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Old 2006-11-03, 21:50   Link #41
0TaKu0
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
I agree. Itachi might have trouble with Gai's level of taijutsu, but I think he could easily keep up with Lee, at least until he opened the 4th gate.
No way Itachi could keep up with Lee, the Renge and Ura Renge is the result of extreme Taijutsu skill's heh, if Itachi could keep up with Lee that means Itachi could do these movies, oh but wait, Itachi cant even open any gates which is a requirement just for renge alone, which means he cant. Being able to open gates means your degree of taijutsu is seriously high, lee can open 5 which means beyond that, Itachi could keep up with Lee until he takes off the weights, then its over. Just like you said "Being able to see the attack means nothing if you don't have the reflexes to back it up". Itachi cant keep up with Lee, NO way in hell after the 3 year time skip, who knows how Lee is now he might be at Gai's level, you know how hard working Lee is, stop underestimating him. Itachi's Taijutsu is nice, but just like he "fears" Gai, he will fear Lee.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
Being able to see the attack means nothing if you don't have the reflexes to back it up. Not all Uchihas have it. That's why Sasuke got his ass whipped by Lee the first time they met even though he could see every one of Lee's attacks coming with the Sharingan. Itachi only had a narrow window to perform a counter move like that. First, Sasuke had to be so close that his own Sharingan couldn't react in time to Itachi's movement. Then, Itachi had to be fast enough to reach up and grasp the wrist, we're probably talking about tenths of a second to react to a jutsu which if it had made contact, would've killed him.
Come on Sasuke's Sharingan was not even fully developed at that time, It's like I said when it comes down to it, all that meant was Itachi's Sharingan was at a higher level then Sasuke's because if Sasuke could counter Itachi that would mean Sasuke's Sharingan was at a higher level. Obviously Itachi had the speed to back it up and caught Sasuke's hand. But dude, I did say sasuke was slow as hell I mean who are you comparing here? The old BEFORE time skip Sasuke to the genius Itachi who killed his own clan? Seriously, you don’t even have to say it, you just know he's faster, stronger, smarter, then Sasuke during that time. Like I said, I would like to see Itachi try that shit on Kakashi or Gai at that time. Then I'll accept that it was a Skilled Counter.

By the way, remember how kakashi stoped the Chidori and Rasengan? grabbed both hands.... LMAO like it was a cake walk, wtf was that? I mean even though it was not aimed at him, he basically grabbed a throwing knife, Itachi did the same shit. That proves how weak ass Sasuke was back then, so being able to stop his chidori by grabbing his hand doesn’t mean it was an amazing counter.

Quote:
Kakashi used those dogs to hold down Zabuza so he wouldn't try to dodge or counterattack. But I'll tell you, if Zabuza would've tried to counter the same way Itachi did, he'd have died on the spot. Furthermore, knowing Itachi's ability, it's unlikely that Kakashi would even bother trying to use a direct chidori on him. Keep in mind that I'm not saying that chidori isn't easy to evade, I'm saying that the way Itachi avoided it is not an easy manuevuer.
Speculations, "But I'll tell you" you don’t know that, your speculating but we do know this, Kakashi used the dogs to hold zabuza down, if the case was that he could have "1 shotted" zabuza then why even bother to hold him down.

Quote:
Sasuke stated that Itachi was better at shruiken throwing then their father, who was head of Konoha's police force. I'm not sure how strong and skilled the Uchiha clan member's were but I'm confident Itachi's and Sasuke's father was near the top. Possibly only Itachi and Shusui surpassed him.
I think your forgetting Uchiha Madra, if people like Uchiha Madra, Itachi, His Father, Sasuke could exist in the Uchiha clan. I highly doubt there weren’t any others, when it ONLY comes to Kunai and Shuriken throwing skill's. Remember this is only about throwing skills which is a basic for every ninja. It's hard for me to believe that the people in the Uchiha clan who had the Sharingan couldn’t combine it with something as simple as throwing Kunai.

By the way Suna No Tate Err, The whole bunshin thing and hand seals speed I was basing it on the Manga, actually I based everything on the Manga I try not to do anything from the anime because they add shit that's not there and change stuff. You said you watched the episode, I cant be bothered to watch the episode right now but yea, I’m pretty sure they changed stuff and added shit that wasn’t there. In the manga it didn’t look like he was doing the hand seals in his robe…
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Old 2006-11-03, 22:46   Link #42
Suna no tate
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I have yet to look at the manga so I cannot give an interpretation on it since I don't remember it well enough. Still, the anime does give the impression that the Ataksuki robe is good for hiding things like handseals and shurikens. If the robe can hide seals, jutsus will just appear faster. Thats my whole point. I will check the manga later as I want to play a video game right now. Haha

(I typically look at the anime first because I have them all on dvd and searching is a breeze. With the manga, I have to individually redownload the chapter. It doesn't take very long: about 10 to 20 seconds, but repeat it ten times and you can see it becomes a hassle. And I'm not one of those who suscribes to the whole manga is canon. I see where people go with that, but to me if the anime creators think its safe enough to add it to the anime, its probably kosher. Or in other words, if they add it, it at least adds to the strength of the argument. Simply saying, its not in the manga is not good enough since even the anime creators agree with you. )

