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Old 2010-12-16, 17:55   Link #3721
CrowKenobi
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Good point. He should start with The Ontology of Haruhi Suzumiya thread first.
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Old 2010-12-16, 18:11   Link #3722
Gamer_2k4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quigonkenny View Post
Your assignment until 10 is released is to go back over this thread, as well as some of the original discussion threads (General Discussion, for instance), and maybe even some of the old Baka-Tsuki threads, if you can find them, to get an idea of the sheer scope of actual discussion this franchise has caused. Nothing so "cliche" or "mundane" could have done so.
Okay, let me be honest with you here. I like the Suzumiya series a great deal, but I can't for the life of me figure out why. I understand the hype and the reaction and all that because I felt the same thing when I first watched the series (in broadcast order, completely in the dark about every single aspect of it). Part of me wonders if I'm searching for things to hate because the amount I follow the series (especially compared to other animes) borders on irrational. Part of me questions just why I like it so much.

I've given myself all sorts of answers, such as the artistic detail put into the anime, or the tight cast, or the pacing in the first novel, or the sudden realization that this was a science fiction anime instead of a high school comedy, or even that it's the only anime that I've followed while it was in progress, rather than watching the whole thing after the airing concluded.

I've given myself all sorts of counter-arguments, too. The closed time loops are ridiculous. There's enough blatant, gratuitous fanservice to tick me off. Haruhi is freaking crazy. No one wants to see a plot resolved with a homework session (an example of the "mundane" that I'm talking about). There are plenty of times when I've told my computer "No, that's...that's stupid." in the middle of an episode.

Watching the anime, especially the first time around, did impress me. Watching the second season and reading a couple of the novels did not. I can't explain my obsession (and consequently, I can't explain anyone else's either), so I feel quite a bit of dissonance that I have to justify with posts like the one above.
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Old 2010-12-16, 19:57   Link #3723
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Originally Posted by Gamer_2k4 View Post
Okay, let me be honest with you here. I like the Suzumiya series a great deal, but I can't for the life of me figure out why. I understand the hype and the reaction and all that because I felt the same thing when I first watched the series (in broadcast order, completely in the dark about every single aspect of it). Part of me wonders if I'm searching for things to hate because the amount I follow the series (especially compared to other animes) borders on irrational. Part of me questions just why I like it so much.

I've given myself all sorts of answers, such as the artistic detail put into the anime, or the tight cast, or the pacing in the first novel, or the sudden realization that this was a science fiction anime instead of a high school comedy, or even that it's the only anime that I've followed while it was in progress, rather than watching the whole thing after the airing concluded.

I've given myself all sorts of counter-arguments, too. The closed time loops are ridiculous. There's enough blatant, gratuitous fanservice to tick me off. Haruhi is freaking crazy. No one wants to see a plot resolved with a homework session (an example of the "mundane" that I'm talking about). There are plenty of times when I've told my computer "No, that's...that's stupid." in the middle of an episode.

Watching the anime, especially the first time around, did impress me. Watching the second season and reading a couple of the novels did not. I can't explain my obsession (and consequently, I can't explain anyone else's either), so I feel quite a bit of dissonance that I have to justify with posts like the one above.
I probably have spoilers in here somewhere so just to be safe . . .

Spoiler for Spoiler:


I'm not even sure if even I would read a whole thread but I'm generally known as lazy .
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Old 2010-12-16, 20:08   Link #3724
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Gamer_2k4 View Post
There's enough blatant, gratuitous fanservice to tick me off.
...Where?

If you think the fanservice in Haruhi is blatant and gratuitous you haven't seen any anime from the past three years.

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Originally Posted by Gamer_2k4 View Post
No one wants to see a plot resolved with a homework session (an example of the "mundane" that I'm talking about).
Actually, if you haven't noticed, one of the repeating themes, the formula if you will, is extraordinary problems being resolved by effectively mundane solutions.
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Old 2010-12-16, 22:38   Link #3725
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
...Where?

