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Old 2006-11-04, 12:41   Link #61
Sabaku Kyu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 0TaKu0
As far as it goes Lee's speed is his own, in the Narutoverse Manga each ninja has something about them self that no one else has, that distinguishes them from others and maybe even puts them on PAR. I cant see just ANY one having Lee's speed without something special behind it, epically after 3 whole years of training.
This comment made me pause when I read it (0TaKu0, I'm putting my debate with you on pause). I was going to reply that Itachi and Sasuke have speed that rival Lee's when he takes off his weights, but you can't really say that because it seems that Itachi and Sasuke (post-timeskip) have a different type of speed from Lee and Gai. What I mean is that Itachi and Saskue have something I like to call "offscreen speed". They don't zip around like hummingbirds on crack. Instead, you see them standing in one panel, then in the next panel (or animation frame for the anime) they're in an entirely different location several feet away, usually to the shock of their opponents. So, does this mean that their speed is entirely limited to short bursts, or that they simply prefer to use their speed in a more subtle way than Gai and Lee? Or is it not even "speed" at all and just a Sharingan-induced trick? I tend to think that the answer is that their speed is contained to short bursts. In any case, it's doubtful that they can reach the speed of Gai or Lee with multiple gates open.

Quote:
Originally Posted by matsuno
Kakashi makes a boost to this point when they show him climbing a cliff with one hand tied behind his back (the training time for the 3rd exam). This wasent for show or because he didnt think he was fit, but because incredible feats increase your bodies abilities.
Kakashi was a little out of shape when he did that excercise (he comments about how he remembers climbing being easier). But chakra does seem to be linked to physical conditioning. Not so much the amount of chakra, but stamina and the effectiveness of molding it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suna no Tate
Actually here's why I think it was so strongly implied that the 4th was summoned. Oro summons the 1st hokage and the second hokage. Its possible he could have summoned someone else, but it would be weird. He summons the 1st hokage, the second hokage, and the 4th kazekage...Its possible of course. However the fact that the 3rd hokage immediately knew he had to stop the 3rd coffin and seemed to immediately recognize who was in the coffins before they opened, seems to indicate he knew personally who were inside (the 1st, 2nd, and 4th). Its also possible I'm mixing up the anime and the manga, and so I'll take a look just to confirm. There's also the fact that the anime shows the kanji. This is a big risk as the series is ongoing. If for example it were later revealed that the Oro really was summoning someone else, then they'd have made a huge mistake. This is really important. It shows how much they believe the 4th was in that coffin that they take such a huge risk in drawing his kanji. This is what I mean by adds to the strength of the argument. Its not fact. But a good strong outside opinion.
I hate to break this out since I was the one who originally confirmed to you the kanji symbol on the coffin (an addition that does not contradict with manga and actually makes sense within the context of the story), however there are times when the anime directly contradicts the manga. An example would be from the very same battle between Sandaime and Oro. In the manga, the kusanagi sword that Oro uses is a katana, while in the anime it is changed into a broadsword or gladius type weapon. This was a change made by the anime for what seems to be merely preference. Sometimes anime additions/changes mesh well with the manga and sometimes they don't, and sometimes the line is kind of blurry. It's hard to chose when you can and cannot use an anime-only element as solid evidence. For this reason, anime-exclusive material is usually avoided altogether as a reference.
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Old 2006-11-04, 12:42   Link #62
Rurik
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 0TaKu0 View Post
I'm not doubting how chakra works, I understand but I'm doubting that during that chapter those were kage bunshins, just because he stated doesn’t mean its a fact, you can do different hand seals and say "Kage Bunshin" and the only Ninjutsu that will activate is the one you performed the hand seal's for. You don’t have to say the name of the Jutsu, to activate it, you just have to make the correct hand seals.

This was proven because, he said "Kage Bunshin No Jutsu, Kakashi Version" just because he said it doesn’t mean the hand seals he made was for the kage Bunshin, first look at his hand, a kage bunshin when Naruto does it, is 2 hands making a cross Kakashi is only using 1 hand with 2 finger's up.
Sihgt- in the page before he does the kage bushin hand seals, in the pager after, His clones disappear just like the ones made by Naruto, not to mention After Naruto made his Kage Busin, Kaksshi said ”I can also do that”

Spoiler:




Quote:
Originally Posted by Suna no tate View Post
Your first point about the anime is exactly one …..
One thing is how something moves given Manga cant show you movement, but the other is, trying to take a Statement or Action in the Anime over the Manga, those are 2 Totally different things.

Been that said, for example, The Anime team tough that the Mangekyu Sharingan looked like regular Sharingan, so they made Itachi doing the MS using the normal Sharingan, but we then learned that the MS and the normal Sharingan have different design. So who was correct here, the Anime or the Manga???

Quote:
Actually here's why I think it was so strongly implied that the 4th was summoned. Oro summons the 1st hokage and the second hokage. Its possible he could have summoned someone else, but it would be weird. He summons the 1st hokage, the second hokage, and the 4th kazekage...Its possible of course. However the fact that the 3rd hokage immediately knew he had to stop the 3rd coffin and seemed to immediately recognize who was in the coffins before they opened, seems to indicate he knew personally who were inside (the 1st, 2nd, and 4th). Its also possible I'm mixing up the anime and the manga, and so I'll take a look just to confirm. There's also the fact that the anime shows the kanji. This is a big risk as the series is ongoing. If for example it were later revealed that the Oro really was summoning someone else, then they'd have made a huge mistake. This is really important. It shows how much they believe the 4th was in that coffin that they take such a huge risk in drawing his kanji. This is what I mean by adds to the strength of the argument. Its not fact. But a good strong outside opinion.
Sandaime only stopped the 3rd Coffin because he could not stop the other 2, not because He needed to stop the 3rd coffin specifically. and It could had been any other Shinoby we don’t know of, that Sandaime could had been sentimentally attached, and not necessarily Yondaime.