Still no one's answered how itachi can afford to blow up shadow clones...somethings not right. Either it wasn't a shadow clone, but really a water clone, or our definition of shadow clone jutsu is off, or itachi has found some loophole to the rule.
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Old 2006-11-04, 02:11   Link #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suna no tate View Post
And I'm not one of those who suscribes to the whole manga is canon. I see where people go with that, but to me if the anime creators think its safe enough to add it to the anime, its probably kosher. Or in other words, if they add it, it at least adds to the strength of the argument. Simply saying, its not in the manga is not good enough since even the anime creators agree with you. )
Actually, we are constantly going based on info from the Manga creator, and its been noted by manga creators often at their distain for portrayals of their work. And also introducing information that directly conflicts with what the anime may show (more common in ongoing series, like the reacent revelation in One Piece that the marines cross the calm belt to enter the GL, and specifically one ship did enter in that fashion, but 100 episodes ago, the anime shows the ship entering in a different way).

So , yes if its not in the manga, then its not cannon and can be picked apart for that reason.
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Old 2006-11-04, 02:16   Link #44
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yea hes awsome he joined anbu at age 12 and graduated at age 8
he pwns so much pwn cant evan dify him,
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Old 2006-11-04, 02:34   Link #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suna no Tate
Still no one's answered how itachi can afford to blow up shadow clones...somethings not right. Either it wasn't a shadow clone, but really a water clone, or our definition of shadow clone jutsu is off, or itachi has found some loophole to the rule.
No one can really answer that for sure since it' never been explained. My personal guess is that the chakra is still evenly divided but highly compressed somehow. When the bunshin is dispelled, all the pressure from the condensed chakra being released causes an explosion.. or something like that, who knows?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 0TaKu
No way Itachi could keep up with Lee, the Renge and Ura Renge is the result of extreme Taijutsu skill's heh, if Itachi could keep up with Lee that means Itachi could do these movies, oh but wait, Itachi cant even open any gates which is a requirement just for renge alone, which means he cant. Being able to open gates means your degree of taijutsu is seriously high, lee can open 5 which means beyond that, Itachi could keep up with Lee until he takes off the weights, then its over. Just like you said "Being able to see the attack means nothing if you don't have the reflexes to back it up". Itachi cant keep up with Lee, NO way in hell after the 3 year time skip, who knows how Lee is now he might be at Gai's level, you know how hard working Lee is, stop underestimating him. Itachi's Taijutsu is nice, but just like he "fears" Gai, he will fear Lee.
So, I guess I was seriously underestimating Lee when I assumed that a chuunin couldn't defeat someone who is feared by Orochimaru. And I guess that there's no way that Itachi could've obtained speed like Lee's even though Sasuke was able to accomplish it in only a month and is even faster post-timeskip. Ha. There was that time Sasuke was able to completely track and counter a Kyuubified Naruto's attacks when he was moving at the same speed Lee was when he took off his weights, but that was completely different right? Itachi couldn't hope to do that. Itachi being able to keep with Lee just wouldn't make sense seeing as how Gai opened up 6 gates just to deal with a clone of Kisame operating at 30% chakra capacity. I'm sorry. My gross neglect of facts in the manga has misled me. There's no evidence to back up that Itachi could ever hope to face someone who couldn't defeat Kimimaro. Oh and I forgot when acknowledging skill became "fear" I must've missed that.

Quote:
Speculations, "But I'll tell you" you don’t know that, your speculating but we do know this, Kakashi used the dogs to hold zabuza down, if the case was that he could have "1 shotted" zabuza then why even bother to hold him down.
Hey, all these posts are just ideas. Don't pull the 'it's all speculation' card unless you're willing to admit that all of your opinions are just as unproven as mine. Kakashi summoned those dogs to hold Zabuza down so he couldn't escape, but do you really think Zabuza could've stood motionless and deflected Kakashi's chidori with one hand if he were free? If your answer is 'yes' then he also should've been able to prevent Kakashi from kicking his butt all over the place.

Quote:
I think your forgetting Uchiha Madra, if people like Uchiha Madra, Itachi, His Father, Sasuke could exist in the Uchiha clan. I highly doubt there weren’t any others, when it ONLY comes to Kunai and Shuriken throwing skill's. Remember this is only about throwing skills which is a basic for every ninja. It's hard for me to believe that the people in the Uchiha clan who had the Sharingan couldn’t combine it with something as simple as throwing Kunai.
Perhaps. But you seem to realize that not all Uchihas are not geniuses right? Just because Sharingan offers a natural inclination towards a skill such as throwing weapons doesn't mean that all Uchiha developed it to the extent that Itachi did correct? If Sasuke stated that Itachi was better than his father wouldn't that indicate that he was better than the average Uchiha and certainly much better than the average ninja?
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Old 2006-11-04, 09:22   Link #46
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Originally Posted by 0TaKu0 View Post
I half agree with you on this one, its not exploding Kage Bunshin's but water clone's this is indeed amazing, the crazy thing about this is only Water clones create such an impact, can you imagine how big of an impact a kage bunshin which is a real body in almost every way possible would do? By the way only Naruto can afford to waste Kage Bunshins like that, thatís why Itach and NEARLY every other Ninja who makes clones stays away from Kage Bunshins and use some sort of Medium like Water, Wood, Ink to make their clones.
Sight, even After Pointing out that it was an Exploding Kage Bushin, people still avoid this...ohhh well, is scan Time...
Spoiler:


ohhh Notice how Kurenai Say its a Kage Bushin....

