AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2006-07-13, 08:04   Link #101
Anime Online
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Satou scares me. Not so much as being a hikikomori that hasn't socialised with the outside world for 3-4 years, but he actually seems mentally unsound. Harboring a paranoia of people talking about you or conspiring against you, receiving messages from television, halluciations, social isolation. These are all telltale symptons of schizophrenia.

Or maybe he smoked alot of really bad weed.
Anime Online is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-07-13, 09:00   Link #102
physics223
In the Tatami Galaxy ↓
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Itlandm
I agree to this. However, there is an ancient dispute about the effects of letting loose evil feeligns against imaginary characters. Already the ancient Greeks considered this when they set up their tragedies. One theory (prevalent among those Greeks) is that letting your feelings out will cleanse you ("Katharsis"). The other theory says that getting used to negative emotions and actions will make it easier to live them out in real life.

It is hard to find this out simply from statistics. A murderer who has watched violent movies, for instance, may have watched them precisely because he already liked violence. Perhaps a non-violent person watching the same movies would have become even more disgusted by the violence and so even more peaceful. It is hard to find out unless you perform experiments on random people, and this is not allowed in any civilized nation.

Actually some point to Japan as such a social experiment. Japanese manga and anime contain more hentai - sexual perversity - than their American counterparts, but in real life Japanese sexual morality is far above the west. This does not necessarily say that hentai manga prevents rape, for instance, but it seems unlikely to be a direct connection at least. I would assume the same to hold true for other strong emotions, like anger or contempt.

But as for me, I am probably in the same situation as you here: I am physically unable to laugh at shows like this. That's not why I watch it.
I definitely agree to your statements, and those in bold are given emphasis. We actually talked about it (some of my friends and I) in real life, and they agreed with me when I said that the reason that crime rates aren't really high in Japan is that they could vent out their emotions into a lot of harmless things (watching pr0n, masturbating [we're not going to be picky here], or some other forms of channeling emotion safely that the Westerners more often than not do not possess). The Greeks weren't exactly the smartest people back then, but this was offset by the presence of undeniably perceptive and insightful people (Aristotle, Socrates, Plato, Anaximander ... ) who weren't perfect but for the most part spoke correctly about life in general. Anime may be one of those channels, though I still can't get myself to laugh at people worse off than me (unless they made it in a blatantly funny way, which I didn't perceive when I watched the episode).

Quote:
Originally Posted by lavielove
It's about 1 year ago,I changed my job and unfortunately I was unenployed.The bills were kept coming in even though I was broke like hell.In that time I was the greatest consumer for all kinds of entertainment.Slept the whole day, woke up at night and watching anime all night.Since I was living alone, my room was like a junk just like Satou lived.But lucky enough, the electricity was not cut off.

That's the reason why I sympathize Satou.When someone is depressed, it's natural to find a way to cure himself whatever way possible.Satou made a choice once and Misaki is now giving him an another option.Actually not even an option since I can guess his choice in the next episode.
Granted, it's hard to find an instant solution to depression. I totally accept that and know that it takes time. However, although it may take time, it certainly doesn't take four years does it, for even an (ab)normal guy like me or you to get over his hump? You must have made a choice sooner and stuck with it to have your life the way it is now - and it must have taken you a choice where you stuck to your guns to get over that hump. It's that lack that I'm castigating Satou for, because I believe four years is enough time for anyone to reflect and gather balls to break free.
physics223 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-07-13, 09:16   Link #103
lavielove
...
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
@physics Yes, four years is too much.

Anime Online I think that's because of the figurine he collects.That figurine is the worst figurine I've seen ever ^^;;
lavielove is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-07-14, 06:29   Link #104
Yotsuba
芸術は爆発だ!
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Age: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anime Online
Satou scares me. Not so much as being a hikikomori that hasn't socialised with the outside world for 3-4 years, but he actually seems mentally unsound. Harboring a paranoia of people talking about you or conspiring against you, receiving messages from television, halluciations, social isolation. These are all telltale symptons of schizophrenia.

Or maybe he smoked alot of really bad weed.

In the manga he's a drug-addict, too.

As a hikikomori myself, I can say that years of isolation does crazy things to your mind.
__________________
Yotsuba is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-07-14, 12:22   Link #105
Muir Woods
Disheartened and Retired
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: 加拿大
Age: 28
Arg, the Animesuki forums were iffy yesterday. I couldn't access the forums as I kept getting this gateway connection (504) error. I wasn't the only one right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by physics223
I used perhaps, because I myself haven't congealed my perspective yet. It hasn't been set in stone, in other words. I don't think it's redundant in any way.

