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Old 2006-11-04, 18:52   Link #81
Wrath of the Uchiha
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suna no tate View Post
Haha. I see your point. Ok well let me say one more thing and then this will be it. This is probably the most well known image of itachi out there. Its been photoshopped a million times and given all sorts of fancy backgrounds, but this form of itachi is the icon or the symbol for him.

http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/8831/itaachipf1.jpg

He clearly hides his hands during battle. And he's still doing seals. So he's doing seals that are hidden. Thats the whole point. even a 12 year old can see that. hehe Now I'm in a much better mood. thanks!
That doesn't affect my point, Kakashi or Kurenai didn't mention how he couldn't see the seals properly, Kishimoto didn't even hint it in even a word.

It was flat out stated his seals were too fast to follow, maybe you coulnd't see them because of the cloak and all, but Kakashi and Kurenai sure as hell did and commented on it.

It's really turned into a case of the author's word vs a reader nitpicking in a picture =/
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Old 2006-11-04, 18:56   Link #82
Rurik
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suna no tate View Post
I grow tired of this discussion.
1)MS was indeed shown fully and properly in the anime during a sasuke flashback. During the fight they just showed some goofy transition graphic. Who cares? We know what it is. They were just trying to make it more mysterious. So what?
2)Tsunade punching orochimaru multiple times. Who cares? We know she has chakra augmented strength. Its been said one punch will kill you. I personally don't care. And if an argument comes up over her strength, nobody will care if its used or left out.
3)I don't even remember this healing rock lee thing you mention. So again, who cares? It was shown several times she has to do all that medical mumbo jumbo. So who cares? Didn't he have some sort of special surgery in the anime? I mean who cares?
4)The anime not showing all the corpses? Who cares? We know? We saw the devastation. Who cares if its cut out for viewing purposes?
5)And the prefight with Saindaime and Oro? Who cares? They themselves said they were just fooling around and neither was serious. So what?
Precisely my point, you don't care because you choose not to care and then Have A twisted observation regarding the Manga, hence when you post something, what you post is incoherent things, because you are mixing elements that are not supposed to be mixed- and What's your answer? who cares if what I know is just garbage? Yeah, thats the answer I was expecting from someone that who just don't want to listen when other point out they're Incorrect.

Quote:
None of the things you said really matter and none of the things shown really fool anyone into some false belief.
Really? You seem to be more lost about the Series than Anybody i have debated before, and the best part is that you think you are not wrong, even when there is a statement that proves you wrong. that's denial.

I mean how many Time I had to Correct you not only in this thread? Quite a lot, I wonder what is that? Maybe because you have mixed the Manga wiht the Anime? two totally different Universe?. Each time you have a new question and you are lost in a lot of stuff, DEbating against thing stated in the manga and at the end in only seems if you are clueless abpout the series.

Quote:
Ok. I'm telling you that people can't even tell a clone from a real person just by looking at it, so how can they tell by looking at someone what kind of clone he is? Here is your response. They just can.
Essentially thats it. Thats the response you give.
No I responded to you because they can sense it, I gave you a logical explanation inside what the series is.

Then I gave the real reason why they know that, because is the author stating that for us to know, I mean, When Sasuke begun the Chidory to do it against Itachi and Itachi said "Chidory", Do we have to say..."Hmmmm maybe Itahci is wrong and thats not the chidory".

The author use the Character as Narrative tools, putting the character Been able to tell that the clone made by an opponent is a Kage Bushin, is done so we the reader knows whats going on, instead of creating Wacky ideas to ourselves for something that is not even that trivial.

Quote:
They just look at the clone and say its a sand clone or an ink clone or whatever. Just like that. Here's what I'm saying. Typically, almost every single time, they nature of the c....
All of this just so you can see this:

Spoiler:


I wonder how SAkura, someone who is a Rookie tell that they are real bodies from affar?

And I could look for more instances were its the same, but quite frankly as we both now you will just try to look for a reason to debate against it, and Thats just Bad Faith.

Now Show One instance were The Author has Named the Jutsu and this is not the Jutsu that is was mentioned to be, unless in the same Manga he correct this?

Quote:
You never really answered the shadow clone question. Again, if one clone can save you 50% of time with training, why isn't everyone using them? After all itachi can afford to blow up clones and with your definition people can limit how much chakra they want to use. Again, your definition makes the jutsu far too useful while the standard definition explains everything very well. So you really have to explain yourself. Remember we think your definition is too useful. That is the problem. Thats what you have to address. You have to address how it kage bunshin isn't as useful as it seems with you definition, why the 3rd was hesistant to use it, why it was banned, and how naruto is overriding the problem inherent to the jutsu. With the standard definition, its rather easy to answer all these questions. Now since you have your own, you have explain them.
A) the Jutsu that ws BAned was the TAJU KAGE BUSHIN, not the Kage Bushin. this is like the 6th time I Have told you this. The Only Character that has used Taju Kage Bushin so far is Naruto, and everyone knows why.