And I dont have the Correct transalations, but Kakashi and ASuma called it Kage Bushin also.
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Old 2006-11-04, 09:48   Link #47
Suna no tate
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Yes. But if it was a shadow clone there are problems. i can't trust kurenai's statement. How can she tell the difference between a shadow clone and a regular clone? No one apparently seems to be able to (kakashi certainly couldn't tell that zabuza's second attack was a clone) unless the user openly says "shadow clone jutsu" and even the third attacked mud clones of Oro that he thought were real. Nobody seems to be able to tell a real clone from a fake one except a byukugan user (sharingan users still have difficulty apparently since kakashi attakacked a water clone, and itachi himself attacked a water clone mistakenly). Kakashi too agrees with kurenai and in the data books its called an exploding shadow clone jutsu. I'm actually fine with that. Hear me out. I'm fine with that! But there are problems. 1 clone is 50% of his chakra. And he exploded it rather than just canceled the jutsu... that would make this one jutsu more costly than... amaterasu, or tsukuyomi.

Also about the manga being canon. Again I said personal preference, but if the anime users still cite your point, it only lends to strength of the argument and not detracts from it. I understand they add stuff, but still if they felt it necessary to add something..........I'm sure by now you see my point. Personally as long as its not grossly a misconception (like the filler episode where naruto throws a rasengan as a projectile), I'm cool with it. Besides most of the stuff is in the manga. So lets not get into a big heated argument and lets focus on the character known as Uchiha Itachi.
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Old 2006-11-04, 10:08   Link #48
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Originally Posted by Suna no tate View Post
Yes. But if it was a shadow clone there are problems. i can't trust kurenai's statement. How can she tell the difference between a shadow clone and a regular clone? No one apparently seems to be able to (kakashi certainly couldn't tell that zabuza's second attack was a clone) unless the user openly says "shadow clone jutsu" and even the third attacked mud clones of Oro that he thought were real. Nobody seems to be able to tell a real clone from a fake one except a byukugan user (sharingan users still have difficulty apparently since kakashi attakacked a water clone, and itachi himself attacked a water clone mistakenly). Kakashi too agrees with kurenai and in the data books its called an exploding shadow clone jutsu. I'm actually fine with that. Hear me out. I'm fine with that! But there are problems. 1 clone is 50% of his chakra. And he exploded it rather than just canceled the jutsu... that would make this one jutsu more costly than... amaterasu, or tsukuyomi.

Also about the manga being canon. Again I said personal preference, but if the anime users still cite your point, it only lends to strength of the argument and not detracts from it. I understand they add stuff, but still if they felt it necessary to add something..........I'm sure by now you see my point. Personally as long as its not grossly a misconception (like the filler episode where naruto throws a rasengan as a projectile), I'm cool with it. Besides most of the stuff is in the manga. So lets not get into a big heated argument and lets focus on the character known as Uchiha Itachi.
This is not a matter of trusting Kurenai, is that you have 3 characters saying it was a Kage Bushin and the Databook backing it out, there is no room for “I don’t trust because it does not sems like it”, its was the author stating this and we have to swallow it even if we don’t like it.

I know what you mean about the Clone taking 50% of Itachis Chakra, but remember is Chakra, not stamina, so the chakra used could had been only made of a small part of Itachis Stamina and not 50% of Itachi complete Chakra.

Something like this:

Itachi 90% Stamina.
Itachi use 10% of Stamina to create Chakra
Itachi Chakra at 10%
Itachi Makes Kage Bushin 5% of Chakra Used.
Itachi still at 80% Stamina


I used the Manga to show you it was stated it was a Kage Bushin. Im not saying that you have to like the Manga more than the Anime, and Even in the Anime IIRC It was called Kage Bushin.

Even if you have an personal preference over the Manga, that still does not matter, what has the corect information about The Series is the Manga, like for example Tusnade constantly Punching Orochimaru, whereas one punch of her Almost Killed Jiriaya, or The MS been shown to be as a Regular Sharingan. So, if you want to Learn about Naruto, instead of trying to prove your point in a debate. Then Take what the Manga say over the Anime.
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Old 2006-11-04, 10:09   Link #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
So, I guess I was seriously underestimating Lee when I assumed that a chuunin couldn't defeat someone who is feared by Orochimaru.
Your comparing Lee to Itachi before time skip, and then your saying its the same deal after time skip, that’s like saying Lee has not improved over the 3 years one bit. I'm only talking about how Lee is after the time skip, obviously before time skip Itachi was pretty much > everyone. As far as it goes Lee's speed is his own, in the Narutoverse Manga each ninja has something about them self that no one else has, that distinguishes them from others and maybe even puts them on PAR. I cant see just ANY one having Lee's speed without something special behind it, specially after 3 whole years of training. They gave Sasuke Lee's speed but took it right back saying it put too much strain on his body and he could only do it for a short amount, he couldn’t even do half the Renge without feeling pain. We don’t know what kind of things Lee has been through over 3 years, the things he has learned to underestimate him so much is not cool.