I'm going to take a course in literature. It's entertainment, psychology, exegesis - all in one. You should enjoy Mr. Quentin Compson.
When one makes a judgment, one's biases comes into play while making that assessment. It is unavoidable (re: TOK). So it's always your perspective, regardless if that particular piece of judgment has cemented or not. Here I'm seperating perspective from an assessment. An opinion will always be contained within a point of view. And we'll see, on page 672 of Ulysses (it has been a strenuous read), I only have about a quarter of the book left. Then I'll move on to The Sound and The Fury.


Quote:
There always is a choice, Muir. Life is one big choice. For Satou, he can choose to get well, or he could choose to stay stuck in the mire of his unwillingness to move on. Everyone, not only Satou, encounters illusions in his or her life. I don't have a healthy mind, but I can still choose. (I consider healthy those who have balanced lives in such manner that's worthy of accolade [Jesus Christ, Buddha, Mohammed] I'm fucking far and away from these guys. My mind is as defiled, as full of inquination as a puddle of piss, snot, and puke.)
I am wondering if we are using the same definition for a(n) (un)healthy mind. I am defining an unhealthy mind as a mind that is truly mentally ill or faulty (eg. Patient HM, who's implicit memory is normal, but his explicit memory only last two minutes. He constantly relives his life over and over in two minute intervals.), not merely an extreme of usual traits like nastiness or malevolence. If Louis Wain had severe depression, do you think he could easily make a choice to look on the bright side? No, he will probably be too busy worrying about how lightbulbs are stealing his soul to power it. So I have to disagree, as choices is still an act of the mind, and when one's thought process does not listen to common reason or wisdom anymore, when one's mind belongs at a different dimension, those "choices" you speak of becomes meaningless. And I notice you keep drawing comparison to yourself, as if suggesting that Satou should've done what you've done. Be careful, when using yourself as an example, realize that you and your surroundings are but one case, one instance. It is not a standard. Do not expect any amount of people, large or small, to do the same.

After reading jiv's post, I am content in knowing that there are others who share a similar point of view as I do.
Muir Woods is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-07-14, 18:45   Link #106
physics223
In the Tatami Galaxy ↓
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muir Woods
When one makes a judgment, one's biases comes into play while making that assessment. It is unavoidable (re: TOK). So it's always your perspective, regardless if that particular piece of judgment has cemented or not. Here I'm seperating perspective from an assessment. An opinion will always be contained within a point of view. And we'll see, on page 672 of Ulysses (it has been a strenuous read), I only have about a quarter of the book left. Then I'll move on to The Sound and The Fury.
Meh. I haven't even read Ulysses yet - I honestly got out more, got addicted to DotA, kicked caring for school out of my head ... and read nothing for the past few months. I'll give you that. Okay. Reading my post once more, I think that I meant that although it was only my perspective, I didn't want to observe the lives of depraved men. But take it as you want ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muir Woods
I am wondering if we are using the same definition for a(n) (un)healthy mind. I am defining an unhealthy mind as a mind that is truly mentally ill or faulty (eg. Patient HM, who's implicit memory is normal, but his explicit memory only last two minutes. He constantly relives his life over and over in two minute intervals.), not merely an extreme of usual traits like nastiness or malevolence. If Louis Wain had severe depression, do you think he could easily make a choice to look on the bright side? No, he will probably be too busy worrying about how lightbulbs are stealing his soul to power it. So I have to disagree, as choices is still an act of the mind, and when one's thought process does not listen to common reason or wisdom anymore, when one's mind belongs at a different dimension, those "choices" you speak of becomes meaningless. And I notice you keep drawing comparison to yourself, as if suggesting that Satou should've done what you've done. Be careful, when using yourself as an example, realize that you and your surroundings are but one case, one instance. It is not a standard. Do not expect any amount of people, large or small, to do the same.
In relation to NHK, however, Satou's mind is NOT inherently faulty, as we can see from the hints peppered throughout the episode. I was talking about that in the discussion of my blog post as well. His mind was made, by him, to be faulty. So it's his fault. If he didn't take drugs or smoke in the first place, he wouldn't have been like that. Unless proven otherwise, I think the proof of going to school would have at the least given him borderline sanity (not really faulty).