B)Sandaime was not hessitant of using Kage Bushin, however everyone that saw Sandaime doing that tauhgt to be a foolsih move, because he depleated his Chakra creating Functionall Kage Bushin took away a lot of Sandaime stamina, but only Sandaime knew the real purpose of this Clones.

C) And abaout why is not so useful for training its because of what Im going to explain bellow.

Your major flaw is that you Think Chakra and Stamina is the same:



Now, Suna no Tate, you want to know why people don't use Kage Bushin in traning, at least one? the simple reason, you need to make a functional clone to do the Training, and this will only serve to duplicate your Rate of learning, but then you forget that, The Training itself cost Chakra and Stamina, or Only Stamina, So Doing A Kage bushin for Someone that does not has Chakra to spare as Naruto, this is unpractical and maybe dangerous.

And for once Kakshi explained it very well why Kage Bushin is not used fro training:



So, Kakashi is not saying that people cant use Kage Bushin to train, is that to use a Kage Bushin to train, you need to make a Kage Bushin that its functional, SO its a Kage Bushin that has More chakra than a Kage bushin like Itachi could do or Kakshi,in the case of Itahci he made one so it can explode.

Or in Kakashi and Naruto case in the Zabuza arc, Make a lot of Kage Bushin with almost no Chakra, but this Kage Bushin were so un-functional that they disappeared just seconds after they were created.

Now Otakuo, I really dont now what is it that you dont get, if you understand about Chakra molding and Stamina, then you should be clear as their is nothing wrong with Wiki explanation as its exactly the same as mine.

I think your main problem is with the amount of Chakra a Kage Bushin cost, it seems you think that what the user divides is the entire Chakra the user can produce, and not the Chakra he Molded.

The chakra that is not molded is Something that can't bee seen by the Byakugan, but it can se the Chakra already Molded, and because every clone will have the same amount of Chakra and the Original, the Byakugan will not tell the difference.

Let me know if you need further explanation, because I really was not sure what is the problem with my explanation, and the correction I made to matsuno.
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Last edited by Rurik; 2006-11-04 at 19:16.
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Old 2006-11-04, 19:13   Link #83
0TaKu0
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
I think your main problem is with the amount of Chkara a Kage Bushin cost, it seems you think that what the user divides is the entire Chakra the user can produce, and not the Chakra he Molded.

So the chakra that is not molded is Something that can't bee seen by the Byakugan, but it can se the Chakra already Molded, and because every clone will have the same amount of Chakra and the Original, the Byakugan will not tell the difference.
Lmao, Rurik are you confused? or did you not read correctly, what you typed up there stating what my problem is, that is EXACTLY what I wrote down there. It's not a problem, you misunderstood this is what I know already. I know the flaw of the Byakugan, I Know about the molded distribution of the Chakra.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 0TaKu0 View Post
Maybe I should have made my self more clear it seems this happens allot but its my fault for assuming people will know what I mean when I say something.

When I said, I'm not doubting how chakra works, I understand...

I meant, I’m not doubting your explanation of how Chakra work's because its straight out of the Manga (How could i doubt something from the source), and I do understand what your saying, but what matsuno said is what brought me to the conclusion, that the chakra that is distributed through out the clones, is only the chakra that is molded by the user, and not the overall chakra the user contains.

Your not allowed to choose how much chakra you want to distribute, but you are allowed to choose how much you want to mold depending on how good you are.

I was not saying your explanation was wrong, it might have sounded that way, I was saying matsuno's explanation was better and it throws yours out the window because it brings people to ask that question "What’s the flaw between the Byakugan and the Sharingan in term's of differentiating clones from real body‘s" and the conclusion that what's distributed through out the clones is the chakra that is molded and not the Chakra the jutsu user has overall.

The flaw of the Byakugan is that it only view's the molded chakra so it show's the chakra of all the body's, which are the same because its evenly distributed. (that’s besides the point though, I was just answering the question matsuno's explanation forces you to ask.)

I will however, ask this, does this explination discredit Wiki? This is stright from Wiki.

Spoiler:


So.. wiki explanation seems totally wrong no?
So as you can see the one who seems to be confused is you because.. your saying "I think your main problem is" but what you stated, is the exact same thing I stated, BUT the reason I posted the Wiki definition is because,

I am asking you what your opinion on this is, for you to read the wiki definition because guess what, the wiki definition does not mention anything about any molded chakra, it repeatedly uses the "over all chakra of the user" line.

All I'm saying is, is wiki not wrong? I'm not trying to prove anything using Wiki's definition, what I'm saying is, wiki is missing the whole molded chakra part, and giving a wrong definition when it comes to the Kage Bunshin, and the Tajuu Kage Bunshin? Get it now? It discredit's wiki
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Old 2006-11-04, 19:30   Link #84
Rurik
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 0TaKu0 View Post
So as you can see the one who seems to be confused is you because.. your saying "I think your main problem is" but what you stated, is the exact same thing I stated, BUT the reason I posted the Wiki definition is because,

I am asking you what your opinion on this is, for you to read the wiki definition because guess what, the wiki definition does not mention anything about any molded chakra, it repeatedly uses the "over all chakra of the user" line.