The Anime team are just people like you and me, People who have a series an interpret them in their own ways, however this interpretation is not always compliant with what the Author wants, as the Anime team cant think exactly what the Author has in mind.

Quote:
My point is a simple one. Nobody seems to be particularly good at saying what kind of clone something is until the clone is dispelled. The evidence of this is that people continually attack clones of all sorts thinking they are the real thing. If people could just look at a clone (as kakashi and kurenai did) and tell its a mud clone, or a water clone, or a shadow clone, they wouldn't be making the constant mistake of attacking the clone. My point is simple. If ninja can't tell if something is a real person or a clone at all, it seems odd that they'd be able to immediately look at something and securely say "oh thats a water clone, and oh thats a shadow clone". That person can't even securely say its a clone at all.
The Mud Clones are Anime filler. And People attack Kage Bushin because they cant tell the difference, but given the Water clones has I/10th if the user real Capacity is easier to sense who is the real and who is not. As Kakashi could tell that the Water Bushin made by Zabuza was a Water Bushin, and not the real Zabuza.

And the fact about the Kage Bushin made by Itahci is that this are not the Character thinking by themselves, trying to figure out what Jutsu it is, is the author using 3 Characters to tell you what it is. the Author repeats 3, not one, or two, but TREE times that it was a Kage Bushin, and then the Databook goes ahead and say is a kage Bushin, So there is no room for argument here.

Quote:
However, I will trust kurenai and kakashi's judgement and say it was a shadow clone. The name of the jutsu however is simply exploding clone and no more. But I will trust kurenai's and kakashi's judgement in this instant as there is really not much choice. However it is the problem of literally wasting chakra that bothers me.
The problem is that is named Exploding Bushin, So Bushin can be anything, including Kage Bushin, but a stated fact that what Itachi did was a Kage bushin.

And the literally wasting chakra here is moot, any clone he would had done, would had wasted Chakra, it all depends on the amount of Chakra that the Ninja used for that Jutsu.

Quote:
As to the nature of stamina and chakra, your explanation still does not work.
This was stated in the Manga

Quote:
For one thing, if your definition is accurate it doesn't explain why the mass jutsu was banned. According to you, then the person could limit himself to just 10 percent chakra and spread it out over 1000 or 2000 clones. Your definition of the jutsu makes it incredibly useful, while in practice its not. Everyone seems to immediately recognize the jutsu when its used, but nobody uses it (despite all the advantages naruto gains from it). So with a new tentative definition will have to come a new tentative explanation of why it was banned en masse.
You seem to not get the point, in the Kage Bushin the user has a Control on The amount of Bushin he wants to do and thus have an idea of His Capacity of how many Clones he can do based on the chakra he just molded .

In Taijou Kage Bushin such control can’t be done, because the Taiju Kage Bushin will forcedly create more than 1000 clones regardless of the Stamina or Chakra that the user has.

Remember that even if a person has 5% chakra, just creating the clones even if the are not functional will cost some chakra; so for example, if creating a clone takes at least 1% of Chakra and you have 5% of chakra and do Kage Bushin, you would need a least 1% of Chakra to create one, but if Taiju Kage Bushin creates 1000 clones forcedly, what would happen with the 5% if each Clone will cost 1% of Chakra?

In Graph:

Naruto 5% Chakra, he can create 5 non-functional Bushin, each will have just 1% of Chakra.

Kakashi has 5% of Chakra, he is forced to create 1000 Kage Bushin Given Taju Kage Bushin, how much Chakra it would take from Kakash?i, IN this case The Clones would not equally divide this 5% into 1000, because to create a Kage Bushin, it will cost at least 1% of Chakra (remember this is just an example, as I dont know the amount of Chakra need to just create the Kage Bushin even if not functionall)

-----

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
Kakashi was a little out of shape when he did that excercise (he comments about how he remembers climbing being easier). But chakra does seem to be linked to physical conditioning. Not so much the amount of chakra, but stamina and the effectiveness of molding it.
Well, Yes, if you see what’s Chakra is made of the Physical condition is important, but lets not forget about the Spiritual Energy, Chakra is the Combination of Both, so Chakra efficenty depends on this 2 elements, and in order to your chakra to be augmented you need to max Both Physical energy, which you can gain more By training, and Spiritual energy which you get from Experience.
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Last edited by Rurik; 2006-11-04 at 12:57.
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Old 2006-11-04, 13:27   Link #63
Suna no tate
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Well for the most part you guys are right. But let me make little pointers here

1)I certainly agree the anime alone means nothing. But used in conjunction with the manga can strenthen an argument. the fact of the matter is these guys have to make the same calls we make from the same material and the fact of the matter is these guys have to stake their reputations on these calls. The thing about the kusanagi sword and its shape seems a rather minor thing, though I honestly don't recall what you say about a change in shape. Still that wouldn't bother me. What would bother me is if they altered its properties or something. But the first 2 sentences sum up my whole point. If there is a gray area in the manga, but is shown in the anime, what the anime shows is probably the stronger of the 2 sides. To me whether or not the 4th was in that casket is definitely a gray area.

