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Old 2006-07-12, 03:38   Link #81
Maids! Maids! Maids!
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And here's an image.
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Old 2006-07-12, 08:54   Link #82
physics223
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In opposition to a some posters, I loved the OP while I disliked the ED. While the ED felt more befitting to the mood of the series, the OP was a great start, just because it seemingly preluded something sane and normal - while all the time seemingly precluding something abnormal.

The first episode was so-so. I don't mind if I drop the show, but I think I'm going to keep on watching it. Though I do have some of Satou's qualities, I definitely don't have his dementia (yet), and I'm not anti-social at all. Sadly, I didn't find much enjoyment in seeing a grown man who could act but is unwilling to. I'm a weakling; I often fail what people expect of me, but I think that just by having a paradigm shift you'd avoid falling apart in the first place. For me, I totally think it's the hikkikomori's fault. Who else can you blame? Society? Society is a vague, inchoate idea ... it can be good or bad, depending on the person dealing with it. In the end, it's up to the person, and Satou's simply an idiot for not dealing with it correctly. To be totally honest, I've been bullied and I'm somewhat of a geek (though unconscious, that is, I don't really study a whole lot, I just read a whole lot and the knowledge that I glean from what I read converge and aid me later on in serious study [school]) but I didn't turn into something fearing society to the extent of Satou. In the end, he's just borderline between a sane idiot and an insane shithead.
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Old 2006-07-12, 09:17   Link #83
lavielove
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Quote:
Originally Posted by physics223
Society? Society is a vague, inchoate idea ... it can be good or bad, depending on the person dealing with it. In the end, it's up to the person, and Satou's simply an idiot for not dealing with it correctly. .....In the end, he's just borderline between a sane idiot and an insane shithead.
Partially agree with you on that physics.But the people who want to supress their feeling and not good in socializing with the others have a full potential of being hikkikomori.I even had a chance to met some hikkikomori cut thier own skin to supress their loneliness.Even one become hikkikomori,addicting to manga and anime is still far more better than those acts and wrong doing. Satou's life is pitiful.
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Old 2006-07-12, 09:53   Link #84
physics223
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This may be a misconstrued concept, but for me, I consider addiction to be better than the cure. If the cure is a life of discontentment and suffering, of always wanting to grasp that goal of higher grades (which I give a damn about just as your average student, but not as much), I'd rather fall back on my addiction, underachieve, but live contentedly. If I can be happy being an addict of something inexpensive and non-destructive, I'd rather be happy than sad. Being a hikkikomori is sheer idiocy. What's different from me or you (a self-proclaimed addict, lavielove) to them is the will to NOT being one. It's so enticing to live lazily, but that's not our style. In the end, it's still up to the person himself, so it's really hard to sympathize with Satou's plight, because he was the one who brought it all to himself.
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Old 2006-07-12, 13:14   Link #85
Itlandm
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I liked the first episode somewhat. It is not a favorite of mine, but I would like to give it a chance. The sympathetic girl is a large part of that. If she turns out to be as crazy as he is, I'll probably drop it. Watching psychiatric cases gradually grow worse is not something I enjoy, and if the semi-spoilers from the manga people here bears out, I will probably stop watching at some future time.

But for now, it was kinda interesting and thought-provoking. I like that.

I hate the ending song. But then again my mind is a harmonious and tranquil place generally.
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Old 2006-07-12, 17:50   Link #86
physics223
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Similarly, the only redemptive factor of the show was an altruistic human willing to reach out to a son-of-a-bitch. Were it not for Misaki's existence, the show would have been too whiny and too heavy to bear. I certainly don't want to watch the life of a jerk; I have a lot of problems on my own, thank you very much. This is like watching Big Brother: you can observe lives as it revolves inside the house, but I didn't see the merit in that, and I can't see the merit here. The only good things about the show are its wonderful OP and Misaki.
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Old 2006-07-12, 18:47   Link #87
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So, is the girl supposed to be a Jehovah's Witness or something?
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Old 2006-07-12, 18:55   Link #88
physics223
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Welcome to the NHK - 01 Insights