When I said fear, I put it in "Quotations" because the meaning of fear was not exactly what I was going for, Itachi doesn’t compliment people left and right, or even admire their skill's unless he is some one to be reckoned with. Obviously Itachi recognized Gai because of something, either its Taijutsu, speed, gates. Whatever ever it maybe he also warned Akatsuki second time around, just like he did with Kisame the first time around. This has to mean something, that Gai is some one who might be able to fight Itachi that’s at a disadvantage for Itachi, and being that Gai's specialty is Taijutsu, that could be the case.

Quote:
Hey, all these posts are just ideas. Don't pull the 'it's all speculation' card unless you're willing to admit that all of your opinions are just as unproven as mine.
I never said mine were not speculations, of course I am willing to admit you dont even have to ask me that, and my answer is "no" zabuza was dead he was done for, but the facts are facts, kakashi did hold him down, itachi did grab sasuke's hand, but so did kakashi. No Zabuza still would have gotten his ass kicked left and right, but maybe if he was free when Kakashi charged him with lightning edge, Haku would not have had to step in front of it and die.

Quote:
Perhaps. But you seem to realize that not all Uchihas are not geniuses right? Just because Sharingan offers a natural inclination towards a skill such as throwing weapons doesn't mean that all Uchiha developed it to the extent that Itachi did correct? If Sasuke stated that Itachi was better than his father wouldn't that indicate that he was better than the average Uchiha and certainly much better than the average ninja?
Yep, I realize this, but being a genius at that age is one thing and then developing it to that level later on because of, age, experience, and training is another. My argument was there has to be some jounin's or people who are older then him by 10-20 years who could match his throwing skills at that time. Sasuke did say Itachi was better then his father, but not ever one in the Uchiha clan. Just don’t forget we are talking about something as basic as throwing skills, I cant see something that basic being limited only to Itachi.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
And I dont have the Correct transalations, but Kakashi and ASuma called it Kage Bushin also.
You don’t have to tell me that, it's my bad at the time I was multi tasking and I neglected to look at the manga by choice, and due to my own negligence I decided to go on a whim hehe . But lets not forget Kurenai said "What a Shadow Clone?" meaning she doesn't know, she was just "Is that a shadow clone?". What if its a new Jutsu called Exploding Clone that Itachi invented?
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Old 2006-11-04, 10:16   Link #50
Rurik
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Originally Posted by 0TaKu0 View Post
But lets not forget Kurenai said "What a Shadow Clone?" meaning she doesn't know, what if its a new Jutsu called Exploading Clone that Itachi invented?
I think Kurenai Interrogation mark was not of been clueless of the Kage Bushin. The Sentence read like this:

A Kage Bushin? His jutsu speed is fast.

I think the first question was out of surprise and then Saying why she was surprised about it been a Kage Bushin. Ike if you see a 10 foot tall Giant Clown running, you could say out of surprise, A Giant Clown?


And regarding the Jutsu itself, The information of the Jutsu makes it seems as if a combination of the already made Kage Bushin with a Jutsu that explode.
Spoiler:



But it could be also an Special Kage Bushin that purpose is to explode as you pointed out.
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Old 2006-11-04, 10:23   Link #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
I think Kurenai Interrogation mark was not of been clueless of the Kage Bushin. The Sentence read like this:

A Kage Bushin? His jutsu speed are fast.

I think the first question was out of surprise and then Saying why she was surprised about it been a Kage Bushin. Ike if you see a 10 foot tall Giant Clown running, you could say out of surprise, A Giant Clown?


And reagrding the Jutsu itself, The information of the Jutsu makes it seems as if a combination of the already made Kage Bushin wiht a Jutsu that explode.
Spoiler:



But it could be also an Special Kage Bushin that purpose is to explode as you pointed out.
Sure that is a possibility, but if anyone saw a 10 foot Gaint Clown they would go "WTF a Gaint clown?" lol. You cant compare a Kage Bunshin to the Giant Clown because a Giant Clown us very uncommon, while a Kage Bunshin is common, so she COULD have been surprised (Which is most unlikely because a Kage Bunshin super common in Narutoverse, if she’s surprised by that theres something wrong with her. A Giant Clown in Narutoverse on the other hand is something else LOL.) OR she COULD have been trying to guess what it was.

None the less, we are both speculating so I don’t think either of us are correct lol. But I will support my theory with this.