In my book-reading binge once, Crime and Punishment was among the first ones I've read. It took me three stutters before I managed to read the book, but it wasn't as difficult as The Sound and the Fury: it only was quite heavy, and I didn't have the mental fortitude in those tries before to persevere throughout the book. It's a very potent psychological analysis by one of the greatest masters of literature. However, Raskolnikov was plagued by hunger and poverty that strengthened his isolation from society. It wasn't that he was anti-social; we often see him fall asleep anywhere, and that's because he was poor - the poverty was a factor that led him slowly (as I saw it) to what he did (murder a miserable old lady). He acted for what he believed was right. I'm not condoning his actions, but he made a lot of choices, and it wasn't simply a non-motile one. The bottom line is, I'm much more sympathetic to a person who did what he believed was right - and reformed because it was wrong to many (to society and to God). I'm also much more sympathetic because of the background that he has. He swam in the mire of poverty, not unlike Satou who enjoyed living a comfortable life.

Bah. It's hard to explain a tome with such pastiches of meaning in it; I've only gone understood the psychology partly, but there is also religious suggestion and nationalism (if I remember correctly, a raskolnik is a religious schistic). I'll stop there.
physics223 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-07-14, 22:48   Link #107
Mr. Guy
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muir Woods
Arg, the Animesuki forums were iffy yesterday. I couldn't access the forums as I kept getting this gateway connection (504) error. I wasn't the only one right?
Was happening to me too. Took forever to load (and only in Opera) and then 504'd every time I tried to login.

Quote:
Originally Posted by physics233
I didn't say anything about having an in-depth view of his mind. Serial killers have a weakness (they can't cherish life). Does faulting them on their misdeeds seem cruel? I don't think so, and that's what I'm doing with Satou.
I think you missed what I was saying. I'm not excuses Satou for his 'misdeeds' but for his weakness. And yes, I think it is cruel to fault serial killers for not being able to cherish life. Circumstances surrounding most serial killer's background generally show things like physical and emotional abuse. They were made to be what they are. Pity is something that should be given in those circumstances because it really wasn't their fault to begin with. Also, my comment about not having an indepth view of his mind was a way of saying, "you can't judge a person from watching 20 minutes of their behavior."

Quote:
Originally Posted by physics223
There are people, like Maximilian Kolbe for example, who were worse off than Satou in ways more than one. Yes, it's extremely difficult to see society in a good light whenever it doesn't do you good, but it's possible. If Kolbe did it in a state even worse off than Satou was, why couldn't he? It's not only Satou who got it bad in life, it's just that he can't look above and forward. I've had my share of shit, and almost flirted with being Satou-ish, but believe me, I thought it through, and it didn't take me four years to figure the right way out. Society doesn't like unconformity; but I've had managed through the years.
That's not really that good of an example. Kolbe had religion throughout his struggles, and thus, he had something to turn to in his times of need. Religion is something many people turn in times of need. As you've seen, the woman that Misaki was with also was tooting religion as a form of treatment. Satou, for what we've seen in the first episode, doesn't have anyone like that in his life. So enters Misaki-chan...

That's also a rather unfair example. Kolbe a real person and is about as selfless as they get. Can't get any higher moral ground then that! Satou's a character from a light novel that has delusions of talking furniture

Quote:
Originally Posted by physics223
It's hard to laugh through it at all. I wouldn't laugh at people being impaled, or people being slashed to death. I see the same with Satou's soul, and I CAN'T laugh. I don't enjoy laughing at people for the most part; I enjoy laughing with them. Laughing at somebody's who's worse off than you is evil, honestly.
You wouldn't laugh at them but you'd condemn them as 'jerks' and 'trash'? I don't know, but I'd rather laugh at them then do that. But in all seriousness, Satou's actions are obviously exaggerations. They're taken to an extreme in order to make it something to laugh at. The facial expressions match this obvious exaggeration (see chopping the beer bottle).

Quote:
Originally Posted by jiv
I would compare Satou to an alcoholic and say that it's not esencial the help of other to cure, but it's relatively easier to see an alcoholic person moving on on his/her own, while a hikikomori is a much weaker person.
Exactly. I very much doubt that hikikomori's have sane thought processes. Expecting them to make such difficult choices on their own without any stimulas is something that shouldn't be done. And honestly, who could really blame them? They're life styles must seem fine to them. Staying at home, watching TV, surfing the web, no fear of the outside world, no pressures at all, etc. It's a tempting lifestyle. What they really need is someone to show them that living like that isn't okay.

