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Old 2010-12-09, 15:25   Link #3701
Gamer_2k4
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Originally Posted by GMT View Post
There is nothing that Haruhi does that does not, in some way, benefit some desire of Kyon's. Kyon needs to get out more . . . voila the SOS-dan, and all of its wacky hijinks. Kyon lusts after hot girls . . . voila most of the SOS-dan is hot girls. Kyon wants an exciting life . . . voila there's all sorts of mysterious stuff going on, and Kyon is part of all of it. Kyon wants to avoid doing his homework . . . voila six century party. Girlfriend experience . . . voila he and Haruhi get trapped together in a parallel reality, he gets to kiss her, and they both have plausible deniabilty. Indulge some teenage perversion . . . well, there's the whole Haruhi x Mikuru dynamic. Feel chivalrous . . . there's the whole Haruhi x Mikuru dynamic.

There is ample evidence to suggest that the real holder of power in Kyon x Haruhi isn't actually Haruhi. Haruhi may be omnipotent, but it's Kyon everyone is interested in. He's the only one she listens to. He's the one whose life is made more interesting by the things she does. Haruhi herself is so completely unaware of what is going on that she's bored.
I would argue very strongly that that's because Kyon is an author avatar, and there's no other reason for it. The whole Haruhi world is the way it is because that's the sort of thing that sells. The drooling anime fans want bunny girls. They want one hot girl groping the other. They want a story where a guy (who's kind of a loser, actually), through no effort of his own, is plunged into a world of adventure and sexy times. They want to live in a fantasy world where the guy who does nothing is still the pivotal point for the whole universe. Haruhi's doing this stuff for Kyon? Please. Tanigawa's doing this stuff for Kyon.

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Originally Posted by GMT View Post
So with that in mind, it's very much Kyon's homework, and his avoidance thereof, that causes E8. Remember the first iteration? Where he realizes that he hasn't tried to do any of it . . . and then he blows it off? And even when confronted the truth about the time loop . . . does he try anything that might break the loop? Nah, he just follows Sociopath Sue and her Summer of Fun. And . . . at the end . . . with having to pull an all-day cram session to finish it, his reaction is still "Whatever. What happens tomorrow happens."
Um, I've been there before too. I've had homework that was due the next day, and I pushed it off. You know why? Because I had no reason to believe that I would SCREW UP THE ENTIRE FLOW OF TIME by doing it. Blaming Kyon for putting off his homework in the first loop is completely off the mark.

As for the loops afterwards, you really think Kyon should just say, "Oh hey, I'm the main character, so it's really me that needs to do something to end the summer, so let's figure out what it is that I need to do"? That's a little meta, don't you think? Kyon's gotten by thus far by doing exactly what the others have told him. They're the ones in the know, after all. So when they all say, "Hey, there's something HARUHI needs to do before the summer can end," why in the world would he hear that as, "There's something KYON needs to do"??

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Originally Posted by GMT View Post
A lot of the Haruhi-x-Kyon relationship is built on denial and plausible deniability. If you realized that you've subjected your friends to 600 years of endless time because, perhaps, you subconsciously wanted to avoid doing your homework and party . . . you too might latch on the suggestion that it's because Sociopath Sue wanted to have a homework bonding session, even though there's no evidence to suggest that she wanted any such thing. She forces herself in, because Kyon was clearly about to leave her out of a club activity.
Okay. Let me be perfectly clear about this. Until we're told otherwise, Kyon has no supernatural power whatsoever. All the problems with the world are the result of someone else. When Asakura attacked Kyon the first time, it wasn't because he decided he needed a little danger in his life. When the computer club President disappeared, it wasn't because Kyon wanted to battle a cave cricket. When Mikuru's airsoft pistols began launching blasts of water, it wasn't because Kyon felt warm that day. When Itsuki fought the Celestials, it wasn't because Kyon was in the mood for giant-slaying.

Yes, Kyon is often at the focal point of the craziness. NO, Kyon is not the cause of the craziness. One, two, three years ago, Kyon probably blew off his homework in the exact same way that he did during E8. That's his character; that's how he would act. Endless Eight did NOT happen because Kyon wanted to keep going to boring movies and working part-time jobs. In fact, I don't think I can remember a single instance of him appearing enthusiastic about the things Haruhi wanted to do.