Think about it this way, most Ninja's in the Narutoverse when they make clones they use a medium either, water, ink, wood, w/e etc.. that’s why the KB is a forbidden technique (mental stress, massive chakra waste etc..), Itachi knows how much chakra his Tsukuyomi and his Amaterasu takes. Knowing this why would he use a kage bunshin? He used Tsukuyomi 2 times that day, and Amaterasu 1 time... if he used a kage bunshin that means right off the bat he was at 50% Chakra that day. See my point? That’s like saying, his Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi does not take that much Chakra, while everyone knows it takes more then 30% so.. That could not have been a Kage Bunshin.
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Old 2006-11-04, 10:28   Link #52
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Originally Posted by 0TaKu0 View Post
Sure that is a possibility, but if anyone saw a 10 foot Gaint Clown they would go "WTF a Gaint clown?" lol. You cant compare a Kage Bunshin to the Giant Clown because a Giant Clown us very uncommon, while a Kage Bunshin is common, so she COULD have been surprised (Which is most unlikely because a Kage Bunshin super common in Narutoverse, if she’s surprised by that theres something wrong with her. A Giant Clown in Narutoverse on the other hand is something else LOL.) OR she COULD have been trying to guess what it was.

None the less, we are both speculating so I don’t think either of us are correct lol.
At least you got my observation wiht the Clown Example

Well, I think also that when the Shinoby see his opponent making some Clones, the person could sense what type of Clone is: Kage Bushin, Water Bushin or Regular Bushin, (maybe based on experience) It seems to me that this is like that. Now, telling who is the real and who is the copy is a different story.

But, Don’t mind me too much, Im someone that takes this types of quotes as factual unless they are proven in the Manga to be incorrect.

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Originally Posted by 0TaKu0 View Post
Think about it this way, most Ninja's in the Narutoverse when they make clones they use a medium either, water, ink, wood, w/e etc.. that’s why the KB is a forbidden technique (mental stress, massive chakra waste etc..), Itachi knows how much chakTsukuyomira his takes and his Amaterasu takes. Knowing this why would he use a kage bunshin? He used Tsukuyomi 2 times that day, and Amaterasu 1 time... if he used a kage bunshin that means right off the bat he was at 50% Chakra that day. See my point? That’s like saying, his Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi does not take that much Chakra, while everyone knows it takes more then 30% so.. That could not have been a Kage Bunshin.
Ohhh My friend, but you missed my reply to Suna no Tate:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rurik
I know what you mean about the Clone taking 50% of Itachis Chakra, but remember is Chakra, not stamina, so the chakra used could had been only made of a small part of Itachis Stamina and not 50% of Itachi complete Chakra.

Something like this:

Itachi 90% Stamina.
Itachi use 10% of Stamina to create Chakra
Itachi Chakra at 10%
Itachi Makes Kage Bushin 5% of Chakra Used.
Itachi still at 80% Stamina
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Old 2006-11-04, 10:38   Link #53
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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
Ohhh My friend, but you missed my reply to Suna no Tate:
Hmm, ok ok I'll give you this one, actually that makes alot of sence.

But, doesnít this nullify everything we know about the Kage Bunshin? This means a Ninja could convert 2 % of his Stamina in to 2 % of Chakra and create 2 perfect Kage Bunshins... which means a Ninja could convert 50% of his Stamina to 50% of his Chakra and create 50 Kage Bunshin's with each clone holding 1 % of his Chakra, while he still has 50% Stamina / Chakra left... and I guess we would call this a Tajuu Kage Bunshin.

So this means, Naruto is not the only one @_@?
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Old 2006-11-04, 10:50   Link #54
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Again, you have to understand my point here. The anime has to fill in subtleties that the manga doesn't cover. The manga does a good job covering the facts and a lot more, but there are some subtleties that have to be shown in an anime episode that will be automatically be passed over in the manga. To me, if the anime creators agree with me concerning a subtlety, then it only adds to the strength of the argument concerning that subtlety. Lets say in the manga, Gai says something that might be construed as being afraid, but only 50-50 either way. Lets also say I'm trying to argue that Gai was afraid at the time he said it. If in the anime, they show him as saying it with a fearful tone of voice, then it only lends to the strength of the argument. Its true that they may have it wrong, but the fact that they too agree means I'm not alone and only makes my argument stronger not weaker. That is my point. No more. No less. A good example is whether or not the 4th hokage was in the 3rd coffin summoned by orochimaru. Its strongly implied but not explicitly stated. But in the anime, the coffin is shown with the kanji of each hokage, and the 3rd coffin had the same symbol as on the 4th hokage jacket. That only lends to the strength of the argument that the 4th was summoned. That an outside 3rd party looked at the manga and reached the same conclusion adds to the strength of the argument.

About the kage bunshin, actually I want to point out the the name of the technique was simply exploding clone technique (not an exploding shadow clone technique). Kurenai and Kakashi both thought it was a shadow clone, but to tell the truth they could have both been wrong. Neither was in a position to judge accurately and so far nobody in the whole series of naruto (sometimes even a byakugan user) can tell the difference between shadow clones, clones made of stuff, and real people.

However personally, I don't think they [kakashi and kurenai] were wrong. It very well may have been a shadow clone. But the problems concerning the jutsu remain. Sorry Rurik, I just don't buy your explanation. If that were the way it was, shadow clone jutsu would be more prevalent and wouldn't have been banned. I'm sure you'll comment to counter this statement and go ahead. I'd be happy to read it.


