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Old 2010-03-10, 03:09   Link #3101
quigonkenny
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrowKenobi View Post
Ah, you're talking about the how not the why.

Perhaps the TPDD is bigger than we think and while the bulk of it is in hammerspace, the control interface itself is implanted in the time traveler.
UNFOUNDED SPECULATION AHEAD (although it does feel right)

My feeling has always been that all of the MikuruTech is nanotech implanted in her and she accesses it much the same way would access programs on a computer. However since humans are naturally visual and physical creatures, it's not a matter of Mikuru just thinking and something happens. I'm thinking it's something like virtual icons superimposed upon her vision. When she wants to use a certain item, she "grabs" it and manipulates it, and it gives tactile feedback to aid in its use. That's why she was feeling for the TPDD in BLR when theoretically there would be nothing physical for her to grab. It also explains why she put her hand to her ear in Boredom when informed of the massive closed space outbreak (corresponding to Itsuki's phone ringing and Yuki staring off into space like a cat).

Not really anything in the novels that suggests this, just a logical extension on current tech ramped up by a few hundred years and a feeling I got from Mikuru(big)'s interactions with Yuki. But nothing in canon contradicts it. Pending identification of the Tsuruya Artifact.
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Old 2010-03-10, 05:27   Link #3102
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So that means that her brain is computerised huh... makes sense
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Old 2010-03-11, 12:58   Link #3103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Actually, there is no proof that Grandfather paradoxes can't occur, only that it hasn't occurred YET.
Every precaution the people from the future set up is to prevent Grandfather Paradoxes. In fact, it is their JOB to prevent such paradoxes. What you are saying would have invalidated everything the Timetravellers are trying to do.

The more consistent explanation is that there are no Grandfather Paradoxes because the people of the future MADE SURE there isn't any. And they might fail one day.
That is pretty much what was implied during the conversation between Mikuru Big and Kyon toward the end of volume 7.

Also, when Kyon said that he was afraid that Fujiwara was going to stop him from getting the memory device, Mikuru Big said: "He wouldn't dare, that piece of data means everything to the existence of his future as well. That was why he came to this time period." That makes it sound a lot like his future is not the same as her future.
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Old 2010-03-11, 14:38   Link #3104
keri
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PastPrime View Post
That is pretty much what was implied during the conversation between Mikuru Big and Kyon toward the end of volume 7.

Also, when Kyon said that he was afraid that Fujiwara was going to stop him from getting the memory device, Mikuru Big said: "He wouldn't dare, that piece of data means everything to the existence of his future as well. That was why he came to this time period." That makes it sound a lot like his future is not the same as her future.
I thought it was just emphasis that it isn't just Asahina who is from the future, but Fujiwara also has a stake in things, not that they're from different timelines. It's like if they lived in the same house and Asahina were trying to make certain that the fire alarms were working properly, but for whatever reason Fujiwara were interfering. "He wouldn't dare [disable the alarms completely], those alarms mean everything to the existence of his house as well." Basically, he wants to keep Asahina's mission from being successful, but his hands are tied when it comes to actually sabotaging it, since that would nullify himself.

Though I've always felt that Fujiwara comes from a period somewhat after Asahina. Maybe somewhat before her. But not from the exact same point in the future.
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Old 2010-03-11, 15:42   Link #3105
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I've always thought that Fujiwara has a grudge against Mikuru possibly for something that her bigger variant did to him at some point. That's pretty much unfounded and just a guess at this point though.
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Old 2010-03-11, 17:26   Link #3106
keri
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Originally Posted by Grahf616 View Post
I've always thought that Fujiwara has a grudge against Mikuru possibly for something that her bigger variant did to him at some point. That's pretty much unfounded and just a guess at this point though.
Oh, I like that. It fits really well with how I perceive him and his motivations.
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Old 2010-03-12, 01:43   Link #3107
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It could be that, or it could be that there is something about Mikuru that "rubs him the wrong way"--e.g. he has seen the side of Adult Mikuru that is not all sweetness and friendly the way that she has acted when Kyon has seen her, and thus considers her to be a wolf in sheep's clothing.

