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Old 2010-11-07, 17:02   Link #3681
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Originally Posted by schildi View Post
Hi,

what is your basis for this speculation?
I saw the two seasons and read the 4 English light novels. I hope that is enough to participate (unfortunatly I can't read the Japanese light novels -.-).
Or have I missed out on anything?

greetings from Germany
well this speculation is form recent novel form Japan volume 9 and small preview of vol 10. at this rate probably the will translates end of 2011.

if you want to spoil your self (i WARN you) please go here

http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=93098
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Old 2010-11-11, 07:51   Link #3682
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Is it just my area or has Barnes and Noble stopped stocking the paperback versions in stores?
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Old 2010-11-11, 08:26   Link #3683
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Originally Posted by bayoab View Post
Is it just my area or has Barnes and Noble stopped stocking the paperback versions in stores?
After reviewing over the online stock status for my area, the only Haruhi novel/manga volume that was labeled as "in stock" was the paperback for Boredom in one store. It could be wrong, but I'm not in a position to review the in-store status at this moment.
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Old 2010-11-11, 14:28   Link #3684
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Originally Posted by bayoab View Post
Is it just my area or has Barnes and Noble stopped stocking the paperback versions in stores?
When Sigh came out last year, I couldn't find either book (paperback or hardback) at my B&N, even though when I got home and checked the website, that location was said to have them in stock. I found them at Borders, though.
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Old 2010-11-13, 12:02   Link #3685
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When Sigh came out last year, I couldn't find either book (paperback or hardback) at my B&N, even though when I got home and checked the website, that location was said to have them in stock. I found them at Borders, though.
Yeah, I had to look at Borders for the latest ones in-store. I think B&N had Melancholy in the teen section, and then the others were relegated to the manga section, to compete for shelf space with the Haruhi manga. Only I can't seem to find either one in the manga section of B&N.

Oh well, I like Borders better anyway.
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Old 2010-11-15, 03:44   Link #3686
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I got my copy of Disappearance (paperback) today at Borders ^^ I wish they had had the Hardcover, but they didn't have it for this book >_> and with this, all I need is the Hardcover of Disappearance and I will have all 9 JP novels and all translated(so far) paper backs and hardcovers ^^
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Old 2010-11-16, 03:13   Link #3687
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Well, I read Archonia will have Disappearance (both paperback and hardcover) in stock soon, so I'm gonna order the hardcover later today.

Also, they still don't have the Boredom HC in stock yet and I pre-ordered it almost forever ago. Hilarious, isn't it?
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Old 2010-12-06, 23:58   Link #3688
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Edit: Conversation below moved from 2009 Re-Launch thread because it mostly covers the way story elements were presented in the Novels.

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Originally Posted by Gamer_2k4 View Post
Well, without E8, there's pretty much no reason for Disappearance.
Do remember that E8 was in Volume 5. Disappearance is the 4th volume. Take that how you will, but I've always thought that too much credit for Yuki's "errors" is given to E8. Only peripheral mention is made in Disappearance to the "endless event in August" (or some such, I don't remember the exact phrase). Personally I think her budding feelings for Kyon are more responsible.
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Old 2010-12-07, 00:55   Link #3689
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Endless Eight may have been compiled in the fifth volume, but it was indeed written before Disappearance.
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Old 2010-12-07, 01:35   Link #3690
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Originally Posted by quigonkenny View Post
Do remember that E8 was in Volume 5. Disappearance is the 4th volume. Take that how you will, but I've always thought that too much credit for Yuki's "errors" is given to E8. Only peripheral mention is made in Disappearance to the "endless event in August" (or some such, I don't remember the exact phrase). Personally I think her budding feelings for Kyon are more responsible.
Sure, and Sigh is the second book, despite happening after Boredom. E8 causing the errors may have been a retcon for the author, but it makes WAY more sense to me than any other explanation. Sure, the ISDE's computers are much more advanced than ours (being human interfaces and all that), but it doesn't take a genius to understand that a computer might not run well after being on for 600 years straight.

Remember, we have pretty good evidence, at least in the TV show, to indicate that Endless Eight is affecting Yuki negatively: She looks progressively more and more bored and tired as the loops go on. (At one time I had thought she was screwing up the activity counts from episode to episode, but it turns out that was a subbing error.)

Now, Kyon does say that Yuki altered the world because of her growing emotions, but that's just his opinion. He's considered an unreliable narrator for a reason, and that reason is simply that we can't take everything he says as truth. Yuki is developing feelings for Kyon? Her most recent experience with him is 600 YEARS of him doing the same things over and over and over again. The other facets of his personality make up a sixth of a percent of her experiences with him. I would argue that's so low as to be negligible.