2) About the exploding shadow clone, I'm not sure what you really want from me. I concede the it very well may have been a shadow clone, but its also clear that people have difficulty in identifying clones, much less what type of clone it is. If I could look at a clone, and tell immediately it was a water clone for example, that would mean I could identify a person and a water clone pretty much instantly. But so far, nobody can. Byakugan users have to turn on their abilities in order to even have a decent shot. However being able to identify a person and a clone requires less specificity than being able to tell one type of clone from the other. My point is, most people (kakashi and itachi included) can't even do the easier of the two (which is easier, telling a clone from a person, or telling one type of clone from the other before either clone is dispelled or destroyed? Clearly the former). About the zabuza clone, its obvious the other zabuza was a clone because the real one was 2 feet away from kakashi trapping him. And it's obvious the other clone is a water clone because it was formed from water right in front of kakashi's eyes (not sure if thats in the manga too). Even without that being in the manga, because we'd already seen one water clone be dispelled, its clear the other clone used by zabuza too was a water clone. However its obvious kakashi can't tell water clones from zabuza upon sight, since kakashi tried to kill a water clone that he thought was zabuza. The one he recognized was the one that was formed right in front of him after he was trapped in the water prison. Itachi too made the mistake of attacking a kakashi water clone (even he couldn't tell it was a water clone). So how can kakashi securely say "thats a shadow clone"? He might have known it was a clone because the real itachi was 20 ft away, but what type of clone? If he can't tell a water clone from a real person, how can he tell a water clone from a shadow clone from a mud clone (at least until the clone is dispelled or destroyed? (Are mud clones really anime filler? Oro didn't use them against sasuke, anko, and the 3rd hokage?). But because thats what they said for now thats what we have to believe. Thats really all I had to say.

3)I still really have a hard time with your definition, but I will try and work with it. Let me ask this though: so 1000 clones is really bad. Why don't we see people use the 10 clone variation? Or the 20 clone? Why was the third so hesitant to use it just to create 3 clones? And why don't we see more people training with shadow clones? They may not be running 1000 or 200 like naruto, but even with 1 clone cuts training down by half. Again, my point about your definition is that it makes the jutsu too useful and yet in practice it seems its not that useful unless you are Naruto. So that is where I'd like to you [Rurik or any bystander] to pick up. The standard definition explains all of these things.
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Old 2006-11-04, 14:43   Link #64
matsuno
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Actually, you guys are all wrong on the Kage Bushin part. Where Water Clones are much weaker than the original user (because they are made with only a minor amount of Chakra), the Kage Bushin is unique in that it is Bushin that is physical and evenly splits Chakra among the clones and the original user.

That is to say if the user had a numerical value of 1000 and made 2 clones, the Clones would have 333 each and the orinal user would be reduced to 333. This is explained in the Negi / Naruto fight, as his Byakugan is unable to differentiate between the clones and the real naruto by just the Chakra in each one.

They also touch on the use of Kage Bushin as a waste of Chakra in the Oro / Sandaime fight, as there is a justifyable cost of chakra in molding them in the first place, that other "cheaper" Bushins are more effective for deceiving, though a Kage Bushin would be far more effective to fight with (which, as we know, at the end of the fight, it is the type of Bushin he ends the fight with).

Lastly, because of the cost of using Kage Bushin, doing a mass Kage Bushin for minutes would likely be too much for most Elite Jounin. Naruto is special as we know for his capasity of Chakra, so when Kakashi says its something only he could do, he wasent kidding (of course this also asks us then, why not use a more reasonable amount of Kage Bushin to train with, but that would come back as, no one ever thought of it, or if they had, they figured it not worth it).
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Old 2006-11-04, 15:04   Link #65
Rurik
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Originally Posted by Suna no tate View Post
1)I certainly agree the anime alone means nothing. But used in conjunction with the manga can strenthen an argument. the fact of the matter is these guys have to make the same calls we make from the same material and the fact of the matter is these guys have to stake their reputations on these calls. The thing about the kusanagi sword and its shape seems a rather minor thing, though I honestly don't recall what you say about a change in shape. Still that wouldn't bother me. What would bother me is if they altered its properties or something. But the first 2 sentences sum up my whole point. If there is a gray area in the manga, but is shown in the anime, what the anime shows is probably the stronger of the 2 sides. To me whether or not the 4th was in that casket is definitely a gray area.
The Anime in Conjunction with the Manga would not help strength your argument, on the contrary, it will make it twisted, given the Anime Change a lot of thing that goes against what the Author wanted:

-Tsunade punching Orochimaru countless Time whereas One Punch Of Tsunade and that’s it.

-The Anime showing that the MS has the same design as the Sharingan.

-The Anime showing that Tsunade could heal Rock Lee based on Kabuto healing Ability, rather than Tsunade’s own medical expertise.

-The Anime not showing all of the corpses left Behind after the Konoha war.

-The anime making Orochimaru and Sandime have a fight which show them to be almost equal whereas Oro never really fought against Sandaime.

Spoiler:


And let me not even go to the fillers that are currently on, you talk about reputation this guys have… you probably have not seen Mizuki converted in to a Tiger. So this guys does not care about such reputation as long as what they animated is making them money.

Quote:
2) About the exploding shadow clone, I'm not sure what you really want from me. I concede the it very well may have been a shadow clone, but its also clear that people have difficulty in identifying clones, much less what type of clone it is.
People has problem telling if they are real or not, however once they now there is a Clone, they have shown to tell what type of Clone it is, Given the shinoby will sense it.


Quote:
If I could look at a clone, and tell immediately it was a water clone for example, that would mean I could identify a person and a water clone pretty much instantly. However being able to identify a person and a clone requires less specificity.
Is not that, is that you can tell that what the Shinoby did was a water clone and not a Kage Bushin, however they could not tell the difference between the real one and the Copy. Kurenai Sayd Kage Bushin, howver, She was not aware which was the real or which was the Clone.