In case my point in everything hasn't been clear enough, I'm trying to say is wait a few episodes in. Honestly, formulating intense hatred or intense love is not something that can really be done with only seeing the character for less then a half an hour. What about that girl he had a crush on? What happened with that? What's up with that class rep? They all had connections to Satou. Wouldn't it make more sense to see what happened with them when condemning/exalting Satou?
Mr. Guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-07-15, 01:59   Link #108
Muir Woods
Disheartened and Retired
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: 加拿大
Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by physics223
In relation to NHK, however, Satou's mind is NOT inherently faulty, as we can see from the hints peppered throughout the episode. I was talking about that in the discussion of my blog post as well. His mind was made, by him, to be faulty. So it's his fault. If he didn't take drugs or smoke in the first place, he wouldn't have been like that. Unless proven otherwise, I think the proof of going to school would have at the least given him borderline sanity (not really faulty).
Then we have come full circle. My initial post posed a plausible what if situation, what if Satou was fundamentally mentally ill, partially or fully. And I went about proving my point within that context. While you have a judgment outside that context, I don't. And it is only the first episode (manga notwithstanding); it is still hard to discern accurately of Satou's mind. If his mind is partially instrinsically awry, however light or severe, it would at least alleviate some of his blame. Ah well, let's us await episode 02.
Muir Woods is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-07-15, 09:50   Link #109
npal
I desire Tomorrow!
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: As far from reality as possible
Age: 32
Well, I just watched ep 1. I can understand how can someone get to Satou's condition, and I concur with what some previous posters said that once a mind starts functioning in a certain counter-productive way, it can't change on its own, it needs help and stimulation. Plus, we should refrain from passing judgment to mental patients as being "trash", "at fault", etc. And just for the record, no, preferring staying home to whatever other means of entertainment is ok as long as you can still function effectively in society (be efficient at work, be able to socialize successfully, be able to attend to your own needs -food, sleep, whatever, etc).

I haven't read the manga, but I'll be watching this.
__________________
npal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-07-15, 10:15   Link #110
physics223
In the Tatami Galaxy ↓
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Guy
I think you missed what I was saying. I'm not excuses Satou for his 'misdeeds' but for his weakness. And yes, I think it is cruel to fault serial killers for not being able to cherish life. Circumstances surrounding most serial killer's background generally show things like physical and emotional abuse. They were made to be what they are. Pity is something that should be given in those circumstances because it really wasn't their fault to begin with. Also, my comment about not having an indepth view of his mind was a way of saying, "you can't judge a person from watching 20 minutes of their behavior."
If laws followed your statement of not faulting serial killers, the world would be a darker place to live in. Yes, I'll watch more - note that I didn't say I'd stopped watching, rather, I said that I was very negative about the first episode.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Guy
That's not really that good of an example. Kolbe had religion throughout his struggles, and thus, he had something to turn to in his times of need. Religion is something many people turn in times of need. As you've seen, the woman that Misaki was with also was tooting religion as a form of treatment. Satou, for what we've seen in the first episode, doesn't have anyone like that in his life. So enters Misaki-chan...

That's also a rather unfair example. Kolbe a real person and is about as selfless as they get. Can't get any higher moral ground then that! Satou's a character from a light novel that has delusions of talking furniture
It's an example, nevertheless. I'd say that Kolbe's as human as you or I, so if he could do it, why can't they?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Guy
You wouldn't laugh at them but you'd condemn them as 'jerks' and 'trash'? I don't know, but I'd rather laugh at them then do that. But in all seriousness, Satou's actions are obviously exaggerations. They're taken to an extreme in order to make it something to laugh at. The facial expressions match this obvious exaggeration (see chopping the beer bottle).
I'd rather let them face with the problem at hand rather than circumambulate around them by laughing at them. It's better to be frank. They are jerks. Rather than laugh at them, at least letting them know that they are can probably make them change rather than passively just making fun at them.
Does laughing behind other people's back aid solve their problems?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Guy
In case my point in everything hasn't been clear enough, I'm trying to say is wait a few episodes in. Honestly, formulating intense hatred or intense love is not something that can really be done with only seeing the character for less then a half an hour. What about that girl he had a crush on? What happened with that? What's up with that class rep? They all had connections to Satou. Wouldn't it make more sense to see what happened with them when condemning/exalting Satou?
I never said I'd stop watching.
physics223 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-07-16, 17:26   Link #111
hi no ken Jebus
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Spoiler for ep 2:
__________________
hi no ken Jebus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-07-20, 01:55   Link #112
AnimeFangirl
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: The dog gossips too much.
Hoo, a remix of Odoru Dame Ningen? I love that song.
*listens to it*
Boo, they changed the part I like most. Fail.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Emil Scherbe
This program attracts my attention because of musicans of ED.
Kenji Ohtsuki(vo) and Fumihiko Kitsutaka(gr) are reunion
after practically breaking up Kinniku Shoujotai in 1998(or so).