All I'm saying is, is wiki not wrong? I'm not trying to prove anything using Wiki's definition, what I'm saying is, wiki is missing the whole molded chakra part, and giving a wrong definition when it comes to the Kage Bunshin, and the Tajuu Kage Bunshin? Get it now? It discredit's wiki
I see know, when the Definiton say the user overalls Chakra is talk about the Chakra the person has, not the Chakra he has not created, and this is made very clear in Ebisu explanation.

The Kage Bushin don't tap directly into Stamina, That Wiki say "Overall Chakra" its quite understandable that the person intended to mean the Chakra the person currently has, that is totally different from the Stamina the person has.

One word of avise, dont trust wikki 100% anyone can go and edit the information posted as this info could be inaccuratte, outdated, or the person editing could try to explain it wiht his own words which can conffuse people later on.

Use the Manga and Databooks, which are 100% direct information (not 100% accurate iven translation mistakes). as I don't recall in Manga that When they talked abaout Kage Bushin they said "Överall Chakra"
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Old 2006-11-04, 19:41   Link #85
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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
One word of avise, dont trust wikki 100% anyone can go and edit the information posted as this info could be inaccuratte, outdated, or the person editing could try to explain it wiht his own words which can conffuse people later on.
Well that explains it man, I was wondering wtf that [edit] link on wiki was for, I thought it might be for admin's who work for wiki or, you needed a password to edit the information or something like that. Damn I didn’t know just any one can go and edit the information. In any case, some one needs to go add the molded chakra part to wiki so it could be more clear.

Gona be using the data books from now on.

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Old 2006-11-05, 03:05   Link #86
Sabaku Kyu
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It's become difficult to post on this topic. It seems like somehow the subject got wrapped up around the nature of Itachi's Kage Bunshin and how Kage Bunshin is performed in general. But the bigger picture that remains is Itachi's skill level. People basically seem to view Itachi in two ways:

- He's a Kage-level, god-like shinobi in all aspects

- He's basically just an elite jounin (around the skill level of Kakashi or Gai) with an overpowered doujustu


Discussing the topic back and forth on this thread, the matter is largely subject to one's interpretation. A lot of topics come up: Because he has a bloodline, can he really be compared to geniuses such as the 3rd, Orochimaru and Yondaime who do not rely on a kekkai genkai? His taijutsu's good, but is it as good as Gai's and Lee's? Can he really make handseals that fast or is he just hiding his hands within his cloak? So, I'm going to basically re-address the issues and give an assessment of his talent based on my honest opinion and the observations of others. I'll leave anyone who cares to agree or disagree with the evaluation.

On his bloodline:
Itachi's Sharingan is an inherited gift, but it's obvious that not everyone can take it as far as Itachi has (it's not even proven that all Uchiha obtain Sharingan) . In fact, someone on Itachi's level seems to be exceedingly rare even within the Uchiha clan. So the vast majority of his skill comes from his own talent. That makes him as much as a genius of ninja just as much as the 3rd or the Sannin.

On his ninjustu:

Itachi is probably one of the best ninjutsu users in the series. Of course, most of the time he prefers to rely his Mangekyou Sharingan, but if he has the Sharingan his repretoire of copied moves might be as large as technique specialists like Kakashi and Orochimaru. Like most Uchiha, he is an expert at Katon. There is some question as to how complicated some of his techniques like the exploding KB are, how much chakra they use, etc., etc. But one thing is clear, he is able to use all his ninjutsu in ingenuitive and effective ways. He does seem to lack a summon however, something most of the strongest ninja nearly all have. But once again it can be argued that he doesn't really need one with MS

On his taijutsu:
As it's been stated, Itachi isn't really a taijutsu user. But his taijutsu seems to be quite good and is enhanced by Sharingan. His level in taijutsu really seems to come down to a question of speed and how it compares to Gai's and Lee's. It is hard to compare the two since Itachi has "offscreen speed" (which I explain in an earlier post) while Gai and Lee have overall speed. Presumably, Itachi can open at least the first gate as this is a apparently a jounin requirement, meaning he could keep with Gai or Lee if they took their weights off, but probably not after they started releasing a higher number of gates. Overall, I'd say Itachi is near the peak of taijustu skill one can achieve without actually becoming a taijutsu specialist.

On his genjutsu:
Itachi is a genjustu user with no rival (except for possibly Uchiha Madara). Even without his devestating Tsukuyomi, Itachi can use high-level genjutsus that require no doujustu and are very hard to dispel.