Yeah, yeah, he was the one she singled out to make the choice between worlds, it's canon, yeah, I know. But come on!
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Old 2010-12-07, 02:20   Link #3691
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Originally Posted by Gamer_2k4 View Post
Sure, and Sigh is the second book, despite happening after Boredom. E8 causing the errors may have been a retcon for the author, but it makes WAY more sense to me than any other explanation.
Except E8 was written before vol 3 was published and yet it was chosen to go in the 5th volume. This indicates that the author does not see it as important to understanding vol4/Disappearance. If you are to read it in novel order, you would never know E8 happened beside the one abstract reference to it. This is further reinforced when you consider that vol 5 and 6 are almost all one-off non-connected short stories which take place on both sides of vol 4 chronologically while vol 1, 2 and 3 are all putting the chess pieces in place for vol 4.

Additionally, the novel version of E8 fits into the typical of SOS brigade one shot adventure pattern (beside two details, which one could argue actually further the non-connected theory). It feels completely disconnected. It is nothing like the anime version which is intended to give the viewer the same feelings as Yuki.

Unless there is something in a later volume that suggests E8 is connected, this only seems like wishful thinking on the fandom.
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Old 2010-12-07, 10:43   Link #3692
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Originally Posted by Gamer_2k4 View Post
Sure, and Sigh is the second book, despite happening after Boredom. E8 causing the errors may have been a retcon for the author, but it makes WAY more sense to me than any other explanation. Sure, the ISDE's computers are much more advanced than ours (being human interfaces and all that), but it doesn't take a genius to understand that a computer might not run well after being on for 600 years straight.

Remember, we have pretty good evidence, at least in the TV show, to indicate that Endless Eight is affecting Yuki negatively: She looks progressively more and more bored and tired as the loops go on. (At one time I had thought she was screwing up the activity counts from episode to episode, but it turns out that was a subbing error.)

Now, Kyon does say that Yuki altered the world because of her growing emotions, but that's just his opinion. He's considered an unreliable narrator for a reason, and that reason is simply that we can't take everything he says as truth. Yuki is developing feelings for Kyon? Her most recent experience with him is 600 YEARS of him doing the same things over and over and over again. The other facets of his personality make up a sixth of a percent of her experiences with him. I would argue that's so low as to be negligible.

Yeah, yeah, he was the one she singled out to make the choice between worlds, it's canon, yeah, I know. But come on!
"Come on"!? I should be saying that. Even the most unreasonable HaruKyon shipper acknowledges that, whatever Kyon's feelings for her, Yuki is deep in robot love with him. It only shapes her actions and interactions for most of the series. And the impetus for that was clearly the library visit way back in Volume 1, which in Yuki's case means she's had the hots for him since Bamboo Leaf Rhapsody. In other words, well before E8 or Disappearance. Him being the "key" to unlocking the Yukiverse is only the most overt display of her affection at that time.
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Old 2010-12-07, 13:04   Link #3693
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Don't misunderstand me here. I like Yuki most out of all the characters (look no further than my avatar), and I think if we're going to start matching up people, I'd prefer her to be with Kyon much more than the herp derp Mikuru or the crazy Haruhi or the male Itsuki. I admit that the books seem to support her attraction to him as well ("it's canon, yeah, I know"). I just don't think it makes sense, that's all. Kyon got you a library card? Whoop-dee-friggin-doo! He did it so that you would leave the library, not because he was infatuated with you.

However, Yuki's attraction to Kyon was not the basis for Disappearance; it was just the reason that she left his memory intact. She altered the world because she was sick of Haruhi screwing everything up. And which screwup had the greatest impact on Yuki? Endless Eight. Call it buggy data or call it just getting fed up, E8 had a major role in causing Disappearance.
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Old 2010-12-08, 02:50   Link #3694
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So basically "YUKI SMASH!" ?
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Old 2010-12-09, 01:34   Link #3695
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Originally Posted by Gamer_2k4 View Post
Don't misunderstand me here. I like Yuki most out of all the characters (look no further than my avatar), and I think if we're going to start matching up people, I'd prefer her to be with Kyon much more than the herp derp Mikuru or the crazy Haruhi or the male Itsuki. I admit that the books seem to support her attraction to him as well ("it's canon, yeah, I know"). I just don't think it makes sense, that's all. Kyon got you a library card? Whoop-dee-friggin-doo! He did it so that you would leave the library, not because he was infatuated with you.