Endless Eight happened because HARUHI had more things to do before the summer could end. If there's no evidence to indicate that she wanted to do homework, it's because "I want to do homework with everyone!" is a flat-out stupid thing to think (not that stupid thoughts are in any way beyond Haruhi, but you get what I'm saying). That's all. That's the explanation that makes the most sense, and what do you know? It's the one that was given, too.

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Originally Posted by GMT View Post
Kyon seems to love the sound of his own voice. He just complains and complains and complains. Even when things are going his way, he's complaining about it.

Subconsciously, he loves what Haruhi does for him. It's why he spends all his time in the Yuki-verse obsessing over Haruhi. It's why he un-hesitatingly presses the EJECT button when presented with the opportunity. His conscious acknowledgment of what he subconsciously knows doesn't come until after he bailed out of the Yuki-verse and shortly before Yuki's backup plan comes gunning for him.
Right, but it's still subconscious. In other words, Yuki had no reason to believe that that was how he really felt, and no reason to create the new world to show him otherwise.

This is the second time you've seemed to think that characters know what the readers know, so let me assure you: That's not how stories work. If you assume otherwise, you completely destroy what a story is.

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And what I suggested was Yuki's reason for creating the Yuki-verse was to put an end to Kyon's career as the star of his own fantasy anime. There wouldn't have been a reason for Plan Asakura B if it was just to teach Kyon a lesson.
Well, she failed there. I'll have to check the exact wording when I get home from work, but I'm pretty sure at the end of Disappearance, Kyon says something like, "Now I'm fully ready to take the safety of the universe onto my own shoulders." He might have been the center of his own fantasy before, but he told himself he didn't want to be. Now he's in the center AND he's going to milk it for all it's worth.

EDIT: His quote, from the movie, was, "I suppose that puts me right in the middle of everything now...My time as an observing bystander is completely in the past now. I now stand alongside the other elites of the SOS Brigade as a protector of the world."
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Old 2010-12-09, 17:00   Link #3702
bayoab
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Originally Posted by Gamer_2k4 View Post
Okay, so we have three options (feel free to bring up more if they exist).
  1. Yuki has truly accumulated buggy data.
  2. Yuki is developing emotions.
  3. Yuki is trying to teach Kyon, "Be careful what you wish for."

Assuming that #1 is the case, then it's almost impossible to rule out E8, for two reasons. The first reason is that the endless looping of time was (likely) the most anomalous experience Yuki had in her time with Haruhi. For the utter uniqueness of the situation, it's not much of a stretch to say that that in itself was the cause of the errors.

However, there's a much more basic reason to assume E8 was the source of this buggy data: it's 600 years long! Assuming the errors were building up at a constant rate, over 99% of them would've happened during E8. And if the errors were started by an isolated event, the sheer magnitude of time Yuki spent in those two weeks almost precludes any other event as the source by simple probability.
Except you are assuming that E8 specifically causes the errors instead of there being another condition. Why does it take 4 months after E8 for her to break? Doesn't something else happen over and over and over in those 4 months? Remember, she does nothing during E8. She could easily have done something to fix it like she does almost every other time something goes wrong when she is supposed to just observe. However, this one rare time, she decides that she is going to sit back and do nothing and be an observer. She clearly can break it since she can sync data backwards across time. This alone would make this a non-inevitable event and thus, would mean it couldn't be the trigger since the trigger was inevitable.
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Old 2010-12-09, 22:09   Link #3703
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Originally Posted by Gamer_2k4 View Post
Endless Eight happened because HARUHI had more things to do before the summer could end. If there's no evidence to indicate that she wanted to do homework, it's because "I want to do homework with everyone!" is a flat-out stupid thing to think (not that stupid thoughts are in any way beyond Haruhi, but you get what I'm saying). That's all. That's the explanation that makes the most sense, and what do you know? It's the one that was given, too.
I would say that it wasn't homework per se that Haruhi wanted, but rather that she wanted one of the others (possibly Kyon) to suggest an activity, and it had to be something that Haruhi had never done/experienced before. She wanted THEM to bring something to the table, and not just follow her lead.