On his handseals:
Itachi has almost never been seen performing hand seals. Whether or not this is due to his arms being inside the cloak can't be said for sure. The unseen seals might be another aspect of his "offscreen" speed or it could be due to his cloak concealing the movements. For the most part, Itachi does seem to keep his hands concealed within his sleeves, but this doesn't mean that he isn't performing the hand seals extremely fast.

So looking at Itachi's skills without taking Mangekyou into consideration, I think I would consider him somewhere in between elite jounin and Sannin/Kage if such a level is even possible. I really want to see how he fares in his future battles, especially against Kakashi. Kakashi having a Mangekyou Sharingan of his own now, is a good measuring stick of Itachi's skill. Kakashi did well against Itachi's clone, but the substitute was only operating at 30% of Itachi's normal chakra. How powerful would Kakashi be against a normal powered Itachi at this point?
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Old 2006-11-05, 08:45   Link #87
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Yea yea, good analysis.

I pretty much agree on the last part "I think I would consider him somewhere in between elite jounin and Sannin/Kage if such a level is even possible".

Yet, "Kakashi did well against Itachi's clone, but the substitute was only operating at 30% of Itachi's normal chakra", that doesnt matter. It just means less chakra present in the body. Chakra is like fuel for a car. Not like a car would drive any slower with less fuel, it just wouldn't be able to drive the same distance (or as long as) as another car with a filled tank.

So perhaps Itachi couldn't use MS (as likely one MS jutsu takes about 30% of his capacity, which is exactly the amount that was sent to the clone), but skill wise he wasn't any different. And yet again Kakashi had proven to be quite on par with him, though still the underdog.

So yeah... assuming versus Oro or Jiraiya, Kakashi would be way out of his league (according to Jiraiya himself also). I don't think Itachi could match any of the sannin, if it was for regular ninja skills. Jutsu, speed, chakra-wise, instead of "cheap" trumpcards, which includes MS imo (as if Itachi 13 year old would be stronger than Oro if it wasn't for that cheap thing).

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Old 2006-11-05, 11:06   Link #88
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If you don’t mind, I would like to contribute to your analysis, most of the topic's here came about to a different level between you and I.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post

On his bloodline:
Itachi's Sharingan is an inherited gift, but it's obvious that not everyone can take it as far as Itachi has (it's not even proven that all Uchiha obtain Sharingan) . In fact, someone on Itachi's level seems to be exceedingly rare even within the Uchiha clan. So the vast majority of his skill comes from his own talent. That makes him as much as a genius of ninja just as much as the 3rd or the Sannin.
True, but I don’t think its THAT obvious, we already know how to attain the Mangekyo Sharingan, and to be honest it doesn’t sound too hard, as cold as that sounds. What I mean is, any weak ass Uchiha who is seeking more power, if they could bring them self to kill their best friend (who might be some one really weak, or not even a Ninja) Can attain the Mangekyo Sharingan.

Don’t get me wrong, by all means I’m not saying just because they have the Sharingan or even the Mangekyo Sharingan they can do what Itachi does with his. By all means hell no, Itachi is no doubt special, but to go as far as to say some one as far as Itachi in the Uchiha clan is extremely rare. That might be the case cause everyone is freaking dead, they were not given a chance.

What about Madra, what about the Future Sasuke, what about Future Uchiha that would have lived if it was not for Itachi, and obviously someone had to find out about Tsukuyomi, or Amaterasu, or Mangekyo Sharingan because there are records of how to attain them in the Uchiha history. Yea as far as it goes, In Narutoverse right now, because the whole Uchiha clan is dead, and Sasuke is still too weak and cant kill his best friend, not everyone can take it as far as Itachi because they never got the chance to.
Quote:

On his ninjustu:

Itachi is probably one of the best ninjutsu users in the series. Of course, most of the time he prefers to rely his Mangekyou Sharingan, but if he has the Sharingan his repretoire of copied moves might be as large as technique specialists like Kakashi and Orochimaru. Like most Uchiha, he is an expert at Katon. There is some question as to how complicated some of his techniques like the exploding KB are, how much chakra they use, etc., etc. But one thing is clear, he is able to use all his ninjutsu in ingenuitive and effective ways. He does seem to lack a summon however, something most of the strongest ninja nearly all have. But once again it can be argued that he doesn't really need one with MS
No argument here. Except it would be nice if he could summon something like, a scarlet spider..ish thing ;P.
Quote:
On his taijutsu:
As it's been stated, Itachi isn't really a taijutsu user. But his taijutsu seems to be quite good and is enhanced by Sharingan. His level in taijutsu really seems to come down to a question of speed and how it compares to Gai's and Lee's. It is hard to compare the two since Itachi has "offscreen speed" (which I explain in an earlier post) while Gai and Lee have overall speed. Presumably, Itachi can open at least the first gate as this is a apparently a jounin requirement, meaning he could keep with Gai or Lee if they took their weights off, but probably not after they started releasing a higher number of gates. Overall, I'd say Itachi is near the peak of taijustu skill one can achieve without actually becoming a taijutsu specialist.
Because our debate is on pause on this matter, I wont say much except. I agree with one thing, Itachi and Sasuke seem to have "Off Screen" speed just as you stated, this makes me wonder. Most likely? It's short bursts of speed, kind of like shunpo from bleach (flash step). Then there's always the question, is it a Sharingan induced trick? Where they use the Sharingan to show they are still there, and "release" once they are next to you or behind you, making it seem as if the just appeared there "off screen speed".

