think pretty much any player of the game can appreciate why they made this change, and it's because Sugita does make a better Yuuichi, and not because he is Kyon.
houkoholic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-10-23, 21:34   Link #1235
New/Old
Old to the New
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Certainly not alone, justinstrife. I'm with you on this. As houkoholic said, players of the game will appreciate Sugita's work as Yuuichi. I have to say I agree wholeheartedly as a player of the game. Of course, that's only me.
__________________
Come what may.....
New/Old is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-10-23, 22:51   Link #1236
bayoab
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
The overviews, by being abjectedly negative, fails the objectivity test you are using yourself, bayoab.
Yes, by hating everything, he carries a bias. However, but by not being a fan of the show, not seeing the original, and not playing the game, he is completely objective in that respect and closer to the generic fan out there. The best person to look at a show is someone who has heard nothing about it. (Also, for anyone who watched Haruhi, Yuuichi is Neo-Kyon and there are many ways to compare the girls as Neo-Mikuru and Kaori is Neo-haruhi.)

Quote:
These were not objective reviews (if there is such a thing). Being interested in a genre doesn't make one automatically any more biased than hating a genre makes one objective. If I hate every science fiction film ever made and I can't keep it out of my assessment, it makes my review of one just as worthless as a drooling fanboi review.
Agreed that there is no such thing as a truely objective review as far as story goes. As far as art quality, music, and a few other aspects, there is. Being interested in a genre tends to produce more favorable reviews of a series because of predisposition.
This however does not carry genre hate. I've seen him give series glowing reviews and then trash them entirely and give them a B-. This is the way his reviews go.

Quote:
That's how I call their reviews. I'd even say they went overly negative just to stir up controversy and hits. In defending them, you're just using hyperbole to overstate your contention that they're somehow objective; in doing so, you hardly even answered npal's fairly reasonable query.
Part of that is probably true that it is hype-backlash, and part of it isn't. There is a large segment of people who hate Kanon. (I am one, I am only watching it for Neo-Kyon and watching this thread for other random things.) I suspect a lot of people here are also playing the "my favorite show got trashed, the reviewer sucks" card. Only a couple people here have successfully counter-pointed him. (And most of them require knowledge that someone would not have watching the first episode.)

Oh, and their impressions are always like this. Highly negative toward the shows that would (and usually do) recieve a poor reception in the general public. Read the thread, most people agree with their opinions. People who post decenting opinions that are well explained are not bashed. It's an opinion.

Quote:
But I'm less likely to find someone credible if they start off with "I hate this stuff, I've seen it all <further jaded negativity follows>". That simply isn't helpful to the "casual viewer" you're defining here and, frankly, I've not seen where "Like it or not, this is what the normal person will think of Kanon" is documented. If anything, I'm closer to the "casual viewer" because I don't tend to play any of the games these shows are based on (I own precisely 3 out of curiousity and don't plan to buy any more). In many cases, I've not even seen the manga before seeing the anime.
He doesn't even start off that way though. He doesn't mention anything about hating the genre. He even mentions it screaming "will get better later, how long are you willing to wait?"

Quote:
Besides, only 90% of everything is crap, including reviews. I don't want to keep banging on them - thats derailing this thread. I just don't use them as credible sources for anime pre-checks (and haven't for many many months).
90% of everything is crap and 90% of the 10% that remains is crap to someone else so 99% of everything is crap.


Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
I have to (mostly) agree with Vexx on this one. While I certainly concede that the review is more likely to represent "popular opinion" among casual anime viewers (that's what I said earlier today, even), that doesn't make it "objective". Neither is the assertion that "99% of everything is crap" objective, even if it also is a commonly-held belief.
The corollary to Sturgeon's law says that 90% of everything is crap (and is defined completely objectively). For 99%, see above.

Quote:
<snip> The much harder way is to be honest, admit your biases, not over-state your importance, <snip>
You can't start every review going "I hate the following. I don't know the following". You have to learn about your reviewers.

Quote:
So Reviewer X didn't like a show -- why should I care? The "problem" here (and it's really an annoyance, not a problem) is that ANN claims to be "The Internet's most trusted anime news source".
Stating the obvious here: Reviews are not news. They are opinion.

Quote:
Despite the clear disclaimers in the article, their word carries weight. Their inciteful remarks fuel others in their militant dismissals of the shows (and not just Kanon), and contribute to the "99% of everything is crap" cynicism that plagues the Internet and (in my opinion) stifles intelligent discussion and learning/growth. They had the potential to raise the bar of intelligent and insightful criticism, but they didn't seize the opportunity. The readers, and "the Internet" they claim to be trusted by, are no better off for it.
Saying 90% of everything is crap does not stifle discussion. It makes it clear that not everything has the potential to be good.