Quote:
About the zabuza clone, guess what. Its obvious the other zabuza was a clone because the real one was 2 feet away from kakashi trapping him. And it's obvious the other clone is a water clone because it was formed from water right in front of kakashi's eyes (not sure if thats in the manga too). .....).
Zabuza made a Mis concelment Justu before using he water Clone, SO Kakshi could not tell were was the real Zabuza, He used A mitzu Bushin to atack Zabuza Mitzu Bushin in other to try and bait the real Zabuza out, but in turns out that Zabuza made a second Mitzu bushin to break Kakshis plans.

Once Again Im not talking about Telling who is the KB or any other Bushin and who is not, Im talking about telling what the Bushin made of.


Quote:
So how can kakashi securely say "thats a shadow clone"? He might have known it was a clone because the real itachi was 20 ft away, but what type of clone? If he can't tell a water clone from a real person, how can he tell a water clone from a shadow clone from a mud clone (at least until the clone is dispelled or destroyed?
How can he say securely what the clone is made of? Because you seem to have forgotten, this characters say what the Author wants them to say, not because this Character are sentient and have doubts, everything they said is what the Author states, if The Author state this are Kage Bushin, then this is a fact, and only can be negated with another fact.

Now lets look at the perspective of the Shinoby if it were a real person , Sometimes Naruto has done Kage Bushin, some people has made the expression, “those are not regular Bushin, those are real bodies” as How could, for example :

Spoiler:


The Answer is because they Simply can tell, given there Shinoby experience and there senses they can tell some subtleties of what they have in front, and Sensing whether a Clone is made just of Water, or the Clone is a Kage Bushin because it has Heart beats (which is something a water Bushin does not have) will depend how much the Shinoby is Good and sensing this things, so 3 Jounnin Shinoby could at least tell that The Copy of someone they are seen is made form an specific element.

Quote:
(Are mud clones really anime filler? Oro didn't use them against sasuke, anko, and the 3rd hokage?). But because thats what they said for now thats what we have to believe. Thats really all I had to say.
Against ANKO it was a Kage Bushin, against Sasuke he did not used that, Neither against Sandaime, which Orochiamru never confronted directly in the Manga.


Quote:
3)I still really have a hard time with your definition, but I will try and work with it. Let me ask this though: so 1000 clones is really bad. Why don't we see people use the 10 clone variation? Or the 20 clone?.
Because even for A Jounnin, creating 10 or 20 Clones that are functional is almost (if not) impossible for them, and hence they don’t do that.

Quote:
And why don't we see more people training with shadow clones?
Spoiler:


Quote:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:


Quote:
Originally Posted by matsuno View Post
Actually, you guys are all wrong on the Kage Bushin part. Where Water Clones are much weaker than the original user (because they are made with only a minor amount of Chakra), the Kage Bushin is unique in that it is Bushin that is physical and evenly splits Chakra among the clones and the original user.

That is to say if the user had a numerical value of 1000 and made 2 clones, the Clones would have 333 each and the orinal user would be reduced to 333. This is explained in the Negi / Naruto fight, as his Byakugan is unable to differentiate between the clones and the real naruto by just the Chakra in each one.

They also touch on the use of Kage Bushin as a waste of Chakra in the Oro / Sandaime fight, as there is a justifyable cost of chakra in molding them in the first place, that other "cheaper" Bushins are more effective for deceiving, though a Kage Bushin would be far more effective to fight with (which, as we know, at the end of the fight, it is the type of Bushin he ends the fight with).

Lastly, because of the cost of using Kage Bushin, doing a mass Kage Bushin for minutes would likely be too much for most Elite Jounin. Naruto is special as we know for his capasity of Chakra, so when Kakashi says its something only he could do, he wasent kidding (of course this also asks us then, why not use a more reasonable amount of Kage Bushin to train with, but that would come back as, no one ever thought of it, or if they had, they figured it not worth it).
This is true when they Are Functional, but as Kakashi showed you, He could make more than 20 kage Bushin with almost no chakra, This is because the Chakra divided by the Kage Bushin is the Chakra molded, and not the Stamina.
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Last edited by Rurik; 2006-11-09 at 15:23.
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Old 2006-11-04, 15:07   Link #66
0TaKu0
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matsuno View Post
Actually, you guys are all wrong on the Kage Bushin part. Where Water Clones are much weaker than the original user (because they are made with only a minor amount of Chakra), the Kage Bushin is unique in that it is Bushin that is physical and evenly splits Chakra among the clones and the original user.

That is to say if the user had a numerical value of 1000 and made 2 clones, the Clones would have 333 each and the orinal user would be reduced to 333. This is explained in the Negi / Naruto fight, as his Byakugan is unable to differentiate between the clones and the real naruto by just the Chakra in each one.

They also touch on the use of Kage Bushin as a waste of Chakra in the Oro / Sandaime fight, as there is a justifyable cost of chakra in molding them in the first place, that other "cheaper" Bushins are more effective for deceiving, though a Kage Bushin would be far more effective to fight with (which, as we know, at the end of the fight, it is the type of Bushin he ends the fight with).