However, this also brings up this question, how do we know this is not done to show character? By that I mean, this whole off screen thing, remember this is a manga it shows no motion at all (like hair moving in the wind), so how do we know this is not something added to Sasuke and Itachi, to show the "Cool factor" that they are making them more popular with their fans?

In the Anime, you cant see this "Off screen" speed, any time you see Sasuke or Itachi move at a fast rate, its either a kage bunshin, OR you see them fade out in a distorted way EX: around the start of the Anime the Zabuza arc, the fight when Sasuke Call's Naruto scaredy Cat in that fight, to protect Sakrua and the Client Sauske appears in front with them with that distorted fade out Image, and again during the Zabuza fight. (This can be seen as short bursts of speed)

So you see my point? Although the Anime does not hold much status here, Sasukes and Itachi's off screen speed in the mange, could have been done to give character, effect, depth, and coolness.
Quote:
On his genjutsu:
Itachi is a genjustu user with no rival (except for possibly Uchiha Madara). Even without his devestating Tsukuyomi, Itachi can use high-level genjutsus that require no doujustu and are very hard to dispel.
No arguement here.
Quote:
On his handseals:
Itachi has almost never been seen performing hand seals. Whether or not this is due to his arms being inside the cloak can't be said for sure. The unseen seals might be another aspect of his "offscreen" speed or it could be due to his cloak concealing the movements. For the most part, Itachi does seem to keep his hands concealed within his sleeves, but this doesn't mean that he isn't performing the hand seals extremely fast.
Once again, this comes down to the Taijutsu stuff, his hand seals. Are they because of short bursts speed? Off screen speed? or his real speed?

I'll add this, OR is it a Sharingan Induced Trick? Using the Sharingan to make it seem like his hands are not moving, while he performs the seals.

I'll once again go with short burst's of speed because of the Manga / Anime example I typed down In the Taijutsu section up there.

Quote:
So looking at Itachi's skills without taking Mangekyou into consideration, I think I would consider him somewhere in between elite jounin and Sannin/Kage if such a level is even possible. I really want to see how he fares in his future battles, especially against Kakashi. Kakashi having a Mangekyou Sharingan of his own now, is a good measuring stick of Itachi's skill. Kakashi did well against Itachi's clone, but the substitute was only operating at 30% of Itachi's normal chakra. How powerful would Kakashi be against a normal powered Itachi at this point?
I wont accept Sannin/Kage, Itachi had trouble with Jiraiya. The first time around lets not forget in the Anime OR the Mange, how confident Jiraiya was, they fled.

No don’t blame this on the fact that Itachi didn’t have much Chakra, if that was the case they wouldn’t try to get rid of Jiraiya using a Woman. The fact is they them self said Naruto is under the protection of a Sanin, PLEASE stop underestimating the level of Kage and Sanin.

I'll accept that without the MS Itachi would be considered a ELIT Jounin, but that is All. No way in hell Sanin/Kage level when he ran from Jiraiya, even with his MS. Also waited around for the right opportunity and using a woman so they wont have to face Jiraiya.
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Old 2006-11-05, 11:56   Link #89
Mr. Johnny 5
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I seriously think that this Kakashi is being overestimated.

Think of like this:
[Pre-timeskip]
Kakashi's lvl compared to Itachi is different...since he cant even follow his handseals.

My thought: Itachi made his handseals (behind the cloak) BEFORE he took out his shuriken. OR he already used Kage Bunshin (replaced himself with the one taking out the Shuriken) took out his Shuriken while the real one already initiated the handseals.

Itachi made 5 moves and is praised:

- Countered Kurenai's Genjutsu (Kurenai got out)
- Kicked Kurenai (She blocked)
[Kakashi comes in]
{Bla bla Kisame would get hurt fighting Kakashi...meaning their levels arent too different but Kisame would be better}
- Itachi tries to attack Kakashi 2 times (Water technique to hit his legs, shuriken in his back)
- Kakashi dodges with his Water Clone...and dodges his exploding Kage Bunshin.
(Its hard to say at this point if Kakashi is hurt because we dont see any damage)
- Itachi starts his Mangekyou Sharingan+Tsukyomi
(Kakashi mentally damaged and faints)

That happened nothing more. Itachi was at that point already running low on chakra. Seems fitting Kisame has a huge amount of chakra while Itachi has a much lower amount, and is behind the Kyuubi.