Quote:
Incidentally, since we're on the topic, how the heck does Yuki know that she'll recreate the world? Mikuru can't contact the future in E8 because there is literally NO FUTURE. What does Yuki synchronize with, then?
Yuki is not known to have synchronized with the future from within the E8 loop. However, "before" they entered E8, and "after" they exited E8, the future was accessible. This implies that the time loop did not actually exist until the SOS-dan reached it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GMT
(For example, Asakura's human interface turns out to be an overlay on an utterly alien intelligence. Attempting to kill Kyon to perturb Haruhi is a perfectly rational thing to do if one assigns a low value to the preservation of human life.)
What strikes me more about Asakura than the lack of value of human life is that she seems to have no concept whatsoever of self-preservation, whether of herself or of others. She shows neither fear nor sorrow at her own destruction, and she seems completely baffled that Kyon would wish to fight against dying when she tries to kill him. Also, her attempt to "provoke a reaction" from Haruhi implies that she is unconcerned about the possibility that Haruhi may simply write the IDSE completely out of existence as retaliation (the fact that Yuki essentially does this in Disappearance tells us that Haruhi could do so if she had motive to). It seems more like death in any and all forms is completely irrelevant to her, whether it be of herself or others. While the fact that Data Entities like herself can be restored from backup would certainly explain her unconcern for her own demise, she seems to wantonly ignore the possibility that restoration might become impossible (such as when she potentially risks the entire IDSE).
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Old 2010-12-11, 05:06   Link #3704
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anyone knows when full version of volume 10 is getting released? last i know it was due before the end of 2010... we're like 20 days away from that... but i dont think we're gonna get it this year...

P.S. someone should update the OP.
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Old 2010-12-12, 00:13   Link #3705
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Originally Posted by ijuinkun View Post
What strikes me more about Asakura than the lack of value of human life is that she seems to have no concept whatsoever of self-preservation, whether of herself or of others. She shows neither fear nor sorrow at her own destruction, and she seems completely baffled that Kyon would wish to fight against dying when she tries to kill him.... It seems more like death in any and all forms is completely irrelevant to her, whether it be of herself or others.... While the fact that Data Entities like herself can be restored from backup would certainly explain her unconcern for her own demise....
I have a funny feeling that it doesn't work like that. Rather, Asakura literally is an interface into this world and not THE actual being her/itself, like a remote controlled puppet-probe which the real intelligence controls from afar, so there wouldn't be a need (if her far true entity self indeed has such emotions) to fear death, no more than a puppet would of its strings being cut because it's not the puppeteer itself being clobbered. She hints something along these lines herself regarding Yuki while she's being beamed -- er, dissolved out of here. Death might not exist for non-corporeal beings who can store elements of their esscence into the very fabric of space and energy itself everywhere and any when, so to me Asakura didn't die. "Her" puppet on earth was just fired.

But I do take issue that Asakura has a homocidal mean streak. We must remember that the Data Entity is as far above us as we to the ants you crunch underfoot everytime you go out. What's THEIR life value to you? Arthur Clarke mentions that any entity that's tens of millions years beyond us is really going out of its way to want to watch and research us, and the fact that Asakura seems to've self-evolved in adapting to our level so much (past Nagato) is a credit to her colors. Asakura had her (seeming overzealous) faults, but hey, she developed vanity, pride and self-determination -- something none of the other alien girls seemed to've tried. It must be uber difficult for a hyper-being to ape a way lesser life form; how well do you think you can pass for a roach among roaches? Asakura's flaw was she became too ambitious strutting her developing independence (look at her drive, not her method) -- I dunno, maybe to score brownie points with the Big Kahuna upstairs, but it was creative self-initative regardless. Maybe clumsily so, but Asakura was on her way to becoming "human" and maybe that was way beyond her job resume. The Data Entity could've simply disarmed Asakura or pulled the plug on her powers or slapped her wrist, but instead they beam her up. Why? Was her self-evolving a bad example or a threat to someone? Just asking!