If you think the fanservice in Haruhi is blatant and gratuitous you haven't seen any anime from the past three years.
Personally, I simply don't like how something that's actually a serious crime is never used as anything more than a joke. The cosrape is easily the most disturbing part of the show for me, actually. It certainly has potential to be much more. Just imagine Mikuru developing into a yangire ready to knife up everyone she blames for her suffering. Or make what she goes through under Haruhi's hands something she thinks she needs to endure if her people, her culture, and her home are to be assured of existence. The cosrape could have, and should have, played a role in Mikuru's character development. (Which she doesn't receive much of, so...)

I'd have loved it if Tanigawa and Kyoto had portayed the cosrape as something that looked like fanservice on the surface, but was quite obviously horrifying and vicious. It wouldn't be hard. Darker background music, voice acting that sounds scared instead of high pitched (and cutesy), and somber facial expressions instead of bashful ones would be enough to transform those scenes from something amusing to something disturbing. Gunslinger Girls did something thematically similar with the concept of preadolescent girls-with-guns. The lives of the titular cyborgs are basically crap, with every cutesy or fanservicey moment being undercut with the reminder that these girls are armed killers who don't understand the reality of their actions. I would have loved to see the cosrape played out as fan disservice like that, instead of the genuine crap that's supposed to be arousing and funny.

On a completely unrelated note, I hated the fact that "Someday in the Rain" focused so much Mikuru being tortured. I don't like those scenes period, and I especially having roughly a third of an episode get consumed with cosrape. Just sayin'.
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Old 2010-12-16, 22:53   Link #3726
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Originally Posted by Gamer_2k4 View Post
I've given myself all sorts of counter-arguments, too. The closed time loops are ridiculous. There's enough blatant, gratuitous fanservice to tick me off. Haruhi is freaking crazy. No one wants to see a plot resolved with a homework session (an example of the "mundane" that I'm talking about). There are plenty of times when I've told my computer "No, that's...that's stupid." in the middle of an episode.
Looks to me like you're trying to find reasons not to like it. That's one of the few activities in this world where everyone finds universal success. The secret is in finding out why you're looking for problems.

Are you just overly critical? If so, I can't help you. You'll be doomed to a life of dissatisfaction, but at least if you keep to it, you're bound to find accomplishment (that you'll needlessly nitpick). ^_^

Are you buying the hater hype? There are plenty of people out there who actively rail against this series simply because people enjoy it. A number frequented this very forum, so you've no doubt heard their complaints, a number of which you share. Don't give a crap what they think. If you like it, you like it. Don't question it. There's too little good media out there as it is, and people care far too much about being thought of a certain way if they like certain things (says the guy with a Panty & Stocking avatar).

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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Actually, if you haven't noticed, one of the repeating themes, the formula if you will, is extraordinary problems being resolved by effectively mundane solutions.
They kind of have to, if you think about it. If every problem were solved by a knockdown dragout against a data entity, Haruhi wouldn't remain unaware of the Masquerade for very long, would she?

Far too much concern is shown for endings anyway. With Haruhi, at least for me, it's not the stories per se, or even the characters (although a few, like Tsuruya and Yuki, are effectively unique in the genre), it's the world in general, and that is expanded far more by the journey than by the destination. It's so open-ended and rich with possibility, that the possibilities are nearly limitless.
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Old 2010-12-17, 04:04   Link #3727
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by J the Drafter View Post
Personally, I simply don't like how something that's actually a serious crime is never used as anything more than a joke. The cosrape is easily the most disturbing part of the show for me, actually.
You need to lighten up. It's supposed to be amusing due to the sheer ridiculousness of the situation; it's completely unbelievable that anyone would actually act in the manner that Haruhi does, therefore, it's funny. It's the same reason Seinfeld isn't seen as horrifying, at least until the finale.

You're empathizing with Mikuru entirely too much, if you ask me.
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Old 2010-12-17, 12:59   Link #3728
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Lots of people to respond to here. That'll teach me for being controversial and then leaving the house.

