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Old 2007-04-02, 14:49   Link #241
Mirrinus
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Or it could be, ya know, that people are trying to take the series a bit too seriously. Recall, we've had combat waitresses, giant crickets, Kyon in a cat costume, and Haruhi taking over an RPG world. I'm really interested more for the ride than the actual destination. I don't really care if the total displacement is zero so long as the velocity and acceleration were enjoyable.
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Old 2007-04-02, 17:49   Link #242
wtflux
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"Or it could be, ya know, that people are trying to take the series a bit too seriously..."

as if it's wrong to expect a plot to end someday? haruhi isn't school rumble.

i'm perfectly fine with a 'ride,' as i stated in the last post. azumanga daioh is a well done 'for the ride' series; it has no plot, it's all about the characters. haruhi is not a 'ride' series, it has a plot and continuously focuses on it without ever actually doing anything with it, which naturally detracts from the experience if you care at all about the plot.

i am simply frustrated with what i perceive to be relatively good writing that was spoiled by the writer's lack of desire to end things. if the author provides something to take seriously(there are two main plot lines), it's only natural to expect it to go somewhere. haruhi for sure has its juvenile points, as you said, but that doesn't excuse tanigawa from a literary standpoint(this is a novel, not azumanga daioh, right?), because he focuses too much on the main plot. please don't look down on people just because you're not looking for the same thing they are, especially if both are there(in this case, 'both' would be humor/adventure(i guess?) and plot line).

trust me, i recognize haruhi's good points as much as you do; i'm still reading it, right? it's just that i enjoy talking about and analyzing stories. hope i'm not begrudged that.

Last edited by wtflux; 2007-04-02 at 18:15.
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Old 2007-04-02, 18:10   Link #243
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Regarding first pic, middle... That is some serious hair...
Mushroom hair!!
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Old 2007-04-02, 18:31   Link #244
Mirrinus
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I just can't seem to agree with your statement that Haruhi is not a "ride" series. Considering how just about every other novel volume is composed of short stories that barely push the plot but do flesh out the characters, I'm more inclined to see this as a character-driven series. Many of the events going on can be attributed directly to the actions of the SOS Brigade members; it was only in a few of the later stories that things actually started happening as a result of someone foreign to the group. Perhaps the central story plot hasn't moved much, but you can't deny the fact that each of the characters have undergone noticable development. It appears to me that the focus is on the characters, not the epic state of reality or something. Come on, even volume 4 was really nothing more than immense character development. Many of the stories could have worked as stand-alones. I'm curious to know, what exactly do you think is the central plot that must be resolved right away?

Actually, regarding your claim that this is a novel series, I think it's really only true up to a point. Oftentimes, it feels more like a collection of short stories somewhat linked to one another. Both can be excellent, but it's pretty tricky to try to pidgeonhole a series like this into only one standard by which to judge it. Haruhi really doesn't resemble many other novel series that I've read. Then again, I'm not surprised to see it subverting the genre or something...

I'm not really anxious for anything to end just yet; you on the other hand seem to demand that something gets resolved in this volume. Why is that? It's not like there's a limit placed on how many volumes this series is allowed to run for. Last time I checked, they're only at the beginning of their second year of high school. Earlier, you listed 5 different plot threads that could be used to advance the plot. For each of them, I'm personally having trouble seeing either 1) how they can advance the plot, or 2) why they're necessary to advance the plot.

I don't profess to know what Tanigawa is planning, or where this story will go. But to me, it still seems rather presumptuous to be making such statements when the work itself is definitely still incomplete anyway. This isn't Harry Potter, where we all knew that 7 years will be covered in 7 volumes. There's nothing wrong with expecting a plot to end, but I'm confused as to why you feel you must set a deadline for it. I'm not trying to look down on you right now; I just want to understand your logic, and offer my comments as to why my thinking is different.

Finally, I don't really think having two separate story endings means it has to be taken seriously. I know I sure didn't take that live action CLUE movie seriously, lol. It sounds quite like something bizarre that I'd expect from Miss Suzumiya. From the Author's Notes of the earlier novels, it sounds like Tanigawa is having fun trying out different styles. I'd personally withhold judgment until I see the whole thing for myself. I've learned that going by second-hand information is a terrible way to judge anything.

Last edited by Mirrinus; 2007-04-02 at 18:43.
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Old 2007-04-02, 18:34   Link #245
wtflux
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were there any other colored illustrations?

there are no vol9 spoilers in this post.

get ready for a whale of a post =/ maybe i shouldn't post this. anyways, it's so big that i decided to split up the parts that were taking up the most space so as not to create an eyesore. heh, i've probably written a lot of things i don't even believe.