Lastly, because of the cost of using Kage Bushin, doing a mass Kage Bushin for minutes would likely be too much for most Elite Jounin. Naruto is special as we know for his capasity of Chakra, so when Kakashi says its something only he could do, he wasent kidding (of course this also asks us then, why not use a more reasonable amount of Kage Bushin to train with, but that would come back as, no one ever thought of it, or if they had, they figured it not worth it).
Well, this throws Ruriks explanation out the window, because this is correct a Kage Bunshin is a REAL body, its as if the user has been cut in half, or more depending on how many clones they create. So basically what Matsuno is saying is your not allowed to chose how much chakra you want to put in your Kage Bunshin, just if you make a Kage Bunshin, your getting cut in half, in 3, in 4's 5's 100's 1000's etc... which makes more sense.
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Old 2006-11-04, 15:49   Link #67
Rurik
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 0TaKu0 View Post
Well, this throws Ruriks explanation out the window, because this is correct a Kage Bunshin is a REAL body, its as if the user has been cut in half, or more depending on how many clones they create. So basically what Matsuno is saying is your not allowed to chose how much chakra you want to put in your Kage Bunshin, just if you make a Kage Bunshin, your getting cut in half, in 3, in 4's 5's 100's 1000's etc... which makes more sense.
No, my explanation is basically a copy of what was explained in the Manga, you said this:

Quote:
I'm not doubting how chakra works, I understand...
You are basically saying you know how it works, but your latest post shows You don't know how it works.:

What Kage Bushin divides is CHAKRA, not STAMINA, CHAKRA and Stamina are 2 totally different things, when the KAGE BUSHIN makes the split of the Chakra, it does based on the Chakra that is currently molded, once again I will post how it works:

Itachi 90% Stamina.
Itachi use 10% of Stamina to create Chakra
Itachi Chakra at 10% Stamina at 80%
Itachi Makes Kage Bushin 5% goes to Itachi 5% the Clone created
Itahci still has 80% of Stamina to create more Chakra.
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Old 2006-11-04, 16:01   Link #68
Suna no tate
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I grow tired of this discussion.
1)MS was indeed shown fully and properly in the anime during a sasuke flashback. During the fight they just showed some goofy transition graphic. Who cares? We know what it is. They were just trying to make it more mysterious. So what?
2)Tsunade punching orochimaru multiple times. Who cares? We know she has chakra augmented strength. Its been said one punch will kill you. I personally don't care. And if an argument comes up over her strength, nobody will care if its used or left out.
3)I don't even remember this healing rock lee thing you mention. So again, who cares? It was shown several times she has to do all that medical mumbo jumbo. So who cares? Didn't he have some sort of special surgery in the anime? I mean who cares?
4)The anime not showing all the corpses? Who cares? We know? We saw the devastation. Who cares if its cut out for viewing purposes?
5)And the prefight with Saindaime and Oro? Who cares? They themselves said they were just fooling around and neither was serious. So what?

None of the things you said really matter and none of the things shown really fool anyone into some false belief. Nobody believes that konaha was untouched after the invasion and that only the 3rd died. Nobody believes tsunades punches are weak and etc. That stuff was shown to flesh out an episode or to save space or time. None of that stuff actually means anything or can later come to ruin the series. None of that stuff is vital stuff they got wrong. I prefer to use the anime as a 3rd party when I'm talking about stuff thats gray and questionable. Voices and attitudes can be questionable. How serious someone takes something said, can be questionable. The thing with the hokages is a huge grey area. The manga shows that the 3rd immediately knew the inhabitants of the coffins before they were opened. the manga shows that the coffins had the kanjis of the hokages. As to the third coffin, thats the grey area. That is something that can be cared about. Is yondaime really in the belly of the god or can he show up later in the series? That can completely screw things up. You can see how screwing that up is more significant that showing tsunade punch orochimaru a few too many times (and I don't even remember that). Anyway, all the stuff above this, is my opinion and not yours. Don't even respond to it because I'm saying fine, its just my opinion. Respond to the stuff below.

Ok. I'm telling you that people can't even tell a clone from a real person just by looking at it, so how can they tell by looking at someone what kind of clone he is? Here is your response. They just can. Essentially thats it. Thats the response you give. They just look at the clone and say its a sand clone or an ink clone or whatever. Just like that. Here's what I'm saying. Typically, almost every single time, they nature of the clone is only known when the clone is dispelled. When naruto does it, he tells people what the stupid clone is. He's telling you its a stupid shadow clone. Most people are smart enough to shut up about that. Other than naruto, I will say with boldness there is no instance in the entire manga where someone immediately saw a clone and knew it was a certain type of clone without that clone being dispelled or destroyed previously or the user didn't announce it. I defy you to show me one. One time where someone says "oh thats a whatever clone" and the clone hadn't been previously used or destroyed or whatever. He knew it right away, just by looking at it. If you can't show one, you really don't have much to stand on. I don't even want a response. Ijust want a picture from the manga where one person, anyone, says something like I stated before. Just one picture or give me the manga reference as in chapter or the anime reference as in episode, and I will look and if you're right, then I will be very happy.

You never really answered the shadow clone question. Again, if one clone can save you 50% of time with training, why isn't everyone using them? After all itachi can afford to blow up clones and with your definition people can limit how much chakra they want to use. Again, your definition makes the jutsu far too useful while the standard definition explains everything very well. So you really have to explain yourself. Remember we think your definition is too useful. That is the problem. Thats what you have to address. You have to address how it kage bunshin isn't as useful as it seems with you definition, why the 3rd was hesistant to use it, why it was banned, and how naruto is overriding the problem inherent to the jutsu. With the standard definition, its rather easy to answer all these questions. Now since you have your own, you have explain them.

But I grow weary. Just try and keep it short and simple for us simple minded folks. Avoid the quotes. Just explain.
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Old 2006-11-04, 16:05   Link #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
You are basically saying you know how it works, but your latest post shows You don't know how it works.Chakra.
Maybe I should have made my self more clear it seems this happens allot but its my fault for assuming people will know what I mean when I say something.