Spoiler:


No, the girl isn't. She's supposed to be someone torturing Satou, I think.
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Old 2006-07-12, 19:00   Link #89
Itlandm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Technical
So, is the girl supposed to be a Jehovah's Witness or something?
That was my first thought too. The magazine grandma was pushing would be the Japanese version of "Awake", which tends to cover various social trends without being too heavyhanded on the theology.
Satou seems to mentally place her in a classic Christian church or even dressed as a nun (when dressed at all), but this could be his ignorance rather than that of the director or the mangaka. In any case, Christianity is very much a minority religion, so keeping track of the different versions would be hard for most Japanese.
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Old 2006-07-12, 19:02   Link #90
shadowplay
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Don't put too much hope in Misaki, you'll regret it later.
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Old 2006-07-12, 19:04   Link #91
Clarste
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Nevermind.

Hmm... I'm think about all this Satou hate, and really, it's justified. He's a failure of a person, sort of by definition. I guess this makes people wonder how they're supposed to sympathize with him.

Well, if you're not anti-social, obviously you can't identify with him. That's his entire problem. You have to realize, he's not actually an otaku or any other sort of escapist, he just doesn't know how to communicate with people. He hasn't been bullied, except insofar as he's not strong enough to stop bullying from happening to other people, and he's not a geek. We have no idea what kind of grades he was getting; the given reason for him dropping out of school was him not being able to handle being around other people. Basically, he's nothing at all like most of us here. The very fact that we post on a forum puts us lightyears ahead of him in sociability, and people who keep blogs are practically the opposite of him.

I actually kind of identify with him. Being close to one or two good friends in high school, but then going to college and realizing that your friends have gone to other places and you don't have the social skills to make new ones. Thereby leading a life of complete solitude. Plus, since you can't really talk to people, you can't get a job, even though you know it'd make your life infinitely better in several ways. Okay, I'm extremely unlikely at this point to quit school, or lock myself in my room, but that's not really the root of his problem. Personally, I fail to see how graduating from college will make me any better at applying for a job, and that scares me a lot.

And remember, this is fundamentally a story about "curing" him, whether or not that actually succeeds. Honestly, he's a pretty good case. When he's not hallucinating, he knows he has a problem, and knows what he should do to solve it. He clearly wants to escape what he's become, as is evident by him attempting to apply for a job and accepting Misaki's invitation for her "project." He's kind of an inspirational figure, in that sense.

Last edited by Clarste; 2006-07-12 at 19:59.
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Old 2006-07-12, 20:02   Link #92
Muir Woods
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Whoa there physics223, I sense great animosity towards Satou with your denigrating words there. While I understand the origin of your disapproval, let me play the devil's adovate a bit. From what I read of your posts, you're implying that Satou has the choice, the freedom to make a paradigm shift. What if he doesn't? What if his hallucinations and delusions are against his will? Not everyone has a crystal clear, or "healthy", mind. If his brain is intrinsically faulty, where his every thought process is, in a sense, unavoidably affected/restricted by such limitation, like a mental "handicap" (I detest that word, as it possesses such a strong negative connotation. I prefer the more neutral word "different". But I'm only using "handicap" for clarity.), can you still blame him with such zeal? This question is hitting very close to home for yours truly. And the line "Perhaps this is only my perspective..." is redundant. There is no perhaps, it is.