"I'm not trying to look down on you right now"

well, your first sentence struck of condescension(the part i quoted in my previous post), when really thinking about things like this is just a way of having fun for me--as contradictory as it may seem, since i'm criticizing his writing. i don't take any offense now, though. anyways...

as a disclaimer, while you're reading this please try to remember that i am judging Haruhi as a series of novels, not as a collection of short stories. if I was judging tanigawa's writing as a collection of short stories, and not from an overall view(although they are written as short stories, since they all clearly connect together this is not inappropriate), things would be very different.

some of your questions can be answered by reading the long post where i posted a spoiler of the last page of vol9.

clarification of plot and the issue i take with tani's writing
Spoiler:

various points on the haruhi plot
Spoiler:


my ideas on plot and why i am disappointed with haruhi's plot dragging out
Spoiler:



that pretty much sums up the reasons for my dissatisfaction, i believe. i hope i'm not repeating myself too much here. don't get me wrong(after all that i hope you dont =p), i don't desire a swift ending to everything because it's dragged on too long. that wouldn't be good. if he were to start a chain of events that ended up ending things, even if it took 2-3 novels, that would be fine. but the long space of nothingness would leave a sour taste in my mouth in terms of plot analysis(although the side/short/character specific stories are nice). the novel name "the shock of suzumiya haruhi" has me hoping.

Last edited by wtflux; 2007-04-02 at 20:11.
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Old 2007-04-02, 21:59   Link #246
quigonkenny
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Originally Posted by wtflux View Post
were there any other colored illustrations?

there are no vol9 spoilers in this post.

get ready for a whale of a post =/ maybe i shouldn't post this. anyways, it's so big that i decided to split up the parts that were taking up the most space so as not to create an eyesore. heh, i've probably written a lot of things i don't even believe.

"I'm not trying to look down on you right now"

well, your first sentence struck of condescension(the part i quoted in my previous post), when really thinking about things like this is just a way of having fun for me--as contradictory as it may seem, since i'm criticizing his writing. i don't take any offense now, though. anyways...

as a disclaimer, while you're reading this please try to remember that i am judging Haruhi as a series of novels, not as a collection of short stories. if I was judging tanigawa's writing as a collection of short stories, and not from an overall view(although they are written as short stories, since they all clearly connect together this is not inappropriate), things would be very different.

some of your questions can be answered by reading the long post where i posted a spoiler of the last page of vol9.

clarification of plot and the issue i take with tani's writing
Spoiler:

various points on the haruhi plot
Spoiler:


my ideas on plot and why i am disappointed with haruhi's plot dragging out
Spoiler:



that pretty much sums up the reasons for my dissatisfaction, i believe. i hope i'm not repeating myself too much here. don't get me wrong(after all that i hope you dont =p), i don't desire a swift ending to everything because it's dragged on too long. that wouldn't be good. if he were to start a chain of events that ended up ending things, even if it took 2-3 novels, that would be fine. but the long space of nothingness would leave a sour taste in my mouth in terms of plot analysis(although the side/short/character specific stories are nice). the novel name "the shock of suzumiya haruhi" has me hoping.
You go on about how you don't like the lack of development in what you consider "the main plot," but you ignore what I (and I'm sure others) feel are the best things about the Haruhi series, and that's the development of the peripheral characters and the fleshing out of the Haruhiverse. Why else would volumes 4 and 7 be so popular when there was literally no development between Kyon and Haruhi, and little exploration into Haruhi's powers (besides their "borrowing" in volume 4)? While those things may not necessarily make up "the main plot," there's no denying they're central to the main storyline, and also very enjoyable.

And from what I've heard of volume 9, we're getting even more of that kind of development, which I for one am happy about. See, the great thing about centering the story around the development of the characters and the universe, instead of the plot, is that in this case the resolution of the plot will mean the resolution of the series, but you can develop the characters and the universe until the cows come home. I mean, after you hook up Kyon and Haruhi, and after she finds out about her powers (or we find out that Kyon's the one with the powers, if you subscribe to that school of thought), then that's it. I mean, what could be next after that?
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Old 2007-04-02, 22:30   Link #247
HolyCow
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I for one wouldn't like to see Tanigawa base EVERYTHING about the main plot. Going by your logic, we would have gotten a whole plot based around Haruhi's powers, like for example:

1- MELANCHOLY volume
2- Kyon tries to find out about Haruhi's powers blablabla
3- Haruhi becomes semi-aware of her powers blablabla
4- Haruhi realises Kyon is John Smith blablabla
5- <Insert Giant Plot Twist here>

and so on.