[Scene vs Jiraiya]
The only thing that happened is that Sasuke got his ass kicked and they were forced to flee. Itachi HAD to use Ameterasu & Tsukyomi (for his personal schedule)...
Kisame in this case couldnt do anything about it. He'd die right away with Itachi's help.

Also remember that fighters with insane power (Naruto going Kyuubi for example, Sannin, Kages, Akatsuki members) are STRONGER when they fight alone without anyone else interfering.

(Not to compare but even Tenten mentioned: "If Lee was alone he wouldnt lose of these guys" (Sound trio, Forrest of Death))

Which means Itachi is always at an advantage since his techniques are small range, high damage...he is THE character for One-on-One fights.

And his greatest strenght is his greatest weakness: Mangekyou Sharingan and it's jutsu's.

i'd really like to know what exactly happened between Itachi & Orochimaru.
My only thought would be that he got hit by both Tsuykomi & Ameterasu.

Probably Tsukyomi had little effect on Orochimaru because he is the devil himself while Ameterasu made him burn till he switched bodies .
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Old 2006-11-05, 12:41   Link #90
Lollerpants
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Wow there are still people that are going with the "omgx0r Gai p4wnS Itachi!!"

...Uh.. Yeah sure okay. I don't see how people can say much of Itachi's taijutsu being bad when they haven't even seen it as much and when it is shown the power behind it is definitely there for a purpose.

The whole REASON for Itachi kicking Kurenai off into the water WHILE she was blocking and it's more like she FLEW there, is supposed to be the "proof" that his taijutsu is very competent if not more.

Itachi not keeping up with Lee...that's a funny statement.
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Old 2006-11-05, 14:23   Link #91
Sabaku Kyu
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Originally Posted by 0TaKu0
True, but I donít think its THAT obvious, we already know how to attain the Mangekyo Sharingan, and to be honest it doesnít sound too hard, as cold as that sounds. What I mean is, any weak ass Uchiha who is seeking more power, if they could bring them self to kill their best friend (who might be some one really weak, or not even a Ninja) Can attain the Mangekyo Sharingan.

Donít get me wrong, by all means Iím not saying just because they have the Sharingan or even the Mangekyo Sharingan they can do what Itachi does with his. By all means hell no, Itachi is no doubt special, but to go as far as to say some one as far as Itachi in the Uchiha clan is extremely rare. That might be the case cause everyone is freaking dead, they were not given a chance.

What about Madra, what about the Future Sasuke, what about Future Uchiha that would have lived if it was not for Itachi, and obviously someone had to find out about Tsukuyomi, or Amaterasu, or Mangekyo Sharingan because there are records of how to attain them in the Uchiha history. Yea as far as it goes, In Narutoverse right now, because the whole Uchiha clan is dead, and Sasuke is still too weak and cant kill his best friend, not everyone can take it as far as Itachi because they never got the chance to.
I don't think the requirements for getting MS are as simple as killing your best friend and BAM! instant Mangekyou. People take Itachi's words too literally. It's not like a rookie Uchiha such as Obito could've killed Kakashi and obtained the Mangekyou. Instead, I believe the "killing your best friend" Itachi was talking about was in reference to overcoming a mental barrier. For Itachi, killing his best friend who was like a brother meant that he was finally able to break all sentimental ties to his clan and village, a barrier which he may have felt was holding him back. Recognizing that Sasuke would probably face a similar barrier, he felt that Sasuke would need to do the same thing to achieve MS. Of course, being a man of few words Itachi simply told him to kill his friend rather than explain the details behind it (at his age, Sasuke wouldn't have understood anyway). Also the barrier that must be overcome probably varies from user to user. Kakashi certainly didn't murder his best friend to obtain Mangekyou Sharingan (though he might feel responsible for his death in a way). Whatever method he used hasn't been explained yet, but obtaining MS seems to be about an individual unlocking their potential, not making a sacrifice.