However, Yuki's attraction to Kyon was not the basis for Disappearance; it was just the reason that she left his memory intact. She altered the world because she was sick of Haruhi screwing everything up. And which screwup had the greatest impact on Yuki? Endless Eight. Call it buggy data or call it just getting fed up, E8 had a major role in causing Disappearance.
I'm curious to hear what drove you to that impression. I thought I'd heard them all, in the last 4 years...
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Old 2010-12-09, 02:02   Link #3696
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Well, my translation of the book has the following two paragraphs:
This girl was only feeling tired. Having to spend all day being turned around in circles by Haruhi, while busy saving my life, as well as being secretly active in some unknown location behind our backs - it was only natural that she would become fatigued by it all.

and

It is because you were designed not to have any emotions to begin with, the reaction felt from you was far greater. You probably felt like screaming, or going ballistic, or just yelling out loud, "You stupid girl! I've had enough of you!"

The movie abridges those lines slightly, but I got the same idea out of it. Nagato's life sucks because she has to take all the stress of all the supernatural problems in the world. And, according to leading theories, Haruhi is the cause of those problems. Therefore, even if it's not explicitly stated (though it is), it's a fair assumption that Nagato's problems began with Haruhi.
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Old 2010-12-09, 07:42   Link #3697
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Originally Posted by Gamer_2k4 View Post
Well, my translation of the book has the following two paragraphs:
This girl was only feeling tired. Having to spend all day being turned around in circles by Haruhi, while busy saving my life, as well as being secretly active in some unknown location behind our backs - it was only natural that she would become fatigued by it all.
That's Kyon speculating on what he thinks Yuki's motivations are. He's assuming that she's human, just like he is. It's fundamentally flawed, as while the IDTE has a good model of how a human intelligence works (they gave Asakura the ability to flawlessly imitate the humans around her,) it doesn't mean that they actually are human. (For example, Asakura's human interface turns out to be an overlay on an utterly alien intelligence. Attempting to kill Kyon to perturb Haruhi is a perfectly rational thing to do if one assigns a low value to the preservation of human life.)

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It is because you were designed not to have any emotions to begin with, the reaction felt from you was far greater. You probably felt like screaming, or going ballistic, or just yelling out loud, "You stupid girl! I've had enough of you!"
More speculation on the part of Kyon. That, or he's projecting. If Endless Eight has taught us anything, the one Nagato ought to be railing at is Kyon, a man so determined to avoid doing his homework that he spends nearly six centuries in a time-loop partying, ogling the girls of the SOS-dan like a lecherous pervert, and getting free Haruhi boob-molestation-while-on-a-bicycle. Only after witnessing a few decades of his compatriots growing misery does he finally get enough of a guilt-trip to acknowledge that it's time to do his homework.

Quote:
The movie abridges those lines slightly, but I got the same idea out of it. Nagato's life sucks because she has to take all the stress of all the supernatural problems in the world. And, according to leading theories, Haruhi is the cause of those problems. Therefore, even if it's not explicitly stated (though it is), it's a fair assumption that Nagato's problems began with Haruhi.
Of course they began with Haruhi. Yuki had no reason to exist as Yuki Nagato (if, in fact, she existed at all) until Haruhi re-wrote the backstory of the universe.

And even so, is it Haruhi who's the problem? It could just as easily be that Nagato's human personality overlay had enough of watching Kyon party and ogle her and avoid doing his homework for six centuries; and watching Kyon play action hero while blaming it on Haruhi. It could just as easily be that Yuki was trying to show Kyon that living as an ordinary human in an ordinary world really wouldn't be such a bad thing. Only this conflicted with her core goal of observing the Kyon Show, so she found herself leaving him an out anyway. Yet, she was determined enough that she'd written in a contingency plan (Asakura Mk. II) in case Kyon decided he liked being the star of his own show and having a supernatural enabler.
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Old 2010-12-09, 11:56   Link #3698
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That's Kyon speculating on what he thinks Yuki's motivations are.
Okay, so we have three options (feel free to bring up more if they exist).
  1. Yuki has truly accumulated buggy data.
  2. Yuki is developing emotions.
  3. Yuki is trying to teach Kyon, "Be careful what you wish for."

Assuming that #1 is the case, then it's almost impossible to rule out E8, for two reasons. The first reason is that the endless looping of time was (likely) the most anomalous experience Yuki had in her time with Haruhi. For the utter uniqueness of the situation, it's not much of a stretch to say that that in itself was the cause of the errors.