My point is, if everything were to be based upon Haruhi's powers, I'm sure that many would find the series too mundane and stereotypical, or at the very least, I'm sure I would. The main thing I like about Haruhi is it's general craziness, a theme that has been clear throughout all 8 novels. From MELANCHOLY's setup of the SOS Briagde to DISAPPEARANCE's 'omgwtf?' plot to INTRIGUES's weird orders, everything that happened was general wackiness. I would rather see a novel series that actually bothers to develope its side characters (Nagato in DISAPPEARANCE, Asahina-san in INTRIGUES, and other misc short stories i/e: Nagato in Charmed and Shadow) than focus purely on a single plotline.

Right now it may seem that Tanigawa hasn't explained much about HAruhi's powers, but who knows, maybe this alternate SOS Brigade thing will play a role in that? I can imagine Sasaki explaining to Kyon how she obtained her powers, and how similar her powers are to Haruhi, or something of teh sort. INTRIGUES didn't seem important at first, but that was until DISSOCIATION came along and we realized that the whole point of INTRIGUES was to introduce us to the 'other SOS', like the Sneering Bastard for example. Snow Mountain Syndrome seemed nothing more than an adventure flick to go along with Lone Island Syndrome, until INTRIGUES explained that the MSCE were behind it all and thus introducing a new faction into play. I for one love these kind of 'foreshadowings' and so far Haruhi has yet to disappoint me. Who knows, maybe we'll be hearing more about the Titanium-Caessium Rod (it was briefly mentioned in Shadow after all) or the Data lifeforms mentioned in Shadow.

I believe that Tanigawa knows what he's doing. He probably won't just forget about these elements he introduced, as evident with the various reusing of characters (the bespectacled kid from Melancholy of Mikuru was reused in INTRIGUES, Kimidori was reused waaaay later in Editor) so far. I'm confident that he'll be able to tie up all these loose ends to the main plot (of which we're not really sure what it is, actually) while at the same time maintaining the same sense of quirkiness the Haruhi novels have had over the span of 8 volumes so far.
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Old 2007-04-03, 04:02   Link #248
wtflux
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you might be misunderstanding me, and you're all taking my comments a little out of proportion. i acknowledged there in several places that the side stories are a good part of the series, and the character interactions are half the reason i read the series. however, without plot dynamism, that doesn't make it a good -story-: it makes it a good collection of stories with good characters. as i said, i was attempting to analyze his writing based on the story as a novel, which needs both plot and character dynamism--one of the aspects of the series that seriously sours the rest of it for me.

if you didn't notice, i tried to split the series into two things(which you have also followed): side stories, and the primary conflicts. i am entirely pleased with the side stories. it would be fine if that was all there were. but it's not. tanigawa created an interesting, seemingly forward-moving plot in volume 1--and it hasn't moved(much) since. THAT IS ALL I TAKE ISSUE WITH. but it's a souring point of his writing for me. even in the anime, it seemed like the plot may go somewhere(with either of the endings, it seemed like it CONFIRMED "this relationship is -going somewhere-").

holycow, a plot focused around haruhi's powers(that's what haruhi is focused around, along with haruhixkyon; notice haruhixkyon and this conflict drive the subplots, not the other way around, unfortunately) doesn't mean there can't be subplots tied to the main plot. currently there are just subplots and none of them have actually been tied to the main plot(yukixkyon was just excused away by kyon instead of fueling a change in haruhi and kyon's relationship, for example). as you said, if he does tie them all up in the end, i will be very happy--but i think it will turn out that it would be better if he had been doing it all along, keeping things fresh.


i am not trashing haruhi overall. i've said it and i'll say it again, i read it and enjoy most parts of it. i am only criticizing one part of the series which prevents the it from being really great like the first novel, and that may be why it seems like i'm 'ignoring' everything else.

tanigawa can write as many short stories interspersed in the novel as he desires. i don't care, i like reading them, and they do good things for the character dynamics. but that isn't an excuse to cause the plot dynamism to stagnate(although the short stories have nice plots themselves, this often doesn't actually contribute to the main vein of the story--he is clearly a capable writer, but as i've said before i think something gets in his way of moving the series toward a conclusion at all).

anyways, im a little surprised you issue is taken with me saying the development of the primary plot is subpar, while the development of other things is great, which means that while there are interesting subplots and the main characters are dynamic, the plot is not. this doesn't mean END IT NOW. this doesn't mean he should delete the side stories. it means he should have done something with the plot; not necessarily end it, just develop it/flesh it out along the way. although i would think he could have had some conclusions after 9 novels =p that's all i mean.

but i think i will leave things at that, because this is taking up way too much of my time. i'm going to try to stick to translation spoilers =(

P.S: a conclusion of the plot lines doesn't mean an end to haruhi. i'm sure most of you would agree, based on your arguments, that tanigawa could still make haruhi a fun series to read even if things behind haruhi's powers were revealed and kyon+haruhi became official(or was stamped out). i'm sure you can imagine how Disappearance could have happened even if those things had been cleared up, for example.

