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Old 2010-03-07, 23:02   Link #3081
Sute443
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Originally Posted by quigonkenny View Post
That's hardly a special power. I'm making my own history. We all are. Only thing Fujiwara has on that is his knowledge, and if his future is invalidated, he won't even have that.
I just realized something: If Fujiwara's future is invalidated, Mikuru's future would be invalidated as well, seeing as they are from the same future (but perhaps different points along the line). Therefore, unless Mikuru is depowered, Fujiwara will not be depowered.

Please, no one try to support the idiotic idea that they could be from different timelines. Time travel in Haruhi has been shown not to work like that. And in case anyone thinks Volume 9 opens up a way for Mikuru and Fujiwara to be from different futures, then I'll point out that both of them have made appearances before the split occurred. If they did each come from one of those two paths, and one of the paths got erased, then where did the version that showed up before the split come from?
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Old 2010-03-07, 23:05   Link #3082
keri
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Originally Posted by Sute443 View Post
I just realized something: If Fujiwara's future is invalidated, Mikuru's future would be invalidated as well, seeing as they are from the same future (but perhaps different points along the line). Therefore, unless Mikuru is depowered, Fujiwara will not be depowered.
He could lose his TPDD.

The TPDD which is external to him, though it is a part of him. And Mikuru. If it is permanently lost, then he can no longer time travel, like Mikuru feared back in E8 and whenever else it got disabled on her.
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Old 2010-03-07, 23:14   Link #3083
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While it did get stolen in Bamboo Leaf Rhapsody, I think the problem in E8 wasn't that she didn't have a TPDD, it was that there was no future to return to at that point.
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Old 2010-03-07, 23:33   Link #3084
keri
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Originally Posted by Grahf616 View Post
While it did get stolen in Bamboo Leaf Rhapsody, I think the problem in E8 wasn't that she didn't have a TPDD, it was that there was no future to return to at that point.
Yeah, I misworded that. The important point is that she couldn't use the TPDD, even if it was still embedded in her cerebral cortex or lodged behind her eyeball or wherever it is. Whether she couldn't use it because of the lack of future or because it's disabled doesn't matter - the thing is that it couldn't be used, and she was effectively depowered (temporarily). Which is what would happen if Fujiwara somehow lost his TPDD or if it were permanently disabled.
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Old 2010-03-07, 23:49   Link #3085
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Ah, yes, that's very true.

The time travel methodology has been kept very mysterious. I do think that a lot of the theories that hold that the technology is inside Mikuru are correct, but it could also be something with internal and external hardware, and the thing stolen in Bamboo Leaf was simply the external device.

Come to think of it, they never did explain how she got it back either. I guess it's assumed that she could contact the future back from her residence in the present, or some other method of at least letting the future know she's stuck. Of course, why she couldn't use it in the past in the first place seems to imply that it's yet another external device.

I suppose maybe these questions might get answered eventually. Assuming that there are more novels after the 10th one. It will be awhile before we get to see that one anyways too, what with the licensing stopping the previous translation teams from having a crack at it whenever it gets released (although that's not to say that no one will try.)
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Old 2010-03-07, 23:55   Link #3086
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sute443 View Post
Please, no one try to support the idiotic idea that they could be from different timelines. Time travel in Haruhi has been shown not to work like that. And in case anyone thinks Volume 9 opens up a way for Mikuru and Fujiwara to be from different futures, then I'll point out that both of them have made appearances before the split occurred. If they did each come from one of those two paths, and one of the paths got erased, then where did the version that showed up before the split come from?
You must mean "idiotic" as is "possible due to the powers of that 'idiot' Haruhi", right? We've already seen that time travel can work that way. They're showing a movie of the book in which it occurred.

Nice job trying to kill discussion by pre-emptively (not to mention condescendingly) labelling anyone who disagrees with you as an idiot. On this forum we have discussions, not proclamations.
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Old 2010-03-08, 00:15   Link #3087
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Originally Posted by quigonkenny View Post
You must mean "idiotic" as is "possible due to the powers of that 'idiot' Haruhi", right? We've already seen that time travel can work that way. They're showing a movie of the book in which it occurred.
It can be interpreted that way, but there is of course a more sensible (but less pleasant) way that the events of those three days make sense.

At the start point, Yuki rewrites reality with Haruhi's powers. Kyon (from December) intervenes, and gets wounded. Kyon (from January) intervenes, and changes Yuki back to normal. Kyon (January) is taken back to his present. Reality is still altered at this point, and remains altered for three days. Kyon (December) is healed and transported to the hospital, where he wakes up after Yuki changes reality back to normal. During those three days, the events of Disappearance play out with Yuki knowing what will happen and unable to change anything. With this, the mechanics of time travel as portrayed in Haruhi maintain their consistency.
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Old 2010-03-08, 00:17   Link #3088
keri
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Originally Posted by quigonkenny View Post
You must mean "idiotic" as is "possible due to the powers of that 'idiot' Haruhi", right? We've already seen that time travel can work that way. They're showing a movie of the book in which it occurred.