As for me, watching this show isn't about sympathy, its about curious observation. As such, I'm reserving judgment, even if I've become more learned about these kind of psychological quirks. The reason why I want to take that psychology course is because I've always been fascinated by people, real or fictional, with more unusual minds (eg. Humbert Humbert, Louis Wain...etc, and to a lesser extent, Satou here), and taking that course may enable me to understand these characters better in some way.
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Last edited by Muir Woods; 2006-07-12 at 20:50.
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Old 2006-07-12, 22:08   Link #93
physics223
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I'm glad that my insights have at the least generated (incited?) some discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bahamut89
Personally, I fail to see how graduating from college will make me any better at applying for a job, and that scares me a lot.
You'll have a degree. That enhances your chances of getting a job at least 50%.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bahamut89
And remember, this is fundamentally a story about "curing" him, whether or not that actually succeeds. Honestly, he's a pretty good case. When he's not hallucinating, he knows he has a problem, and knows what he should do to solve it. He clearly wants to escape what he's become, as is evident by him attempting to apply for a job and accepting Misaki's invitation for her "project." He's kind of an inspirational figure, in that sense.
I've seen more sociable nutcases in the real world. I don't want to see more in anime - there are some much more drastic 180s in real life than Satou, and I think I've seen some of them, in the news or whatnot. What I mean is, if you want inspiration, take some from the people around you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muir Woods
Whoa there physics223, I sense great animosity towards Satou with your denigrating words there. While I understand the origin of your disapproval, let me play the devil's adovate a bit. From what I read of your posts, you're implying that Satou has the choice, the freedom to make a paradigm shift. What if he doesn't? What if his hallucinations and delusions are against his will? Not everyone has a crystal clear, or "healthy", mind. If his brain is intrinsically faulty, where his every thought process is, in a sense, unavoidably affected/restricted by such limitation, like a mental "handicap" (I detest that word, as it possesses such a strong negative connotation. I prefer the more neutral word "different". But I'm only using "handicap" for clarity.), can you still blame him with such zeal? This question is hitting very close to home for yours truly. And the line "Perhaps this is only my perspective..." is redundant. There is no perhaps, it is.

As for me, watching this show isn't about sympathy, its about curious observation. As such, I'm reserving judgment, even if I've become more learned about these kind of psychological quirks. The reason why I want to take that psychology course is because I've always been fascinated by people, real or fictional, with more unusual minds (eg. Humbert Humbert, Louis Wain...etc, and to a lesser extent, Satou here), and taking that course may enable me to understand these characters better in some way.
There always is a choice, Muir. Life is one big choice. For Satou, he can choose to get well, or he could choose to stay stuck in the mire of his unwillingness to move on. Everyone, not only Satou, encounters illusions in his or her life. I don't have a healthy mind, but I can still choose. (I consider healthy those who have balanced lives in such manner that's worthy of accolade [Jesus Christ, Buddha, Mohammed] I'm fucking far and away from these guys. My mind is as defiled, as full of inquination as a puddle of piss, snot, and puke.)

I used perhaps, because I myself haven't congealed my perspective yet. It hasn't been set in stone, in other words. I don't think it's redundant in any way.

I'm going to take a course in literature. It's entertainment, psychology, exegesis - all in one. You should enjoy Mr. Quentin Compson.
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Old 2006-07-12, 22:17   Link #94
Clarste
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Quote:
Originally Posted by physics223
You'll have a degree. That enhances your chances of getting a job at least 50%.
It'll increase my chances of being accepted, not my chances of applying successfully. If I walk into a company and start, say, rambling about bikes, no one will care if I have a degree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by physics223
I've seen more sociable nutcases in the real world. I don't want to see more in anime - there are some much more drastic 180s in real life than Satou, and I think I've seen some of them, in the news or whatnot. What I mean is, if you want inspiration, take some from the people around you.
Not inspirational to me in particular (except maybe as a motivation to avoid certain behaviors), but... I don't know. Well, he's not as bad as he could be anyway.
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Old 2006-07-12, 22:46   Link #95
Mr. Guy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by physics223
There always is a choice, Muir. Life is one big choice. For Satou, he can choose to get well, or he could choose to stay stuck in the mire of his unwillingness to move on.
Life is most certainly not that simple. There may always be a choice but that doesn't mean that choosing the correct choice is easy. You've seen one episode, I'd hardly say that you have an in depth view of his mind already. Maybe he really did have an extremely painful past that justifies the way he is. Satou has a weakness and faulting him on that is frankly, cruel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by physics223's blog post
Just because these guys don’t have it great in life doesn’t mean they can’t view the world positively.
Viewing the world positively...? Hikkikomori's usually have good reasons for isolating themselves from society. Chief among these reasons is the lack of ANYTHING good coming from their life. Chances are that whatever exprience they had with society was not a good one. It's extremely difficult to view the world positively when you've known nothing but sorrow from it. And because they've known nothing but sorrow it's a rather difficult choice to return to a world that doesn't really care about them in the least.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blog post
They can do like I do and underachieve
Just quoting this because this is brought up and examined, just need to wait a bit