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Originally Posted by Othello~ View Post
So you're saying you have a love/hate relationship with the series ? You probably like it so much because you hate it so much . . . and yet you like it . . . but then (yeah I'm just going in circles here). From what I read from you're earlier posts you seem to think a lot about the series and thinking about an anime or novel is a good thing I think (at least from my opinion from reading books and watching anime).
Actually, it's the other way around. I like it so much, which makes me think, "But nothing could be that good," so I pick it apart. The fact that I think so much about the series means little other than that it captured my attention. I'm simply overly analytical, and this just happens to be my latest target.

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And when you come across something "mundane" (like the homework ending of endless eight) that's only because you were expected something much more.
Well, yeah. The anime has so many instances of little things being played up (the effects when Yuki saved Kyon from Asakuru in the classroom, for example), that when the stories finally roll around to something of substance, you expect that to keep up. It doesn't.

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Originally Posted by Othello~ View Post
I sometimes think you go a little overboard though with your cynicism but everyone likes a cynic on the inside .
And I think cynicism isn't worth it if you don't go overboard.

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As for why Tanigawa isn't churning out new novels by the dozen. I agree with you on how writing is hard (planning is a killer for me and you said that it had to do with 50% of it ) but I'm not exactly sure about how he "copied" the first novel for his later stories.

<more text elaborating on how the series seems planned ahead>
Okay, just so I get this out of the way, here's how Disappearance is like Melancholy.

Spoiler for eh, just in case:


As for the novels and how they tie into each other, I have little doubt that Tanigawa's ideas expanded past his first book, at least to some degree. I understand that the baseball story was actually published before the first novel, so...sure, he had some ideas.

But at the same time, it's very easy to say, "Hey, wouldn't it be cool if Kyon was the one who drew those lines?" It's harder to turn ideas like that into real stories with substance. Furthermore, it doesn't hurt to have Haruhi wonder if she's met Kyon, so there's no risk and all kinds of reward for putting that line in.

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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
If you think the fanservice in Haruhi is blatant and gratuitous you haven't seen any anime from the past three years.
Fanservice doesn't have to be mind-numbingly excessive to be blatant and gratuitous. It's just things like the bunny girl outfits, or Mikuru being selected by Haruhi because she was the cutest person in the school, or Kyon opening the clubroom door to see Mikuru in her underwear. That stuff just isn't necessary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Actually, if you haven't noticed, one of the repeating themes, the formula if you will, is extraordinary problems being resolved by effectively mundane solutions.
Believe me, I have noticed. It's frustrating. The first climax, the one in MHS 6, gets a free pass because the situation itself was awesome, and the actual moment of (mundane) resolution was so brief that it didn't really matter. But pretty much every other situation (Disappearance being a notable exception, but hey, it's Melancholy's spiritual successor) gets all this buildup and then completely fails to deliver. That gets old.

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Originally Posted by quigonkenny View Post
Looks to me like you're trying to find reasons not to like it. That's one of the few activities in this world where everyone finds universal success. The secret is in finding out why you're looking for problems.

Are you just overly critical? If so, I can't help you. You'll be doomed to a life of dissatisfaction, but at least if you keep to it, you're bound to find accomplishment (that you'll needlessly nitpick). ^_^
I'm overly cynical; or rather, I have especially high standards. I guess that naturally leads to criticism, but, as I'll repeat below, I don't think much of criticism for its own sake. However, too often I see people rating something much higher than it deserves (nothing should be a perfect 10, in my opinion), so I feel the need to say something about it.

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Originally Posted by quigonkenny View Post
Are you buying the hater hype?
I can almost certainly assure you that I'm not. I do feel a good bit of backlash against things that are popular that shouldn't be (Twilight, for example), but I can't stand people who hate something just to hate it. But, on the flip side, I also can't stand people who like something because everyone else does, either. And I think it's because of that that I try to distance myself from the blind praise that things like this so often get.

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Originally Posted by quigonkenny View Post
They kind of have to [be mundane], if you think about it. If every problem were solved by a knockdown dragout against a data entity, Haruhi wouldn't remain unaware of the Masquerade for very long, would she?
Well, that's kind of why I said that the concept is being dragged out now. The "unknowing god" bit is a good concept for a single story, but after that, Haruhi's ignorance just starts becoming implausible (most notably, to me anyway, during Sigh). Writing yourself into a corner isn't a bad thing if you stop once you hit that corner (say, after the first book). However, it does become a problem once you have to build on it.