Nice job trying to kill discussion by pre-emptively labelling anyone who disagrees with you as an idiot. On this forum we have discussions, not proclamations.
Augh, my brain hurts. I need Koizumi to draw some charts for me.

I love time travel stories. They're my favorite ♥ But damn does Tanigawa make it complicated. I'd love to see the Disappearance story told solely through the perspective of Mikuru or Haruhi, starting with Tanabata 3YA. The alternate timeline that doesn't really exist but which still impacts the "real" timeline...

(actually, come to think of it, I'd kind of like to see the entire series told from Koizumi's or Taniguchi's points of view. I bet that could be fairly interesting, if only to see things that Kyon doesn't ever see, like in "Someday in the Rain". Also, I kind of want to see Kyon through someone else's eyes, particularly someone else who is close to him but immensely more popular and more "normal".)
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Old 2010-03-08, 02:52   Link #3089
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Originally Posted by Grahf616 View Post
Come to think of it, they never did explain how she got it back either. I guess it's assumed that she could contact the future back from her residence in the present, or some other method of at least letting the future know she's stuck. Of course, why she couldn't use it in the past in the first place seems to imply that it's yet another external device.
In volume 7, we have evidence that Mikuru is talking to "mission control" in real time. Near the end of the story, where Kyon is telling her to go back to the previous week, she says that she will have to get permission first, and then suddenly acts surprised to find that it has already been authorized. The way that she says it implies that, rather than just checking her TPDD and finding that the authorization codes have been input, instead she is communicating with someone. As such, this implies that she has some kind of temporal radio that interfaces with her brain.
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Old 2010-03-08, 02:59   Link #3090
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It's not that she is communicating with someone, it's that they know that Kyon is going to ask this... and when I say "they" I mean Big Mikuru a.k.a. "Mission Control."
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Old 2010-03-08, 09:42   Link #3091
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Originally Posted by Sute443 View Post
I just realized something: If Fujiwara's future is invalidated, Mikuru's future would be invalidated as well, seeing as they are from the same future (but perhaps different points along the line). Therefore, unless Mikuru is depowered, Fujiwara will not be depowered.

Please, no one try to support the idiotic idea that they could be from different timelines. Time travel in Haruhi has been shown not to work like that. And in case anyone thinks Volume 9 opens up a way for Mikuru and Fujiwara to be from different futures, then I'll point out that both of them have made appearances before the split occurred. If they did each come from one of those two paths, and one of the paths got erased, then where did the version that showed up before the split come from?
How do you know they are from the same future? My own theory is that one of the timelines leads to Mikuru's future and the other to Fujiwara's future. They are both trying to insure that their future is the one that prevails. And for Mikuru to be worried that Kyon might not chose her future there must be some very big negatives with whichever future Kyon choses.
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Old 2010-03-08, 10:07   Link #3092
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Originally Posted by quigonkenny View Post
That's hardly a special power. I'm making my own history. We all are. Only thing Fujiwara has on that is his knowledge, and if his future is invalidated, he won't even have that.
Sorry, I think I mis-worded my statement. What I meant to say was, he's re-writing his own history now. That should be powerful enough. Granted, he possibly doesn't have a history in this timeline given his age, but who knows? There isn't much indication of how far into the future Fujiwara and Mikuru comes from.

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Originally Posted by PastPrime View Post
How do you know they are from the same future? My own theory is that one of the timelines leads to Mikuru's future and the other to Fujiwara's future. They are both trying to insure that their future is the one that prevails. And for Mikuru to be worried that Kyon might not chose her future there must be some very big negatives with whichever future Kyon choses.
Hmmm... Interesting. I never thought about it this way. From this I have another theory; Mikuru appears first, coming from the future that will be created normally, if Haruhi did not create the SOS Brigade. And then, because of the actions and adventures of the SOS Brigade, Fujiwara's future was created, and his faction competes with Mikuru's faction. In this case, they are from different timelines. Which, I must emphasis, isn't idiotic at all.

On a side note, is there any indication at all that Fujiwara actually uses the TPDD to time-travel? After all, Yuki mentioned that there are more than one way to travel through time.
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Old 2010-03-08, 11:16   Link #3093
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Not directly that I can think of, but its implied since he is Mikuru's counterpart.

The only other way to timetravel that we see is Yuki's slow boat method, where the 'passengers' are basically in stasis for the desired interval while time proceeds normally outside. Given that, I think its a safe assumption that he uses a TPDD or something like it.
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Old 2010-03-09, 02:30   Link #3094
Sute443
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Originally Posted by PastPrime View Post
How do you know they are from the same future?
I explained that in the post you quoted. I'll try to be clearer this time.

Time travel in Haruhi is set up in such a way that grandfather paradoxes cannot occur (but predestination paradoxes/causal loops are common). If Mikuru and Fujiwara came from different timelines, and one of the timelines was invalidated, then where would the one from the invalidated timeline have come from? It would be a grandfather-style paradox.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PastPrime View Post
My own theory is that one of the timelines leads to Mikuru's future and the other to Fujiwara's future. They are both trying to insure that their future is the one that prevails. And for Mikuru to be worried that Kyon might not chose her future there must be some very big negatives with whichever future Kyon choses.
If Fujiwara had only shown up after the split occurred, I would have no problem accepting your theory. As it is, it violates the established rules of Haruhi-style time travel.