Itachi's Mangekyou IS extremely rare though. There are no more Uchiha alive now, but there was no one in the clan at the time of the massacre who could use MS, that's for sure or they could've stood against Itachi. The MS ability seems to normally be at most a once-or-twice per generation phenomenon. We don't know what generation of ninja Uchiha Madara is from and we don't know if Sasuke will ever be able to obtain MS. Kakashi has it, but of course, he is also a genius similar to Itachi. I'm not sure about there being prior users of Tsukuyomi and Amatersu either. When Kakashi obtained MS, he was given a totally different ability. It might be that MS grants unique techniques to each person who obtains it.
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Old 2006-11-05, 14:39   Link #92
Suna no tate
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Interesting. I would like to say that kakashi seemed to know and expect Itachi to have and to use the MS. Also it seemed like Itachi's father knew about it. So I wonder about how well guarded a secret it was. But I agree with you concerning that mental barrier. Killing your friend is merely a symbol or is reflective of the change needed within the individual. In addition, Kakashi has developed it without having to kill anyone. However, the question to ask is will we see Sasuke show it anytime soon? He's already tried to kill naruto 2x and has an itachi type mentality... I've also been wondering if Kakashi's new MS eye gives him a defense against the Itachis MS tsukuyomi. Itachi kept referencing that only by gaining such an eye can you stand against it. It'll be interesting to see how that develops.
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Old 2006-11-05, 15:10   Link #93
Sabaku Kyu
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Interesting. I would like to say that kakashi seemed to know and expect Itachi to have and to use the MS. Also it seemed like Itachi's father knew about it. So I wonder about how well guarded a secret it was. But I agree with you concerning that mental barrier. Killing your friend is merely a symbol or is reflective of the change needed within the individual. In addition, Kakashi has developed it without having to kill anyone. However, the question to ask is will we see Sasuke show it anytime soon? He's already tried to kill naruto 2x and has an itachi type mentality... I've also been wondering if Kakashi's new MS eye gives him a defense against the Itachis MS tsukuyomi. Itachi kept referencing that only by gaining such an eye can you stand against it. It'll be interesting to see how that develops.
Well, wouldn't exactly Itachi's father knew about MS. It seemed more like he knew of it. As the head of the Uchiha police force, he might've had more information about it, but it didn't seem like he really wanted to discuss it with Sasuke. So general knowledge about the existence of MS seems common, how to obtain it was probably a guarded secret. It's anyone's guess to when, how and if Sasuke will get MS. He won't get it by killing Naruto obviously. But the MS might manifest itself while he's fighting Naruto (like his 3rd tomoe), or he might get it by allowing Oro to take his body, or by killing someone else like Kakashi or even Orochimaru (but I think the last option is unlikely)

Kakashi's new MS will probably give him protection Tsukuyomi. He seemed pretty confident when he faced the Itachi subsitute that he wouldn't be able to be caught. The substitute couldn't use MS though so it's not known for sure. What I want to know is if Kakashi will be somehow immune to Amatersu, and Itachi immune to Kakashi's space-warp. I would enjoy that scenario as it would force them to have a real fight instead of just using their MS abilities
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Old 2006-11-05, 16:07   Link #94
0TaKu0
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
Well, wouldn't exactly Itachi's father knew about MS. It seemed more like he knew of it. As the head of the Uchiha police force, he might've had more information about it, but it didn't seem like he really wanted to discuss it with Sasuke. So general knowledge about the existence of MS seems common, how to obtain it was probably a guarded secret. It's anyone's guess to when, how and if Sasuke will get MS. He won't get it by killing Naruto obviously. But the MS might manifest itself while he's fighting Naruto (like his 3rd tomoe), or he might get it by allowing Oro to take his body, or by killing someone else like Kakashi or even Orochimaru (but I think the last option is unlikely)

Kakashi's new MS will probably give him protection Tsukuyomi. He seemed pretty confident when he faced the Itachi subsitute that he wouldn't be able to be caught. The substitute couldn't use MS though so it's not known for sure. What I want to know is if Kakashi will be somehow immune to Amatersu, and Itachi immune to Kakashi's space-warp. I would enjoy that scenario as it would force them to have a real fight instead of just using their MS abilities
Hmm, good stuff, although these are the things that came to mind, I did not think about looking at the requirement to attain the MS as a symbolic statement. But, that sounds just about right, it would also explain how Kakashi was able to attain his own version of the MS.

I got to admit though, although Kakashi's MS is totally sick, I mean being able to open warp space / dimensional rift's and sending things some where else, using it on a part of Deidara's arm and severing it, is totally sick.

The question that comes to mind however is, the same thing that I posted in the Gai/kakashi battle strategies (possible spoiler) thread.

The first encounter with Itachi before time skip:

Itachi gets ready to use the Tsukuyomi, Kakashi tells the others to shut their eyes, also shuts his own and opens his Sharingan eye.

Kakashi: Most likely only another Sharingan user could counter this technique..
Kakashi: Listen carefully do not open your eyes, if you do then it would be devastating

Itachi: That is correct as long as one has the Sharingan.
Itachi: Some resistance could be made to this Mangekyo Sharingan.
Itachi: However, this is a special eye jutsu.
Itachi: Genjutsu "Tsukuyomi" ....
Itachi: Only another Sharingan user with the same blood flowing in me could possibly defeat me!

Kasashi: Sasuke . . . .

Does this not mean that Kakashi cant counter Itachi's MS, because he is not of the Uchiha bloodline?

I mean, I could be wrong and it could also mean that Itachi at that time though Kakashi in no way in hell would attain the MS or a version of his own. Thinking that maybe Sasuke some day can, causing Itachi to state something like "same blood flowing in me". I say that because Itachi seemed damn surprised when he figured out that Kakashi had developed his own MS.