However, there's a much more basic reason to assume E8 was the source of this buggy data: it's 600 years long! Assuming the errors were building up at a constant rate, over 99% of them would've happened during E8. And if the errors were started by an isolated event, the sheer magnitude of time Yuki spent in those two weeks almost precludes any other event as the source by simple probability.

I don't agree with #2 from a rational perspective, but Word of God seems to indicate otherwise, so...not much to argue here. Besides, I've said my piece concerning that in response to quigonkenny. If emotions caused the change, they weren't feelings for Kyon as much as they were feelings against Haruhi.

See my response at the bottom for #3.

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More speculation on the part of Kyon. That, or he's projecting. If Endless Eight has taught us anything, the one Nagato ought to be railing at is Kyon, a man so determined to avoid doing his homework that he spends nearly six centuries in a time-loop partying, ogling the girls of the SOS-dan like a lecherous pervert, and getting free Haruhi boob-molestation-while-on-a-bicycle. Only after witnessing a few decades of his compatriots growing misery does he finally get enough of a guilt-trip to acknowledge that it's time to do his homework.
...

That would be all well and good, if Kyon KNEW that it was the homework that was keeping them back. It's like if time was looping because we were out of butter, and some millennia later you scream at me, "YOU LAZY BUM! WHY DIDN'T YOU EVER BUY MORE BUTTER!?" Um, because I had no reason to believe that was the cause for time looping? No one would ever think of doing homework because that's quite possibly the most mundane way to conclude a story in the history of everything, ever.

Furthermore, the looping wasn't even because Kyon's homework was incomplete; it was because Haruhi wanted to work together on homework with other people. Remember, Itsuki's homework wasn't done either, and it's unclear about the other two (IIRC). If, at the end of July, Mikuru had said, "Hey Haruhi, let's all work on homework together," the two weeks of looping could've been avoided altogether. She didn't; does that make it her fault that E8 happened? Of course not.

Incidentally, since we're on the topic, how the heck does Yuki know that she'll recreate the world? Mikuru can't contact the future in E8 because there is literally NO FUTURE. What does Yuki synchronize with, then?

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It could just as easily be that Yuki was trying to show Kyon that living as an ordinary human in an ordinary world really wouldn't be such a bad thing. Only this conflicted with her core goal of observing the Kyon Show, so she found herself leaving him an out anyway. Yet, she was determined enough that she'd written in a contingency plan (Asakura Mk. II) in case Kyon decided he liked being the star of his own show and having a supernatural enabler.
Remember, up until late in the Disappearance story, Kyon believed that he hated Haruhi's world and would have done everything for a normal life. That moment in the movie was so darn dramatic because it was such a striking personal revelation for him. Kyon had already been operating under the assumption that the ordinary world really wouldn't be such a bad thing, so it's unlikely that the reason you gave above was Yuki's motivation for creating one.


Side note: As I was typing this, I just realized that Disappearance is a lot like "It's a Wonderful Life." The main character thinks he's fed up with the real world, is shown a place without the key person that made that world what it was, and decides that the real world isn't so bad after all. Sorry, Tanigawa; you got beaten by about 60 years on this one.
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Old 2010-12-09, 12:17   Link #3699
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Side note: As I was typing this, I just realized that Disappearance is a lot like "It's a Wonderful Life." The main character thinks he's fed up with the real world, is shown a place without the key person that made that world what it was, and decides that the real world isn't so bad after all. Sorry, Tanigawa; you got beaten by about 60 years on this one.
*buzzer*

The part you left out is that in "It's a Wonderful Life" the key person = main character; not so in Disappearance. That's enough that the stories and the way they work are different. Kyon is denying that he likes Haruhi and the antics she causes, George thinks he's useless and intends on committing suicide.
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Old 2010-12-09, 13:42   Link #3700
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See my response at the bottom for #3.
...

That would be all well and good, if Kyon KNEW that it was the homework that was keeping them back. It's like if time was looping because we were out of butter, and some millennia later you scream at me, "YOU LAZY BUM! WHY DIDN'T YOU EVER BUY MORE BUTTER!?" Um, because I had no reason to believe that was the cause for time looping? No one would ever think of doing homework because that's quite possibly the most mundane way to conclude a story in the history of everything, ever.
There is nothing that Haruhi does that does not, in some way, benefit some desire of Kyon's. Kyon needs to get out more . . . voila the SOS-dan, and all of its wacky hijinks. Kyon lusts after hot girls . . . voila most of the SOS-dan is hot girls. Kyon wants an exciting life . . . voila there's all sorts of mysterious stuff going on, and Kyon is part of all of it. Kyon wants to avoid doing his homework . . . voila six century party. Girlfriend experience . . . voila he and Haruhi get trapped together in a parallel reality, he gets to kiss her, and they both have plausible deniabilty. Indulge some teenage perversion . . . well, there's the whole Haruhi x Mikuru dynamic. Feel chivalrous . . . there's the whole Haruhi x Mikuru dynamic.