Stamina is physical strength. Chakra is life energy. I don't see how your explanation actually explains anything as they are unrelated. When lee fights his chakra remains at 100 percent as he doesn't use any techniques that require chakra, but his stamina can go down to zero. When gaara fights, his physical stamina can stay at 100 percent (assuming he doesn't get hit) but can quickly drain his chakra. And I'm pretty sure mass shadow clone jutsu doesn't force 1000 clones. I'm pretty sure anything over about 150 is called mass shadow clone, though it can certainly be much higher.
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Old 2006-11-04, 10:51   Link #55
Rurik
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Hmm, ok ok I'll give you this one, actually that makes alot of sence.

But, doesnít this nullify everything we know about the Kage Bunshin? This means a Ninja could convert 2 % of his Stamina in to 2 % of Chakra and create 2 perfect Kage Bunshins... which means a Ninja could convert 50% of his Stamina to 50% of his Chakra and create 50 Kage Bunshin's with each clone holding 1 % of his Chakra, while he still has 50% Stamina / Chakra left... and I guess we would call this a Tajuu Kage Bunshin.

So this means, Naruto is not the only one @_@?

Well, The Functionality of the Clone relies in the amount of Chakra (we can agree on that), the only thing Itachi did with this Clone was make it explode, You did not see the clone doing anything else besides that, So in this specific case Itachi Kage Bushin that did noting, He really should not have wasted to much Chakra in it, But Just the right amount to create the bait and make the Kage Bushin explode, For me is not the Jutsu itself what it was Kick Ass, but the Ingenuity behind the trap laid out by Itachi. And thatís something that does not come with the Sharaingan.

A Shinoby can make a Dozen Kage Bushin even when he is out of Chakra, but this Kage Bushin will not be Functional, this is a direct Example when Kakshi made A lot of Kaeg Bsuhin even after saying he was almost out of Chakra.

Regarding Taijou Kage Bushin is different (and reason why I say is Forbiden) And this is pratically my Theory about it:

Regular Kage Bushin only makes the desire amount of Kage Bushin the user wants, meaning there is a direct control of it, But Taiju Kage Bushin forcedly creates a set amount of Bushin ( a Thousand Kage Bushin if im not mistaken) So if You do a Taijou Kage Bushin with no Chakra this could kill you given the Jutsu will try to extract enough Chakra to create at least 1000 Clones, even when your body does not have it, Kind of like Chidory and that Sasuke could only do it 2 Times, When He tried to do it the 3rd Time, the CS activate it as his Body begun to tap on His Stamina Forcedly.
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Old 2006-11-04, 11:11   Link #56
0TaKu0
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
Example when Kakshi made A lot of Kaeg Bsuhin even after saying he was almost out of Chakra.
Tsk tsk, you cant speculate those were kage bunshins, remember the lines from that chapter, Kakashi: "I can do that at least..., it might fool them." Kakashi's goal was only to fool them.

What Kakashi did was similar to a Tajuu Kage Bunshin (if indeed it was a Tajuu Kage Bunshin then lets apply your theory on why it was banned)

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Regarding Taijou Kage Bushin is different (and reason why I say is Forbiden) And this is pratically my Theory about it:

Regular Kage Bushin only makes the desire amount of Kage Bushin the user wants, meaning there is a direct control of it, But Taiju Kage Bushin forcedly creates a set amount of Bushin ( a Thousand Kage Bushin if im not mistaken) So if You do a Taijou Kage Bushin with no Chakra this could kill you given the Jutsu will try to extract enough Chakra to create at least 1000 Clones, even when your body does not have it, Kind of like Chidory and that Sasuke could only do it 2 Times, When He tried to do it the 3rd Time, the CS activate it as his Body begun to tap on His Stamina Forcedly.
Kakashi could have died on the spot, so I highly doubt those were kage bunshins. I'm pretty sure those were genjutsu, illusion clones, similar the ones that Naruto and Co faced during their time in the forest of death. Kakashi made an illusion with the last of his chakra making it seem like there were X amounts of him. (X being the # of Kakashi's that seemed to be in that chapter)
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Old 2006-11-04, 11:28   Link #57
Rurik
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Suna no Tate, Otakuo, You seem have some problems with How Chakra is created and how its works, IN chapter 90, everytngh is explained with details and graphs, Read it, so you will be more clear on to how it works


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Originally Posted by 0TaKu0 View Post
Tsk tsk, you cant speculate those were kage bunshins, remember the lines from that chapter, Kakashi: "I can do that at least..., it might fool them." Kakashi's goal was only to fool them.

What Kakashi did was similar to a Tajuu Kage Bunshin (if indeed it was a Tajuu Kage Bunshin then lets apply your theory on why it was banned)

Kakashi could have died on the spot, so I highly doubt those were kage bunshins. I'm pretty sure those were genjutsu, illusion clones, similar the ones that Naruto and Co faced during their time in the forest of death. Kakashi made an illusion with the last of his chakra making it seem like there were X amounts of him. (X being the # of Kakashi's that seemed to be in that chapter)
Yes as he stated, they were Kage Bushin but they were not Functionall, and it was not a Taijou, because he did not make a Thousand Clones, he only made a couple of Dozen of Clones that were just a Bluf.