So what do you think?
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Old 2006-11-06, 00:54   Link #95
Suna no tate
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That Sasuke! Always screwing up!
By the way (this is a little off topic), does anyone know the names of the 4th hokages teammates?
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Old 2006-11-06, 01:41   Link #96
0TaKu0
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That Sasuke! Always screwing up!
By the way (this is a little off topic), does anyone know the names of the 4th hokages teammates?
I think your talking about his team mates.. when he was a Kid and Jiraiya was his teacher.. the identities of the other two are unknown

That kid on the left looks like he could be the AL =-=; based on my photoshop image, just let that hair grow, give him a goatee, put some piercing’s on the sides of his nose and open his eyes! bam! (LOL)
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Old 2006-11-06, 13:10   Link #97
Suna no tate
Akatsuki Bart is Tobi
 
 
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Thanks for the answer.
I would like to say that there seems to be some serious confusion as to power levels. Itachi has given statements that show he even respects and possibly fears Jiraiya and has given statements as to how highly he regards the legendary 3. The oro one of the three has given statements that itachi is more powerful than him. And Jiraiya in one translation said something like "he was lucky he could just chase off Itachi". Anyway, the point is everyone seems to have a crude measuring stick of each other and nobody seems to really know how powerful the other is. Is itachi stronger than oro? Oro thinks so but itachi probably doesn't. Is Jiraiya stronger than itachi? itachi thinks so, and jiraiya might disagree. And so on. A particularly good example of confusion is where Orochimaru says to kabuto that he is only as strong as kakashi is right now. Yet kabuto easily kills 4 anbu members (though it is possible he used some cheap trick like gas or poison. there was no blood afterall). Then when kakashi meets kabuto, he says Kabuto is stronger then him. So who is right? Seems everyone just doesn't really know and we have to judge by their actions in battle.

If you ask me, kakashi fought itachi evenly in the battle. he even had the presence of mind to rescue the liability that is kurenai (and asuma).
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Old 2006-11-06, 13:34   Link #98
0TaKu0
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Thanks for the answer.
I would like to say that there seems to be some serious confusion as to power levels. Itachi has given statements that show he even respects and possibly fears Jiraiya and has given statements as to how highly he regards the legendary 3. The oro one of the three has given statements that itachi is more powerful than him. And Jiraiya in one translation said something like "he was lucky he could just chase off Itachi". Anyway, the point is everyone seems to have a crude measuring stick of each other and nobody seems to really know how powerful the other is. Is itachi stronger than oro? Oro thinks so but itachi probably doesn't. Is Jiraiya stronger than itachi? itachi thinks so, and jiraiya might disagree. And so on. A particularly good example of confusion is where Orochimaru says to kabuto that he is only as strong as kakashi is right now. Yet kabuto easily kills 4 anbu members (though it is possible he used some cheap trick like gas or poison. there was no blood afterall). Then when kakashi meets kabuto, he says Kabuto is stronger then him. So who is right? Seems everyone just doesn't really know and we have to judge by their actions in battle.
Good comment, this seems to be quite the case. As the first time Jiraiya comes in contact with Itachi and Kisame "You two will die here by my hands" He says it so confidently and seriously, like there is no doubt its already over for them the future has been foreseen. But then as you stated later on you see him taking his statement back by saying something like "He was lucky he could just chase off Itachi".

Funny thing, because this seems to be a common thing with the characters of Narutoverse, not sure what this means but it could be just something done to make everything more interesting and let fans like us have discussions like this.
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Old 2006-11-06, 16:49   Link #99
Mr. Johnny 5
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This is a topic which can be discussed till the answers really come but what i think:

Orochimaru simply couldnt defeat Itachi but it doesnt mean that Itachi is alot stronger or he might've witnessed Itachi's power and thought....hell no (losing confidence)

Jiraiya has the greatest reputation of the 3.. but it is also known that: Kage lvl fighters (3rd, Sannin, more?) are better off when they fight alone.

This is because of the damage they cause (it's massive and the radius is very wide) on the other hand Itachi seems excellent for both team and one-on-one. His jutsu's seem small radius, heavy damage.

Which could mean...Jiraiya said i barely got them off you because if he used other jutsu's both Sasuke & Naruto would've died aswell...especially with a guy like Naruto who always interferes in battles...in which he actually cant compete in.

But even though Kabuto is as skilled as Kakashi....Kakashi probably will win because of the Sharingan. Kabuto didnt want to fight him cause he knew Kakashi would copy his moves.
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Old 2006-11-06, 17:05   Link #100
Suna no tate
Akatsuki Bart is Tobi
 
 
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We can't fully discuss that Kabuto. He is such a mysterious character and even Orochimaru has difficulty trusting him. Anyway, personally to me Kabuto has the coolest moment in the whole anime linked to him. Remember when he escapes through the window and pulls of the ANBU mask? Classic! Anyone who pulls that off can't be a weakling in my eyes.
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