On Grandfather paradoxes: from the actions of Mikuru's faction (and implied by Kyon's own actions when time-traveling), we are shown that the past can be altered (if Mikuru's faction believed that attempts to alter the past are inherently fated to fail, then they would not be so AFRAID of changes--unless of course you claim that their fear is fated too, in which case you are essentially throwing the entire concept of free will out the window). However, it is pretty certain that a person eliminating his own past due to timeline changes is not going to create an indeterminate state (i.e. a state where he has to exist to prevent his past and yet also NOT exist because of having prevented it). Instead, it appears that either the "orphaned" person will disappear from existence, or will continue to exist without needing a past.

Last edited by ijuinkun; 2010-03-12 at 02:23.
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Old 2010-03-13, 01:16   Link #3108
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Again, allow me to reintroduce the Novikov self-consistency principle. This is highly significant to Haruhi-verse time travel since there have been no examples of time travel to and through alternate realities/dimensions thus far. The self consistency principle states that:
If an event exists that would give rise to a paradox, or to any "change" to the past whatsoever, then the probability of that event is zero.
The Novikov Principle does not allow a time traveler to change the past in any way, but it does allow them to affect past events in a way that produces no inconsistencies. Basically, time travel will never change history, since the act of traveling to the past was already part of history in the first place. For example:
Quote:
even if there were time travelers on the Titanic, they obviously failed to stop the ship from sinking.
Quote:
a time traveller could rescue people from a disaster, and replace them with realistic corpses seconds before it occurs. Providing that the rescuees do not re-emerge until after the time traveller first journeyed into the past, his/her motivation to create the time machine and travel into the past will be preserved. In this example, it must always have been true that the people were rescued by a time traveller and replaced with realistic corpses, there was no "original" history where they were actually killed, since the notion of "changing" the past is deemed impossible by the self-consistency principle.
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Old 2010-03-13, 05:44   Link #3109
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Originally Posted by Ice Block View Post
Again, allow me to reintroduce the Novikov self-consistency principle. This is highly significant to Haruhi-verse time travel since there have been no examples of time travel to and through alternate realities/dimensions thus far. The self consistency principle states that:
If an event exists that would give rise to a paradox, or to any "change" to the past whatsoever, then the probability of that event is zero.
The Novikov Principle does not allow a time traveler to change the past in any way, but it does allow them to affect past events in a way that produces no inconsistencies. Basically, time travel will never change history, since the act of traveling to the past was already part of history in the first place. For example:
Allow me to introduce the Suzumiya Inconsistency Principle (just named). It's highly significant to the Haruhi-verse because it states:
Having a character whose very existence subconsciously causes the laws of physics to behave unexpectedly makes it impossible to lower the probability of any event to zero.
So far Haruhi has potentially remade the whole universe, caused a break in the timeline that has proven insurmountable by time travel, awoken an eons-old data entity via a .GIF, discovered time travel (unknowingly), split off two weeks of time and repeated them over 15,000 times, granted sentience and speech to a male calico, changed the species of a few hundred pigeons, altered the precession of the earth's rotation, learned/made up an alien language, and saved or created over 2 million jobs, all subconsciously. Fiddling with time travel possibilities is out of her purview? ^_^
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Old 2010-03-13, 08:34   Link #3110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quigonkenny View Post
Fiddling with time travel possibilities is out of her purview? ^_^
Well, Mikuru's faction's time travel tech was based on her journal article anyway, so I guess she subconsciously keeps her universe's time travel mechanisms in check. I brought up the self-consistency principle since, so far, there have been no scenarios (or evidence thereof) where Mikuru(Big)'s era has been altered by events caused by time travel missions to Kyon's era. This means that Mikuru(Small)'s and Fujiwara's actions in Kyon's era were all part of history ever since Haruhi changed the world.