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Originally Posted by quigonkenny View Post
Far too much concern is shown for endings anyway. With Haruhi, at least for me, it's not the stories per se, or even the characters (although a few, like Tsuruya and Yuki, are effectively unique in the genre), it's the world in general, and that is expanded far more by the journey than by the destination. It's so open-ended and rich with possibility, that the possibilities are nearly limitless.
And I think that may be the key reason I keep coming back to the series. I care about the characters in a way that I never do with anything else, so I want to see what they'll do. Too often, it's the concept that pulls me into something, and this is a refreshing alternative. For example, I really liked the movie Inception, but I don't care one bit about what might happen with any of the characters once it concludes. On the other hand, I would look forward to each new episode of Frasier, because it was so heavily character-driven. I loved the characters and how they interacted with each other.

In the same way, I think (or rather, I know) the thing that keeps me coming back to this series is the characters. It doesn't hurt one bit that the animation studio put a good deal of effort into the CGI and music for the episodes, either. Consider The Day of Sagittarius. In the book, it's really nothing special at all. It's a plot device to show that Yuki can be interested in stuff. But in the anime, there are huge spaceship battles and lasers and explosions and symphonies. There's a similar disconnect between Live A Live. In the book, it's like, "Yeah, okay, Haruhi's singing for some band...I guess she's not a COMPLETE jerk." In the anime, it's one of the highlights of the entire series.

That's probably why I've never been impressed with the books; they just lack the immersion factor that the anime has. Therefore, it only makes sense that my criticism of the series gets heavier the further in I get, and that's why I think Tanigawa is an overrated author who got lucky with his first book and has been using the momentum to carry him ever since.
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Old 2010-12-17, 13:36   Link #3729
J the Drafter
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
You need to lighten up. It's supposed to be amusing due to the sheer ridiculousness of the situation; it's completely unbelievable that anyone would actually act in the manner that Haruhi does, therefore, it's funny. It's the same reason Seinfeld isn't seen as horrifying, at least until the finale.

You're empathizing with Mikuru entirely too much, if you ask me.
Well, I do feel empathy. Call it personal preference, but I just can't laugh at a joke with such a brutal setup.
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“Phantom: Requiem for the Phantom” and “Superman vs. the Elite”

(Mostly accurate dialogue, but with a little editing to make it mesh better.)
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Old 2010-12-17, 14:02   Link #3730
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I'm reminded of this kind of take to seriously attitude being applied by some fanfic writers for Love Hina. The slapstick violence directed at Keitaro where he's punted through a ceiling is suddenlly no longer harmless and funny, but very traumatic and serious buisness now.


I'm kinda getting the same vibe here.

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Originally Posted by Gamer_2k4 View Post
Fanservice doesn't have to be mind-numbingly excessive to be blatant and gratuitous. It's just things like the bunny girl outfits, or Mikuru being selected by Haruhi because she was the cutest person in the school, or Kyon opening the clubroom door to see Mikuru in her underwear. That stuff just isn't necessary.
Doesn't 95% of fanservice fall under that category? Would you kindly give me an example of sexual fanservice in a show that isn't at some level gratuitous?

If Haruhi's notably blatant/gratuitous, how exactly do we describe those more excessive fan service shows?

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Old 2010-12-17, 14:27   Link #3731
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Gamer_2k4 View Post
Fanservice doesn't have to be mind-numbingly excessive to be blatant and gratuitous. It's just things like the bunny girl outfits, or Mikuru being selected by Haruhi because she was the cutest person in the school, or Kyon opening the clubroom door to see Mikuru in her underwear. That stuff just isn't necessary.
You're sort of missing the point: The fanservice, especially in the first season, is there specifically BECAUSE Haruhi wants it to be there. That is why she kidnapped Mikuru in the first place, as you yourself have pointed out.