Last edited by wtflux; 2007-04-03 at 04:51.
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Old 2007-04-03, 05:33   Link #249
Ascaloth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wtflux View Post
*blah blah blah blah blah*
So, in short, you just don't like the fact that Tanigawa's pacing of the main plot is too slow for you, isn't it? And that is why you think it isn't such a great story as a whole, while the rest of us have absolutely no problems with the pacing whatsoever, is that right?

Keep
It
Simple,
Stupid.

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Old 2007-04-03, 06:46   Link #250
Sheba
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How many pages there are in a light novel?
It is not like I have to expect something of the same caliber as "War and Peace" in my Haruhi.
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Old 2007-04-03, 06:58   Link #251
wtflux
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yeah, ascaloth, i have a lot of trouble with doing that(both keeping it simple and not being stupid). although, i wouldn't call it a just a personal gripe with the story rather than an objective analysis of the situation(some people simply don't care because they aren't reading the story for the element i'm describing, even though it exists prominently, or maybe their standards are lower than mine). if you don't have a problem with the pacing it's probably because you don't care about it, since the pacing has been almost nonexistent since volume 1.

considering the story's audience, comparing it to great writing is unfair, so i suppose it fits its niche. i just enjoy doing it because it sort of helps me define what a quality story is, and i think it'd be nice if tanigawa would step it up. it i'm not really expecting it, but better quality can never hurt, right?

anyways, i'm going to translate a small portion(2-3 pages) of a dialogue between koizumi and kyon, talking about haruhi, sasaki, and closed spaces. i'll probably edit it into here.
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Old 2007-04-03, 07:05   Link #252
Ascaloth
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Originally Posted by wtflux View Post
yeah, ascaloth, i have a lot of trouble with doing that(both keeping it simple and not being stupid). although, i wouldn't call it a just a personal gripe with the story rather than an objective analysis of the situation(some people simply don't care because they aren't reading the story for the element i'm describing, even though it exists prominently, or maybe their standards are lower than mine).

considering the story's audience, comparing it to great writing is unfair, so i suppose it fits its niche. i just enjoy doing it because it sort of helps me define what a quality story is, and i think it'd be nice if tanigawa would step it up. it i'm not really expecting it, but better quality can never hurt, right?

anyways, i'm going to translate a small portion(2-3 pages) of a dialogue between koizumi and kyon, talking about haruhi, sasaki, and closed spaces. i'll probably edit it into here.
...now you're the one who's looking down on other people. Not only that, you're imposing arbitary standards on what makes a "good" story. And lastly, you're taking on a "I'm-right-because-I-say-so" attitude.

To quote Jason Miao from AoMM, "Bad times. Bad times."

Jeez. Can we just cut everything here before it blows up? Just state this is your personal opinion, and leave it at that.
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Old 2007-04-03, 07:05   Link #253
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Just to interrupt the discussion...

Do any of you think perhaps the contents of book 9 might not be able to be fully appreciated until it is read along with book 10?

After all, I don't think book 9 ended on a cliff-hanger for the fun of it; The author must have been unable to fit both books into one volume, and that's why book 10 is to be release very soon afterwards.

It's just an idea, of course.
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Old 2007-04-03, 07:24   Link #254
wtflux
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"Jeez. Can we just cut everything here before it blows up? Just state this is your personal opinion, and leave it at that."

I'll admit that I can't get across to you what I am thinking, so it doesn't matter either way(it's my fault, not yours). Even if we can't come to a mutual understanding, I'd rather leave it at that than complicate things further through miscommunication(not to mention clogging up the board). I have an unfortunate talent for turning a very simple issue into a complex one.

The only thing I'd like to add is that I didn't mean 'people may have lower standards' as an insult to anyone; all I meant is that I'm hard to satisfy, it's just a character difference as far as I'm concerned. Apologies if it came out wrong.

just to try to ensure this doesn't continue, this is what i have so far:

EDIT: Volume 9 excerpt, pages 80-82. Just added more at 8:34 board time, and may add more later, but this is what I wanted to get done for now(no more coming soon):
Spoiler:


and yes, since both of volume 9's endings end on a cliffhanger i -hope- volume 10 will build on what volume 9 did. after all, i don't think tanigawa has ever ended a volume on a cliffhanger before.