Anyway, I think hadn't Haruhi unwittingly seeded Asakura the idea of going after Kyon, Asakura might've continued to marinate in the human world with more human experiences and better exploring emotions and maybe even became curious about them enough to try dating guys and beyond, which really would've made her maybe the most interesting character in the story, so I guess she had to go.
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Old 2010-12-12, 10:15   Link #3706
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Originally Posted by B2-Lancer View Post
I have a funny feeling that it doesn't work like that. Rather, Asakura literally is an interface into this world and not THE actual being her/itself, like a remote controlled puppet-probe which the real intelligence controls from afar, so there wouldn't be a need (if her far true entity self indeed has such emotions) to fear death, no more than a puppet would of its strings being cut because it's not the puppeteer itself being clobbered. She hints something along these lines herself regarding Yuki while she's being beamed -- er, dissolved out of here. Death might not exist for non-corporeal beings who can store elements of their esscence into the very fabric of space and energy itself everywhere and any when, so to me Asakura didn't die. "Her" puppet on earth was just fired.

But I do take issue that Asakura has a homocidal mean streak. We must remember that the Data Entity is as far above us as we to the ants you crunch underfoot everytime you go out. What's THEIR life value to you? Arthur Clarke mentions that any entity that's tens of millions years beyond us is really going out of its way to want to watch and research us, and the fact that Asakura seems to've self-evolved in adapting to our level so much (past Nagato) is a credit to her colors. Asakura had her (seeming overzealous) faults, but hey, she developed vanity, pride and self-determination -- something none of the other alien girls seemed to've tried. It must be uber difficult for a hyper-being to ape a way lesser life form; how well do you think you can pass for a roach among roaches? Asakura's flaw was she became too ambitious strutting her developing independence (look at her drive, not her method) -- I dunno, maybe to score brownie points with the Big Kahuna upstairs, but it was creative self-initative regardless. Maybe clumsily so, but Asakura was on her way to becoming "human" and maybe that was way beyond her job resume. The Data Entity could've simply disarmed Asakura or pulled the plug on her powers or slapped her wrist, but instead they beam her up. Why? Was her self-evolving a bad example or a threat to someone? Just asking!

Anyway, I think hadn't Haruhi unwittingly seeded Asakura the idea of going after Kyon, Asakura might've continued to marinate in the human world with more human experiences and better exploring emotions and maybe even became curious about them enough to try dating guys and beyond, which really would've made her maybe the most interesting character in the story, so I guess she had to go.
If Asakura had understood human emotions she would have confessed to Kyon in class, in front of Haruhi, and kissed him. Given what happened when Haruhi saw Kyon and Mikuru later in the story, that would have been more that enough to set her off, and Yuki would not have been able to stop it.
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Old 2010-12-12, 23:45   Link #3707
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Still, I think that the most anomalous part of Asakura's actions is that she seems to be completely unable to comprehend that humans should devote any effort towards remaining alive, or have any instinct to do so, as evidenced by her confusion at Kyon's reluctance to be killed. Even bacteria do everything within their ability to stay alive when they detect a threat. As a result, instead of the expected reaction of "I want to kill you, so why won't you stay still so I can do it more easily?", her reaction is "Why don't you share my opinion that you should perish?", as though his desire to live was something unexpected.
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Old 2010-12-13, 11:20   Link #3708
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Still, I think that the most anomalous part of Asakura's actions is that she seems to be completely unable to comprehend that humans should devote any effort towards remaining alive, or have any instinct to do so, as evidenced by her confusion at Kyon's reluctance to be killed. Even bacteria do everything within their ability to stay alive when they detect a threat. As a result, instead of the expected reaction of "I want to kill you, so why won't you stay still so I can do it more easily?", her reaction is "Why don't you share my opinion that you should perish?", as though his desire to live was something unexpected.
She, being part of the Data Entity, can never die, only losing her body. It would be impossible for someone who is basically immortal to understand a human's desire to remain alive.