If you were to complain about the excessive service shots in Endless Eight, sure, I could understand. Not that those are anything near the level that other shows have done...
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Old 2010-12-17, 15:00   Link #3732
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Doesn't 95% of fanservice fall under that category? Would you kindly give me an example of sexual fanservice in a show that isn't at some level gratuitous?
Well, how about the plugsuits in Evangelion? There's no reason for them to be skintight except that it looks good. However, because it's not really blatant fanservice, you quickly ignore it. Or, for another example, it's all the carefully positioned camera angles in Code Geass that cross the line from innocuous fanservice to blatant fanservice.

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Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
If Haruhi's notably blatant/gratuitous, how exactly do we describe those more excessive fan service shows?
I never said it was notably gratuitous; I just said it was enough to tick me off. If I'm going to be seeing high school girls in bunny girl outfits, it should be because I'm looking for that sort of thing, not because someone decided to throw them in a show I'm watching.

Besides, what's more blatant then a character literally saying, "Mikuru, you're going to wear this bunny girl costume because that will attract attention."?

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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
You're sort of missing the point: The fanservice, especially in the first season, is there specifically BECAUSE Haruhi wants it to be there. That is why she kidnapped Mikuru in the first place, as you yourself have pointed out.
No, I get the point. But that just makes it worse, because not only are you providing fanservice which can't be considered anything BUT fanservice, but you're also raising a megaphone and saying, "YES, THIS IS FANSERVICE AND WE KNOW IT." Saying that fanservice is somehow more acceptable because it's being announced is just ridiculous. The author didn't have to make Haruhi that way, after all. There are plenty of ways to show that someone's crazy besides having them dress up and molest other characters.

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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
If you were to complain about the excessive service shots in Endless Eight, sure, I could understand. Not that those are anything near the level that other shows have done...
I thought about including an example from that as well, and, in retrospect, I probably should've. After all, that's essentially saying, "Yes, we know we're dragging this out way too long, so here's something to keep you interested in the meantime." It shouldn't have to come to that.
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Old 2010-12-17, 15:56   Link #3733
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*snip*
Why do you even watch anime if you hate fanservice that much? Why bother watching something you clearly hate?
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Old 2010-12-17, 16:17   Link #3734
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I think the few fanservice shots make sense in terms of the story. When I watched the show with freinds, they sometimes wondered why Kyon still stays with Haruhi and doesn't run away. The fanservice remind the viewer that Haruhi is a very attractive girl, so that we are reminded of Kyon's first intention why he started taliking to Haruhi. It's the same with Mikuru, why is Kyon so nice too her and? Becasue she's such a cute girl and she uses this power (or her superiors). I haven't read the books after Disappearance, so I don't know the future developments, but for me the few fanservice shots make sense even storywise. Don't forget that we are told the story by Kyon, a guy^^. Of course they could sometimes use less fanservice but they could use much more if this would be the mayor selling point of the show.

Regarding the "cosrape" scenes I also think that they are a little bit disturbing, but they make sense in the story. Haruhi is at the beginning of the series not very good with other people and simply thinks that everybody should be like her. She didn't seem to care if other people see her naked, so she thinks that Mikuru also shouldn't care about this. The viewer gets the idea that Haruhi's cosrapes and similar things are wrong and the stuff she does in Sigh shows her worst side, so these scenes work for me from a comedic standpoint and from a moral standpoint in the story.

We should never forget that this is a sci fi school comedy, which works quite well if we consider that the general idea that one of the main characters can change the whole world if she wants to, and I think it's very funny that the solutions are sometimes very mundane. It sometimes more like a parody on normal stories with big and larger than live climaxes. Especially Somewhere in the Rain in chronological order of the anime is such perfect ending for a series that probably wasn't planned to be continued later.
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Old 2010-12-17, 16:23   Link #3735
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Why do you even watch anime if you hate fanservice that much? Why bother watching something you clearly hate?
So hey, have you ever noticed that media, such as movies and TV shows, often have many aspects to them? In fact, have you noticed how pretty much anything in the entire world is multi-faceted, with good things, bad things, and all sorts of qualities and attributes?

Well surprise, surprise, this anime is no different.