When I said, I'm not doubting how chakra works, I understand...

I meant, I’m not doubting your explanation of how Chakra work's because its straight out of the Manga (How could i doubt something from the source), and I do understand what your saying, but what matsuno said is what brought me to the conclusion, that the chakra that is distributed through out the clones, is only the chakra that is molded by the user, and not the overall chakra the user contains.

Your not allowed to choose how much chakra you want to distribute, but you are allowed to choose how much you want to mold depending on how good you are.

I was not saying your explanation was wrong, it might have sounded that way, I was saying matsuno's explanation was better and it throws yours out the window because it brings people to ask that question "What’s the flaw between the Byakugan and the Sharingan in term's of differentiating clones from real body‘s" and the conclusion that what's distributed through out the clones is the chakra that is molded and not the Chakra the jutsu user has overall.

The flaw of the Byakugan is that it only view's molded chakra so it show's the chakra of all the body's, which are the same because its evenly distributed. (that’s besides the point though, I was just answering the question matsuno's explanation forces you to ask.)

I will however, ask this, does this explination discredit Wiki? This is stright from Wiki.

Spoiler:


So.. wiki explanation seems totally wrong no?
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Old 2006-11-04, 16:41   Link #70
astayanax
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No way Itachi could keep up with Lee, the Renge and Ura Renge is the result of extreme Taijutsu skill's heh, if Itachi could keep up with Lee that means Itachi could do these movies, oh but wait, Itachi cant even open any gates which is a requirement just for renge alone, which means he cant. Being able to open gates means your degree of taijutsu is seriously high, lee can open 5 which means beyond that, Itachi could keep up with Lee until he takes off the weights, then its over. Just like you said "Being able to see the attack means nothing if you don't have the reflexes to back it up". Itachi cant keep up with Lee, NO way in hell after the 3 year time skip, who knows how Lee is now he might be at Gai's level, you know how hard working Lee is, stop underestimating him. Itachi's Taijutsu is nice, but just like he "fears" Gai, he will fear Lee.
No proof that Itachi can't keep up with Lee when:

a) He has the best reflexes of anyone shown in the entire series
b) He is the best person in regards to casting jutsus in regards to speed of anyone shown in the entire series
c) He is the best sharingan user upto date
d) He is one of the fastest people shown

I mean heck, Kimmimaro was easily keeping up with Rock Lee and he was dying. The only time Rock Lee had an edge over a dying Kimmimaro was when he was using his unpredictable drunken monkey style; which had nothing to do with speed.

Lastly, Itachi wasn't scared of Gai at all. He just wanted to leave the scene.

Lee, nor Gai; just like Kakashi (before Kakashi got the MS anyway) won't last seconds against a remotely serious Itachi.
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Old 2006-11-04, 16:55   Link #71
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Originally Posted by astayanax View Post
No proof that Itachi can't keep up with Lee when
Astayanax, I ask that you please read the rest of the back and forth reply's on this matter that has come from my self and Sabaku Kyu before you get in to a discussion this serious. Instead of commenting on it from the first and the root. If your going to do something half heartedly donít bother doing it at all.

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Originally Posted by 0TaKu0 View Post
No way Itachi could keep up with Lee, the Renge and Ura Renge is the result of extreme Taijutsu skill's heh, if Itachi could keep up with Lee that means Itachi could do these movies, oh but wait, Itachi cant even open any gates which is a requirement just for renge alone, which means he cant. Being able to open gates means your degree of taijutsu is seriously high, lee can open 5 which means beyond that, Itachi could keep up with Lee until he takes off the weights, then its over. Just like you said "Being able to see the attack means nothing if you don't have the reflexes to back it up". Itachi cant keep up with Lee, NO way in hell after the 3 year time skip, who knows how Lee is now he might be at Gai's level, you know how hard working Lee is, stop underestimating him. Itachi's Taijutsu is nice, but just like he "fears" Gai, he will fear Lee.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
So, I guess I was seriously underestimating Lee when I assumed that a chuunin couldn't defeat someone who is feared by Orochimaru. And I guess that there's no way that Itachi could've obtained speed like Lee's even though Sasuke was able to accomplish it in only a month and is even faster post-timeskip. Ha. There was that time Sasuke was able to completely track and counter a Kyuubified Naruto's attacks when he was moving at the same speed Lee was when he took off his weights, but that was completely different right? Itachi couldn't hope to do that. Itachi being able to keep with Lee just wouldn't make sense seeing as how Gai opened up 6 gates just to deal with a clone of Kisame operating at 30% chakra capacity. I'm sorry. My gross neglect of facts in the manga has misled me. There's no evidence to back up that Itachi could ever hope to face someone who couldn't defeat Kimimaro. Oh and I forgot when acknowledging skill became "fear" I must've missed that.
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Originally Posted by 0TaKu0 View Post
Your comparing Lee to Itachi before time skip, and then your saying its the same deal after time skip, thatís like saying Lee has not improved over the 3 years one bit. I'm only talking about how Lee is after the time skip, obviously before time skip Itachi was pretty much > everyone. As far as it goes Lee's speed is his own, in the Narutoverse Manga each ninja has something about them self that no one else has, that distinguishes them from others and maybe even puts them on PAR. I cant see just ANY one having Lee's speed without something special behind it, specially after 3 whole years of training. They gave Sasuke Lee's speed but took it right back saying it put too much strain on his body and he could only do it for a short amount, he couldnít even do half the Renge without feeling pain. We donít know what kind of things Lee has been through over 3 years, the things he has learned to underestimate him so much is not cool.