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Originally Posted by Gamer_2k4 View Post
Okay, so we have three options (feel free to bring up more if they exist).
  1. Yuki has truly accumulated buggy data.
  2. Yuki is developing emotions.
  3. Yuki is trying to teach Kyon, "Be careful what you wish for."
Actually, 1 and 2 are the same thing. The IDE has no understanding of human emotions so they are seen as buggy data. And Yuki is slowly becoming more human.
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Old 2010-12-13, 12:04   Link #3709
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Anyway, I think hadn't Haruhi unwittingly seeded Asakura the idea of going after Kyon, Asakura might've continued to marinate in the human world with more human experiences and better exploring emotions and maybe even became curious about them enough to try dating guys and beyond, which really would've made her maybe the most interesting character in the story, so I guess she had to go.
Well, that's not quite the correct way of looking at it. Asakura had to go, not because she had the potential to steal the stage, but because she was originally just a plot device so that Yuki could prove she was an alien. It's the same reason that we only ever encounter closed space in the first novel. I can't speak TOO far past Disappearance, but from what I've seen, Yuki's the only one of the three "specials" who has an active hand in anything now. You know why? Because her powers rival Haruhi's in their strength, while the abilities of the other two are much more mundane. Mikuru's a glorified cabbie now, and when was the last time Itsuki did anything worth mentioning?

All three characters were essentially equal in the first book. The showed up, they each played a role that Haruhi was searching for, and the each had their own way of proving to Kyon that they were what they said they were. From that perspective, Asakura was equivalent to the Celestials in terms of her role in the story. She didn't last any longer because she was never meant to last any longer. Heck, even her cameo in Disappearance was nearly a literal rehash of her first appearance, rather than anything truly new. (Yeah, yeah, she's protecting Yuki instead of fighting her, but that's more of a detail than anything else.)

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Actually, 1 and 2 are the same thing. The IDE has no understanding of human emotions so they are seen as buggy data. And Yuki is slowly becoming more human.
Well, there is a subtle difference, though I admit it may not apply here. Perhaps the best way to put it is that all emotions are anomalous behavior, but not all anomalous behavior can be chalked up to emotion.
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Old 2010-12-13, 14:05   Link #3710
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by ijuinkun View Post
Still, I think that the most anomalous part of Asakura's actions is that she seems to be completely unable to comprehend that humans should devote any effort towards remaining alive, or have any instinct to do so, as evidenced by her confusion at Kyon's reluctance to be killed. Even bacteria do everything within their ability to stay alive when they detect a threat. As a result, instead of the expected reaction of "I want to kill you, so why won't you stay still so I can do it more easily?", her reaction is "Why don't you share my opinion that you should perish?", as though his desire to live was something unexpected.
I always assumed that Asakura took her duty at face value; she was suppose to blend into human society, so she did. But unlike Yuki, who really only showed what little human emotions she could master in the time given to her, Asakura avoided learning about humans all together. Instead Asakura just mimics human emotions, using her advanced intelligence to determine what is considered socially well-accepted around her. But at no stage did she bothered to find out what the external expressions of a human are suppose to represent.

Asakura doesn't understand what smiling is for, nor does she care; she only knows that smiling makes her popular. So she kept smiling, all the time, even when trying to kill someone. I mean, why shouldn't she?

(That reminded me of a Gary Larson Cartoon of a Zoologist attempting to infiltrate a society of bears by wearing a bear body suit, for some strange reason...)
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Old 2010-12-13, 19:24   Link #3711
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I always assumed that Asakura took her duty at face value; she was suppose to blend into human society, so she did. But unlike Yuki, who really only showed what little human emotions she could master in the time given to her, Asakura avoided learning about humans all together. Instead Asakura just mimics human emotions, using her advanced intelligence to determine what is considered socially well-accepted around her. But at no stage did she bothered to find out what the external expressions of a human are suppose to represent.
At the stage where they bumped her off Asakura wasn't anywhere near her human potential, but she was far ahead of Yuki in already being familiar with the ground rules of human behavior and emotional responses; all she needed to do was to reflect and comprehend why so to flesh out her human potential. A.I. in fiction from "The Questor Tapes" to HAL 9000 build their own humanity/self-cognition by this "blueprint" route, rather than going cold turkey at it like Yuki's groping and fumbling and stumbling her way in the human wilderness, which was likely not even intended being she goes out of her way to be a wallflower. Given time, I think Asauka could've evolved into an interesting human being -- if she's her own "person" -- or even more fascinating, a reflection of her distant "true" alien self. In fact, we aren't all that sure just how automous these girls are -- after all they're supposedly much like remote-probe puppets, the human-world "interfaces" of entirely different beings (if they were truly automous beings why weren't they just called "agents" from the get-go?). When we see these "girls" act, we're really looking at the responses and reactions of their manipulative puppeteers light-years away. (I keep re-imagining "It Came From Space" where the beautiful lady in the evening gown is really the remote-control puppet of the awful-looking cyclops octo thing she really was...)