And yeah, there was a time travel theory stating that you won't be able to travel back past he time when the working "time machine" [concept] was created. Perhaps this explains why it's impossible to go past Day Zero, since this is when the possibility of time travel (to the past) was lifted from zero.
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Old 2010-03-13, 20:42   Link #3111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quigonkenny View Post
Allow me to introduce the Suzumiya Inconsistency Principle (just named). It's highly significant to the Haruhi-verse because it states:
Having a character whose very existence subconsciously causes the laws of physics to behave unexpectedly makes it impossible to lower the probability of any event to zero.
While I like your Suzumiya Inconsistency Principle (which was just named), I'm wondering when on Earth did she save/create 2 millions jobs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice Block View Post

And yeah, there was a time travel theory stating that you won't be able to travel back past he time when the working "time machine" [concept] was created. Perhaps this explains why it's impossible to go past Day Zero, since this is when the possibility of time travel (to the past) was lifted from zero.
Judging from Mikuru's statements when she first explained her identity to Kyon, I say that the time-travelers have been able to go past that time-fissure 3 (4?) years ago previously. It's just that when Haruhi discovered her powers, she destroyed the 'flow of pictures', and they couldn't leap past that hurdle. So going by your theory, either:

1) Haruhi wasn't the originator of time-travel. That's why the time-travelers could previously travel further back than 3 years ago, or before 'Day Zero', as you call it.

OR,

2) Haruhi screwed your theory up and somehow allowed the time-travelers to leap past 'Day Zero'.
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Old 2010-03-13, 23:44   Link #3112
quigonkenny
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Originally Posted by edkedkedk View Post
While I like your Suzumiya Inconsistency Principle (which was just named), I'm wondering when on Earth did she save/create 2 millions jobs? :heh:
American politics joke. Feel free to ignore. ^_^

Regarding Fujiwara's origins, I've just never liked the idea of "rival" time traveler groups coming from the same world/timeline. Logistically, if they're at odds enough to be considered rivals, which is what he certainly considers Mikuru, then their joint history should be so full of holes as to make their very existence questionable. With different timeline,s research has to be done on the other group's timeline so as to figure out where they are succeptible, which allows for at least a temporary Mexican Standoff situation before one side or the other starts trying things.
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Old 2010-03-14, 00:04   Link #3113
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This is explained in the novels: Fujiwara's group wants to erase the very existence of time travelers, which makes them logically at odds with the people who want to keep history the same as it always was.

Nothing in that supports them being from two different timelines.
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Old 2010-03-14, 09:40   Link #3114
PastPrime
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Originally Posted by Ice Block View Post
Well, Mikuru's faction's time travel tech was based on her journal article anyway, so I guess she subconsciously keeps her universe's time travel mechanisms in check. I brought up the self-consistency principle since, so far, there have been no scenarios (or evidence thereof) where Mikuru(Big)'s era has been altered by events caused by time travel missions to Kyon's era. This means that Mikuru(Small)'s and Fujiwara's actions in Kyon's era were all part of history ever since Haruhi changed the world.