When I said fear, I put it in "Quotations" because the meaning of fear was not exactly what I was going for, Itachi doesnít compliment people left and right, or even admire their skill's unless he is some one to be reckoned with. Obviously Itachi recognized Gai because of something, either its Taijutsu, speed, gates. Whatever ever it maybe he also warned Akatsuki second time around, just like he did with Kisame the first time around. This has to mean something, that Gai is some one who might be able to fight Itachi thatís at a disadvantage for Itachi, and being that Gai's specialty is Taijutsu, that could be the case.
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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
This comment made me pause when I read it (0TaKu0, I'm putting my debate with you on pause). I was going to reply that Itachi and Sasuke have speed that rival Lee's when he takes off his weights, but you can't really say that because it seems that Itachi and Sasuke (post-timeskip) have a different type of speed from Lee and Gai. What I mean is that Itachi and Saskue have something I like to call "offscreen speed". They don't zip around like hummingbirds on crack. Instead, you see them standing in one panel, then in the next panel (or animation frame for the anime) they're in an entirely different location several feet away, usually to the shock of their opponents. So, does this mean that their speed is entirely limited to short bursts, or that they simply prefer to use their speed in a more subtle way than Gai and Lee? Or is it not even "speed" at all and just a Sharingan-induced trick? I tend to think that the answer is that their speed is contained to short bursts. In any case, it's doubtful that they can reach the speed of Gai or Lee with multiple gates open.
With that said, Astayanax this discussion for me is only between my self and Sabaku and it is currently on pause, as you read. So I choose not to comment any further on this matter, until Sabaku is ready, anything you have stated is probably already in there, or just not worth mentioning.
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Old 2006-11-04, 16:56   Link #72
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Originally Posted by astayanax View Post
No proof that Itachi can't keep up with Lee when:

a) He has the best reflexes of anyone shown in the entire series
b) He is the best person in regards to casting jutsus in regards to speed of anyone shown in the entire series
c) He is the best sharingan user upto date
d) He is one of the fastest people shown

I mean heck, Kimmimaro was easily keeping up with Rock Lee and he was dying. The only time Rock Lee had an edge over a dying Kimmimaro was when he was using his unpredictable drunken monkey style; which had nothing to do with speed.

Lastly, Itachi wasn't scared of Gai at all. He just wanted to leave the scene.

Lee, nor Gai; just like Kakashi (before Kakashi got the MS anyway) won't last seconds against a remotely serious Itachi.

As much as I'd love to disagree. I'm going to have to agree with everything you said. Itachi is the baddest guy on the show, and he's only 20. He's been kage level since he was thirteen years old, and that's without the help of a biju.
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Old 2006-11-04, 17:02   Link #73
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Originally Posted by astayanax View Post
No proof that Itachi can't keep up with Lee when:

a) He has the best reflexes of anyone shown in the entire series
b) He is the best person in regards to casting jutsus in regards to speed of anyone shown in the entire series
c) He is the best sharingan user upto date
d) He is one of the fastest people shown

I mean heck, Kimmimaro was easily keeping up with Rock Lee and he was dying. The only time Rock Lee had an edge over a dying Kimmimaro was when he was using his unpredictable drunken monkey style; which had nothing to do with speed.

Lastly, Itachi wasn't scared of Gai at all. He just wanted to leave the scene.

Lee, nor Gai; just like Kakashi (before Kakashi got the MS anyway) won't last seconds against a remotely serious Itachi.
Agreed. I'm tired of reading this discussion. The past couple pages can be summed up like this:

poster A: Itachi did not use kage bunshin
poster B: It was stated 3 times that it was kage bunshin
poster A: so? that doesnt mean it was actually kage bunshin
poster B: but it really was. It also has it's own name that is an A-rank jutsu.
poster A: I dont care, I watch the anime and I'm sticking by my beliefs, even if the original manga content proves otherwise, I will believe what I want.
poster B: K well, Itachi is still a genius, just look at how fast his hand seals are.
poster A: THE AKATSUKI CLOAKS HIDE HAND SEALS ROFLZ!
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Old 2006-11-04, 17:56   Link #74
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He's the final villian for Sasuke, of course he'll be hyped up\considered strong as much as possible like the AL\Orochimaru whichever it is for Naruto :P

And Lee's speed was exxagerated in the anime, I mean heck, Sasuke reached his speed without weights in a period of what? A month.....and Kimimaru was able to keep up with Lee during their fight.

The databook even goes as far as to mention he's above par in even basic Shinobi skills and there's still a question mark on his amount of power to be shown.
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Old 2006-11-04, 17:56   Link #75
Suna no tate
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The anime discussion has nothing to do with itachi's strength. to tell the truth, I've completely forgotten what it was about. The thing about the cloak hiding hand seals is quite true. After all he doesn't even have his hands in the sleeves most of the time. And he pulled them out to show shurikens after he formed the seal (which probably wasn't a long one anyway. Naruto uses a one hand seal sequence for his kagebunshin). It is odd though that a bunch of rather individualistic ninja choose to dress alike. I mean, they don't have to. There's only 9 of them and they pretty much know each other. They rarely are gathered together where it might matter or mean something. And those cloaks hide everything including faces at times. If the cloak had a purpose, like giving a slight edge in battle maybe (hidan uses his cloak to hide pikes, kakuzu hides his arms which are sort of mechanical looking), then it makes a bit more sense.