Simply, what I believe is that you're taking this issue personally and it's clouding your judgement. You're throwing out sage statements that hold a lot meaning but are simply not pratical for most people. All a matter of perspective? I may think the world's a nice place but I'm still going to be bummed out when I fail at something and people laugh at me because of it. Reality is so very much more complex then a few statements can explain.

People like Satou may be cowardly, they may be loathsome (and Satou recognizes this; but you need to wait a few more episodes), but hating them because of it solves nothing. So all in all, take a step back from it all and just laugh like you're suppose to do. Wait and see what happens! Don't like Satou? Well, there's still Misaki and a plethora of other characters (one in particular that shares your views!). Besides, Satou is not such a horrible person. Seriously, if you really can't wait, read the manga and you'll see that Satou is not nearly as bad as you think
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Last edited by Mr. Guy; 2006-07-12 at 23:27.
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Old 2006-07-13, 00:29   Link #96
Itlandm
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I don't pass a crash site an extra time to look at the body parts. I don't laugh when people slip on a banana peel or get a pie in the face. So maybe this show just isn't for me, once we come to the point where it turns out the good characters are bad. Until then I'll probably watch it.

People have actually very limited free will, as observation and introspection will reveal over time. And some have even less than others. The key is to use what little one has, exercize it regularly, and use it ahead of time to leverage it. Plan for one's own weakness and arrange ahead of time to minimize the self-created problems. But there is no point in me telling a cartoon character that.
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Old 2006-07-13, 00:49   Link #97
physics223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Guy
Life is most certainly not that simple. There may always be a choice but that doesn't mean that choosing the correct choice is easy. You've seen one episode, I'd hardly say that you have an in depth view of his mind already. Maybe he really did have an extremely painful past that justifies the way he is. Satou has a weakness and faulting him on that is frankly, cruel.
I didn't say anything about having an in-depth view of his mind. Serial killers have a weakness (they can't cherish life). Does faulting them on their misdeeds seem cruel? I don't think so, and that's what I'm doing with Satou.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Guy
Viewing the world positively...? Hikkikomori's usually have good reasons for isolating themselves from society. Chief among these reasons is the lack of ANYTHING good coming from their life. Chances are that whatever exprience they had with society was not a good one. It's extremely difficult to view the world positively when you've known nothing but sorrow from it. And because they've known nothing but sorrow it's a rather difficult choice to return to a world that doesn't really care about them in the least.
There are people, like Maximilian Kolbe for example, who were worse off than Satou in ways more than one. Yes, it's extremely difficult to see society in a good light whenever it doesn't do you good, but it's possible. If Kolbe did it in a state even worse off than Satou was, why couldn't he? It's not only Satou who got it bad in life, it's just that he can't look above and forward. I've had my share of shit, and almost flirted with being Satou-ish, but believe me, I thought it through, and it didn't take me four years to figure the right way out. Society doesn't like unconformity; but I've had managed through the years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Guy
Simply, what I believe is that you're taking this issue personally and it's clouding your judgement. You're throwing out sage statements that hold a lot meaning but are simply not pratical for most people. All a matter of perspective? I may think the world's a nice place but I'm still going to be bummed out when I fail at something and people laugh at me because of it. Reality is so very much more complex then a few statements can explain.