Maybe Asakura's "puppeteer" was trying to sneak his/its own agenda under the Data Entity's nose, or maybe so to not to get caught he/it simply let go of her reins to be a loose cannon doing his/its bidding. I have a feeling that this is a reason that makes logical sense why Asakura was beamed out of here instead of being de-powered and reprimanded. Asakura's "master puppetter" crossed some kind of line in the D.E. club and got yanked from messing in the human world -- also maybe for contaminating him/itself human traits and "primitive" thought? (like how the "Q" centure any of their own who assumes human qualities?) and hence Asakura's strings got cut -- assuming she hadn't already evolved being automous from her master by then before he/it cruelly cut her loose to face police-lady Yuki. To me it was overkill deleting Asakura from the human world instead of just pulling her powers and spanking her to toe the line - surely the D.E. had the power to do that than causing more undesired ripples of confusion and upset in her local human society by just making her vanish, so her puppeteer master must've committed one big no-no in the D.E. world.

Since I doubt the D.E. would've (if it had any sense) endowed any standalone "agent" with the awesome powers Asakura exhibited free on Earth -- and begging for misuse or a rouge, it kind of builds the case that she's indeed (at least mostly) the interface puppet of a being channeling powers to her before he/it got cannned by the D.E. Sure, I'd love to think Asakura had her "own mind" instead of just being plugged into another, but that'd explain a lot of her seemingly peculiar nonchalant reaction while getting dissolved -- and her telling "sour grapes" warning about Yuki to Kyon. At least Asakura's puppeteer had sass and daring and a rebel streak (I'd loved to've met that alien! And imagine if it learned to love a human via Asakura!), unlike Yuki's "puppeteer" being far more consevative using its/his human interface to pass the human world. So maybe when we stare into these D.E. babes' pretty eyes, are we really staring back periscope-like into the single eye of a octopoid thingie trying to learn the ropes of better infiltrating -- or bettering the human world? I'd love to know of all the draft concepts the author had of them! Yea, I wanna eat a Asakura manga!
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Old 2010-12-14, 05:40   Link #3712
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Asakura had to be removed completely because even depowered she would have continued to be a threat to Yuki's faction's goal of observing Haruhi's "natural" actions. Short of a mindwipe or an enforceable ban on interfering, even a depowered Asakura would still try to stir up reactions from Haruhi--after all, knifing Kyon requires no superhuman powers, only a little stealth.
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Old 2010-12-14, 11:13   Link #3713
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Interfaces

I don't think that Yuki and the other interfaces are like puppets. They are what we hope to achieve eventually with our probes when the AI is capable. They send data to and receive requests from the IDE, but they determine how to best fulfill those request. Asakura was likely just asked to stir up Haruhi and she decided that the best way was to kill Kyon. And we can get a glimpse into the way the Interfaces feel from Yuki's stories in "Editor-in-Chief★Straight Ahead!" It seems that they were created from the IDE, more like a disguise, like in Avatar, than a robot or puppet. She went from being a small anonymous part of the IDE to being an individual. Hence her name. Millions of snow flakes and every one is different. And, for her, returning to the IDE is the same as death as illustrated by the coffin in her last story.
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Old 2010-12-14, 11:42   Link #3714
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Originally Posted by PastPrime View Post
I don't think that Yuki and the other interfaces are like puppets. They are what we hope to achieve eventually with our probes when the AI is capable. They send data to and receive requests from the IDE, but they determine how to best fulfill those request. Asakura was likely just asked to stir up Haruhi and she decided that the best way was to kill Kyon. And we can get a glimpse into the way the Interfaces feel from Yuki's stories in "Editor-in-Chief★Straight Ahead!" It seems that they were created from the IDE, more like a disguise, like in Avatar, than a robot or puppet. She went from being a small anonymous part of the IDE to being an individual. Hence her name. Millions of snow flakes and every one is different. And, for her, returning to the IDE is the same as death as illustrated by the coffin in her last story.
AH! That made sense! I always wondered what the Coffin was about. You deserve a rep for that.
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Old 2010-12-16, 02:18   Link #3715
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Originally Posted by Wigwams View Post
anyone knows when full version of volume 10 is getting released? last i know it was due before the end of 2010... we're like 20 days away from that... but i dont think we're gonna get it this year...