See, anime, or really, any piece of media, is composed of many, many parts. There's the plot, which defines the path that the story will take. There are the characters, who walk along that path. There are dialogue and narration style, which form the interface between the first two elements and the viewer. And finally, there are the visual and aural aspects, which complete the experience for the viewer.

Now, I've already said earlier that I don't believe any work is perfect. That means (don't get lost here), that those same works all have at least one shortcoming, and probably many, many more!

So what is a viewer to do? Should they refuse contact with any media whatsoever, so that nothing tarnishes the perfection of such a vacuum? Now, as you quite clearly realize, that's a very, VERY valid option, and I understand your incredulity that I haven't taken that route.

But suppose, just for a second, that a viewer realized that such imperfections are largely masked by all of the well-done, redeeming qualities of the work. Maybe, just maybe, in such a world, we could still watch and appreciate an anime, even if there were things we disliked about it! Maybe the experience isn't as good as it could have been, but it would still be better than nothing?

Wow. What a world that could be.
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Old 2010-12-17, 17:19   Link #3736
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Gamer_2k4 View Post
*snip*
If you like the work in spite of its flaws, why spend all your time talking about said flaws? It makes you seem as though you hate, rather than like, the work in question.

It's fine to say negative things about something you like, but when this is nearly all you say...
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Old 2010-12-18, 03:43   Link #3737
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Originally Posted by Gamer_2k4 View Post
Well, how about the plugsuits in Evangelion? There's no reason for them to be skintight except that it looks good. However, because it's not really blatant fanservice, you quickly ignore it. Or, for another example, it's all the carefully positioned camera angles in Code Geass that cross the line from innocuous fanservice to blatant fanservice....
I don't think I really get what you're trying to say here. Are you suggesting that you wouldn't have complained about the fanservice if it was more "subtle"? Is your problem with the fanservice or with how "blatant" it is?

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Originally Posted by Gamer_2k4 View Post
...The author didn't have to make Haruhi that way, after all. There are plenty of ways to show that someone's crazy besides having them dress up and molest other characters....
Yeah he didn't, and yeah there are plenty of other ways. But why exactly would using this way somehow be inferior to the using others? Because it might offend a few people (and attract a few )? But those would just be byproducts, and even if the intention was to go for fanservice, does it make the method any less valid in practice?

TMSIDR here summed up nicely how I personally see it:
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Originally Posted by TMSIDR View Post
The viewer gets the idea that Haruhi's cosrapes and similar things are wrong and the stuff she does in Sigh shows her worst side, so these scenes work for me from a comedic standpoint and from a moral standpoint in the story.
Except for me it was never really funny, but most certainly not repulsive.

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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
If you like the work in spite of its flaws, why spend all your time talking about said flaws? It makes you seem as though you hate, rather than like, the work in question.

It's fine to say negative things about something you like, but when this is nearly all you say...
To be fair though, Game_2k4 did say he doesn't know exactly why he likes this thing, so I guess the only logical alternative is to talk about what he dislikes about it instead.
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Old 2010-12-18, 21:03   Link #3738
bayoab
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Quote:
12月27日発売のザスニーカーでハルヒの重大発表あり!アニスパより
Major Haruhi announcement in the 12/27 on sale issue of The Sneaker. (In this thread since The Sneaker is normally novel related.)
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Old 2010-12-18, 23:37   Link #3739
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bayoab View Post
Major Haruhi announcement in the 12/27 on sale issue of The Sneaker. (In this thread since The Sneaker is normally novel related.)
I agree that it's probably novel-related as Kadokawa Publishing's president tweeted the announcement as well.

Edit: Don't bother asking Hirano about it. She doesn't know anything.
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Last edited by ultimatemegax; 2010-12-19 at 00:39.
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Old 2010-12-19, 08:54   Link #3740
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Originally Posted by Eater of All View Post
I don't think I really get what you're trying to say here. Are you suggesting that you wouldn't have complained about the fanservice if it was more "subtle"? Is your problem with the fanservice or with how "blatant" it is?
That seems kinda oxymoronic. Isn't fan service almost universally blatant?
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