There were no references to the speed of his hand seals was made. People just said they couldn't keep up with the jutsus, probably meaning with the trickery or the fluidity of the jutsu sequences or how well the combinations work together. One right after another after an another, each time making you more and more unprepared. He's a tricky guy that itachi. But its up to you to come to your own conclusions.

He's also twice been noted for saying don't underestimate Gai. Whatever you think that means is up to you.

About lee's speed, sasuke did reach it, but that was without weights I believe, not in an open gate state. In the fight with kimimaro, wasn't he still technically crippled? Can you count that? I assume that if Lee does fight itachi, he'd probably be healthy and in a gated state. However I'd still give the nod to itachi since he has good trickery behind him.

Anyone actually think Sasuke will actually be the one to kill him? For some reason, I just don't see it happening. I see him losing badly and having to be rescued by a good friend, either kakashi or naruto. I just don't see it happening because if Sasuke does kill Itachi, then thats it. He gives his body over to Orochimaru, and naruto has to abandon the whole rescue sasuke monkey that he's been carrying. Thats a pretty big monkey to lose. And it still hasn't been clearly decided who is better: naruto or sasuke. So I don't know...
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Old 2006-11-04, 18:01   Link #76
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The cloak hiding thing is ridiculous, Kakashi mentioned the actual seal speed of Itachi, not how he hid it and tricked him :|

Quote:
He's also twice been noted for saying don't underestimate Gai. Whatever you think that means is up to you.
Maybe because someone else was going up against Gai?

He's also shown respect to Kakashi. Whatever you think that means is upto you =/
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Old 2006-11-04, 18:21   Link #77
Suna no tate
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Originally Posted by Wrath of the Uchiha View Post
The cloak hiding thing is ridiculous, Kakashi mentioned the actual seal speed of Itachi, not how he hid it and tricked him :|



Maybe because someone else was going up against Gai?

He's also shown respect to Kakashi. Whatever you think that means is upto you =/
Ok. Here is the response. I guess its really how you look at it. First here are the links in order.

http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/1228/1hi9.jpg
http://img71.imageshack.us/img71/7743/2uv9.jpg
http://img74.imageshack.us/img74/659/3gk3.jpg
http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/2774/4zy5.jpg
http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/2388/5jw8.jpg

Ok. They are pretty clear. Just look at his hands. 2-5 are direct sequence frames. 1 and 2 are in order but there was some talking in the middle that doesn't mean anything. Anyway for 1 and 2 his hands are completely hidden inside the cloak. he doesn't even have his arms in the sleeves. For 3 to 5 more or less the same. He only pulls out his hands for the shuriken distraction and to stab the kakashi water clone and when he does stab the clone, he has only one hand out. However the clone formed has both hands tucked inside the cloak, that his his arms aren't in the sleeves. He could be forming seals inside and is probably doing so. As he forms these seals, it looks like he's doing nothing. Thus he seems faster and is. I don't doubt that the sequence of jutsus is fast compared to how other jounins use them. I just want to point out that they may seem even a little faster than normal because its like he's just doing stuff and no one knows how he's doing it, when its really a pretty simple trick. Keep hands and arms inside the cloak and no one will see you forming hand seals. Thus your jutsus will appear to come out of the blue.

I'm sure there are still doubters which is fine. I would like them to address this question. The question to ask his this, does itachi walk around with shurikens in between his fingers? Probably not. So he pulled them out while no one was looking. How is that possible, when they were looking right at him? Well he's wearing a big cloak.... and so on...
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Old 2006-11-04, 18:33   Link #78
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Suna man, i had to say this but dude you need to find some new scanlations. I'm serious those are some of the worst one's i have seen, the translation seems off.. makes the characters seem like some one they are not.

By the way not to go off topic, but is anyone getting the new Naruto game? No, not the Xbox360 one, the PS2 one Naruto: Uzumaki Chronicles Super bad ass.
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Old 2006-11-04, 18:37   Link #79
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Ok. They are pretty clear. Just look at his hands. 2-5 are direct sequence frames. 1 and 2 are in order but there was some talking in the middle that doesn't mean anything. Anyway for 1 and 2 his hands are completely hidden inside the cloak. he doesn't even have his arms in the sleeves. For 3 to 5 more or less the same. He only pulls out his hands for the shuriken distraction and to stab the kakashi water clone and when he does stab the clone, he has only one hand out. However the clone formed has both hands tucked inside the cloak, that his his arms aren't in the sleeves. He could be forming seals inside and is probably doing so. As he forms these seals, it looks like he's doing nothing. Thus he seems faster and is. I don't doubt that the sequence of jutsus is fast compared to how other jounins use them. I just want to point out that they may seem even a little faster than normal because its like he's just doing stuff and no one knows how he's doing it, when its really a pretty simple trick. Keep hands and arms inside the cloak and no one will see you forming hand seals. Thus your jutsus will appear to come out of the blue.
You could analyse all that

Or

Take Kakashi's comment at face value, he saw Itachi doing seal speeds and mentioned they were too fast for him to follow, even Kurenai mentioned that.

Sheesh, it isn't court evidence we are looking at here, it's a manga meant for 12 year old kids. :|
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Old 2006-11-04, 18:43   Link #80
Suna no tate
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Haha. I see your point. Ok well let me say one more thing and then this will be it. This is probably the most well known image of itachi out there. Its been photoshopped a million times and given all sorts of fancy backgrounds, but this form of itachi is the icon or the symbol for him.

http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/8831/itaachipf1.jpg

He clearly hides his hands during battle. And he's still doing seals. So he's doing seals that are hidden. Thats the whole point. even a 12 year old can see that. hehe Now I'm in a much better mood. thanks!
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