Spoiler for Statistical rant:


Quote:
Originally Posted by New/Old View Post
Correct again Vexx and relentlessflame. ^^ Objectivity is the most important thing to have as a reviewer. If you have it, you've got me onboard for the reading and considering and thinking on the review. ANN lacks it from what I have heard...
ANN has a strong negative bias as does anyone who has been watching anime for a long time. It is hard to be objective when you have seen lots of other anime already.

Quote:
Originally Posted by houkoholic View Post
Whoever picked up that the reviewer actually don't know the original material and calling the source "so-so" had a good eye, and just that really puts the review in its place - it's an uninform piece that's looking to sound smart and different by going against the hype, but alas he shot himself in the foot.
Again, read the disclaimer, it is an impression, not a full series review. Also, by not seeing the original, that makes his review more objective.
bayoab is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-10-23, 23:00   Link #1237
IRJustman
Founder, Sprocket Hole
*Fansubber
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Fresno or Sacramento, CA
Age: 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiroth (Regarding Sugita Tomokazu being "better" v. Kisaichi Atsushi as Yuuichi) View Post
No offence or anything, but almost everyone around hear believe's that to be true - you're not alone.
Actually, each has their moments. I will say this though: Sugita Tomokazu's voice is a better fit for the KyoAni character design better than would Kisaichi Atsushi's, so I definitely agree with that assessment. Kisaichi's voice fits the ToeiAni issue better.

And I personally like both of them in their respective series (which probably puts me in a minority, but eh).

--Ian.

Last edited by IRJustman; 2006-10-23 at 23:01. Reason: Slight correction in the "quote" header
IRJustman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-10-23, 23:03   Link #1238
houkoholic
seiyuu maniac
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Quote:
Originally Posted by bayoab View Post
Again, read the disclaimer, it is an impression, not a full series review. Also, by not seeing the original, that makes his review more objective.
Not when he specifically claims that the material which the show it was based up on was "so-so" quoting him directly. All his objectivity goes out the window when he hasn't seen the original material then goes around saying that the material is "so-so". Just that sentence his intention is clear from that very point - he's creating anti-hype. It's not a good review nor impression either way when it's so very clear what his intention was coming into the show only looking to write anti-hype for it.

And please stop with the Neo-Kyon thing, as stressed many times over and over, Yuuichi's character predates Kyon by many years and it was Key which made these types of smartass characters popular in the genre, you're only demonstrating the very same naivity as the other people using this. It's like the people claiming all mecha shows are rip-offs of EVA, it doesn't make you look smart nor witty but rather it only makes you look uninformed.
houkoholic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-10-23, 23:18   Link #1239
Skane
Anime Snark
 
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 31
Arrow

I don't really see how not seeing the show beforehand can be seen as being more objective. Does this mean that one cannot be objective if one already knows the storyline beforehand? Does this mean that one cannot be less bias if one already knows the storyline beforehand? I don't believe in that.

So far what I have mostly done is to point out some of the more extreme points of view in that review.

I for one, have never stated that Ep01 of Kanon is perfect. It is not. There were some problems with the early scene transitions. Some of the lines were stilted. If I wrote a review about Ep01, I will point out these things, amongst others.

The thing is. I will point out these flaws without going overboard and throwing the show to the sharks. The point of a review is to INFORM, not to LAMBAST( "It teh suck!") or to PREACH( "It rulez, Brothers!").

Do I adore Kanon? Of course I do. Does that mean I am incapable of mentioning its' flaws? Heck no.

I can accept criticism of any show if the reviewer maintains proper objectivity and provides valid basis for his point of view. That was why I mentioned "hand-waving in the air" earlier on. With no backing up of your statements, your review is already fundamentally flawed.

Hyperbole, a review does not make.

Cheers.
__________________
Skane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-10-24, 00:23   Link #1240
relentlessflame
 
*Administrator
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Age: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by bayoab View Post
The corollary to Sturgeon's law says that 90% of everything is crap (and is defined completely objectively). For 99%, see above.
Come now... to be called "objective", something must be based only on facts. If Sturgeon's Revelation were "objective", everyone, if exposed to the same evidence, would agree on what exactly is in the "90%". That is, after all, what is meant by a "fact" - it's based on observable truth. But the old adage "one's trash is another's treasure" comes to mind. Since it's practically impossible to pick one's favourite anime in a way that is "not influenced by personal feelings, interpretations, or prejudice", applying Sturgeon's Revelation, at least in this context, is not and cannot be objective. Popular opinion need not apply. And to be clear: I obviously don't expect a review/opinion/impression to be purely objective (I could just read a fact sheet for that), but I do expect them to not confuse what is objective from what is subjective. Tell me the facts, tell me your opinion, and then I'll form an opinion of my own - I'll decide if it's in my personal "90%" or not.

Anyway, this is off-topic and has nothing much to do with Kanon.
relentlessflame is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
bishoujo, drama, key, kyoto animation, magic, romance, school life, seinen

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:19.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.