People like Satou may be cowardly, they may be loathsome (and Satou recognizes this; but you need to wait a few more episodes), but hating them because of it solves nothing. So all in all, take a step back from it all and just laugh like you're suppose to do. Wait and see what happens! Don't like Satou? Well, there's still Misaki and a plethora of other characters (one in particular that shares your views!). Besides, Satou is not such a horrible person. Seriously, if you really can't wait, read the manga and you'll see that Satou is not nearly as bad as you think
It's hard to laugh through it at all. I wouldn't laugh at people being impaled, or people being slashed to death. I see the same with Satou's soul, and I CAN'T laugh. I don't enjoy laughing at people for the most part; I enjoy laughing with them. Laughing at somebody's who's worse off than you is evil, honestly.
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Old 2006-07-13, 04:30   Link #98
Idle Eve
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And so I can now firmly say with confidence, "This is why I come to animesuki."
You guys advocate what I enjoy so much, intelligent conversations. There's talent here and your strong opinion, your firm backing and the precision of your words and beliefs are but a few defining characteristics of the individuals here. Please bare with me, but I've always taken an interest into understanding people and in the process, understanding my own faults. One such fault of mine is the inability (for the moment I believe) to express a strong opinion. For an aspiring writer, this could be deadly, but up until now, I've done well on my essays. However, onto my point...

Thank you to:
Muir Woods
Psychics223
Mr.Guy
Bahamut89
(and anyother I may have missed)

for bringing to my attention a thoughtful topic. Humans, conformity, society, and acceptance.

--- I'll also place my insights into the anime, but I'll wait until the 3rd episode to do that. I'll be back of course to say a view words here and there, but, however, here's a little on what I think. Thus far, I enjoy the show for its artistic opening and intepretation of an... anti-social... for a lack of a better word. I guess I have to admit, I'm rather ignorant of the college life and struggling that Satou has to go through. Perhaps I should slap myself for that, but in all honesty, I think that's what attracts me to Satou. He's something I don't know much about. Sadly though, I should know more about Satou. It's not like I don't know someone who isn't in his position... Geesh. I actually feel guilty, but that topic aside, I'm going to watch this series until the end.
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Old 2006-07-13, 05:40   Link #99
Itlandm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by physics223
It's hard to laugh through it at all. I wouldn't laugh at people being impaled, or people being slashed to death. I see the same with Satou's soul, and I CAN'T laugh. I don't enjoy laughing at people for the most part; I enjoy laughing with them. Laughing at somebody's who's worse off than you is evil, honestly.
I agree to this. However, there is an ancient dispute about the effects of letting loose evil feeligns against imaginary characters. Already the ancient Greeks considered this when they set up their tragedies. One theory (prevalent among those Greeks) is that letting your feelings out will cleanse you ("Katharsis"). The other theory says that getting used to negative emotions and actions will make it easier to live them out in real life.

It is hard to find this out simply from statistics. A murderer who has watched violent movies, for instance, may have watched them precisely because he already liked violence. Perhaps a non-violent person watching the same movies would have become even more disgusted by the violence and so even more peaceful. It is hard to find out unless you perform experiments on random people, and this is not allowed in any civilized nation.

Actually some point to Japan as such a social experiment. Japanese manga and anime contain more hentai - sexual perversity - than their American counterparts, but in real life Japanese sexual morality is far above the west. This does not necessarily say that hentai manga prevents rape, for instance, but it seems unlikely to be a direct connection at least. I would assume the same to hold true for other strong emotions, like anger or contempt.

But as for me, I am probably in the same situation as you here: I am physically unable to laugh at shows like this. That's not why I watch it.
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Old 2006-07-13, 07:07   Link #100
lavielove
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It's about 1 year ago,I changed my job and unfortunately I was unenployed.The bills were kept coming in even though I was broke like hell.In that time I was the greatest consumer for all kinds of entertainment.Slept the whole day, woke up at night and watching anime all night.Since I was living alone, my room was like a junk just like Satou lived.But lucky enough, the electricity was not cut off.

That's the reason why I sympathize Satou.When someone is depressed, it's natural to find a way to cure himself whatever way possible.Satou made a choice once and Misaki is now giving him an another option.Actually not even an option since I can guess his choice in the next episode.
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