P.S. someone should update the OP.
Your question got buried in the middle of what appears to be a great and storied debate, so I'll bump it as I'm curious too.

I'd also really like to know what Tanigawa Nagaru is thinking right now. He's got the goose that lays golden eggs at the tip of his pen, but doesn't seem interested in encouraging it to lay.
There must be some hidden drama with his publisher, or something that we're not party to.
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Old 2010-12-16, 03:44   Link #3716
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Originally Posted by philip72 View Post
Your question got buried in the middle of what appears to be a great and storied debate, so I'll bump it as I'm curious too.

I'd also really like to know what Tanigawa Nagaru is thinking right now. He's got the goose that lays golden eggs at the tip of his pen, but doesn't seem interested in encouraging it to lay.
There must be some hidden drama with his publisher, or something that we're not party to.
I'm having a feeling that this might be case, of course we'll probably never know.
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Old 2010-12-16, 06:11   Link #3717
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I'm not up to date on the news but does anyone else here expect that the Haruhi Movie will hint at he release date of the 10th Volume of the Haruhi books when the dvd/blu-ray comes out?
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Old 2010-12-16, 11:34   Link #3718
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Originally Posted by philip72 View Post
I'd also really like to know what Tanigawa Nagaru is thinking right now. He's got the goose that lays golden eggs at the tip of his pen, but doesn't seem interested in encouraging it to lay.
There must be some hidden drama with his publisher, or something that we're not party to.
I recently read an article very relevant to this question, and I think it may be worth posting here:
http://ferretbrain.com/articles/article-590

It ends rather unsatisfactorily, with the writer deciding that while it's the author's right to take his sweet time, it's the reader's right to expect him to get a move on. If nothing else, though, it's decent food for thought.

As for my own thoughts, let me assure you that writing can be very hard. My own writing experience suggests that writing is about 50% planning, 30% writing, and 20% editing. Furthermore, you get even less time to focus on those things when you're getting wrapped into being the creative consultant for an anime and a movie.

On the other hand, it's very hard for me to argue that Tanigawa is trying to nail the quality when he clearly didn't bother for some of the other stories. A lot of them are just "lolz randum normal event that haruhi makes wacky" (the baseball game, making the movie, the island getaway). The story that's generally considered the best of the series, Disappearance, is essentially a rehash of the original Melancholy (the major point being a god remaking the world but undoing it for Kyon, though other major similarities exist). The other stories that I've read are just lackluster. I also have a hard time believing that the delay is because Tanigawa is really working for a non-cliche, non-mundane ending, especially since that's never been the case in the past.

They say that good characters write themselves, which means it's rather telling that the story focus seems to be shifting away from Haruhi. (And don't tell me that people liking her proves she's a fantastic character; people like Bugs Bunny and his character development pretty much stopped at "What's up, doc?") But that's fine, right? As long as new challenges keep appearing, it's alright for the story to progress! Oh...but these new people are the anti-SOS Brigade. An alien, a time traveler, an esper, and a Haruhi. Cool story.

Okay, I seem to have drifted off into what probably sounds like malice to most people. But the truth is, I'm seriously worried that Tanigawa has written himself into a corner with his characters. When your original intent is a standalone novel, it can make continuous development very difficult. My full explanation for that is somewhere else, so let me just sum it up by saying that as Haruhi becomes less involved, so must the rest of the SOS Brigade. And the more frustrating thing is that instead of expanding the world in any meaningful way, he just copied what worked the first time! More aliens, espers, and time travelers? What about the demons and ghosts and sliders and whatever else Kyon said he didn't believe in?