Spoiler:


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Originally Posted by Suna no tate View Post
Again, you have to understand my point here. The anime has to fill in subtleties that the manga doesn't cover. The manga does a good job covering the facts and a lot more, but there are some subtleties that have to be shown in an anime episode that will be automatically be passed over in the manga.
No it doesnít, The anime creates those Subtleties on their own, they are not the Intellectual creator of the series, they do as they want without consent of the creator, what you see in the Anime is canon only for the Anime, But when you are going to Compare information of Both Anime and Manga, the anime will never be above the Manga, because the Manga is a source than comes directly form the Author, Like it or not.


Quote:
To me, if the anime creators agree with me concerning a subtlety, then it only adds to the strength of the argument concerning that subtlety.
No they donít, and this has been something that has happened in every series you can mention, The Studio the Anime team belongs too Buys the right to make the Anime based on Kishimoto Works, because they bought this right they are entitled to Do whatever they want, and they do not Agree with Kishimoto, Kishimoto has no Connection whatsoever with the Anime team.


Quote:
A good example is whether or not the 4th hokage was in the 3rd coffin summoned by orochimaru. Its strongly implied but not explicitly stated. But in the anime, the coffin is shown with the kanji of each hokage, and the 3rd coffin had the same symbol as on the 4th hokage jacket. That only lends to the strength of the argument that the 4th was summoned. That an outside 3rd party looked at the manga and reached the same conclusion adds to the strength of the argument.
No it wasnít strongly implied to anything to the likes, you have that mindset because you watch the ANime first, which is normal Physiological reaction of a Person

Quote:
About the kage bunshin, actually I want to point out the the name of the technique was simply exploding clone technique (not an exploding shadow clone technique). Kurenai and Kakashi both thought it was a shadow clone, but to tell the truth they could have both been wrong. Neither was in a position to judge accurately and so far nobody in the whole series of naruto (sometimes even a byakugan user) can tell the difference between shadow clones, clones made of stuff, and real people.
The Explanation on The Jutsu specifically state is a Kage Bushin, and in fact that Kakashi Saying is a Kage Bushin with his Sharingan, it tells you it was, IT was never said that a Shinoby could not tell what A Bushin is made off, Just that they cant tell who is the real one. So Explain to me Why Kakashi Kureani and Assuma and the Databook explanation are wrong? It seems to me that You simply donít like this, and thus create a more conveniently explanation.

Once again, People cant tell if one who is the clone or who is the Real one, but there are Shinoby who was reach to the Conclusion that the Clones Made were Kage Bushin rather than other type of Bushin.

Quote:
owever Personally, I don't think they [kakashi and kurenai] were wrong. It very well may have been a shadow clone. But the problems concerning the jutsu remain.
So what is it? Or it is a Kage Bushin as stated, or not? Decide yourself.



Quote:
Sorry Rurik, I just don't buy your explanation. If that were the way it was, shadow clone jutsu would be more prevalent and wouldn't have been banned. I'm sure you'll comment to counter this statement and go ahead. I'd be happy to read it.
My Explanation, was directly taken from the Manga, I did not made that up, go and read Ebisu explanation, if you donít buy it you are just denying what it says in the Manga.

Quote:
Stamina is physical strength. Chakra is life energy. I don't see how your explanation actually explains anything.
No, Stamina is no physical strength, and Chakra is certainly not life Energy, Chakra is the Combination of Both Psychical Energy and Spiritual energy , which both of them are extracted from the body, your Stamina determines how much Physical and Life energy you have. This was stated in Chapter 90 page 3

I will repeat Read Ebisu explanation on Jutsus Chapter 90 (and given your Confusion, Sakura Explanation on Chakra molding), Chakra is created from Stamina, And Thus this is how it works, You have an set amount of Stamina, and with this amount you create reason why Kakashi Could create more than A Dozen Kage Bushin with almost no Chakra.
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Old 2006-11-04, 11:56   Link #58
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I'm not doubting how chakra works, I understand but I'm doubting that during that chapter those were kage bunshins, just because he stated doesn’t mean its a fact, you can do different hand seals and say "Kage Bunshin" and the only Ninjutsu that will activate is the one you performed the hand seal's for. You don’t have to say the name of the Jutsu, to activate it, you just have to make the correct hand seals.

This was proven because, he said "Kage Bunshin No Jutsu, Kakashi Version" just because he said it doesn’t mean the hand seals he made was for the kage Bunshin, first look at his hand, a kage bunshin when Naruto does it, is 2 hands making a cross Kakashi is only using 1 hand with 2 finger's up.

I'm pretty sure that was a genjutsu technique.
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Old 2006-11-04, 11:58   Link #59
Suna no tate
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Rurik relax. Try to persuade not to yell!