Of course, it's possible that Tanigawa isn't as concerned with consistency in time travel as I am, which would throw all of my theorizing out the window. For now, I choose to believe that he shares my concern.
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Old 2010-03-09, 02:37   Link #3095
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I'd say if he was in a pinch about time travel it would happen something like that. Just something to get him out of it without any explanation or earlier mention. :X
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Old 2010-03-09, 12:19   Link #3096
PastPrime
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Originally Posted by Sute443 View Post
I explained that in the post you quoted. I'll try to be clearer this time.

Time travel in Haruhi is set up in such a way that grandfather paradoxes cannot occur (but predestination paradoxes/causal loops are common). If Mikuru and Fujiwara came from different timelines, and one of the timelines was invalidated, then where would the one from the invalidated time line have come from? It would be a grandfather-style paradox.



If Fujiwara had only shown up after the split occurred, I would have no problem accepting your theory. As it is, it violates the established rules of Haruhi-style time travel.

Of course, it's possible that Tanigawa isn't as concerned with consistency in time travel as I am, which would throw all of my theorizing out the window. For now, I choose to believe that he shares my concern.
If you have some quotes from the Arther supporting your view then please post them, if not, then it is only your opinion and should not be stated as fact. As for Fujiwara showing up when he did, that is obvious, the period that he showed up was common to both futures. If he had showed up after the split he would only be in one timeline. We should find out for sure in the next novel. If the Mikuru in one timeline can no longer reach her superiors then it is not the timeline to her future. I suspect that it is Sasaki's power that split the timelines. One where she gets Kyon just as Nagato created a world where she could get Kyon. After all, Mikuru Big already warned Kyon about the diverging timelines and that he would have to chose and she hoped that he would chose her timeline, although not in exactly those words. It wouldn't surprise me if the new girl that Kyon finds familiar isn't he and Haruhi's daughter brought back from the future to help insure his decision.
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Old 2010-03-09, 13:16   Link #3097
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If you have some quotes from the Arther supporting your view then please post them, if not, then it is only your opinion and should not be stated as fact. As for Fujiwara showing up when he did, that is obvious, the period that he showed up was common to both futures. If he had showed up after the split he would only be in one timeline. We should find out for sure in the next novel. If the Mikuru in one timeline can no longer reach her superiors then it is not the timeline to her future. I suspect that it is Sasaki's power that split the timelines. One where she gets Kyon just as Nagato created a world where she could get Kyon. After all, Mikuru Big already warned Kyon about the diverging timelines and that he would have to chose and she hoped that he would chose her timeline, although not in exactly those words. It wouldn't surprise me if the new girl that Kyon finds familiar isn't he and Haruhi's daughter brought back from the future to help insure his decision.
Holy wild crazy guessing, batman!
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Old 2010-03-09, 13:44   Link #3098
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Originally Posted by Sute443 View Post
Time travel in Haruhi is set up in such a way that grandfather paradoxes cannot occur (but predestination paradoxes/causal loops are common). If Mikuru and Fujiwara came from different timelines, and one of the timelines was invalidated, then where would the one from the invalidated timeline have come from? It would be a grandfather-style paradox.
Actually, there is no proof that Grandfather paradoxes can't occur, only that it hasn't occurred YET.
Every precaution the people from the future set up is to prevent Grandfather Paradoxes. In fact, it is their JOB to prevent such paradoxes. What you are saying would have invalidated everything the Timetravellers are trying to do.

The more consistent explanation is that there are no Grandfather Paradoxes because the people of the future MADE SURE there isn't any. And they might fail one day.
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Old 2010-03-10, 01:27   Link #3099
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It's not that she is communicating with someone, it's that they know that Kyon is going to ask this... and when I say "they" I mean Big Mikuru a.k.a. "Mission Control."
What I meant is that somehow young Mikuru, who has NOT yet experienced any of this, somehow knows that her request to jump back eight days has been approved--and that she did NOT know it at the subjective moment when Kyon instructed her to jump back. Rather, Mikuru states that she will have to seek authorization for the time jump, and then is suddenly surprised to find that the authorization has been granted without her needing to explain her motive for requesting the authorization. Her surprise is indicative that it is NOT common practice for an agent to jump first and request authorization afterward (from a subjective-timeline perspective). Therefore, it implies that Mikuru did submit the request and then receive authorization after submitting--whether her knowledge that the request was granted came from being directly told via temporal communication, or from her TPDD indicating that it was authorized, however, is unclear. Either way, however, the situation implies that Mikuru is able to request and receive authorization for TPDD time-jump use using only implanted hardware (she closes her eyes and remains silent for a few seconds when she is apparently submitting the request, suggesting a neural interface).
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Old 2010-03-10, 01:57   Link #3100
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Ah, you're talking about the how not the why.

Perhaps the TPDD is bigger than we think and while the bulk of it is in hammerspace, the control interface itself is implanted in the time traveler.
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