Sound sample for their pieces can be heard at
http://www.jvcmusic.co.jp/-/Discogra...ICL-36098.html

track 1 is Odoru Akachan Ningen (Dancing Babyish Humans)
track 2 is Nippon Hikikomori Kyokai no Theme (Nippon Hikikomori Kyokai's Theme)
track 3 is Odoru Dame Ningen 2006 (Dancing Useless Humans 2006)

Odoru Dame Ningen is Kinniku Shoujotai's piece back in 1991, IIRC.

Kinniku Shoujotai's vidoes at youtube.
http://youtube.com/results?search=%E...deo_view_count

ETA:
筋肉少女帯 (Kinniku Shoujotai) is abbreviated to Kin Sho and they write themself in alphabet as King-Show.
They might be known as Eat-Man's OP Chiisana Koi no Melody (Melody of Little Love) for oversea anime fans.
And/Or
CM piece for the SFC version of Street Fighter II Batoru Yarou -
Hyakuman Nin no Aniki (Battle Rogue - Elder Brother Of A Million Men).
__________________

Last edited by AnimeFangirl; 2006-07-20 at 02:35.
AnimeFangirl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-07-20, 08:57   Link #113
Aidan
Am I bad? Yes... Very X(
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Age: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by physics223
I'd rather let them face with the problem at hand rather than circumambulate around them by laughing at them. It's better to be frank. They are jerks. Rather than laugh at them, at least letting them know that they are can probably make them change rather than passively just making fun at them.
Does laughing behind other people's back aid solve their problems?
The only way to help such people is to extend a hand and actually help them, laughing behind their back won't help them or hurt them. It will only make the person laughing feel better about themselves at the expense of someone else. But telling them that they are jerks? How will that help someone who is trapped in a negative spiral of thought? Such frank comments to their face will only reinforce their behavior, the same as laughing right in front of them. They will end up worse then they were before.

I personally pity Satou and people like him, they are so disconnected from those around them that they miss out on being the social being that is man. Don't think too much and do more. Mind you that solitude is not a bad thing, but I'd have to go into spiritualism, things like self-reflection, inner growth, humbleness as a human and stuff like that (read: not necessarily religion)
Aidan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-07-20, 09:06   Link #114
physics223
In the Tatami Galaxy ↓
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Some guys don't even know they're like that ... so telling it to them can work.
physics223 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-07-20, 09:08   Link #115
npal
I desire Tomorrow!
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: As far from reality as possible
Age: 32
^ Depends on the person but we can all feel free to assume that most will just either dismiss you or get hostile.
__________________
npal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-07-20, 09:15   Link #116
physics223
In the Tatami Galaxy ↓
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
At least most dismissing you is better than all being pissed off. From my experience (yours will definitely differ), people prefer others saying stuff direct to their face than being laughed at behind their backs.
physics223 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-07-20, 10:41   Link #117
Aidan
Am I bad? Yes... Very X(
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Age: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by physics223
Some guys don't even know they're like that ... so telling it to them can work.
Your statement is true for people that haven't realizes that they have a problem. The thing is, Satou already realizes that what he's doing isn't good for him and he knows he has a problem. But even though he realizes this, he's incapable of changing by himself. Which is just how he thinks about things, he sees himself too much as a victim. So Just telling him isn't good enough, because he won't be able to change on his own, he needs to be helped through the process.
Aidan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-07-20, 10:44   Link #118
npal
I desire Tomorrow!
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: As far from reality as possible
Age: 32
Eh, that's an unfair comparison. I prefer this one : People prefer others being empathic than saying stuff directly to their face. It's not what you say really, it's the way you say it and ultimately how the person perceives you. The best of intentions won't reach someone in depression with just this : "you're depressed, life is tough, get over it on your own." Even if you sincerelly care, you won't accomplish anything if you can't reach the other person, and direct confrontation can work on some occassions but it's best to try more indirect approaches. Direct confrontations more than usually invoke defensive mechanisms and it's the last thing you want.
__________________
npal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-07-20, 11:15   Link #119
DarknessTear
Anime-Future/Static-Subs
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
I like this show because I can relate to Satou a lot. Of course I don't do drugs though. And I also know what I'm doing isn't good for me.
DarknessTear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2006-07-20, 23:01   Link #120
Clarste
Human
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Age: 28
Nevermind.
Clarste is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
gonzo, psychological

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 21:00.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.