Your first point about the anime is exactly one hundred percent my point. The anime has to create these subtleties that are passed over in the manga. How does kakashi's hair blow in the wind? The anime HAS to show it. The manga however doesn't. So yes, I agree completely with that entire statement: the anime creators take certain liberties without the author's consent and certainly if there is a conflict between the anime and the manga, the manga wins out. But thats isn't my argument. Still, my argument is that they are a third party giving interpretations. There are things within the manga that are questionable (for example how does kakashi's hair blow in the wind. Its completely ridiculous yes I know). Some people side one way, and the other people side the other way. My point is, the anime creators are a third party. They too have read the manga, and they in creating their anime had to make a decision. Should kakashi's hair blow left? blow right? be too stiff with lots of gel? and so on. They had to make a decision on it, while the manga almost never really has to draw kakashi's hair moving. The point I'm saying is, if someting is questionable, the fact that this 3rd party has formed an opinion that sides withone of the arguments strengthens that particular argument. If someone says, kakashi's hair is stiff, and another says his hair blows freely in the wind (a topic the manga doesn't pay any real attention to), if the anime shows his hair blowing in the wind, hey I think thats the stronger argument.

Actually here's why I think it was so strongly implied that the 4th was summoned. Oro summons the 1st hokage and the second hokage. Its possible he could have summoned someone else, but it would be weird. He summons the 1st hokage, the second hokage, and the 4th kazekage...Its possible of course. However the fact that the 3rd hokage immediately knew he had to stop the 3rd coffin and seemed to immediately recognize who was in the coffins before they opened, seems to indicate he knew personally who were inside (the 1st, 2nd, and 4th). Its also possible I'm mixing up the anime and the manga, and so I'll take a look just to confirm. There's also the fact that the anime shows the kanji. This is a big risk as the series is ongoing. If for example it were later revealed that the Oro really was summoning someone else, then they'd have made a huge mistake. This is really important. It shows how much they believe the 4th was in that coffin that they take such a huge risk in drawing his kanji. This is what I mean by adds to the strength of the argument. Its not fact. But a good strong outside opinion.

My point is a simple one. Nobody seems to be particularly good at saying what kind of clone something is until the clone is dispelled. The evidence of this is that people continually attack clones of all sorts thinking they are the real thing. If people could just look at a clone (as kakashi and kurenai did) and tell its a mud clone, or a water clone, or a shadow clone, they wouldn't be making the constant mistake of attacking the clone. My point is simple. If ninja can't tell if something is a real person or a clone at all, it seems odd that they'd be able to immediately look at something and securely say "oh thats a water clone, and oh thats a shadow clone". That person can't even securely say its a clone at all.

However, I will trust kurenai and kakashi's judgement and say it was a shadow clone. The name of the jutsu however is simply exploding clone and no more. But I will trust kurenai's and kakashi's judgement in this instant as there is really not much choice. However it is the problem of literally wasting chakra that bothers me.

As to the nature of stamina and chakra, your explanation still does not work. For one thing, if your definition is accurate it doesn't explain why the mass jutsu was banned. According to you, then the person could limit himself to just 10 percent chakra or 20% and spread it out over 10 or 1000 or 2000 clones (they wouldn't be great but nonetheless...). Your definition of the jutsu makes it incredibly useful, while in practice its not. Everyone seems to immediately recognize the jutsu when its used, but nobody uses it (despite all the advantages naruto gains from it). So with a new tentative definition will have to come a new tentative explanation of why it was banned en masse. The old definition makes much better sense as to why it was banned and why almost no one uses it. There are so few real situations it is useful. If chakra is evenly divided with clones, then forming one clone and having it destroyed costs you 50% of your chakra. If you form 100, each clone is worth less, but you yourself are limited in what you can do since you'd have only 1% of your total. Maybe around 5 or 6 clones would be a good mix, but even then that's a great risk. And remember how hesistant the third was before he used it. Splitting up ALL his remaining chakra was a big risk as if he couldn't get the seal off then... according to you, he could have just limited it to say splitting up 50% of his remaining or 25% of his remaining chakra.
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Old 2006-11-04, 12:01   Link #60
matsuno
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No, Stamina is no physical strength, and Chakra is certainly not life Energy, Chakra is the Combination of Both Psychical Energy and Spiritual energy , which both of them are extracted from the body, your Stamina determines how much Physical and Life energy you have. This was stated in Chapter 90 page 3

I will repeat Read Ebisu explanation on Jutsus Chapter 90 (and given your Confusion, Sakura Explanation on Chakra molding), Chakra is created from Stamina, And Thus this is how it works, You have an set amount of Stamina, and with this amount you create reason why Kakashi Could create more than A Dozen Kage Bushin with almost no Chakra.
Good nail down to put that part of the argument to rest (what I was ready to write out). But let's also add that there is the explanation for phyxical conditioning to be directly linked to chakra (which is why you dont have any pure fatty with great chakra for no apparent reasoning).

Kakashi makes a boost to this point when they show him climbing a cliff with one hand tied behind his back (the training time for the 3rd exam). This wasent for show or because he didnt think he was fit, but because incredible feats increase your bodies abilities. Its also attributed to why Itachi is cautious of Gai (a man that can walk on his hands for hours on end must have an insane amount of stamina.
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