EDIT: added the substance of text that i actually WANTED to translate at 8:34, no more coming soon. koizumi's reaction to kyon's question at the end is GREAT =) it's like he is so shocked that kyon could be so ignorant. probably pisses him off to no end if he actually has feelings for haruhi like he does in the alternate universe--but oh, i forgot, he's gay, right?

hmm, wonder if he is homosexual in the real world and yuki made him straight in the other world in an attempt to get haruhi away from kyon =p

Last edited by wtflux; 2007-04-03 at 08:44.
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Old 2007-04-03, 09:05   Link #255
PastPrime
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i can't really answer those, as I'm not sure of them yet.

i can give some roundabout answers though:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
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Old 2007-04-03, 10:50   Link #256
Ascaloth
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Spoiler:
Spoiler:
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Old 2007-04-03, 11:13   Link #257
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uh ... another questions.
Spoiler:
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Old 2007-04-03, 13:54   Link #258
quigonkenny
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ascaloth View Post
Spoiler:
Spoiler for Kyon talk with a bit of Vol 9:

Quote:
Originally Posted by wtflux View Post
. . .

I'll admit that I can't get across to you what I am thinking, so it doesn't matter either way(it's my fault, not yours). Even if we can't come to a mutual understanding, I'd rather leave it at that than complicate things further through miscommunication(not to mention clogging up the board). I have an unfortunate talent for turning a very simple issue into a complex one.

. . .

EDIT: added the substance of text that i actually WANTED to translate at 8:34, no more coming soon. koizumi's reaction to kyon's question at the end is GREAT =) it's like he is so shocked that kyon could be so ignorant. probably pisses him off to no end if he actually has feelings for haruhi like he does in the alternate universe--but oh, i forgot, he's gay, right?

hmm, wonder if he is homosexual in the real world and yuki made him straight in the other world in an attempt to get haruhi away from kyon =p
It's pretty obvious what you are thinking, as you were able to get that across with your first post. You would like the series to, if not focus more on it, at least give some development to the "Haruhi x Kyon" and the "Haruhi's Powers" threads of the story, which I freely admit hasn't been advanced much, if at all, since the beginning of the series. The problem is that most of us either don't agree (maybe we have a broader definition of what pertains to "Haruhi's Powers," for example, or are satisfied with the slow pace to their romance) or don't care (I, for one, prefer the intricate worldbuilding the author has done to the possibility of it all degenerating into a generic love story). If anyone does agree, please come forth, as I can't be wrong about my opinions, but I'll freely admit if I've assumed incorrectly about the general opinions of the audience.

And as for Itsuki being gay, that's really more a fan joke than anything. He's certainly a close talker, and the idea that he might be bi is plausible (Snow Mountain Syndrome), but it's been at least hinted at a few times that he's attracted to Haruhi in this dimension as well (although maybe dere-Yuki enhanced that a bit in the dere-verse for the reason you give) and he has remarked on Mikuru's and Haruhi's attractiveness a number of times.
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Old 2007-04-03, 15:07   Link #259
Mirrinus
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On a completely unrelated note, I'm kinda surprised at just how many people on this forum read Jason's AoMM blog...
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Old 2007-04-03, 16:40   Link #260
wtflux
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kyon being some sort of key to power doesn't seem out of the question.

after all, at the very beginning of the series, after he first talked to haruhi, he said "this would be the trigger," right? although presumably, the real trigger was three years ago, we can't know what he really meant, or even if he considers the events three years ago to have happened 'before' that, if you know what i mean(although im sure he does).


i have a different theory though. the symbol haruhi had painted on the ground seems like it can be read by the IDSE and other information-related entities. it seems probable to me that what gives haruhi her powers is actually a special information-virus-thing like the one encountered in Wandering Shadow, which may have seen the symbol on Earth, answered her call by coming and attaching itself to whatever wrote it(or maybe it was simply drawn to the sign). This 'spirit' would be the source of her power. This could also explain the fact that her powers can be transferred. This may be a pretty wild theory to some of you, but hey, it explains the connection between the symbol and the fact that her powers are transferable and I don't see anything that prohibits its truth. The fact that Yuki took her powers also gives support to the theory, I think, since she's demonstrated in Wandering Shadow that she can transfer the 'spirits' from one thing to another.

vol9 ending spoiler
Spoiler:
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