And yeah, there was a time travel theory stating that you won't be able to travel back past he time when the working "time machine" [concept] was created. Perhaps this explains why it's impossible to go past Day Zero, since this is when the possibility of time travel (to the past) was lifted from zero.
I will give a couple of quotes from the Novel, first Kyon, after Mikuru Big had explained to him the purpose of what he did. And it has been said that the author uses Kyon to give his point of view,
"A memory from a corner of my brain was suddenly awoken. It was a few days before the school festival, something that
Nagato said to me at a time when I was mightily busy while shooting the climax of the movie,
In order to stabilize the future, it is necessary to input the correct value. Asahina Mikuru's mission is to adjust that variable to
an acceptable value.
Now was not the time to be feeling giddy about how good my memory was. The ambiguous phrase "in order to stabilize the
future"... "There could only be one future, whether it was stable or not, right?" I had long since abandoned that idea.
Could the future be unstable?
In other words, could there exist other futures apart from Asahina-san's future?
It would make sense if that's the case, but only a little. If the future really diverged into many different branches, then there
once existed two futures where the boy survives in one and is now dead in the other, it's just that I've killed off the possibility
of the latter from ever happening.
That means thanks to my help, I had destroyed one future completely.
I didn't know if that was the correct answer. Even though this deduction was so weak that if I were to say "Here's a problem
for our readers to discuss", I'd probably be condemned as an idiot; but it wasn't easy trying to dispel a wild thought that I had
just formulated. When I thought about this, I just didn't know what to say. Was there more?"
Doesn't sound like he agrees with your definition.

And then Mikuru Big
"The divergence points are mostly concentrated in this time period, though a lot would end up the same, anyway; but the
things that you have done the past few days, if not done, would create divergences that would lead to all sorts of futures..."
Asahina-san's charming voice began to grow weak,
"Very soon you will be faced with a great divergence, a choice that would cause a great change to the future... If you chose the
other side, then it... um... it wouldn't be good for our future."
I suddenly felt stiff for no reason, and I had wanted to turn and face Asahina-san. Damn, why can't I turn my face!?
"But it doesn't matter, because I can trust you, right?"

Sounds like she also thinks that the future can be changed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon
This is explained in the novels: Fujiwara's group wants to erase the very existence of time travelers, which makes them logically at odds with the people who want to keep history the same as it alway.
But, as I posted before, Mikuru Big says "He wouldn't dare, that piece of data means everything to the existence of his future as well. That was why he came to this time period,"
Asahina-san elaborated in simple terms.
"For us future time-travelers, that is a predetermined event; but for you and the recipient of the data, it's a coincidence. That's
how time works,"
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Old 2010-03-14, 11:23   Link #3115
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^If Asahina (Big) thinks that the the future can be manipulated, she kind of contradicted herself because she also believes that there is no contunuity between the past and future. (Her future, our present)

(BTW, after a long time of lurking, i've finally decided to join the forum. )
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Old 2010-03-17, 10:17   Link #3116
PastPrime
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Originally Posted by TheHaruhiIncarnate View Post
^If Asahina (Big) thinks that the the future can be manipulated, she kind of contradicted herself because she also believes that there is no contunuity between the past and future. (Her future, our present)

(BTW, after a long time of lurking, i've finally decided to join the forum. )
It appears to me that you can never fully trust what Mikuru and Itsuki say, which Kyon also seems to believe. At ant rate, I believe that her statement about continuity was that Time Traveler's actions would not change the future. That is why she always has to get Kyon to do things. It would be much simpler if she could do them herself.
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Old 2010-03-17, 10:37   Link #3117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHaruhiIncarnate View Post
^If Asahina (Big) thinks that the the future can be manipulated, she kind of contradicted herself because she also believes that there is no contunuity between the past and future. (Her future, our present)

(BTW, after a long time of lurking, i've finally decided to join the forum. )
Huh. She really did contradict herself...Wonder what she actually believes?
And welcome!
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Old 2010-03-17, 11:21   Link #3118
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Just an update on a topic discussed earlier:

Kyon is on the inner flap of the special panorama cover for the Yuutsu novel. Why he was put there, I cannot confirm a specific reason.
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Old 2010-03-17, 17:11   Link #3119
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It's probably the 10th novel...
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Old 2010-03-17, 17:47   Link #3120
keri
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It's probably the 10th novel...
Huh?

That's the first novel. And it's been shown in other threads (I believe it may even be this one) that the image doesn't wrap properly for that part of the picture to be used for the 10th novel's cover. There would have to be some photoshopping or extending done for it to work.

Last edited by keri; 2010-03-17 at 17:51. Reason: this IS the novel & manga thread -.-
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