There is ample evidence to suggest that the real holder of power in Kyon x Haruhi isn't actually Haruhi. Haruhi may be omnipotent, but it's Kyon everyone is interested in. He's the only one she listens to. He's the one whose life is made more interesting by the things she does. Haruhi herself is so completely unaware of what is going on that she's bored.

So with that in mind, it's very much Kyon's homework, and his avoidance thereof, that causes E8. Remember the first iteration? Where he realizes that he hasn't tried to do any of it . . . and then he blows it off? And even when confronted the truth about the time loop . . . does he try anything that might break the loop? Nah, he just follows Sociopath Sue and her Summer of Fun. And . . . at the end . . . with having to pull an all-day cram session to finish it, his reaction is still "Whatever. What happens tomorrow happens."

Who knows, perhaps the instabilities that would cause Yuki to trigger Disappearance were manifesting themselves late in E8 . . . maybe she's suffering from conflicting imperatives. Primary goal, watch the Kyon x Haruhi show. Fine, except her memory is getting full and her Windows DITE install is starting to suffer from system rot. So she starts to violate her prime directive in small ways . . . screen the members of the SOS-dan from iteration to iteration. It's not very effective as she's not completely snapped yet, and because Haruhi's nuke-and-pave of the universe is devastatingly effective. Eventually, enough memory of the consequences of the endless summer finally tickle Kyon's subconscious into suggesting the summer-ending homework-a-thon.

Quote:
Furthermore, the looping wasn't even because Kyon's homework was incomplete; it was because Haruhi wanted to work together on homework with other people. Remember, Itsuki's homework wasn't done either, and it's unclear about the other two (IIRC).
A lot of the Haruhi-x-Kyon relationship is built on denial and plausible deniability. If you realized that you've subjected your friends to 600 years of endless time because, perhaps, you subconsciously wanted to avoid doing your homework and party . . . you too might latch on the suggestion that it's because Sociopath Sue wanted to have a homework bonding session, even though there's no evidence to suggest that she wanted any such thing. She forces herself in, because Kyon was clearly about to leave her out of a club activity.

FWIW, Yuki probably had her homework done five seconds after it was assigned to her.

Quote:
If, at the end of July, Mikuru had said, "Hey Haruhi, let's all work on homework together," the two weeks of looping could've been avoided altogether. She didn't; does that make it her fault that E8 happened? Of course not.
Which Mikuru would never, ever do. She's mortally afraid of causing a Grandfather Paradox. So she's not going to go off-script for any reason.

Quote:
Incidentally, since we're on the topic, how the heck does Yuki know that she'll recreate the world? Mikuru can't contact the future in E8 because there is literally NO FUTURE. What does Yuki synchronize with, then?
Can we say for sure that Mikuru is telling the truth? Or that she even knows the truth? Her temporal travel and communications capabilities can clearly be enabled and disabled at-will by senior time-cops. Mikuru the Elder disables Mikuru the Younger's TPDD in BLR. It's not inconceivable that Mikuru the Elder completely cut off Mikuru the Younger's time-travelling abilities for the duration of E8. Or, perhaps, Haruhi's ability to tie timespace in knots far exceeds the ability of Mikuru's people to overcome it; but not the Nibblonians DITE.

Quote:
Remember, up until late in the Disappearance story, Kyon believed that he hated Haruhi's world and would have done everything for a normal life. That moment in the movie was so darn dramatic because it was such a striking personal revelation for him. Kyon had already been operating under the assumption that the ordinary world really wouldn't be such a bad thing, so it's unlikely that the reason you gave above was Yuki's motivation for creating one.
Kyon seems to love the sound of his own voice. He just complains and complains and complains. Even when things are going his way, he's complaining about it.

Subconsciously, he loves what Haruhi does for him. It's why he spends all his time in the Yuki-verse obsessing over Haruhi. It's why he un-hesitatingly presses the EJECT button when presented with the opportunity. His conscious acknowledgment of what he subconsciously knows doesn't come until after he bailed out of the Yuki-verse and shortly before Yuki's backup plan comes gunning for him.

And what I suggested was Yuki's reason for creating the Yuki-verse was to put an end to Kyon's career as the star of his own fantasy anime. There wouldn't have been a reason for Plan Asakura B if it was just to teach Kyon a lesson.
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