Anyway, the TL;DR version: Tanigawa is taking as long as he is because his concepts and ideas are still rooted within the scope of a single light novel, and those are starting to be stretched to their limits. He released a teaser so that people would say, "Oh man, Yuki's out of commission? How's Tanigawa going to get them out of that one?"

And then Tanigawa sat back, looked what he had, and thought, "How's Tanigawa going to get them out of this one."
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Old 2010-12-16, 17:10   Link #3719
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Originally Posted by kniteowl View Post
I'm not up to date on the news but does anyone else here expect that the Haruhi Movie will hint at he release date of the 10th Volume of the Haruhi books when the dvd/blu-ray comes out?
Nope. Would have leaked already. When the website disappears in ~1.5 days though is a possibility.
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Old 2010-12-16, 17:27   Link #3720
quigonkenny
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamer_2k4 View Post
I recently read an article very relevant to this question, and I think it may be worth posting here:
http://ferretbrain.com/articles/article-590

It ends rather unsatisfactorily, with the writer deciding that while it's the author's right to take his sweet time, it's the reader's right to expect him to get a move on. If nothing else, though, it's decent food for thought.

As for my own thoughts, let me assure you that writing can be very hard. My own writing experience suggests that writing is about 50% planning, 30% writing, and 20% editing. Furthermore, you get even less time to focus on those things when you're getting wrapped into being the creative consultant for an anime and a movie.

On the other hand, it's very hard for me to argue that Tanigawa is trying to nail the quality when he clearly didn't bother for some of the other stories. A lot of them are just "lolz randum normal event that haruhi makes wacky" (the baseball game, making the movie, the island getaway). The story that's generally considered the best of the series, Disappearance, is essentially a rehash of the original Melancholy (the major point being a god remaking the world but undoing it for Kyon, though other major similarities exist). The other stories that I've read are just lackluster. I also have a hard time believing that the delay is because Tanigawa is really working for a non-cliche, non-mundane ending, especially since that's never been the case in the past.

They say that good characters write themselves, which means it's rather telling that the story focus seems to be shifting away from Haruhi. (And don't tell me that people liking her proves she's a fantastic character; people like Bugs Bunny and his character development pretty much stopped at "What's up, doc?") But that's fine, right? As long as new challenges keep appearing, it's alright for the story to progress! Oh...but these new people are the anti-SOS Brigade. An alien, a time traveler, an esper, and a Haruhi. Cool story.

Okay, I seem to have drifted off into what probably sounds like malice to most people. But the truth is, I'm seriously worried that Tanigawa has written himself into a corner with his characters. When your original intent is a standalone novel, it can make continuous development very difficult. My full explanation for that is somewhere else, so let me just sum it up by saying that as Haruhi becomes less involved, so must the rest of the SOS Brigade. And the more frustrating thing is that instead of expanding the world in any meaningful way, he just copied what worked the first time! More aliens, espers, and time travelers? What about the demons and ghosts and sliders and whatever else Kyon said he didn't believe in?

Anyway, the TL;DR version: Tanigawa is taking as long as he is because his concepts and ideas are still rooted within the scope of a single light novel, and those are starting to be stretched to their limits. He released a teaser so that people would say, "Oh man, Yuki's out of commission? How's Tanigawa going to get them out of that one?"

And then Tanigawa sat back, looked what he had, and thought, "How's Tanigawa going to get them out of this one."
Once again I wonder just what novels you've been reading. But I realize that it's most likely that you're just coming into it with a different perpective than most on this forum. Your assignment until 10 is released is to go back over this thread, as well as some of the original discussion threads (General Discussion, for instance), and maybe even some of the old Baka-Tsuki threads, if you can find them, to get an idea of the sheer scope of actual discussion this franchise has caused. Pages upon pages of speculations, character motivations, theories of the Haruhiverse, hidden hints and meanings, and delvings into philosophy, mathematics, and physics. Not just the rehashings and circular arguments we've seen so much of on this forum recently (although this is the internet, so there's some of that as well). Nothing so "cliche" or "mundane" could have created such an outpouring of real thought. I believe your relatively late entry into all this, in the latter days of the fairly shallow moe boom that Haruhi at least tangentially caused, may have colored your perspective. Things didn't start out so "one note" as they are with with the current moe franchises...
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